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digitalmars.D.announce - Metaprogramming in D tonight at the NWCPP

reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
http://www.nwcpp.org/
Jan 21 2009
next sibling parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Walter,


 http://www.nwcpp.org/
 



Crud! 99.9% of the time I'd be able to say I'm 300mi away and couldn't make 
it, but right now I'm 30mi from Seattle for other reasons. What are the chances 
that I'd be only a little to far out for one of the few talks I'd like to 
go to?
Jan 21 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Hello Walter,


 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 make it, but right now I'm 30mi from Seattle for other reasons. What are
 the chances that I'd be only a little to far out for one of the few
 talks I'd like to go to?



 It would have been nice to meet up, but I don't think you missed
 anything in the talk itself that you don't already know.  It was a
 really good intro to the syntax and capabilities of D's meta prgramming
 primitives.



The beer afterwards was good, too <g>.
Jan 22 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Hello Walter,
 

 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 Crud! 99.9% of the time I'd be able to say I'm 300mi away and couldn't
 make it, but right now I'm 30mi from Seattle for other reasons. What are
 the chances that I'd be only a little to far out for one of the few
 talks I'd like to go to?
 



It would have been nice to meet up, but I don't think you missed
anything in the talk itself that you don't already know.  It was a
really good intro to the syntax and capabilities of D's meta prgramming
primitives.

Later,
Brad
Jan 21 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 http://www.nwcpp.org/



****!!! I had a lab or I would have gone ;-( Any chance of a video...?
Jan 21 2009
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Robert Fraser wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 ****!!! I had a lab or I would have gone ;-( Any chance of a video...?



Bartosz videotaped it, I imagine he'll put it up on the nwcpp.org web 
site soon.
Jan 22 2009
next sibling parent Arild Boes <aboesx gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright skrev:

 Robert Fraser wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 ****!!! I had a lab or I would have gone ;-( Any chance of a video...?



 Bartosz videotaped it, I imagine he'll put it up on the nwcpp.org web 
 site soon.



yay! can't wait for that :)
Jan 29 2009
prev sibling parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Walter,


 Robert Fraser wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 http://www.nwcpp.org/
 



 video...?
 



 site soon.
 



Bump ?????
Mar 01 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Hello Walter,
 

 Robert Fraser wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 video...?



 site soon.



 Bump ?????



You'll have to ask Bartosz!
Mar 05 2009
parent reply Arild Boes <aboesx gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright skrev:

 BCS wrote:

 Hello Walter,


 Robert Fraser wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 ****!!! I had a lab or I would have gone ;-( Any chance of a
 video...?



 site soon.



 Bump ?????



 You'll have to ask Bartosz!



Done.
Apr 22 2009
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Arild,


 Walter Bright skrev:
 

 BCS wrote:
 

 Hello Walter,
 

 Robert Fraser wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 http://www.nwcpp.org/
 



 video...?
 



 web site soon.
 



 



 



 



link?
Apr 22 2009
parent Arild Boes <aboesx gmail.com> writes:
BCS skrev:

 Reply to Arild,
 

 Walter Bright skrev:


 BCS wrote:


 Hello Walter,


 Robert Fraser wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 video...?



 web site soon.












 link?
 
 



Asking bartosz: Done.

Answer:

"Yes, I have the video, but I haven’t uploaded it yet. The quality is 
really bad. I’ll try to get to it in the coming days."

Waiting for coming days: In progress.

Sorry if was too trigger happy on this one, I maybe should have waited
until he posted it.

I'll post the link, when it comes around.
Apr 22 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Arild Boes <abo dae.dk> writes:
Here’s the link:

http://www.vimeo.com/4333802
Apr 26 2009
next sibling parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Arild,


 Here's the link:
 
 http://www.vimeo.com/4333802
 



SWEET! to bad it's almost midnight and I'm pineing for a 56K link right now 
(don't ask) so I'll have to wait til later
Apr 26 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Arild Boes:

 Here's the link:
 http://www.vimeo.com/4333802



Globally is a very nice presentation.

I like how Walter is never putting himself over the people that are listening.
He is humble and at the same level.
But the video isn't finished, where's the second part of the video? :-)

Using html pages with scroll down... uhm, I am not sure I like that much.

Walter explains the code he shows mostly after questions, not before. This has
both advantages and disadvantages.

I think that unaryFunc has fused their brain a bit :-)

In the video the myToString function lacks the generation of the suffix.

-----------------

Notes about D2, from the video:

The "static foreach" can be quite useful.

To reduce memory used by templates the compiler may perform tail-call
optimization on the computations done by templates...

I don't like much that usage of "enum" keywork, in D2. It doesn't sound natural.

If functions can be run at compile time, can the "template" keyword be removed
from the language? (to allow this other small things may be changed/improved).

Bye,
bearophile
Apr 27 2009
parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
bearophile wrote:

 Arild Boes:

 Here's the link: http://www.vimeo.com/4333802



 Globally is a very nice presentation.
 
