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digitalmars.D - Quo vadis, D2? Thoughts on the D library ecosystem.

reply David Nadlinger <see klickverbot.at> writes:
While lying in the bed with fever yesterday (so please excuse any 
careless mistakes), I was pondering a bit about the current discussions 
regarding Phobos additions, package management, etc. It occurred to me 
that there is a central unanswered question, which I think deserves to 
be broadly discussed right now.

But first, let me start out by describing how I see current situation 
regarding D2. Leaving aside a few minor things like  property 
enforcement or the recent suggestions about a new alias syntax, the 
language is fairly stable and critical bugs in DMD 2 are not frequent 
enough to make it completely unusable for day-to-day development 
anymore. Of course, there is still a large way to go for the D toolchain 
(with the ideal result being a rock-solid self-hosting compiler 
front-end, usable as a library as well), but in a sense, we are more or 
less at the end of a certain stage of D2 development.

I think most of you would agree with me if I say that the main goal for 
D2 right now should be to build a vibrant library ecosystem around the 
language, to foster adoption in real-world applications. There has been 
a number of related discussions recently, but as mentioned above, I 
think there is a central question:

Have we reached the critical mass yet where it makes sense to split the 
effort in a number of smaller library projects, or are we off better 
with concentrating on a central, comprehensive standard library 
(Phobos), considering the current community size?

I do not really have an answer to this question, but here are a few 
thoughts on the topic, which might also help to make clearer what I mean:

I think that adopting a Boost-like review process for Phobos has 
certainly been a clever and valuable move, for more than one reason. 
First, together with the move to Git, it has helped to reinforce the 
point that D2 and Phobos are open to contributions from everyone, given 
that they meet certain quality standards. Second, it certainly boosts 
code quality of further standard library additions, which had been a 
problem for some parts in the past (at least from my point of view, no 
offense intended). Third, and this overlaps with another point below, I 
think that the quality improvements will also help to reduce bit rot, 
which has traditionally been a problem with D libraries.

But however good a fit this model is for the standard library, I think 
it is no silver bullet either. There are small, one-off style projects, 
arising from a central need, where the amount of time needed to get the 
code through the whole review process is prohibitive – even if the code 
quality was high enough –, but the result is still usable for the wide 
public. Common examples for this would be low-level wrappers for C 
libraries, although they don't really qualify for inclusion into Phobos 
for other reasons (often, another wrapper layer is needed to be usable 
with common D idioms). Also, people new to the language might be scared 
away by the mere thought of contributing to a standard library. How to 
make sure that these libraries are not forgotten? Maybe a central 
package system with SCM (Git, …) integration can help here?

And, which brings me to the next point, how to fight the unfavorable 
outcome of having a huge inscrutable pile of half-finished bit-rotten 
code, a problem that DSource is currently experiencing? A central, 
well-maintained standard library effort with a wider scope could 
certainly help to reduce this problem, at least from the (D) user side, 
but on the other hand, larger amounts of code de facto becoming 
unmaintained would be a problem for it as well.

Should we build something like a staging area, an incubator for 
community contributions not taken yet through formal review, but of 
interest for a wider audience? What about the etc.* package – would it 
be an option to expand it into such an incubation area? If not, what 
should it evolve into – a collection of C-level library bindings (see 
the recent discussion on SQLite bindings started by David Simcha)? Who 
will take care of the maintenance duties?

Looking forward to a stimulating discussion,
David
Mar 19 2011
next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
David Nadlinger Wrote:

 Should we build something like a staging area, an incubator for 
 community contributions not taken yet through formal review, but of 
 interest for a wider audience? What about the etc.* package – would it 
 be an option to expand it into such an incubation area? If not, what 
 should it evolve into – a collection of C-level library bindings (see 
 the recent discussion on SQLite bindings started by David Simcha)? Who 
 will take care of the maintenance duties?

