• "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> Dec 14 2012

"H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:

On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 07:27:26PM +0100, Rob T wrote:
 I created a D library wrapper for sqlite3 that uses a dynamically
 constructed result list for returned records from a SELECT
 statement. It works in a similar way to a C++ version that I wrote a
 while back.


Hmm, I seem to have heard wind of an existing D sqlite3 wrapper
somewhere, but that may have been D1/Tango, I'm not sure.


[...]
 I remembered reading about people having performance problems with
 the GC, so I tried a quick fix, which was to disable the GC before
 the SELECT is run and re-enable afterwards. The result of doing that
 was a 3x performance boost, making the DMD compiled version run
 almost as fast as the C++ version. The DMD compiled version is now
 only 2 seconds slower on my stress test runs of a SELECT that
 returns 200,000+ records with 14 fields. Not too bad! I may get
 identical performance if I compile using gdc, but that will have to
 wait until it is updated to 2.061.
 
 Fixing this was a major relief since the code is expected to be used
 in a commercial setting. I'm wondering though, why the GC causes
 such a large penalty, and what negative effect if any if there will
 be when disabling the GC temporarily. I know that memory won't be
 reclaimed until the GC is re-enabled, but is there anything else to
 worry about?


AFAIK, it should be safe to disable the GC during that time as long as
you're aware of the possibility of running out of memory in the interim.

But there's also the issue that a good, enterprise-quality GC is very
VERY hard to write, and especially hard for a language like D which
allows you to do system-level stuff like pointer casting and unions
(though thanks to its advanced features you rarely need to do such
things). This forces the GC to be conservative, which complicates it and
also affects its performance. The difficulty of the task made it so that
our current GC does leave much to be desired.

However, there's been talk of a (semi-)precise GC in the works, so
hopefully we'll start getting a better GC in the near future.


[...]
 Coming from C++ I *really* did not like having the GC, it made me
 very nervous, but now that I'm used to having it, I've come to like
 having it up to a point. It really does change the way you think and
 code. However as I've discovered, you still have to always be
 thinking about memory management issues because the GC can eat up a
 huge performance penalty under certain situations. I also NEED to
 know that I can always go full manual where necessary. There's no
 way I would want to give up that kind of control.


Totally understand what you mean. I also came from C/C++, and the fact
that D relies on a GC actually put me off trying out D for some time. It
took me a while before being convinced to at least give it a try. There
was a particular article that convinced me, but I can't recall which one
it was right now.

Basically, the point was that having a GC frees up your mind from having
to constantly worry about memory management issues, and actually think
about the actual algorithm you're working on. It also eliminates memory
leakage that comes from careless coding -- which happens all too often
in C/C++, as shown in my day job where we're constantly chasing down
memory leak bugs. We're all human, after all, and prone to slip-ups
every now and then. All it takes is a single slip, and your app will
eventually eat up all memory and bring down the system. Usually on the
customer's live environment, which is really the only place where your
code actually runs for sufficiently long periods of time for the bug to
show up (QA theoretically is supposed to test this, but doesn't have
that luxury due to release deadlines).

After having gotten used to D and its GC, I have to say that my coding
is much more efficient. I tend to use string operations quite often, and
it's quite a big relief to not have to constantly worry about managing
memory for the strings manually. (String manipulation is a royal pain in
C/C++, so much so that sometimes I resort to Perl to get the job done.)

Having said that, though, I agree that there *are* times when you want
to, and *need* to, manage memory manually. A GC relieves you of manual
memory management for the general case, but when optimizing the hotspots
in your code, nothing beats a hand-crafted manual memory management
scheme designed specifically for what you're doing. For that, D does let
you call the C library's malloc() and free() yourself, and manage the
pointers manually. You can then use Phobos' emplace function to create D
objects in your manually-allocated memory blocks, and thus still enjoy
some of D's advanced features to an extent.