 I like how Walter is never putting himself over the people that are
 listening. He is humble and at the same level.



It has to be a gift! Richard Stallman is the opposite, both on podium 
and in person. Not good PR for FSF.


 Using html pages with scroll down... uhm, I am not sure I like that
 much.



That hit me too. I've been using PP or OO "just because", never really 
thinking. But there are some advantages to using "a straight, long 
document".

It's a /lot/ faster to create the presentation. You don't have to split 
stuff into screenfulls (or fight with the presentation software!) And 
once on stage, scrolling back is way easier and faster! And you can 
sroll to exactly where you want, instead of to the nearest screenful.

Heh, now I can say "if it's good enough for Walter Bright on a big butt 
guru forum, I can use it, too!"
May 04 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 That hit me too. I've been using PP or OO "just because", never really 
 thinking. But there are some advantages to using "a straight, long 
 document".
 
 It's a /lot/ faster to create the presentation. You don't have to split 
 stuff into screenfulls (or fight with the presentation software!) And 
 once on stage, scrolling back is way easier and faster! And you can 
 sroll to exactly where you want, instead of to the nearest screenful.
 
 Heh, now I can say "if it's good enough for Walter Bright on a big butt 
 guru forum, I can use it, too!"



Everyone I talked to who was there didn't like it. I've switched to OO 
Impress!
May 04 2009
next sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 That hit me too. I've been using PP or OO "just because", never really
 thinking. But there are some advantages to using "a straight, long
 document".

 It's a /lot/ faster to create the presentation. You don't have to
 split stuff into screenfulls (or fight with the presentation
 software!) And once on stage, scrolling back is way easier and faster!
 And you can sroll to exactly where you want, instead of to the nearest
 screenful.

 Heh, now I can say "if it's good enough for Walter Bright on a big
 butt guru forum, I can use it, too!"



 Everyone I talked to who was there didn't like it. I've switched to OO
 Impress!



There's always S5: it lets you make slideshows in HTML.

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/

  -- Daniel
May 04 2009
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 There's always S5: it lets you make slideshows in HTML.
 
 http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/



After playing with OO Impress for a while, I've found it to be quicker 
and easier to produce a slideshow with it than with html. For another 
thing, the fonts render obviously better than in firefox. I have no idea 
why.
May 04 2009
prev sibling parent "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon gmail.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 There's always S5: it lets you make slideshows in HTML.
 
 http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/



I’m partial to Slidy <http://www.w3.org/Talks/Tools/Slidy/> myself.

—Joel Salomon
May 04 2009
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 That hit me too. I've been using PP or OO "just because", never really 
 thinking. But there are some advantages to using "a straight, long 
 document".

 It's a /lot/ faster to create the presentation. You don't have to 
 split stuff into screenfulls (or fight with the presentation 
 software!) And once on stage, scrolling back is way easier and faster! 
 And you can sroll to exactly where you want, instead of to the nearest 
 screenful.

 Heh, now I can say "if it's good enough for Walter Bright on a big 
 butt guru forum, I can use it, too!"



 Everyone I talked to who was there didn't like it. 



I think there's the *subconscious* notion of "not respecting the 
audience by bothering to do a Proper Presentation". And they let it seep 
through, instead of pausing to think about the upsides. (The more we 
think we're Thinking Individuals, the less we're wary of such 
seep-through. I see it all the time with professionals.)

The "presentation software format" is more restrictive than we usually 
think. Everything has to be crunched to ridiculous screenfuls, mostly 
containing a couple of bullet items. And if you want the audience to 
follow the presentation "where you are" you have to do all kinds of 
one-at-a-time appearing bullets. It's really pathetic. (And I, at least, 
end up spending inordinate time figuring should they fly in from the 
left or rignt, or should they "emerge", or whatever.) Instead of simply 
scrolling them into view when needed.

Yes, PP &co make for an audience experience, but as the Columbia 
disaster taught NASA, it's not really the way to go.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Tufte)

PP is for M$ style sales pitches, not for disseminating serious content. 
IMNSHO, of course. (And the less there's bread and butter, the more you 
can decorate, having everybody exit, aahing and oohing all the way home.)

And how do you present conveniently a code snippet that exceeds a 
screenful? Like, if it's two screens long, do you split it into three 
screens, first half, middle part (showing latter half of first screen 
and first half of last screen), and second half? Instead of conveniently 
being able to scroll it as the discussion goes.

To prove my point, what if a lecturer 20 years ago had began by drawing 
a square on the chalkboard, and then only writing bullet items there, 
always erasing them before writing more. And leaving the rest of the 
chalkboard unused. (The rest of the chalkboard here represents scrolling 
back and forth the long document.)

If PP was the superior format, then all web pages would be just a few 
bullets and a <goto next page> button at the bottom.


 I've switched to OO Impress!