While growing the standard library is great, or developing a packaging system for D code is all great stuff. We really need a good central search repository. Something that gives maintenance,stability, and is search able by category. That said, their really isn't a great number of mature, ready to use libraries yet. So why not just use what we already have, and keep it updated with these candidate libraries: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DevelopmentWithD/Libraries
Mar 19 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday 19 March 2011 07:43:37 David Nadlinger wrote:
 While lying in the bed with fever yesterday (so please excuse any
 careless mistakes), I was pondering a bit about the current discussions
 regarding Phobos additions, package management, etc. It occurred to me
 that there is a central unanswered question, which I think deserves to
 be broadly discussed right now.
=20
 But first, let me start out by describing how I see current situation
 regarding D2. Leaving aside a few minor things like  property
 enforcement or the recent suggestions about a new alias syntax, the
 language is fairly stable and critical bugs in DMD 2 are not frequent
 enough to make it completely unusable for day-to-day development
 anymore. Of course, there is still a large way to go for the D toolchain
 (with the ideal result being a rock-solid self-hosting compiler
 front-end, usable as a library as well), but in a sense, we are more or
 less at the end of a certain stage of D2 development.
=20
 I think most of you would agree with me if I say that the main goal for
 D2 right now should be to build a vibrant library ecosystem around the
 language, to foster adoption in real-world applications. There has been
 a number of related discussions recently, but as mentioned above, I
 think there is a central question:
=20
 Have we reached the critical mass yet where it makes sense to split the
 effort in a number of smaller library projects, or are we off better
 with concentrating on a central, comprehensive standard library
 (Phobos), considering the current community size?
=20
 I do not really have an answer to this question, but here are a few
 thoughts on the topic, which might also help to make clearer what I mean:
=20
 I think that adopting a Boost-like review process for Phobos has
 certainly been a clever and valuable move, for more than one reason.
 First, together with the move to Git, it has helped to reinforce the
 point that D2 and Phobos are open to contributions from everyone, given
 that they meet certain quality standards. Second, it certainly boosts
 code quality of further standard library additions, which had been a
 problem for some parts in the past (at least from my point of view, no
 offense intended). Third, and this overlaps with another point below, I
 think that the quality improvements will also help to reduce bit rot,
 which has traditionally been a problem with D libraries.
=20
 But however good a fit this model is for the standard library, I think
 it is no silver bullet either. There are small, one-off style projects,
 arising from a central need, where the amount of time needed to get the
 code through the whole review process is prohibitive =E2=80=93 even if th=

 quality was high enough =E2=80=93, but the result is still usable for the=

 public. Common examples for this would be low-level wrappers for C
 libraries, although they don't really qualify for inclusion into Phobos
 for other reasons (often, another wrapper layer is needed to be usable
 with common D idioms). Also, people new to the language might be scared
 away by the mere thought of contributing to a standard library. How to
 make sure that these libraries are not forgotten? Maybe a central
 package system with SCM (Git, =E2=80=A6) integration can help here?
=20
 And, which brings me to the next point, how to fight the unfavorable
 outcome of having a huge inscrutable pile of half-finished bit-rotten
 code, a problem that DSource is currently experiencing? A central,
 well-maintained standard library effort with a wider scope could
 certainly help to reduce this problem, at least from the (D) user side,
 but on the other hand, larger amounts of code de facto becoming
 unmaintained would be a problem for it as well.
=20
 Should we build something like a staging area, an incubator for
 community contributions not taken yet through formal review, but of
 interest for a wider audience? What about the etc.* package =E2=80=93 wou=

 be an option to expand it into such an incubation area? If not, what
 should it evolve into =E2=80=93 a collection of C-level library bindings =

 the recent discussion on SQLite bindings started by David Simcha)? Who
 will take care of the maintenance duties?
=20
 Looking forward to a stimulating discussion,
 David