You can, of course, also temporarily turn off the GC during
time-sensitive points where you don't want a collection cycle to start
on you.


[...]
 What I have not yet had the opportunity to explore, is using D in
 full manual memory management mode. My understanding is that if I
 take that route, then I cannot use certain parts of the std lib, and
 will also loose a few of the nice features of D that make it fun to
 work with. I'm not fully clear though on what to expect, so if
 there's any detailed information to look at, it would be a big help.


You could ask Manu, who IIRC uses full manual memory management in D. Or
search the forums for using D without the GC -- I think somebody has
posted the details before.


 I wonder what can be done to allow a programmer to go fully manual,
 while not loosing any of the nice features of D?



I don't think you'll be able to get 100% of D's features without a GC.
Some features are simply too complicated to implement otherwise, such as
array slicing + free appending. Hopefully more of D will be usable once
Andrei (or whoever it was) works out the custom allocators design for
Phobos.

I think as of right now, the functions in std.range and std.algorithm
should all be GC-free, as long as you don't use things like delegates.
(I believe Jonathan has said that if any std.range or std.algorithm
functions have implicit memory allocation, it should be considered as a
bug.)


On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 08:24:38PM +0100, Rob T wrote:
 On Friday, 14 December 2012 at 18:46:52 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:


I avoid using the GC when using D and I feel like I still have a
lot of freedom of expression, but maybe I'm just used to it.


 I'd like to do that too and wish I had your experience with how you
 are going about it. My fear is that I'll end up allocating without
 knowing and having my apps silently eat up memory over time.
 
 At the end of the day, there's just no point in having a GC if you
 don't want to use it, so the big question is if a GC can be made to
 work much better than what we have? Supposedly yes, but will the
 improvements really matter? I somehow doubt it will.


For me, one big plus with the GC is that I can actually concentrate on
improving my algorithms instead of being bogged down constantly by
memory management issues. I think that has led me to write much better
code than when I was coding in C/C++. It has also eliminated those
annoying pointer bugs and memory leaks, and the countless hours spent
debugging them.

But, as with anything worthwhile in programming, the GC comes with a
cost, so sometimes you will suffer from performance degradation. But
like I said in another thread, your program's hotspots are often not
where you think they are; you need actual profiling to figure out where
the performance problems are. Once you locate those, you can apply some
workarounds like temporarily disable the GC, or switch to manual memory
management, etc.. I don't think GCs will ever get to the point where
they will be both maximally-performant *and* not require any effort from
the programmer. There are only two ways to implement that, and only the
third one works. :-P


 When I look at GC based apps, what they all seem to have in common,
 is that they tend to eat up vast amounts of RAM for nothing and
 perform poorly. I'm speaking mostly about Java apps, they are
 terrible with performance and memory foot print in general. But also
 C++ apps that use built in GC tend to have similar issues.


If you're worried about performance, you might want to consider using
GDC or LDC. IME, GDC consistently produces D executables that are at
least 20-30% faster than what DMD produces, simply because GCC has a far
more advanced optimization framework in its backend. Sometimes it can be
40-50% faster, though YMMV.


 It may be that the GC concept works far better in theory than in
 practice, although due to the performance penalty work-a-rounds, you
 may end up writing better performing apps because of it, however
 that's NOT the intention of having a GC!



Well, everything comes at a cost. :-) The GC lets you develop programs
faster with less pain (and virtually no memory-related bugs), but you
have to pay in performance. Manual memory management lets you maximize
performance, but then you have to pay in countless headaches over
finding pointer bugs and memory leaks. You can't have both. :) (Unless
it's both bad performance *and* pointer bug headaches. :-P)

A good middle ground is to use the GC for the common cases where
performance isn't important, and optimize with manual memory management
in your hotspots where performance matters. (And make sure you profile
before you do anything, 'cos like I said, your hotspots often aren't
where you think they are. I learnt that the hard way.)


T

-- 
Why do conspiracy theories always come from the same people??