-- Damn, now I can't use Walter as an excuse to ditch PP. :-)
May 04 2009
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
flGeorg Wrede wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Everyone I talked to who was there didn't like it. 



 I think there's the *subconscious* notion of "not respecting the 
 audience by bothering to do a Proper Presentation". And they let it seep 
 through, instead of pausing to think about the upsides. (The more we 
 think we're Thinking Individuals, the less we're wary of such 
 seep-through. I see it all the time with professionals.)
 
 The "presentation software format" is more restrictive than we usually 
 think. Everything has to be crunched to ridiculous screenfuls, mostly 
 containing a couple of bullet items. And if you want the audience to 
 follow the presentation "where you are" you have to do all kinds of 
 one-at-a-time appearing bullets. It's really pathetic. (And I, at least, 
 end up spending inordinate time figuring should they fly in from the 
 left or rignt, or should they "emerge", or whatever.) Instead of simply 
 scrolling them into view when needed.
 
 Yes, PP &co make for an audience experience, but as the Columbia 
 disaster taught NASA, it's not really the way to go.
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Tufte)
 
 PP is for M$ style sales pitches, not for disseminating serious content. 
 IMNSHO, of course. (And the less there's bread and butter, the more you 
 can decorate, having everybody exit, aahing and oohing all the way home.)
 
 And how do you present conveniently a code snippet that exceeds a 
 screenful? Like, if it's two screens long, do you split it into three 
 screens, first half, middle part (showing latter half of first screen 
 and first half of last screen), and second half? Instead of conveniently 
 being able to scroll it as the discussion goes.
 
 To prove my point, what if a lecturer 20 years ago had began by drawing 
 a square on the chalkboard, and then only writing bullet items there, 
 always erasing them before writing more. And leaving the rest of the 
 chalkboard unused. (The rest of the chalkboard here represents scrolling 
 back and forth the long document.)
 
 If PP was the superior format, then all web pages would be just a few 
 bullets and a <goto next page> button at the bottom.



I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are 
limited in size and text content simply because there is so much 
information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So 
the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest 
one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the 
high-level points that the slide makes.

The slide is not meant to convey complex information with completeness. 
There is, for example, no hope in putting complex proofs or formulae on 
the slide. Instead, you give the conclusion and e.g. some top-level 
formula and point to the paper or whatever for people interested in 
details. The typical conference talk is 15-20 minutes regardless of the 
fields' complexity. The only hope an author can make is not to explain 
everything done, but instead to raise interest in reading the actual paper.

If a code snippet is larger than a screenful, then there is a problem 
with the presentation. Most people will tune out if they have to sit 
down and understand code while at the same time somebody is talking 
their ear off. Good code slides focus on one small but 
unusual/interesting/relevant code portion at a time, have the author 
explain what's going on, and then move to another portion of the code.

I've been in Walter's HTML-based talks. Yes, my perception was indeed 
that the talk was not properly prepared, although I knew it was. I have 
no idea why that is, though I can speculate that the scrolling style 
leads to looser presentations as the format does not force one to 
present ideas crisply, one at a time.

Anyway (and unrelated), IMHO a much worse mistake a speaker might do is 
to go over allocated time. I'm sure few mean it that way, but the 
perceived message is that they assume what they have to say is important 
and interesting enough to trump your and whatever events' schedule. My 
slides are mediocre, but I make a point at landing to a tee when it 
comes about time.

The second largest mistake (since you mention worrying about 
bulletpoints flying, oh boy) is to use effects without reason. It's 
distracting, devoid of any message, and so often completely distasteful, 
it's a safe bet to avoid them altogether. There is precisely one place 
where I saw good (actually great) presentation animation: in SIGGRAPH 
presentations. And of course they never use text effects a la Powerpoint!


Andrei
May 04 2009
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
I generally agree with Andrei (and he knows what he's doing, his talks 
are both entertaining and informative, several cuts above the usual ones 
I have to sit through).

I find after giving a presentation using a non-traditional format, that 
the non-traditional format becomes the topic of conversation, not the 
ideas in the presentation. It's distracting.


Some more issues:

o Since Impress is wysiwyg, I find it a lot easier to adjust things to 
fit on the screen. I had constant problems with the html one moving from 
one screen size to another.

o Impress has a one-button render as PDF, which is pretty handy.

o If you want to make handouts, print shops know how to deal with pdf. 
It just works, and you get good results.

o pdf renders a lot better than html. Why that should be, I don't know, 
but it is obviously better.

o being able to do boxes and arrows and such in Impress is much better 
than trying to do it in MS Paint and importing a gif.

o Of course I miss the D source code highlighting that Ddoc does.

o Impress doesn't seem to be able to do tables. Bummer.


I recently saw some ppt presentations where the presenter felt compelled 
to try out every single special effect ppt has. It was distracting and 
rather annoying, and certainly took away from his presentation. It 
looked like something his kid put together.

