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digitalmars.D.announce - June 2005 LOLQs for D, D.gnu, digitalmars.D, digitalmars.D.announce,

reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The information below was generated by hand.  As such, there 
may be a few human inaccuracies in it.  If I've miscounted, listed you 
as two people when you're actually one (or vice versa) or otherwise made 
a typo, please let me know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Following the success (ah-hum) of LOLQs last month, another month has 
passed, and so it's time for some updated statistics.

This is only a summary, listing the top 10 in each 'group (more or fewer 
if necessary).  The full statistics can be downloaded here:

http://smjg.port5.com/pr/d/lolq.xls

Because of various plans, it is as yet unknown when/if I'll be able to 
post these stats next month.

=========
June 2005
=========

D
-

Total posts: 0
Total posters: 0

D.gnu
-----
1. 13 Geritt P. Haase
2½. 12 Anders F Björklund
2½. 12 David Friedman
4. 8 Denis R
5. 6 U.Baumanis
6. 4 Peri Hankey
7½. 3 bug d.com
7½. 3 D. Trebbien
10. 2 Carlos Santander B. (aka Carlos Santander)
10. 2 Brad Beveridge (aka brad beveridge)
10. 2 clayasaurus

Total posts: 73
Total posters: 17

digitalmars.D
-------------
1. 95 Regan Heath
2. 86 Andrew Fedoniouk
3. 70 Derek Parnell (aka Derek)
4. 60 Sean Kelly
5. 55 Walter
6. 53 Ben Hinkle
7. 51 Brad Beveridge (aka brad beveridge)
8. 46 Trevor Parscal (aka Trevor)
9. 42 Unknown W. Brackets
10. 34 Stewart Gordon

Total posts: 1186
Total posters: 110

digitalmars.D.announce
----------------------
1. 41 Walter
2. 28 Derek Parnell
3. 21 Andrew Fedoniouk
4. 16 Anders F Björklund
5. 15 clayasaurus
6½. 14 Jarrett Billingsley
6½. 14 James Dunne
8. 13 John Reimer
9. 12 Unknown W. Brackets
10. 12 Trevor Parscal

Total posts: 73
Total posters: 17

digitalmars.D.bugs
------------------
1. 47 Thomas Kühne (aka Thomas Kuehne)
2½. 23 Stewart Gordon
2½. 23 Walter
4. 18 Derek Parnell (aka Derek)
5. 14 Regan Heath
6. 10 Ben Hinkle
7. 9 Nick
9. 8 Andrew Fedoniouk
9. 8 Unknown W. Brackets
9. 8 derick_eddington nospam.yahoo.nospam.com (aka numerous variants)

Total posts: 245
Total posters: 36

digitalmars.D.learn
-------------------
1. 28 Regan Heath
2. 21 Derek Parnell
3. 15 Charles Hixson
4. 11 Jarrett Billingsley
5. 9 Chris Sauls
6. 8 Dawid Ciezarkiewicz
8½. 7 Denis R (aka DenisR)
8½. 7 Stewart Gordon
8½. 7 Tiago Gasiba
8½. 7 Trevor Parscal

Total posts: 224
Total posters: 51

digitalmars.empire
------------------

Total posts: 0
Total posters: 0


===========
Year so far
===========

D
-
1½. 4 Walter
1½. 4 Denis R
3½. 3 Stewart Gordon
3½. 3 AEon
5½. 2 Matthew
5½. 2 Thomas Kuehne
16. 1 Derek Parnell
16. 1 Kevin Bealer
16. 1 Marco A
16. 1 Mikael Haapakoski
16. 1 Thomas
16. 1 Bartosz Milewski
16. 1 Benjamin Herr
16. 1 clayasaurus
16. 1 J C Calvarese
16. 1 jmchxy 163.com
16. 1 m.martin gmx.org
16. 1 Dejan Lekic
16. 1 Benjamin Heath
16. 1 Carlos Santander B.
16. 1 jicman gmail.com
16. 1 John Reimer
16. 1 Andrew Fedoniouk
16. 1 Norbert Nemec
16. 1 tomo

Total posts: 37
Total posters: 25

D.gnu
-----
1. 118 Anders F Björklund
2. 68 David Friedman
3. 29 Thomas Kühne (aka Thomas Kuehne)
4. 21 Carlos Santander B. (aka Carlos Santander)
5. 19 bug d.com
6. 14 Brad Beveridge (aka brad beveridge)
7. 13 Geritt P. Haase
8. 10 John Reimer
9½. 8 Denis R
9½. 8 Manfred Nowak

