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D - Propose for an ACTUAL FORUM

reply DrakeX <DrakeX_member pathlink.com> writes:
i know a lot of people here are probably lifetime linux/unix users who are used
to newsgroups like this but for me it's just.... counter-intuitive.  it's
practically impossible to find anything in a text list of links, not to mention
virtually impossible to navigate through a thread (slow on a modem and with all
these people quoting others it's hard to follow).  

what say we have an actual forum like YaBB?  or phpBB?
Sep 21 2003
next sibling parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bklnih$244n$1 digitaldaemon.com>, DrakeX says...
i know a lot of people here are probably lifetime linux/unix users who are used
to newsgroups like this but for me it's just.... counter-intuitive.  it's
practically impossible to find anything in a text list of links, not to mention
virtually impossible to navigate through a thread (slow on a modem and with all
these people quoting others it's hard to follow).  

what say we have an actual forum like YaBB?  or phpBB?

Are you using just the web from end? try using you news client application on the server news.digitalmars.com Ant ############## original message, before counting to 10 ;) ####### Your are mistaken, 1) You are probably refering to the web from end of the forum. set your news client application (you do have them on windows don't you?) to the digital mars new server at news.digitalmars.com 2) linux/unix users don't do things the hard way.
Sep 21 2003
parent reply DrakeX <DrakeX_member pathlink.com> writes:
"you do have them on windows don't you?"

no i don't believe we do..

"linux/unix users don't do things the hard way."

hehe, yes you do :)
Sep 22 2003
next sibling parent reply John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> writes:
DrakeX wrote:
 "you do have them on windows don't you?"
 
 no i don't believe we do..
 

You are kidding, right??? Of course windows has newsgroup clients! Thunderbird Outlook Express Netscape Messenger Mozilla Email Gravity The Digitalmars site even tells you how to setup common windows newsgroup clients for news.digitalmars.com: http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html Later, John
Sep 22 2003
parent reply DrakeX <DrakeX_member pathlink.com> writes:
You are kidding, right??? Of course windows has newsgroup clients!

to tell you the truth i never have had to use one... i didn't think newsgroups still existed until i found this place!
Sep 22 2003
parent reply John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> writes:
DrakeX wrote:
You are kidding, right??? Of course windows has newsgroup clients!

to tell you the truth i never have had to use one... i didn't think newsgroups still existed until i found this place!

Ahha! You have been denied the experience of newsgroups and NNTP, an important chapter of internet history! :-D A lot of these old unix protocols are still alive and very well on the internet, despite the availability of slicker options. They're tried, true, and available on almost any platform that connects to the internet.
Sep 22 2003
parent "DrakeX" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
interesting..!
Sep 22 2003
prev sibling parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bknmco$2c5m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, DrakeX says...
"you do have them on windows don't you?"

no i don't believe we do..

Yes you do, are you trying to keep me on the "bad" systems?
"linux/unix users don't do things the hard way."

hehe, yes you do :)

You know, this w2k thing doesnít look too bad (as a workstation, even if it's limited compared to my linux box), but I was hit by a windows when I was a child... (Actually several: 3.0, 3.1, 3.11,9x) Iím gonna need some heavy psychotherapy to recover... ;) Ant
Sep 22 2003
parent reply "Charles Sanders" <sanders-consulting comcast.net> writes:
win2k with cygwin == awesome.  I still keep a linux box around but for a
desktop win2k has won my heart ;)

Charles

"Ant" <Ant_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bknog9$2jbp$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bknmco$2c5m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, DrakeX says...
"you do have them on windows don't you?"

no i don't believe we do..

Yes you do, are you trying to keep me on the "bad" systems?
"linux/unix users don't do things the hard way."

hehe, yes you do :)

You know, this w2k thing doesn't look too bad (as a workstation, even if it's limited compared to my linux box), but I was hit by a windows when I was a child... (Actually several: 3.0, 3.1, 3.11,9x) I'm gonna need some heavy psychotherapy to recover... ;) Ant

Sep 22 2003
parent reply Charles Hixson <charleshixsn earthlink.net> writes:
Charles Sanders wrote:
 win2k with cygwin == awesome.  I still keep a linux box around but for a
 desktop win2k has won my heart ;)
 
 Charles
 ...