There has been some discussion in the past of creating an incubator project= of=20 sorts where code which may or may not make it into Phobos can be put so tha= t it=20 can develop and evolve with people actually using it - maybe even using it= =20 heavily - before it tried to get into Phobos. Once a library was considered= =20 mature enough, it could go through the Phobos review process and attempt to= get=20 into the standard library. If it succeeded, then, in theory, we'd have a we= ll- used and well-tested library added to Phobos. If it failed, it would still = be=20 around for people to use, and it could continue to be used and evolve - eit= her=20 to make a later attempt at inclusion in Phobos or to simply live as a 3rd p= arty=20 library that folks find useful but isn't appropriate for inclusion in the=20 standard library for one reason or another. Exactly what the best way to do all this would be, I don't know, but it wou= ld=20 need to be far better manage than the current situation with dsource. The=20 current activity level of a project would need to clear, as well as how com= plete=20 and stable it's considered. DSource is probably the best place to host such= a=20 project, but obviously dsource would have to be cleaned up first, and it wo= uld=20 need someone who was willing to spearhead the effort and manage it. Otherwi= se,=20 we'll just end up with a situation similar to what dsource is now. Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this. T= hey=20 need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would resu= lt in=20 a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and t= hen=20 go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The=20 "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far, even i= f=20 everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort t= o do=20 it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only so man= y=20 people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot to be= done,=20 and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is what= =20 they're generally working on. So, I definitely think that an incubation project is a great idea. It has b= een=20 proposed before. However, unless someone steps up to the plate and takes on= =20 setting it up and organizing it, it's not going to happen. =2D Jonathan M Davis
Mar 19 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/19/2011 06:12 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this. They
 need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would result
in
 a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and then
 go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The
 "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far, even if
 everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort to do
 it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only so many
 people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot to be
done,
 and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is what
 they're generally working on.

Words of the wise. It's like hearing a woman for the laundry list of stuff she'd like in a man and compare (and contrast) that with the kind of man she does respond to. The "desirable stuff" list is built using a rational response, whereas in reality it's the emotional response that guides decisions. We hackers seem to use a similar process when deciding what to work on :o). That's in particular why we all know e.g. networking is a necessity, but instead we work on various other stuff. The person who has an emotional positive response for networking code hasn't showed up yet - or just has in the person of Jonas. Andrei
Mar 19 2011
parent David Nadlinger <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On 3/20/11 12:50 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 03/19/2011 06:12 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on
 this. They
 need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would
 result in
 a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here
 and then
 go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The
 "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far,
 even if
 everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and
 effort to do
 it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only
 so many
 people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot
 to be done,
 and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is
 what
 they're generally working on.

Words of the wise.

I am well aware of the fact that the way from an idea or even a concrete proposal to its implementation can be long, particularly so in an open source community where you have to hope that someone steps forward and voluntarily invests a considerable amount of his/her spare time on it. But still, it is just as important to get from an assorted collection of vague ideas to an actual decision/proposal, even more so with a problem like this, which isn't about hacking up some code, but about us as a community deciding how we want to manage ourselves to get forward efficiently: As Jonathan mentioned, there already were a couple of posts on the newsgroup about a possible incubation area in the last months, for example [1] and [2], which corroborates the fact that we need to do something about this. However, it seems that this threads didn't even get from the »I wonder whether this would be a good idea« to the »It would be great to have this, volunteers wanted« phase. Also, let's not forget that we already have a D-specific project hosting solution, DSource, yet everyone is bitching about it – I don't want to exclude myself here, and I think there are valid reasons for doing so. My secret evil master plan behind starting this thread was: - Start a general discussion about the topic to collect existing ideas. - Condense the opinions into a concrete proposal and put it up for discussion and sorting out the details. - Work with a few other interested people (I hope there are some) on actually implement the proposal(s) and improve the current situation. ;) I'll elaborate on my ideas of a viable incubation platform/DSource 2.0 in another post… David [1] http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Phobos_incubator_project_115387.html [2] http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Is_this_a_viable_effort_The_DRY_principle_community-wide_126036.html
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-03-20 00:12, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Saturday 19 March 2011 07:43:37 David Nadlinger wrote:
 While lying in the bed with fever yesterday (so please excuse any
 careless mistakes), I was pondering a bit about the current discussions
 regarding Phobos additions, package management, etc. It occurred to me
 that there is a central unanswered question, which I think deserves to
 be broadly discussed right now.