Total posts: 449
Total posters: 69

digitalmars.D
-------------
1. 874 Anders F Björklund
2. 686 Ben Hinkle
3. 678 Walter
4. 613 Matthew
5. 545 Derek Parnell (aka Derek)
6. 508 Regan Heath
7. 435 Andrew Fedoniouk
8. 327 TechnoZeus
9. 290 Kris (aka kris)
10. 277 John Reimer (aka John R)

Total posts: 11744
Total posters: 376

digitalmars.D.announce
----------------------
1. 105 Walter
2½. 45 Andrew Fedoniouk
2½. 45 Ben Hinkle
4. 41 Derek Parnell
5. 40 Charlie
6. 33 Jarrett Billingsley
7½. 30 Anders F Björklund
7½. 30 John Reimer
9. 29 Stewart Gordon
10. 26 clayasaurus

Total posts: 865
Total posters: 95

digitalmars.D.bugs
------------------
1. 355 Thomas Kühne (aka Thomas Kuehne)
2. 131 Stewart Gordon
3. 125 Walter
4. 117 Regan Heath
5. 89 Ben Hinkle
6. 85 Derek Parnell (aka Derek)
7. 75 Anders F Björklund
8. 60 zwang
9½. 34 Nick
9½. 34 Manfred Nowak

Total posts: 1782
Total posters: 119

digitalmars.D.learn
-------------------
1. 114 Regan Heath
2. 108 Derek Parnell
3. 87 AEon
4. 75 Ben Hinkle
5. 41 Jarrett Billingsley
6. 40 J C Calvarese
7. 33 jicman
8. 25 Chris Sauls
9. 24 Andrew Fedoniouk
10. 23 clayasaurus

Total posts: 1205
Total posters: 124

digitalmars.empire
------------------
1. 7 Walter
2½. 3 Derek Parnell
2½. 3 Radoslaw Zarwalski
4½. 2 clayasaurus
4½. 2 Stewart Gordon
7. 1 David Beoulve
7. 1 Joey Peters
7. 1 jonathon

Total posts: 20
Total posters: 9

-- 
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on 
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Jul 01 2005
next sibling parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Perfect :D!

-[Unknown]



 9. 42 Unknown W. Brackets
Jul 01 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:


 ===========
 Year so far
 ===========



 D.gnu
 -----
 1. 118 Anders F Björklund



 digitalmars.D
 -------------
 1. 874 Anders F Björklund


Too bad that all that talking hasn't gotten us much further :-)
(still not sure it that's a "good one" or a "bad one" I got ?)

I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.

However, I'll keep plugging D on Mac OS X and will try again later...
And who knows, maybe the language has even been released by then. :-)

GDC 0.14 for Mac OS X, available at http://gdcmac.sourceforge.net/

--anders
Jul 01 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
news:da476t$2132$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Too bad that all that talking hasn't gotten us much further :-)
 (still not sure it that's a "good one" or a "bad one" I got ?)


I think the language has moved pretty far, according to the changelog.


 I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
 looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.


Why?
Jul 01 2005
next sibling parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:da56f7$2sbk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da476t$2132$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Too bad that all that talking hasn't gotten us much further :-)
 (still not sure it that's a "good one" or a "bad one" I got ?)


 I think the language has moved pretty far, according to the changelog.


 I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
 looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.






 Why?


I lost three projects which were seriosly considered for D initially.
In our case there was two reasons:
a) no const or equivalent (e.g. opAssign) ( three votes against one ) - 
major reason for 12 developers team and estimated
700000 lines of code in final products. Final decision - C++.
b) no mobile platform support (one not so big project but with strong mobile 
demand in perspective) - C++

Andrew.
Jul 02 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:da5grk$3ff$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da56f7$2sbk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da476t$2132$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Too bad that all that talking hasn't gotten us much further :-)
 (still not sure it that's a "good one" or a "bad one" I got ?)


 I think the language has moved pretty far, according to the changelog.


 I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
 looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.






 Why?


 I lost three projects which were seriosly considered for D initially.
 In our case there was two reasons:
 a) no const or equivalent (e.g. opAssign) ( three votes against one ) -
 major reason for 12 developers team and estimated
 700000 lines of code in final products. Final decision - C++.