Please read the EULA. I don't for certain know that the win2k EULA is unlivewithable, but I've seen snippets of the XP? XT? version, and I won't allow it in my home. And I've seen representations that some of the security patches came with clauses that retrofitted the win2k license to be just as bad. The EULA is my original reason for fleeing MSWindows. It took me six months before I had a useable system (this was a few years ago), and I still considered it time well spent. These days...I'll generally reccommend that you hire someone else if you want work done with MS. And I surely won't install it. (Well, I can accept the Win95 and Win98 licenses. They're not too bad.) Sometimes technical slickness doesn't suffice. Fortunately, MS is losing out even on that end. (If you don't think so, check our a system configured to look like a MSWind system...Linux does it without any problem. But most people don't care for the costs over more than the short term. [You might look at a Lycoris box, or a Xandros one...their software tends to be a bit behind the curve, but their graphics make you think it's windows {this is a plus?}.])
Sep 26 2003
parent reply jhenzie mac.com writes:
Keep it to D boys otherwise I am going to have to get on my OS X soap box, oops
slipped.

Actually as an aside I think OS X is a great target for D and here's why.

THe CARBON API is C based making it absolutely suitable for D.  The 'Modern'
application frameworks use Objective-C.  A phenominal language that is used by
Apple and GNUStep. [Objective-c retain].

Many of the die-hard mac people, that is not NeXT, are very wary of Objective-C,
poor souls, and are continuing to develop C/C++ based Apps.  From my limited
experience with D I believe it can match the performance of C++ and  eclipse the
performance of COCOA java and Objective-C.

From that perspective if it was runing on the platform someone at Apple might be
persuaded to build a small CARBON / Core foundation application in D to show to
Avie and Steve.

Faced with a small, fast, somwhat dynamic, language that simplifies development,
offers many of the advantages of java, at least form Apple application
development perpective, without the overhead and startup cost may be of great
interest to a company know for its innovation and its penchant for bucking the
trend.

Anyway back to the real world.

In article <bl26r6$2b0o$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Charles Hixson says...
Charles Sanders wrote:
 win2k with cygwin == awesome.  I still keep a linux box around but for a
 desktop win2k has won my heart ;)
 
 Charles
 ...

Please read the EULA. I don't for certain know that the win2k EULA is unlivewithable, but I've seen snippets of the XP? XT? version, and I won't allow it in my home. And I've seen representations that some of the security patches came with clauses that retrofitted the win2k license to be just as bad. The EULA is my original reason for fleeing MSWindows. It took me six months before I had a useable system (this was a few years ago), and I still considered it time well spent. These days...I'll generally reccommend that you hire someone else if you want work done with MS. And I surely won't install it. (Well, I can accept the Win95 and Win98 licenses. They're not too bad.) Sometimes technical slickness doesn't suffice. Fortunately, MS is losing out even on that end. (If you don't think so, check our a system configured to look like a MSWind system...Linux does it without any problem. But most people don't care for the costs over more than the short term. [You might look at a Lycoris box, or a Xandros one...their software tends to be a bit behind the curve, but their graphics make you think it's windows {this is a plus?}.])

Sep 26 2003
next sibling parent reply "Matthew Wilson" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
That'd be great.

However, in my somewhat limited experience, Mac are about the least helpful
and open company I've come across: in my writing and STLSoft (and other)
projects I've had help from most of the big companies, but Mac totally
ignored any approaches and have shown no interest whatsoever. Their loss, I
guess, and I'm sure this lack of care about publicity (potentially good
publicity, anyway) has got nothing to do with their preeminent position in
the computer industry today. :/


-- 
Matthew Wilson

STLSoft moderator and C++ monomaniac       (http://www.stlsoft.org)
Contributing editor, C/C++ Users Journal
(www.synesis.com.au/articles.html#columns)

"You can tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much!" -- Uncle Michael

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


<jhenzie mac.com> wrote in message news:bl2k90$2tkd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Keep it to D boys otherwise I am going to have to get on my OS X soap box,

 slipped.