It makes one appreciate all the more a good one, like the ones Andrei 
and Scott Meyers put on.
May 04 2009
parent Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 ...
 
 o pdf renders a lot better than html. Why that should be, I don't know,
 but it is obviously better.



I could be the old Mac "feature".  From what I recall, Apple is
fanatical about the on-screen display of something matching, as closely
as possible, the on-page display.  This means that when they render
text, they render it without adjusting the glyphs to fit the pixel grid.
 This tends to lead to slightly blurrier text on-screen.

Since PDF is for print output, it probably does the same thing.  Firefox
would be using the system text libraries which fit glyphs to a pixel
grid, and often don't antialias at low point sizes.


 ...
 
 o Of course I miss the D source code highlighting that Ddoc does.



You should be able to copy+paste HTML with its formatting in-tact.


 o Impress doesn't seem to be able to do tables. Bummer.



I know that 3.0 does.  Just don't use too many of them, or Impress will
start coughing up blood.


 ...



  -- Daniel
May 04 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu:

 Slides are 
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much 
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing.



Of course mammal brains have limits, but such limits are always higher than the
amount of information shown in normal slides.



 I've been in Walter's HTML-based talks. Yes, my perception was indeed 
 that the talk was not properly prepared, although I knew it was. I have 
 no idea why that is, though I can speculate that the scrolling style 
 leads to looser presentations as the format does not force one to 
 present ideas crisply, one at a time.



I haven't appreciated much the html-based presentation, but probably some
compromise can be found between that and the standard information-starved
slides.
One problem with Walter's HTML-based talk was the long searching scroll up and
down. You can create separated pages in Html too. (in my presentations I
usually use pdf pages with a good amount of stuff. OpenOffice is able to output
such PDF files too).

Bye,
bearophile
May 04 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent dsimcha <dsimcha yahoo.com> writes:
== Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s article

 The slide is not meant to convey complex information with completeness.
 There is, for example, no hope in putting complex proofs or formulae on
 the slide.



Wow.  I really wish the rest of the Ph.D students in this world would learn
this.
May 04 2009
prev sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
== Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s article

 I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So
 the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest
 one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the
 high-level points that the slide makes.



For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:

1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.

I've seen a few raised eyebrows at times, but this is why I never write
anything down at a meeting or lecture I'm attending--it draws my focus
away from the material being presented.

What I really like is when a lecturer provides pre-written notes for their
presentation.  This way I can get everything out of the lecture itself, and
still have material to review later if I want to be reminded of some detail.
Other than a professor or two I've seen precious few people actually do
this however.
May 04 2009
next sibling parent superdan <super dan.org> writes:
Sean Kelly Wrote:


 == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s article

 I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So
 the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest
 one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the
 high-level points that the slide makes.



 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
 
 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.
 
 I've seen a few raised eyebrows at times, but this is why I never write
 anything down at a meeting or lecture I'm attending--it draws my focus
 away from the material being presented.



yeah da raised brow. fuck that shit. i took a pascal class at motherfuck
memorial comm college in b'more. i'd take a front seat & not write shit. teach
couldn't tell a lambda from da mole on his face anyway. at the finals i finish
first. the mo'fucker is like, 'well giving up already?' gave him mah look "if i
didn't need ur fucking grade my ankle would be up yer fucking asshole by now,
asshole'. to his credit the mo'fucker had enough decency left to fuckin'
apologize. so i tell him he had a bug in problem 4 & went mah way.
May 04 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
 
 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.



Eh, I found that the physical act of taking notes tended to fix it in my 
brain. Furthermore, at Caltech there tended to be no textbook and no 
handouts, so you went by your notes. Exams were open-note, too. So 
taking good notes was indispensible.
May 04 2009
parent Lutger <lutger.blijdestijn gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Sean Kelly wrote:

 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
 
 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.



 Eh, I found that the physical act of taking notes tended to fix it in my
 brain. Furthermore, at Caltech there tended to be no textbook and no
 handouts, so you went by your notes. Exams were open-note, too. So
 taking good notes was indispensible.



I have the same experience. Often I took notes but discarded them later. The 
act of writing things down helps to remember and focus on the important 
things, since you are forced to be selective. It takes a bit of practice to 
be able to listen attentively and write at the same time though. Some people 
just try to write everything down frantically even if they don't understand 
it - that just doesn't help.
May 07 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.com> writes:
On 2009-05-04 14:47:10 -0400, Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> said:


 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
 
 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.
 
 I've seen a few raised eyebrows at times, but this is why I never write
 anything down at a meeting or lecture I'm attending--it draws my focus
 away from the material being presented.
 
 What I really like is when a lecturer provides pre-written notes for their
 presentation.  This way I can get everything out of the lecture itself, and
 still have material to review later if I want to be reminded of some detail.
 Other than a professor or two I've seen precious few people actually do
 this however.