I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, such as
array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.


 b) no mobile platform support (one not so big project but with strong


mobile

 demand in perspective) - C++


I'm not sure what this means.
Jul 02 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:da5l1t$9da$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:da5grk$3ff$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da56f7$2sbk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da476t$2132$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Too bad that all that talking hasn't gotten us much further :-)
 (still not sure it that's a "good one" or a "bad one" I got ?)


 I think the language has moved pretty far, according to the changelog.


 I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
 looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.






 Why?


 I lost three projects which were seriosly considered for D initially.
 In our case there was two reasons:
 a) no const or equivalent (e.g. opAssign) ( three votes against one ) -
 major reason for 12 developers team and estimated
 700000 lines of code in final products. Final decision - C++.


 I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, such 
 as
 array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.


All these and couple of things more was the main reason why we
decided to consider D as a primary development language.
(Harmonia was a proof of concept actually)

const and const references is a part of DbC and big one.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_contract and from
there go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Const_correctness )

opAssign/ctor/dtor for C++ programmer is also huge these days.

To be short: D has nice features but to convince somebody
to switch to it e.g. from C++, D shall demonstrate
that it:
1) can handle most popular design patterns.
2) has more features - simplifies development a lot.

Currently D 'has more ...' part (and attractive enough) but has
no basic C++ features (mentioned above) - and the worst thing
that you even cannot emulate them in D in principle (physically).



E.g. you cannot implement std::string C++ class in D.
Yes, you can do something close but you will not be able to use slices with 
it.
This is making one of most attractible features worthless.

There was multiple attempts to make string class in D but
all of them (without immutables and immutable slicing)
look unreliable for commercial software design.


 b) no mobile platform support (one not so big project but with strong


 mobile

 demand in perspective) - C++


 I'm not sure what this means.


There is no compiler proven to produce code for XScale
processors Windows CE (Mobile).
Jul 02 2005
next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:da7n5u$fqr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da5l1t$9da$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, such
 as
 array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.


 All these and couple of things more was the main reason why we
 decided to consider D as a primary development language.
 (Harmonia was a proof of concept actually)

 const and const references is a part of DbC and big one.
 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_contract and from
 there go to
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Const_correctness )
 opAssign/ctor/dtor for C++ programmer is also huge these days.


The main use for opAssign I've seen (and if one does opAssign, one must do
ctor's, dtor's) is to implement reference counting, or some other mechanism
for managing memory. What other huge uses are there for it?



 To be short: D has nice features but to convince somebody
 to switch to it e.g. from C++, D shall demonstrate
 that it:
 1) can handle most popular design patterns.
 2) has more features - simplifies development a lot.

 Currently D 'has more ...' part (and attractive enough) but has
 no basic C++ features (mentioned above) - and the worst thing
 that you even cannot emulate them in D in principle (physically).




Java doesn't have const, nor does it have opAssign, nor scoped destruction,
nor even structs. What's stopping you from making a Java.lang.String class
in D?



 E.g. you cannot implement std::string C++ class in D.
 Yes, you can do something close but you will not be able to use slices


with

 it.
 This is making one of most attractible features worthless.

 There was multiple attempts to make string class in D but
 all of them (without immutables and immutable slicing)
 look unreliable for commercial software design.


Can I ask exactly what feature is motivating a desire for a string class? Is
it the desire to make immutable strings?


 b) no mobile platform support (one not so big project but with strong


 mobile

 demand in perspective) - C++


 I'm not sure what this means.


 There is no compiler proven to produce code for XScale
 processors Windows CE (Mobile).


Is there a gcc for it? If so, then one can make a gdc for it, though I admit
that would probably not be an attractive idea for a team interested in
building an app rather than a compiler.
Jul 03 2005
parent "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:da8bdq$t7o$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:da7n5u$fqr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da5l1t$9da$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, 
 such
 as
 array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.


 All these and couple of things more was the main reason why we
 decided to consider D as a primary development language.
 (Harmonia was a proof of concept actually)

 const and const references is a part of DbC and big one.
 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_contract and from
 there go to
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Const_correctness )
 opAssign/ctor/dtor for C++ programmer is also huge these days.


 The main use for opAssign I've seen (and if one does opAssign, one must do
 ctor's, dtor's) is to implement reference counting, or some other 
 mechanism
 for managing memory. What other huge uses are there for it?