 But first, let me start out by describing how I see current situation
 regarding D2. Leaving aside a few minor things like  property
 enforcement or the recent suggestions about a new alias syntax, the
 language is fairly stable and critical bugs in DMD 2 are not frequent
 enough to make it completely unusable for day-to-day development
 anymore. Of course, there is still a large way to go for the D toolchain
 (with the ideal result being a rock-solid self-hosting compiler
 front-end, usable as a library as well), but in a sense, we are more or
 less at the end of a certain stage of D2 development.

 I think most of you would agree with me if I say that the main goal for
 D2 right now should be to build a vibrant library ecosystem around the
 language, to foster adoption in real-world applications. There has been
 a number of related discussions recently, but as mentioned above, I
 think there is a central question:

 Have we reached the critical mass yet where it makes sense to split the
 effort in a number of smaller library projects, or are we off better
 with concentrating on a central, comprehensive standard library
 (Phobos), considering the current community size?

 I do not really have an answer to this question, but here are a few
 thoughts on the topic, which might also help to make clearer what I mean:

 I think that adopting a Boost-like review process for Phobos has
 certainly been a clever and valuable move, for more than one reason.
 First, together with the move to Git, it has helped to reinforce the
 point that D2 and Phobos are open to contributions from everyone, given
 that they meet certain quality standards. Second, it certainly boosts
 code quality of further standard library additions, which had been a
 problem for some parts in the past (at least from my point of view, no
 offense intended). Third, and this overlaps with another point below, I
 think that the quality improvements will also help to reduce bit rot,
 which has traditionally been a problem with D libraries.

 But however good a fit this model is for the standard library, I think
 it is no silver bullet either. There are small, one-off style projects,
 arising from a central need, where the amount of time needed to get the
 code through the whole review process is prohibitive – even if the code
 quality was high enough –, but the result is still usable for the wide
 public. Common examples for this would be low-level wrappers for C
 libraries, although they don't really qualify for inclusion into Phobos
 for other reasons (often, another wrapper layer is needed to be usable
 with common D idioms). Also, people new to the language might be scared
 away by the mere thought of contributing to a standard library. How to
 make sure that these libraries are not forgotten? Maybe a central
 package system with SCM (Git, …) integration can help here?

 And, which brings me to the next point, how to fight the unfavorable
 outcome of having a huge inscrutable pile of half-finished bit-rotten
 code, a problem that DSource is currently experiencing? A central,
 well-maintained standard library effort with a wider scope could
 certainly help to reduce this problem, at least from the (D) user side,
 but on the other hand, larger amounts of code de facto becoming
 unmaintained would be a problem for it as well.

 Should we build something like a staging area, an incubator for
 community contributions not taken yet through formal review, but of
 interest for a wider audience? What about the etc.* package – would it
 be an option to expand it into such an incubation area? If not, what
 should it evolve into – a collection of C-level library bindings (see
 the recent discussion on SQLite bindings started by David Simcha)? Who
 will take care of the maintenance duties?