Strangely enough, I was doing this most of the time during lectures at 
university. I was taking notes, but only scarcely, and often not at all 
in the many courses where there was enough supporting material.


-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.fortin michelf.com
http://michelf.com/
May 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones
where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the
lecturer was trying to teach us.

Force students to take notes and the only thing they'll learn is how to
write fast.

  -- Daniel
May 05 2009
next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones
 where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the
 lecturer was trying to teach us.
 
 Force students to take notes and the only thing they'll learn is how to
 write fast.



The first university lecture I attended was boring. There was a piece of 
paper circulating, and it read "a lecture is where the information goes 
from the lecturer to the students' notes, without going through either's 
head."

Since, I've made a point of trying to lecture so the info at least goes 
through my head. :-)
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
== Quote from Daniel de Kok (me danieldk.org)'s article

 On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Keep
 <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> wrote:

 The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones
 where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the
 lecturer was trying to teach us.



 for the course is not complete and that should be addressed. A course
 should bring a student up to the level where he or she can read and
 understand course material without too much effort.



Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't
presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in my
experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously rather than
engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I think it's a
counterproductive strategy.

Often in universities these days there are professional note takers as
well, and a student can pay a classmate for copies of their notes.  My
wife found this useful because various physical issues made it difficult
for her to sit at a desk and write for an hour straight, though I'd
probably be inclined to do the same simply so I could pay attention.

As for writing aiding retention in general, I've found that to be true
but it's only something I ever did while studying (taking notes on
reading or re-writing notes relevant for an exam).  If I'm taking
notes in class the information seems to pass through my ears to
the page without ever coming in contact with my brain.
May 05 2009
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't
 presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in my
 experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously rather than
 engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I think it's a
 counterproductive strategy.



In my experience, the lack of a textbook for the material was mostly the 
result of the professor generating his own material and thinking the 
existing textbooks were all inadequate.
May 05 2009
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,


 Sean Kelly wrote:
 

 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that
 isn't presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.
 But in my experience it also creates a class that takes notes
 furiously rather than engaging the material and asking questions.
 Overall, I think it's a counterproductive strategy.
 



 the result of the professor generating his own material and thinking
 the existing textbooks were all inadequate.
 



The next step (down) from that is the class where the professor wrote the 
text book. That's a bad thing because if you don't understand the lecture, 
the book won't help
May 05 2009
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
== Quote from BCS (ao pathlink.com)'s article

 Reply to Walter,

 Sean Kelly wrote:


 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that
 isn't presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.
 But in my experience it also creates a class that takes notes
 furiously rather than engaging the material and asking questions.
 Overall, I think it's a counterproductive strategy.



 the result of the professor generating his own material and thinking
 the existing textbooks were all inadequate.



 text book. That's a bad thing because if you don't understand the lecture,
 the book won't help



My Physics courses were like this, and it was incredibly frustrating.  I think
it was probably the reason that Physics at my Uni was reputed to be so
difficult.
May 05 2009
parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 == Quote from BCS (ao pathlink.com)'s article

 Reply to Walter,

 Sean Kelly wrote:


 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that
 isn't presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.
 But in my experience it also creates a class that takes notes
 furiously rather than engaging the material and asking questions.
 Overall, I think it's a counterproductive strategy.



 the result of the professor generating his own material and thinking
 the existing textbooks were all inadequate.



 text book. That's a bad thing because if you don't understand the lecture,
 the book won't help



 My Physics courses were like this, and it was incredibly frustrating.  I think
 it was probably the reason that Physics at my Uni was reputed to be so
 difficult.



My College Physics teacher wrote our book. I never found it good. But 
then, he was a bodybuilder. Once he had connected a heavy iron core coil 
in series with a lamp and a battery. And he had an iron anchor, which he 
removed from the coil. The lamp blew, and he said "gee, what a 
coincidence". I remarked dryly, "that's what you get for removing the 
anchor". From that day on, he hated me. Later in a big exam, he came to 
my desk and said "well, einstein, just see to it that you get full 
points". Thaks a lot.
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Sean,



 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't
 presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in
 my experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously
 rather than engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I
 think it's a counterproductive strategy.



At the other end, if the professor *only* lectures on what's in the book, 
what are they being paid for? Just talking? Better would be for the professor 
to lecture on application, the what/why (and not the how), how ideas are 
related, anecdotes and the like.
May 05 2009
next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
BCS:

 At the other end, if the professor *only* lectures on what's in the book, 
 what are they being paid for? Just talking? Better would be for the professor 
 to lecture on application, the what/why (and not the how), how ideas are 
 related, anecdotes and the like.



Books are meant to be read before taking the lesson.
Among other things, a teacher in science/technical fields can:
- help students understand difficult concepts;
- give problems that require the student to invent some new idea or be creative;
- answer student questions.