1) Full group of smart pointers and RAII cases: auto_ptr, shared_ptr, 
com_ptr
2) COW strings and arrays.


 To be short: D has nice features but to convince somebody
 to switch to it e.g. from C++, D shall demonstrate
 that it:
 1) can handle most popular design patterns.
 2) has more features - simplifies development a lot.

 Currently D 'has more ...' part (and attractive enough) but has
 no basic C++ features (mentioned above) - and the worst thing
 that you even cannot emulate them in D in principle (physically).




 Java doesn't have const, nor does it have opAssign, nor scoped 
 destruction,
 nor even structs. What's stopping you from making a Java.lang.String class
 in D?


As Java String is completely useless in D.
Anders already mentioned it.
You cannot return slice from it.

To be short as it is immutable it requires immutable slices.
As all system and runtime functions require char[] then
strictly speaking String is useless.


 E.g. you cannot implement std::string C++ class in D.
 Yes, you can do something close but you will not be able to use slices


 with

 it.
 This is making one of most attractible features worthless.

 There was multiple attempts to make string class in D but
 all of them (without immutables and immutable slicing)
 look unreliable for commercial software design.


 Can I ask exactly what feature is motivating a desire for a string class? 
 Is
 it the desire to make immutable strings?


 b) no mobile platform support (one not so big project but with strong


 mobile

 demand in perspective) - C++


 I'm not sure what this means.


 There is no compiler proven to produce code for XScale
 processors Windows CE (Mobile).


 Is there a gcc for it? If so, then one can make a gdc for it, though I 
 admit
 that would probably not be an attractive idea for a team interested in
 building an app rather than a compiler.


I have only information about theoretical opprtunity
to make WinCE exuctables on WinCE. No practical
projects.

Would be nice if D can be compileable in abstract byte or P code.
To create a cross compiler using this code or just using some simple VM will 
be cool
from portability point of view.
Jul 03 2005
prev sibling parent reply Georg Bauhaus <bauhaus futureapps.de> writes:
Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:


a) no const or equivalent (e.g. opAssign) ( three votes against one ) -
major reason for 12 developers team and estimated
700000 lines of code in final products. Final decision - C++.


I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, such 
as
array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.




hi,

I may be missing the obvious, but isn't there a lot
of constness that you can achieve with mode in parameters?


georg
Jul 03 2005
parent reply "Ben Hinkle" <ben.hinkle gmail.com> writes:
"Georg Bauhaus" <bauhaus futureapps.de> wrote in message 
news:da8di3$um2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:


a) no const or equivalent (e.g. opAssign) ( three votes against one ) -
major reason for 12 developers team and estimated
700000 lines of code in final products. Final decision - C++.


I'm surprised they'd trade const for all the other safety features, such 
as
array overflow checking, guaranteed initialization, DbC, etc.




 hi,

 I may be missing the obvious, but isn't there a lot
 of constness that you can achieve with mode in parameters?


 georg


Passing a pointer, reference or array as 'in' will not prevent you from 
changing the contents of the thing pointed to, referred to, ... or arrayed 
to :-)
Jul 03 2005
parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Ben Hinkle wrote:


I may be missing the obvious, but isn't there a lot
of constness that you can achieve with mode in parameters?


 
 Passing a pointer, reference or array as 'in' will not prevent you from 
 changing the contents of the thing pointed to, referred to, ... or arrayed 
 to :-)


For what its worth, it _will_ protect the pointer itself.

If you want to change the pointer or the .ptr/.length,
you need to use the mode out for any such parameters:

void foo(char[] s) // "in"
{
   s ~= "foo"; // does nothing
}

void bar(inout char[] s) // "out"
{
   s ~= "bar"; // adds to string
}

Neither declaration _prevents_ you from changing s[],
but you are supposed to use Copy-on-Write - as usual.

--anders
Jul 03 2005
prev sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Walter wrote:


 I think the language has moved pretty far, according to the changelog.


No argument there, but sometimes I have this feeling that most of us
just argue about small issues - while you and David implement them ;-)

If there are better places to put suggestions and/or code patches than
the Wiki and the Newsgroups, maybe "the rest of us" could help out more?

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress


I had planned on switching a big project from C and to D, but it
looks like I have to choose another language instead I'm afraid.





 Why?


Well, I could continue with using C of course - but after doing Java
and generally "the world changing", it feels a bit clunky these days.
(and doing the client application in Java didn't work out that good;
while it worked great on the server side, it was just too slow/big ?)