 Looking forward to a stimulating discussion,
 David

There has been some discussion in the past of creating an incubator project of sorts where code which may or may not make it into Phobos can be put so that it can develop and evolve with people actually using it - maybe even using it heavily - before it tried to get into Phobos. Once a library was considered mature enough, it could go through the Phobos review process and attempt to get into the standard library. If it succeeded, then, in theory, we'd have a well- used and well-tested library added to Phobos. If it failed, it would still be around for people to use, and it could continue to be used and evolve - either to make a later attempt at inclusion in Phobos or to simply live as a 3rd party library that folks find useful but isn't appropriate for inclusion in the standard library for one reason or another. Exactly what the best way to do all this would be, I don't know, but it would need to be far better manage than the current situation with dsource. The current activity level of a project would need to clear, as well as how complete and stable it's considered. DSource is probably the best place to host such a project, but obviously dsource would have to be cleaned up first, and it would need someone who was willing to spearhead the effort and manage it. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a situation similar to what dsource is now. Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this. They need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would result in a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and then go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far, even if everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort to do it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only so many people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot to be done, and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is what they're generally working on. So, I definitely think that an incubation project is a great idea. It has been proposed before. However, unless someone steps up to the plate and takes on setting it up and organizing it, it's not going to happen. - Jonathan M Davis

I think if we get a good package management tool for D it doesn't matter so much if a library is included in Phobos or not. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Mar 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--20cf3078131e560598049ee26cc9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>wrote:

 Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this.
 They
 need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would
 result in
 a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and
 then
 go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The
 "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far, even
 if
 everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort
 to do
 it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only so
 many
 people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot to be
 done,
 and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is what
 they're generally working on.


 - Jonathan M Davis

It's not that someone needs to take the initiative, it's just that there aren't that many D developers. I hope things improve once GDC is officially part of GCC and D becomes available on all GNU/Linux OSs. Another thing that might need to happen is for the D project to join The Software Freedome Conservancy (SFC) or form its own non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, similar to Python Software Foundation. But that's just and I could be wrong. --20cf3078131e560598049ee26cc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Jonatha= n M Davis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmdavisProg gmx.com">jmda= visProg gmx.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 20= 4); padding-left: 1ex;"> <br> Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this. T= hey<br> need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would resu= lt in<br> a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and t= hen<br> go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The<br=

t very far, even if<br> everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort t= o do<br> it, and while people may think that it&#39;s a good idea, there are only so= many<br> people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there&#39;s a lot t= o be done,<br> and everyone has something that they&#39;d like to see done, and _that_ is = what<br> they&#39;re generally working on.<br> <br> <font color=3D"#888888"><br> - Jonathan M Davis<br> </font></blockquote></div><br>It&#39;s not that someone needs to take the i= nitiative, it&#39;s just that there aren&#39;t that many D developers.=A0 I= hope things improve once GDC is officially part of GCC and D becomes avail= able on all GNU/Linux OSs.=A0 Another thing that might need to happen is fo= r the D project to join The Software Freedome Conservancy (SFC) or form its= own non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, similar to Python Software Foundati= on.<br> <br>But that&#39;s just and I could be wrong.<br><br><br> --20cf3078131e560598049ee26cc9--
Mar 19 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
 On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Jonathan M Davis 

 Really, the problem is that someone needs to take the initiative on this.
 They
 need to work on setting it up and supporting the ecosystem which would
 result in
 a group of such projects. Good ideas tend to be presented around here and
 then
 go nowhere, because no one actually takes the initiative to do them. The
 "wouldn't this be a good idea?" tactic doesn't tend to get very far, even
 if
 everyone agrees, simply because someone has to put in the time and effort
 to do
 it, and while people may think that it's a good idea, there are only so
 many
 people working on Phobos and other D-related stuff, and there's a lot to
 be done,
 and everyone has something that they'd like to see done, and _that_ is
 what they're generally working on.
 
 
 - Jonathan M Davis

It's not that someone needs to take the initiative, it's just that there aren't that many D developers. I hope things improve once GDC is officially part of GCC and D becomes available on all GNU/Linux OSs. Another thing that might need to happen is for the D project to join The Software Freedome Conservancy (SFC) or form its own non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, similar to Python Software Foundation. But that's just and I could be wrong.