Bye,
bearophile
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent dsimcha <dsimcha yahoo.com> writes:
== Quote from BCS (ao pathlink.com)'s article

 Reply to Sean,

 Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't
 presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in
 my experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously
 rather than engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I
 think it's a counterproductive strategy.



 what are they being paid for? Just talking? Better would be for the professor
 to lecture on application, the what/why (and not the how), how ideas are
 related, anecdotes and the like.



Exactly my feelings.  Reading the book at one's own pace is a good way to get
all
the nitty-gritty technical details down.  What lecture should be for is
understanding the stuff at a higher level.  This includes asking questions,
discussions, broad overviews to help students see the forest instead of just the
trees, etc.  I tend to feel that huge lecture hall lectures, were any
interactiveness is impractical, are largely a waste of time unless the lecturer
is
exceptionally engaging and/or you have enough background in the topic already
that
you're mostly interested in understanding another point of view on the subject
rather than learning it for the first time.
May 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Sean,


 == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s
 article
 

 I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing.
 So the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to
 rest one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to
 the high-level points that the slide makes.
 



 
 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said. 2. Not take
 any notes and remember the lecture.
 
 I've seen a few raised eyebrows at times, but this is why I never
 write anything down at a meeting or lecture I'm attending--it draws my
 focus away from the material being presented.
 
 What I really like is when a lecturer provides pre-written notes for
 their
 presentation.  This way I can get everything out of the lecture
 itself, and
 still have material to review later if I want to be reminded of some
 detail.
 Other than a professor or two I've seen precious few people actually
 do
 this however.



I also find that taking notes isn't much use to me. I can't take good enough 
notes to get everything out of them, so whatever I don't remember outright, 
I need to be able to read out of the text. Mostly I end up remembering what 
was taught (as in a list of topics) and how they relate and then dig out 
the textbook (or wikipidia) for the details. This works because, if I known 
what questions to ask and topics to Google, I can almost always figure things 
out my self .

After 6 years of collage, all the notes I have taken could fit in a 1.5 inch 
binder
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Simen Kjaeraas wrote:

 On Mon, 04 May 2009 20:47:10 +0200, Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> 
 wrote:
 

 == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s 
 article

 I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So
 the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest
 one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the
 high-level points that the slide makes.



 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:

 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.



 I'm fond of using the third option: Not take notes unless something
 unexpected pops up.
 I tend to use notes for remembering things I will look up later,
 not for learning directly.



I take notes so that I will remember what was said five minutes prior. I 
never review notes after the lecture, but during, it helps me work 
through the examples given, at my own rate, and change the notation used.

For example, I was at a compilers lecture and took twenty minutes to 
understand a parsing example. Then I changed the notation slightly in my 
notes (the professor was using states 1, 2, 3, ... and rules 1, 2, 3, 
...; I changed the states to be S1, S2, S3, ... and the rules to be R1, 
R2, R3, ...) and suddenly everything became a lot clearer.
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
== Quote from Georg Wrede (georg.wrede iki.fi)'s article

 The "presentation software format" is more restrictive than we usually
 think. Everything has to be crunched to ridiculous screenfuls, mostly
 containing a couple of bullet items. And if you want the audience to
 follow the presentation "where you are" you have to do all kinds of
 one-at-a-time appearing bullets. It's really pathetic. (And I, at least,
 end up spending inordinate time figuring should they fly in from the
 left or rignt, or should they "emerge", or whatever.) Instead of simply
 scrolling them into view when needed.




 PP is for M$ style sales pitches, not for disseminating serious content.
 IMNSHO, of course. (And the less there's bread and butter, the more you
 can decorate, having everybody exit, aahing and oohing all the way home.)
 And how do you present conveniently a code snippet that exceeds a
 screenful?



When I went back to finish my degree I was forced to take a Public Speaking
course, and the course basically had one simple message:

The likelihood that an audience will either get lost or bored is an exponential
function of the complexity of the presentation.  As much as I despise the PP-
based presentation format, it does force the speaker to simplify things as
much as possible.
May 04 2009
parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 == Quote from Georg Wrede (georg.wrede iki.fi)'s article

 The "presentation software format" is more restrictive than we usually
 think. Everything has to be crunched to ridiculous screenfuls, mostly
 containing a couple of bullet items. And if you want the audience to
 follow the presentation "where you are" you have to do all kinds of
 one-at-a-time appearing bullets. It's really pathetic. (And I, at least,
 end up spending inordinate time figuring should they fly in from the
 left or rignt, or should they "emerge", or whatever.) Instead of simply
 scrolling them into view when needed.




 PP is for M$ style sales pitches, not for disseminating serious content.
 IMNSHO, of course. (And the less there's bread and butter, the more you
 can decorate, having everybody exit, aahing and oohing all the way home.)
 And how do you present conveniently a code snippet that exceeds a
 screenful?