 Actually as an aside I think OS X is a great target for D and here's why.

 THe CARBON API is C based making it absolutely suitable for D.  The

 application frameworks use Objective-C.  A phenominal language that is

 Apple and GNUStep. [Objective-c retain].

 Many of the die-hard mac people, that is not NeXT, are very wary of

 poor souls, and are continuing to develop C/C++ based Apps.  From my

 experience with D I believe it can match the performance of C++ and

 performance of COCOA java and Objective-C.

 From that perspective if it was runing on the platform someone at Apple

 persuaded to build a small CARBON / Core foundation application in D to

 Avie and Steve.

 Faced with a small, fast, somwhat dynamic, language that simplifies

 offers many of the advantages of java, at least form Apple application
 development perpective, without the overhead and startup cost may be of

 interest to a company know for its innovation and its penchant for bucking

 trend.

 Anyway back to the real world.

 In article <bl26r6$2b0o$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Charles Hixson says...
Charles Sanders wrote:
 win2k with cygwin == awesome.  I still keep a linux box around but for



 desktop win2k has won my heart ;)

 Charles
 ...

Please read the EULA. I don't for certain know that the win2k EULA is unlivewithable, but I've seen snippets of the XP? XT? version, and I won't allow it in my home. And I've seen representations that some of the security patches came with clauses that retrofitted the win2k license to be just as bad. The EULA is my original reason for fleeing MSWindows. It took me six months before I had a useable system (this was a few years ago), and I still considered it time well spent. These days...I'll generally reccommend that you hire someone else if you want work done with MS. And I surely won't install it. (Well, I can accept the Win95 and Win98 licenses. They're not too bad.) Sometimes technical slickness doesn't suffice. Fortunately, MS is losing out even on that end. (If you don't think so, check our a system configured to look like a MSWind system...Linux does it without any problem. But most people don't care for the costs over more than the short term. [You might look at a Lycoris box, or a Xandros one...their software tends to be a bit behind the curve, but their graphics make you think it's windows {this is a plus?}.])


Sep 26 2003
parent reply jhenzie mac.com writes:
See all, hear all, say nowt.

Eat all, drink all, pay nowt

and if ever tha' does owt for nowt, allus do it for thisen

Apple can be tough to approach, they have some incredible engineers, Steve
Nairoff. and Avie T for 
example.  But put a bunch of brilliant people together and you tend to end up
with a fairly 
abrasive, some might say, arrogant persona.

With regard to STLSoft, you have to accept certain fundamentals about apple.
C++ is not really 
their bag, C and Objective-C for the most part, C++ has its place and advocates
in the company 
but to my mind they think of it as a language they have to support, thus  C++ is
not really going 
to appeal to them although there are some rumblings. <smile/>, don't take it
personally.

With D that might be different, especially as its something they know little or
nothing about, 
particulally if it can be demostrated that D provides the developer productivity
of Java and C# with 
the speed and flexibility of C++, they could be a phenominal ally in developing
this beast, 
particulally woth regards to GCC on PPC.

Clearly windows and linux are the core platforms, but to restrict the language
to x86 guarantees 
that it will never reach its full potential.  PPC and Sparc are the obvious
choices and Apple is the 
type of company that would appreciate the capabilities of D.

Its a tough time for a new language, mediocre engineers and outsourcing have
made Java and C# 
extremely popular.  For D to be successful it needs to not only compete with
Java and C# but blow 
them away. My limited exposure makes me think that it can, especially if it can
avoid bloat.  
Finding opportunities that let D shine are key.  Apple has a phenoinal but non
mainstream languge 
in Objective-C.  Java is a poor substitute but is improving, legions of Mac
Developers are 
accustomed to C++, give them something that is not too unfamiliar but enhances
their 
productivity and you have found your niche.

Cheers

Justin

In article <bl3609$j9p$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew Wilson says...
That'd be great.