It's both. Without any developers, there obviously won't be any code. However, until someone takes the initiative and sets up a proper place and framework for projects to be posted to with the idea that it's an incubator for possible additions to Phobos or for major 3rd party D projects, then there's no place for those developers to post their stuff. Right now, such stuff would either be posted on dsource and be lost in all of the cruft sitting there, or it would be posted on someplace like github where there's no real connection between any of the projects. A proper incubator site/project would be _the_ place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so that the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren't in the way (be it because they're removed or put in an area where such projects go and don't get in the way). So, we need someone to take the initiative to set up a proper incubator site/project for D projects, and then we need developers to actually write projects/libraries and post them there. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--20cf3078131e94298e049ee691cf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>wrote:
 It's both. Without any developers, there obviously won't be any code.
 However,
 until someone takes the initiative and sets up a proper place and framework
 for projects to be posted to with the idea that it's an incubator for
 possible
 additions to Phobos or for major 3rd party D projects, then there's no
 place
 for those developers to post their stuff. Right now, such stuff would
 either
 be posted on dsource and be lost in all of the cruft sitting there, or it
 would be posted on someplace like github where there's no real connection
 between any of the projects. A proper incubator site/project would be _the_
 place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so
 that
 the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren't in
 the
 way (be it because they're removed or put in an area where such projects go
 and don't get in the way).

 So, we need someone to take the initiative to set up a proper incubator
 site/project for D projects, and then we need developers to actually write
 projects/libraries and post them there.

 - Jonathan M Davis

I'm still not sure what people mean by "incubator". If you are talking about dsource2, then no, it's a bad idea. People should be able to use whatever site, whatever project management software, and whatever tool they want for their code. Besides, a lot of momentum is needed to get something like RubyForge to work, and D doesn't have that momentum, yet. As for D and Phobos, I think what you are trying to describe is a place where interested developers could quickly find out _what_ needs to be done and _how_ to get involved. That place should be www.digitalmars.com/d but it's not; everything from its 80s design style to lack of important information. Just compare http://docs.python.org/devguide/ to it. First impressions count, and I'm not just talking about looks here. So, yes, "build it and they will come." --20cf3078131e94298e049ee691cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Jonatha= n M Davis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmdavisProg gmx.com">jmda= visProg gmx.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=A0<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s= tyle=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204= ); padding-left: 1ex;"> <div><div class=3D"h5"> </div></div>It&#39;s both. Without any developers, there obviously won&#39;= t be any code. However,<br> until someone takes the initiative and sets up a proper place and framework= <br> for projects to be posted to with the idea that it&#39;s an incubator for p= ossible<br> additions to Phobos or for major 3rd party D projects, then there&#39;s no = place<br> for those developers to post their stuff. Right now, such stuff would eithe= r<br> be posted on dsource and be lost in all of the cruft sitting there, or it<b= r> would be posted on someplace like github where there&#39;s no real connecti= on<br> between any of the projects. A proper incubator site/project would be _the_= <br> place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so tha= t<br> the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren&#39;t = in the<br> way (be it because they&#39;re removed or put in an area where such project= s go<br> and don&#39;t get in the way).<br> <br> So, we need someone to take the initiative to set up a proper incubator<br> site/project for D projects, and then we need developers to actually write<= br> projects/libraries and post them there.<br> <font color=3D"#888888"><br> - Jonathan M Davis<br> </font></blockquote></div><br>I&#39;m still not sure what people mean by &q= uot;incubator&quot;.=A0 If you are talking about dsource2, then no, it&#39;= s a bad idea.=A0 People should be able to use whatever site, whatever proje= ct management software, and whatever tool they want for their code.=A0 Besi= des, a lot of momentum is needed to get something like RubyForge to work, a= nd D doesn&#39;t have that momentum, yet.=A0 <br> <br>As for D and Phobos, I think what you are trying to describe is a place= where interested developers could quickly find out _what_ needs to be done= and _how_ to get involved.=A0 That place should be <a href=3D"http://www.d= igitalmars.com/d">www.digitalmars.com/d</a> but it&#39;s not; everything fr= om its 80s design style to lack of important information.=A0 Just compare <= a href=3D"http://docs.python.org/devguide/">http://docs.python.org/devguide= /</a> to it.=A0 First impressions count, and I&#39;m not just talking about= looks here.=A0 <br> <br>So, yes, &quot;build it and they will come.&quot;<br> --20cf3078131e94298e049ee691cf--
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
 On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis 