 When I went back to finish my degree I was forced to take a Public Speaking
 course, and the course basically had one simple message:
 
 The likelihood that an audience will either get lost or bored is an exponential
 function of the complexity of the presentation.  As much as I despise the PP-
 based presentation format, it does force the speaker to simplify things as
 much as possible.



That's certainly true with non-techie audiences. I wish we had had 
speaking classes when I went to school. The first time I gave a lecture 
at the university, my hands trembled visibly on the OH.
May 04 2009
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 
 That's certainly true with non-techie audiences. I wish we had had 
 speaking classes when I went to school. The first time I gave a lecture 
 at the university, my hands trembled visibly on the OH.



I'm fine if I can just sit down and talk, but if I have to stand in 
front of people I still get nervous and scattered.  I was told my talk 
at the D conference actually went reasonably well, but I forgot or 
missed about half the points I'd meant to cover out of sheer terror :-)

During a public speaking course in high school one of our lectures was 
supposed to be a published work of some sort, so I did the part of a 
evangelical preacher in a Steven King novel.  It was a breeze to do and 
I had a lot of fun with it, playing with pace and tone.  Something about 
the fact that I was "acting" instead of simply speaking as myself made 
all the difference in the world.  If I had to give talks regularly I'd 
probably prepare them pretty much word for word just to feel more like I 
was doing this, at least until I got more comfortable with speaking.
May 04 2009
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 I'm fine if I can just sit down and talk, but if I have to stand in 
 front of people I still get nervous and scattered.  I was told my talk 
 at the D conference actually went reasonably well, but I forgot or 
 missed about half the points I'd meant to cover out of sheer terror :-)



Do a few more and the terror will pass. I promise!
May 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Brad Roberts:

 I've now done enough presentations that the terror has subsided
 and I can give a decent talk.  It took years and lots of terror though.



That's why you have to start giving presentations of your ideas/stories from
the age of about 6 or so :-)
I think in USA some schools use something named "show & tell" that also has the
purpose to help children go past that terror very early...
Yep, Wikipedia confirms that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_and_tell

Bye,
bearophile
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 That's certainly true with non-techie audiences. I wish we had had 
 speaking classes when I went to school. The first time I gave a 
 lecture at the university, my hands trembled visibly on the OH.



 I'm fine if I can just sit down and talk, but if I have to stand in 
 front of people I still get nervous and scattered.  I was told my talk 
 at the D conference actually went reasonably well, but I forgot or 
 missed about half the points I'd meant to cover out of sheer terror :-)
 
 During a public speaking course in high school one of our lectures was 
 supposed to be a published work of some sort, so I did the part of a 
 evangelical preacher in a Steven King novel.  It was a breeze to do and 
 I had a lot of fun with it, playing with pace and tone.  Something about 
 the fact that I was "acting" instead of simply speaking as myself made 
 all the difference in the world.  If I had to give talks regularly I'd 
 probably prepare them pretty much word for word just to feel more like I 
 was doing this, at least until I got more comfortable with speaking.



Some people choose to consider their on-stage persona as a role they 
play when in public. Whether that's good or not, I dont know. Many of 
those who've made themselves into a brand name, seem to do this.

I was always terrible at memorization. I couldn't learn my lines in 
school plays, and once I starred in an educational movie. The director 
was pulling his hair because I couldn't remember 15 secs of lines at a 
time. If I make a presentation, I simply have to get familiar with the 
subject, and then have the slides, like, be my cheat sheet. I always 
envied the guys (often sales reps, or evangelists), who did the same 
thing word-for-word, even if I saw them again after six months.

When I had to give the same lecture several times over (like for 1st 
year students, who were too many to fit the auditorium), the first 
lecture went always well, the second was awful, the third reasonable, 
and the fourth was the best. Funny pattern.

Somebody told me to rehearse by lecturing to a teddy bear, but I felt 
stupid even imagining doing it. Still, finishing on time never was a 
challenge for me.
May 05 2009
next sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Georg,



 I was always terrible at memorization. I couldn't learn my lines in
 school plays, and once I starred in an educational movie. The director
 was pulling his hair because I couldn't remember 15 secs of lines at a
 time. If I make a presentation, I simply have to get familiar with the
 subject, and then have the slides, like, be my cheat sheet. I always
 envied the guys (often sales reps, or evangelists), who did the same
 thing word-for-word, even if I saw them again after six months.



I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can read 
it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup with two screens 
for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with my notes (in inch high 
font) and thumbnails of the following slides.
May 05 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can 
 read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup with 
 two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with my 
 notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following slides.



I.e. a teleprompter!
May 05 2009
next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can 
 read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup 
 with two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with 
 my notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following slides.






Oh, that should be the default! Since the day the fist laptop came that 
shows a 2nd screen (instead of a copy), that should be standard issue 
with presentation software.


 I.e. a teleprompter!