However, in my somewhat limited experience, Mac are about the least helpful
and open company I've come across: in my writing and STLSoft (and other)
projects I've had help from most of the big companies, but Mac totally
ignored any approaches and have shown no interest whatsoever. Their loss, I
guess, and I'm sure this lack of care about publicity (potentially good
publicity, anyway) has got nothing to do with their preeminent position in
the computer industry today. :/


-- 
Matthew Wilson

STLSoft moderator and C++ monomaniac       (http://www.stlsoft.org)
Contributing editor, C/C++ Users Journal
(www.synesis.com.au/articles.html#columns)

"You can tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much!" -- Uncle Michael

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


<jhenzie mac.com> wrote in message news:bl2k90$2tkd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Keep it to D boys otherwise I am going to have to get on my OS X soap box,

 slipped.

 Actually as an aside I think OS X is a great target for D and here's why.

 THe CARBON API is C based making it absolutely suitable for D.  The

 application frameworks use Objective-C.  A phenominal language that is

 Apple and GNUStep. [Objective-c retain].

 Many of the die-hard mac people, that is not NeXT, are very wary of

 poor souls, and are continuing to develop C/C++ based Apps.  From my

 experience with D I believe it can match the performance of C++ and

 performance of COCOA java and Objective-C.

 From that perspective if it was runing on the platform someone at Apple

 persuaded to build a small CARBON / Core foundation application in D to

 Avie and Steve.

 Faced with a small, fast, somwhat dynamic, language that simplifies

 offers many of the advantages of java, at least form Apple application
 development perpective, without the overhead and startup cost may be of

 interest to a company know for its innovation and its penchant for bucking

 trend.

 Anyway back to the real world.

 In article <bl26r6$2b0o$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Charles Hixson says...
Charles Sanders wrote:
 win2k with cygwin == awesome.  I still keep a linux box around but for



 desktop win2k has won my heart ;)

 Charles
 ...

Please read the EULA. I don't for certain know that the win2k EULA is unlivewithable, but I've seen snippets of the XP? XT? version, and I won't allow it in my home. And I've seen representations that some of the security patches came with clauses that retrofitted the win2k license to be just as bad. The EULA is my original reason for fleeing MSWindows. It took me six months before I had a useable system (this was a few years ago), and I still considered it time well spent. These days...I'll generally reccommend that you hire someone else if you want work done with MS. And I surely won't install it. (Well, I can accept the Win95 and Win98 licenses. They're not too bad.) Sometimes technical slickness doesn't suffice. Fortunately, MS is losing out even on that end. (If you don't think so, check our a system configured to look like a MSWind system...Linux does it without any problem. But most people don't care for the costs over more than the short term. [You might look at a Lycoris box, or a Xandros one...their software tends to be a bit behind the curve, but their graphics make you think it's windows {this is a plus?}.])



Sep 26 2003
parent reply "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
<jhenzie mac.com> wrote in message news:bl39od$nrr$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 With D that might be different, especially as its something they know

 nothing about,
 particulally if it can be demostrated that D provides the developer

 of Java and C# with
 the speed and flexibility of C++, they could be a phenominal ally in

 this beast,
 particulally woth regards to GCC on PPC.

I've been intrigued by claims of Python being a very productive language to write apps. (The downside of Python is the slow runtime performance.) Just for fun I've tried porting some Python code to D. It goes pretty easy, which leads me to suspect that writing D can be almost as productive as writing Python, but with the performance of C++ at runtime.
Dec 09 2003
parent reply "Matthew Wilson" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:
I would think that would be broadly true, if/when D has tuples, or a
suitable (perhaps DTL) alternative.

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:br5ik7$10i9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 <jhenzie mac.com> wrote in message news:bl39od$nrr$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 With D that might be different, especially as its something they know

 nothing about,
 particulally if it can be demostrated that D provides the developer

 of Java and C# with
 the speed and flexibility of C++, they could be a phenominal ally in

 this beast,
 particulally woth regards to GCC on PPC.