 It's both. Without any developers, there obviously won't be any code.
 However,
 until someone takes the initiative and sets up a proper place and
 framework for projects to be posted to with the idea that it's an
 incubator for possible
 additions to Phobos or for major 3rd party D projects, then there's no
 place
 for those developers to post their stuff. Right now, such stuff would
 either
 be posted on dsource and be lost in all of the cruft sitting there, or it
 would be posted on someplace like github where there's no real connection
 between any of the projects. A proper incubator site/project would be
 _the_ place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly
 managed so that
 the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren't in
 the
 way (be it because they're removed or put in an area where such projects
 go and don't get in the way).
 
 So, we need someone to take the initiative to set up a proper incubator
 site/project for D projects, and then we need developers to actually
 write projects/libraries and post them there.
 
 - Jonathan M Davis

I'm still not sure what people mean by "incubator". If you are talking about dsource2, then no, it's a bad idea. People should be able to use whatever site, whatever project management software, and whatever tool they want for their code. Besides, a lot of momentum is needed to get something like RubyForge to work, and D doesn't have that momentum, yet.

In a way, it _would_ be dsource2. In a way it would be for Phobos what Boost is for the STL. What exactly it is would depend on how it was set up. But the idea is to have a place to post libraries or modules which the community at large might find useful and which might be desirable in the standard library. It would be a place where such stuff could be posted and potentially worked on by the community at large. Such libaries/modules would therefore have the opportunity to used by the community at large and evolve according to that use. Once a library/module within in the incubator project reached the point where it was relatively solid and mature, it might try and get into Phobos. If it didn't make sense to put it in Phobos (for whatever reason), then it could stay in the incubator as a useful 3rd party library. It's not necessarily the case that the source would be hosted on whatever site was for the incubator project. The main thing is to have a place for such D projects to be posted, publicly visible, and make it easy to search through. Projects which were unmaintained would be removed/archived, and the state of the current projects would be clear. So, you'd have a group of 3rd party libraries which were reasonably-well maintained and which could develop into something which would go into Phobos or which would just be a solid 3rd party library (there's plenty which would be generally useful but too narrow in scope to belong in Phobos). How that compares to RubyForge, I don't know, since I know nothing about RubyForge. It wouldn't be quite like dsource either, since dsource is just a bunch of poorly grouped projects whose state is totally unclear and often unmaintained. It would be something similar to what Boost is to C++'s STL, but I'm not sure that we want something _that_ strict, since stuff has to be thoroughly reviewed before it gets into Boost, and part of the point of the incubator project is to get stuff in there which could be developed prior to reaching the point that it would need to be thoroughly reviewed (such as when it would try and get into Phobos). Regardless, no one has taken the time to put together such an incubator project, and exactly what it would be and how it would work would be highly dependent on whoever put it together. It's been proposed before and generally found to be a good idea, but until someone actually does it, it won't exist.
 As for D and Phobos, I think what you are trying to describe is a place
 where interested developers could quickly find out _what_ needs to be done
 and _how_ to get involved.  That place should be www.digitalmars.com/d but
 it's not; everything from its 80s design style to lack of important
 information.  Just compare http://docs.python.org/devguide/ to it.  First
 impressions count, and I'm not just talking about looks here.

That would be a separate - albeit related - issue. But it _is_ something that could definitely be improved. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 03/20/2011 08:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 A proper incubator site/project would be _the_
 place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so that
 the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren't in the
 way (be it because they're removed or put in an area where such projects go
 and don't get in the way).