Well, yeah. But using them so that the speech still sounds fresh really 
requires one to know the speech almost by heart. And a lot of practicing 
each speech, with live assistants.
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,


 BCS wrote:
 

 I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can
 read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup
 with two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one
 with my notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following
 slides.
 



 



NO! It takes about 10 (or 100) times a much work to get a speech down word 
for word. I just want to have a better handle on context and more notes than 
I get with the setups I've used.
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Georg,
 
 

 I was always terrible at memorization. I couldn't learn my lines in
 school plays, and once I starred in an educational movie. The director
 was pulling his hair because I couldn't remember 15 secs of lines at a
 time. If I make a presentation, I simply have to get familiar with the
 subject, and then have the slides, like, be my cheat sheet. I always
 envied the guys (often sales reps, or evangelists), who did the same
 thing word-for-word, even if I saw them again after six months.



 I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can
 read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup with
 two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with my
 notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following slides.



If you haven't before, check out presenter mode in powerpoint.  It's pretty much
what you just described.  Only takes two screens, one the projector and the
other your laptop's display.  The laptop display has 3 panes: a sliding window
of the slides; the current slide; and your notes.

Later,
Brad
May 05 2009
parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Brad,


 BCS wrote:
 

 I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can
 read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup
 with two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one
 with my notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following
 slides.
 



 pretty much what you just described.  Only takes two screens, one the
 projector and the other your laptop's display.  The laptop display has
 3 panes: a sliding window of the slides; the current slide; and your
 notes.
 
 Later,
 Brad



I've tried it, I actually prefer the normal PP edit screen as it has more 
info, but I can't ever seem to get enough info on the screen. Maybe I just 
need a bigger screen (like 24-30"). Even so I still want a clone of the
projector 
on a screen all by its self.
May 06 2009
prev sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Arild Boes wrote:

 Here’s the link:
 
 http://www.vimeo.com/4333802
 



One thing that I thought could have been explained was that this:


 T increment(T)(T x)
 {
     return x + 1;
 }

 auto j = increment(3);



Is actually this:


 template increment(T)
 {
     T increment(T x)
     {
         return x + 1;
     }
 }

 auto j = increment!(typeof(3)).increment(3);



That explains how the template member promotion works AND explains why
the return type of template functions can use the template argument.

Still watching and enjoying it.  :)

  -- Daniel
Apr 27 2009
parent Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Awww!  I wanna see how it ends!

:D

  -- Daniel
Apr 27 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Daniel de Kok <me danieldk.org> writes:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Keep
<daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> wrote:

 The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones
 where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the
 lecturer was trying to teach us.



Indeed, if writing down notes is required, then the reading material
for the course is not complete and that should be addressed. A course
should bring a student up to the level where he or she can read and
understand course material without too much effort.

Take care,
Daniel
May 05 2009
prev sibling parent "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 04 May 2009 20:47:10 +0200, Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> wrote:


 == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s  
 article

 I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
 limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
 information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So
 the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest
 one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the
 high-level points that the slide makes.



 For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:

 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.



I'm fond of using the third option: Not take notes unless something
unexpected pops up.
I tend to use notes for remembering things I will look up later,
not for learning directly.

--
  Simen
May 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Tim M" <a b.com> writes:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:50:51 +1300, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 http://www.nwcpp.org/




Hi walter on 20/21 of december 2008 I created a post on digitalmars.D  
"Feature request: getMembers". It never got repplied to. Have you  
implemented this in D2 yet?
Jan 22 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Tim M wrote:

 On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:50:51 +1300, Walter Bright 
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 

 http://www.nwcpp.org/



 
 Hi walter on 20/21 of december 2008 I created a post on digitalmars.D 
 "Feature request: getMembers". It never got repplied to. Have you 
 implemented this in D2 yet?



Unfortunately, there's a very long list of things to be implemented.
Jan 22 2009
prev sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 That's certainly true with non-techie audiences. I wish we had had
 speaking classes when I went to school. The first time I gave a
 lecture at the university, my hands trembled visibly on the OH.



 I'm fine if I can just sit down and talk, but if I have to stand in
 front of people I still get nervous and scattered.  I was told my talk
 at the D conference actually went reasonably well, but I forgot or
 missed about half the points I'd meant to cover out of sheer terror :-)
 
 During a public speaking course in high school one of our lectures was
 supposed to be a published work of some sort, so I did the part of a
 evangelical preacher in a Steven King novel.  It was a breeze to do and
 I had a lot of fun with it, playing with pace and tone.  Something about
 the fact that I was "acting" instead of simply speaking as myself made
 all the difference in the world.  If I had to give talks regularly I'd
 probably prepare them pretty much word for word just to feel more like I
 was doing this, at least until I got more comfortable with speaking.



Most of that is just repetition.  I used to be scared as hell.. just rushed
through whatever I had to tell people and finish as fast as I could.  I've now
done enough presentations that the terror has subsided and I can give a decent
talk.  It took years and lots of terror though.

Later,
Brad
May 04 2009