I've been intrigued by claims of Python being a very productive language

 write apps. (The downside of Python is the slow runtime performance.) Just
 for fun I've tried porting some Python code to D. It goes pretty easy,

 leads me to suspect that writing D can be almost as productive as writing
 Python, but with the performance of C++ at runtime.

Dec 09 2003
parent reply Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <br5jqs$12j4$3 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew Wilson says...
I would think that would be broadly true, if/when D has tuples, or a
suitable (perhaps DTL) alternative.

I think this could be a library thing, at least for the imediate future. We could augment it with Best Practices for converting tuple-using code to D.
"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:br5ik7$10i9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 <jhenzie mac.com> wrote in message news:bl39od$nrr$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 With D that might be different, especially as its something they know
 little or nothing about, particulally if it can be demostrated that D
 provides the developer productivity of Java and C# with
 the speed and flexibility of C++, they could be a phenominal ally in
 developing this beast, particulally woth regards to GCC on PPC.

I've been intrigued by claims of Python being a very productive language to write apps. (The downside of Python is the slow runtime performance.) Just for fun I've tried porting some Python code to D. It goes pretty easy, which leads me to suspect that writing D can be almost as productive as writing Python, but with the performance of C++ at runtime.


Yes. And for the C(++) programmer, the step to D is a lot shorter than to Python. This means that he can be pretty productive right from the start with D. (Typically a programmer who switches languages has a switchover time during which he can't use his favorite idioms in the new language, nor can he yet use the new idioms. The more the languages differ, the narrower is his choice before he becomes fluent.) Adding this to what Walter said, the choice should a no-brainer!
Dec 10 2003
parent Ilya Minkov <minkov cs.tum.edu> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 I think this could be a library thing, at least for the imediate 
 future. We could augment it with Best Practices for converting 
 tuple-using code to D.

Our template system is too weak to make tuples a convenient library feature, unlike C++. However taking previous design decisions into account, we should rather make 2 simple additions to the language, instead of pushing up the tempate system. -eye
Dec 10 2003
prev sibling parent Mark T <Mark_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bl2k90$2tkd$1 digitaldaemon.com>, jhenzie mac.com says...
Keep it to D boys otherwise I am going to have to get on my OS X soap box, oops
slipped.

Actually as an aside I think OS X is a great target for D and here's why.

have to get the GNU D compiler rolling.
Oct 03 2003
prev sibling parent reply John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> writes:
DrakeX wrote:
 i know a lot of people here are probably lifetime linux/unix users who are used
 to newsgroups like this but for me it's just.... counter-intuitive.  it's
 practically impossible to find anything in a text list of links, not to mention
 virtually impossible to navigate through a thread (slow on a modem and with all
 these people quoting others it's hard to follow).  
 
 what say we have an actual forum like YaBB?  or phpBB?
 

I have to say, I think the forum idea would be a neat idea... if it were anything like the Gentoo Linux forum (and numerous other projects; it's become very popular) -- searchable, sectioned, nicely arranged into topics and generally just quite pretty to look at. Not to mention that being a member is great because you can see how many posts you've made and get a funky little title that rates your level of participation in the group (come on...somebody has got to like the idea of eventually getting called a D Guru! ;-) ) The other advantage is that people can see the stats for the site... how many posts, how many people logged in per day, how many members, how many guests. All that would help us see the course of the language popularity. It would add some professionalism too, I think. Digitalmars' newsgroup right now does function well, though. If you've got Mozilla Thunderbird on any OS, you've got all you need; integrated search tools are useful enough to find the topics you want. In comparison, the problem with adding a web type forum would be (maybe?) increased maintenance and the need for administrators. That may be the main thing holding it back. Most people here have a busy schedule. I still would like to see it happen, though. The current digitalmars newsgroup is also one of the best spam free newsgroups I've seen yet. I think this could be maintained with a member-type forum also, perhaps not as easily. I don't know Another thing, Walter seems to use this newsgroup for bug submissions, where he takes a bug post from here and plops it in a TO DO directory within his browser (am I correct?) A forum would make things difficult for him to manage bug submissions like he's used to. Unless the forum could implement a separate bug submission section which auto-forwarded mail directily to Walter as posts to the area were submitted. A simple email filter on his end could redirect the email into the appropriate folder. I actually don't think the vast majority here are Linux/Unix users - maybe most are casual linux users. I think many migrated on over from the Digitalmars C/C++ windows arena. Certainly the more Linux users the better, though! :-D That makes for a more balanced community. Later, John
Sep 21 2003
parent reply DrakeX <DrakeX_member pathlink.com> writes:
"(come on...somebody has got to like the idea of eventually getting called a D
Guru! ;-)    )"