The other choices would be either C++, like "the rest of the world"
uses - but I have never liked it. It is doable, but it was never "fun".
Lastly an option is using Objective-C and getting "closer to SmallTalk",
but that would tie it more to Mac OS X... (Even with GNUstep around ?)


While I have gotten most of the things I need to work with D (and GDC),
I'm still lacking a few items like a good GUI application framework, or
documentation for other programmers should they need to "help me out"...
At least with C/C++ and Objective-C/C++ there are plenty of docs around.

The question for me is whether I want to "wait" for D to also get the
libraries and the documentation, or if I must get on with constructing ?
It would probably be easier on the other platforms (Windows/Linux X86)
than on the Mac and I still like the D programming language a lot, but.


Anyway, I don't _really_ have to decide - until next month or so... :-)
Guess I will think it through on summer holidays, and see where it goes.

--anders

PS. This project looks promising: wxD http://wxd.sourceforge.net/,
Jul 02 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
news:da5h2g$3go$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Anyway, I don't _really_ have to decide - until next month or so... :-)
 Guess I will think it through on summer holidays, and see where it goes.


Thanks for letting me know. But I think that the SWT project may be
completed in the next month or so, and it may solve the GUI problem for you.
Jul 02 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:da5l1u$9da$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da5h2g$3go$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Anyway, I don't _really_ have to decide - until next month or so... :-)
 Guess I will think it through on summer holidays, and see where it goes.


 Thanks for letting me know. But I think that the SWT project may be
 completed in the next month or so, and it may solve the GUI problem for 
 you.


Sorry for persistence but something is telling me that without "const"
solution Phobos will never be solid enough for enterprise(business) 
programming.

I wouldn't rely on SWT too. As it is already natively compileable then
motivation to use it outside of Java is pretty minor.
Having SWT (as any other GUI library) is good in general though.
But again (sorry) SWT needs Java runtime with String, Phobos
shall be rewritten from scratch, etc.

Any progress from Kris, btw?
Jul 04 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:dacd4j$1rjr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da5l1u$9da$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da5h2g$3go$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Anyway, I don't _really_ have to decide - until next month or so... :-)
 Guess I will think it through on summer holidays, and see where it






goes.

 Thanks for letting me know. But I think that the SWT project may be
 completed in the next month or so, and it may solve the GUI problem for
 you.


 Sorry for persistence but something is telling me that without "const"
 solution Phobos will never be solid enough for enterprise(business)
 programming.


Since other languages don't have const yet are solid for enterprise
programming, I have a hard time understanding this.


 I wouldn't rely on SWT too. As it is already natively compileable then
 motivation to use it outside of Java is pretty minor.
 Having SWT (as any other GUI library) is good in general though.
 But again (sorry) SWT needs Java runtime with String, Phobos
 shall be rewritten from scratch, etc.

 Any progress from Kris, btw?


I think Kris is on vacation.
Jul 08 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:damhf1$khh$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:dacd4j$1rjr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:da5l1u$9da$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Anders F Björklund" <afb algonet.se> wrote in message
 news:da5h2g$3go$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Anyway, I don't _really_ have to decide - until next month or so... 
 :-)
 Guess I will think it through on summer holidays, and see where it






 goes.

 Thanks for letting me know. But I think that the SWT project may be
 completed in the next month or so, and it may solve the GUI problem for
 you.


 Sorry for persistence but something is telling me that without "const"
 solution Phobos will never be solid enough for enterprise(business)
 programming.


 Since other languages don't have const yet are solid for enterprise
 programming, I have a hard time understanding this.


"other languages don't have const"
All languages of enterprise programming level (whatever it means)
has concept of either immutable basic/builtin reference types (String, 
DateTime) with
their immutabilty enforcement or have a concept of const. Either shalow or 
deep.

From known to me languages, only VB has no such concept at all.

Java has immutability of primitive reference types but:

"as of  May 2004, support for const is the fourth most popular Java request 
for enhancement."
(The first and third most popular requests (generics and covariant return 
types) are addressed by the Java 1.5 language, and the second most popular 
request is “Provide documentation in Chinese.”)
http://pag.csail.mit.edu/~mernst/pubs/ref-immutability-oopsla2004.pdf



 I wouldn't rely on SWT too. As it is already natively compileable then
 motivation to use it outside of Java is pretty minor.
 Having SWT (as any other GUI library) is good in general though.
 But again (sorry) SWT needs Java runtime with String, Phobos
 shall be rewritten from scratch, etc.