I'm doubting about the idea of dead projects, because many seem to equal it to "no recent edit". But most highly used libs of most PLs are "dead" for a long while, according to this criterion, aren't they? They do the job (well or not) and rarely need further edition. Denis -- _________________ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Mar 20 2011
parent Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 20.03.2011 11:22, schrieb spir:
 On 03/20/2011 08:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 A proper incubator site/project would be _the_
 place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so that
 the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects weren't in the
 way (be it because they're removed or put in an area where such projects go
 and don't get in the way).

I'm doubting about the idea of dead projects, because many seem to equal it to "no recent edit". But most highly used libs of most PLs are "dead" for a long while, according to this criterion, aren't they? They do the job (well or not) and rarely need further edition. Denis

Depends. Most libs at least have updates fixing bugs and security issues. But for D2 there's another thing: Neither the language nor the standard lib are stable, so a lib that hasn't been maintained for some time probably doesn't even compile anymore - and this won't change in the near future (especially for the standard lib). Cheers, - Daniel
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
 On 03/20/2011 08:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 A proper incubator site/project would be _the_
 place to go looking for D projects, and it would be properly managed so
 that the state of each project was clear and dead/inactive projects
 weren't in the way (be it because they're removed or put in an area
 where such projects go and don't get in the way).

I'm doubting about the idea of dead projects, because many seem to equal it to "no recent edit". But most highly used libs of most PLs are "dead" for a long while, according to this criterion, aren't they? They do the job (well or not) and rarely need further edition.

Exactly how all of that would be managed would have to be determined, but look at dsource. How much of what's there is actually useable at this point? Now, part of that is because the language has evolved, and part of that is because much of it is D1, and if you're looking for D2 stuff, it does you no good. But still, a lot of it is just cruft at this point. "No recent changes" may or may not be a good criterion for whether a project should be considered cruft or not, but projects which are not actually useable, shouldn't be sitting around, claiming that they are. And it _is_ often the case that projects which aren't actively maintained are not useable. So, projects would need to be cleaned out periodically. But projects which continued to be useful should be kept, and projects which aren't should be removed/archived. Regardless, the exact policies on how projects should be managed in an incubator project would have to be dealt with as part of the incubator project, and as long is there is no incubator project, it's a non-issue. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 20 2011
prev sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--20cf3078131ef9794b049ee7f737
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>wrote:

 Regardless, no one has taken the time to put together such an incubator
 project, and exactly what it would be and how it would work would be highly
 dependent on whoever put it together. It's been proposed before and
 generally
 found to be a good idea, but until someone actually does it, it won't
 exist.


 - Jonathan M Davis

Assuming we don't have anyone to develop such a site, we would have to rely on something like Redmine or Launchpad. I think Redmine could work because it supports multiple projects. At least we could try it as an experimental incubator and see where it goes. Here is KDE's site powered by Redmine: https://projects.kde.org/ And phpBB: http://code.phpbb.com/ --20cf3078131ef9794b049ee7f737 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Jonatha= n M Davis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmdavisProg gmx.com">jmda= visProg gmx.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 20= 4); padding-left: 1ex;"> <div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"> </div></div><br> <br> Regardless, no one has taken the time to put together such an incubator<br> project, and exactly what it would be and how it would work would be highly= <br> dependent on whoever put it together. It&#39;s been proposed before and gen= erally<br> found to be a good idea, but until someone actually does it, it won&#39;t e= xist.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br></div> <font color=3D"#888888"><br> - Jonathan M Davis<br> </font></blockquote></div><br>Assuming we don&#39;t have anyone to develop = such a site, we would have to rely on something like Redmine or Launchpad.= =A0 I think Redmine could work because it supports multiple projects.=A0 At= least we could try it as an experimental incubator and see where it goes.= =A0 Here is KDE&#39;s site powered by Redmine: <br> <br><a href=3D"https://projects.kde.org/">https://projects.kde.org/</a><br>= <br>And phpBB:<br><br><a href=3D"http://code.phpbb.com/">http://code.phpbb.= com/</a><br> --20cf3078131ef9794b049ee7f737--
Mar 20 2011