i do :D  man i'm such a nerd.

"It would add some professionalism too, I think."

agreed.  this board is like an anciet BBS you would navigate from a DOS console
with a 1200 baud modem.. and frankly, doesn't make a very good impression about
the company that owns it.

"the problem with adding a web type forum would be (maybe?) increased
maintenance and the need for administrators."

true.  however:

"The current digitalmars newsgroup is also one of the best spam free newsgroups
I've seen yet.  I think this could be maintained with a member-type forum also,
perhaps not as easily."

because of the fact that this place is a well-behaved community, the moderators
probably wouldn't have to clean up the messes members make.  and so, it could
probably be moderated by one or two moderators (i've seen larger forums with
only three and not a problem). 

"Unless the forum could implement a separate bug submission section which
auto-forwarded mail directily to Walter as posts to the area were submitted."

most message boards allow you to put your own custom code in to do stuff like
that.
Sep 22 2003
parent reply John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> writes:
 "It would add some professionalism too, I think."
 
 agreed.  this board is like an anciet BBS you would navigate from a DOS console
 with a 1200 baud modem.. and frankly, doesn't make a very good impression about
 the company that owns it.
 

Woah! Ouch! I wouldn't go that far. If you have the proper tools, it looks and works quite nicely in a newsgroup client program. Maybe the web-interface at digitalmars isn't much to look at or use, but I don't think most people use that interface for real D interaction (so far as I know). The web interface is a pain, but I'd say it's just there as a last resort. I know I use it when I'm away from my home computer and just want to see any new posts. I actually don't mind the current newsgroup method, I just think it would be better and prettier with a NEW web forum interface as is becoming popular these days with Bulletin Boards. Later, John
Sep 22 2003
parent reply DrakeX <DrakeX_member pathlink.com> writes:
"The web interface is a pain"

you're telling me :)  i guess i'm going to have to find a "newsgroup client"
whatever that is... i think i might've gotten rid of outlook express but i'll
look..
Sep 22 2003
next sibling parent reply "DrakeX" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
there!  i do still have outlook express.  it looks better now.  and it's
faster.
Sep 22 2003
parent Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bknt8r$18j$1 digitaldaemon.com>, DrakeX says...
there!  i do still have outlook express.  it looks better now.  and it's
faster.

Poor guy... he thinks outlook express is a good thing... :( Ant Let's try to keep this group D related
Sep 22 2003
prev sibling parent reply Benji Smith <dlanguage xxagg.com> writes:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:21:41 +0000 (UTC), DrakeX
<DrakeX_member pathlink.com> wrote:

"The web interface is a pain"

you're telling me :)  i guess i'm going to have to find a "newsgroup client"
whatever that is... i think i might've gotten rid of outlook express but i'll
look..

You might want to try "Agent." It's a very very good news browser with tons and tons of cool features. Unfortunately, it costs $29, and I don't know anyone who has ever paid to get it. Everyone, like me, uses the free version of the product (called FreeAgent) which has most of its cool features disabled. But it's still a very cool product, and I'd dare say that it's at least slightly better for newsgroups than Outlook Express. --Benji
Sep 22 2003
parent reply Benji Smith <dlanguage xxagg.com> writes:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:14:31 -0600, Benji Smith <dlanguage xxagg.com>
wrote:
You might want to try "Agent." 

By the way, here's a link to the agent homepage: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php
Sep 22 2003
parent "DrakeX" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
thanks for that guys :)
Sep 22 2003