 Any progress from Kris, btw?


 I think Kris is on vacation.
Jul 09 2005
parent reply David L. Davis <SpottedTiger yahoo.com> writes:
In article <dap6di$2skm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...

"other languages don't have const"
All languages of enterprise programming level (whatever it means)
has concept of either immutable basic/builtin reference types (String, 
DateTime) with their immutabilty enforcement or have a concept of const. 
Either shalow or deep.

From known to me languages, only VB has no such concept at all.


Visual Basic (VB) has a "Const" keyword that works well with Strings and
primitive datatypes, and it also has a "ByVal" and "ByRef" for parameters passed
into functions that works too. So, I'm not sure why you've fingered VB as a
simple language with no concept of a constant non-changing value.

David L.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dare to reach for the Stars...Dare to Dream, Build, and Achieve!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

MKoD: http://spottedtiger.tripod.com/D_Language/D_Main_XP.html
Jul 09 2005
parent "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"David L. Davis" <SpottedTiger yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:dapqn2$d0b$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <dap6di$2skm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...

"other languages don't have const"
All languages of enterprise programming level (whatever it means)
has concept of either immutable basic/builtin reference types (String,
DateTime) with their immutabilty enforcement or have a concept of const.
Either shalow or deep.

From known to me languages, only VB has no such concept at all.


 Visual Basic (VB) has a "Const" keyword that works well with Strings and
 primitive datatypes, and it also has a "ByVal" and "ByRef" for parameters 
 passed
 into functions that works too. So, I'm not sure why you've fingered VB as 
 a
 simple language with no concept of a constant non-changing value.


Const keyword in VB plays pretty much the same role as in D except one
thing - it supports String type also.

ByVal and ByRef is the same as 'in' and 'inout' in D except of
ByVal makes a copy of String values which is not so
realistic to use. ByVal String inside fucnction is not an
immutable value/reference.

Forgot to mention. I am speaking about the VB -
VB version 6 and not VB.NET as it is different language.

Andrew.
Jul 09 2005
prev sibling parent reply Carlos Santander <csantander619 gmail.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon escribió:

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Disclaimer: The information below was generated by hand.  As such, there 
 may be a few human inaccuracies in it.  If I've miscounted, listed you 
 as two people when you're actually one (or vice versa) or otherwise made 
 a typo, please let me know.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Following the success (ah-hum) of LOLQs last month, another month has 
 passed, and so it's time for some updated statistics.
 
 This is only a summary, listing the top 10 in each 'group (more or fewer 
 if necessary).  The full statistics can be downloaded here:
 
 http://smjg.port5.com/pr/d/lolq.xls
 
 Because of various plans, it is as yet unknown when/if I'll be able to 
 post these stats next month.
 


Pure curiosity: why don't you also include stats for DMDscript? Also, 
what does LOLQ mean?

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
Jul 01 2005
next sibling parent clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
Carlos Santander wrote:

 Stewart Gordon escribió:
 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Disclaimer: The information below was generated by hand.  As such, 
 there may be a few human inaccuracies in it.  If I've miscounted, 
 listed you as two people when you're actually one (or vice versa) or 
 otherwise made a typo, please let me know.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Following the success (ah-hum) of LOLQs last month, another month has 
 passed, and so it's time for some updated statistics.

 This is only a summary, listing the top 10 in each 'group (more or 
 fewer if necessary).  The full statistics can be downloaded here:

 http://smjg.port5.com/pr/d/lolq.xls

 Because of various plans, it is as yet unknown when/if I'll be able to 
 post these stats next month.


 
 Pure curiosity: why don't you also include stats for DMDscript? Also, 
 what does LOLQ mean?
 


Loss of life quotient... the amount you post is the equivilent to your 
loss of life.
Jul 01 2005
prev sibling parent Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Carlos Santander wrote:
<snip>

 Pure curiosity: why don't you also include stats for DMDscript?


I've included stats for those 'groups I'm
currently subscribed to.  I don't (yet?) lack enough life to be looking 
through every 'group on the DM server.  But nobody'll stop you doing it 
yourself if you like.


 Also, what does LOLQ mean?


http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?LOLQ

You can't blame me, I didn't coin the term.  And sadly that's now a 
ghost wiki, stuck in the read-only position....

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Jul 04 2005