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digitalmars.D - Females in the community.

reply Karabuta <Karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
Are there any female programmers using D? :)
Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders suck 
at these things and its not helping. This is not about gender 
balance crap, it about building a community.

Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

Destroy :)
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply DennisQuaid <d quaid.com> writes:
If you're looking for girl try matchfinder.com or something like 
that. Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most 
people here are bearded guys.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Gerald Jansen <gjansenXXX XXXownmail.net> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:33:45 UTC, DennisQuaid wrote:
 Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most people 
 here are bearded guys.
Actually this extreme gender imbalance is something that struct me ever since I started watching the DConf videos and following these forums. Is it the same in other comparable communities? Or is there perhaps something about the D language or its community that contributes to the extreme gender imbalance? (Competitiveness and occasional aggressivity in these forums, for example?)
Mar 17 2016
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 18:06:32 UTC, Gerald Jansen wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:33:45 UTC, DennisQuaid wrote:
 Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most people 
 here are bearded guys.
Actually this extreme gender imbalance is something that struct me ever since I started watching the DConf videos and following these forums. Is it the same in other comparable communities? Or is there perhaps something about the D language or its community that contributes to the extreme gender imbalance? (Competitiveness and occasional aggressivity in these forums, for example?)
Look at pretty much any technical conference or open source community. The vast majority of those involved will be men. There are definitely women programmers out there, and some among them do get involved in communities like this, but in general, for whatever reason, the vast majority of programmers are men, and that's what you're naturally going to see in communities like this. But if women want to be involved, there's nothing stopping them, and it's not like we ask about gender here, so a number of the posters could be women without you even knowing it. And a woman _did_ speak at dconf 2013 - Maxime Chevalier-Boisvert - and she's occasionally posted in the newsgroup. So, they do exist here. http://dconf.org/2013/talks/chevalier_boisvert.html In general though, I don't think that there's any reason to care about what gender people are here. Your gender has nothing to do with your skill or knowledge level as a programmer and really shouldn't have any impact on the discussions here. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral". Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing for everyone.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community.
That's how good documentations are written.
 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".
I don't mean it that way. It's a figure of speech :)
 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.
Now you are dropping my main point I personally don't care whether male or female. I care about the community and that is where I would like to see more activity. The community(social) has currently received less attention IMO. It's not that D is not yet good for more adoption, the issue is with social marketing.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who
 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".

 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.
"Mortal" not "moral", it's a figure of speech called "Metaphor" :)
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:
 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".

 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.
Agreed. We don't ask posters what their gender is, and we really don't care. We're here to discuss programming and D, not social issues. What are we going to talk about next? How we don't have enough of some particular religious group here? It doesn't matter. Anyone who wants to discuss D and programming and is willing to be civil about it is welcome to post here. Stuff like gender really doesn't matter. And I probably should have just ignored this thread entirely, since I have far better things to be doing than discuss irrelevant stuff like whether any of the posters here are women are not. We _all_ have better things to be doing than that. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 17.03.2016 17:17, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a
 female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community. Coders suck at these things and its
 not helping. This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a
 community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
I can't be the only one who is irritated by this use of the word "female". Why do you avoid "woman"? "A female" sounds like you're talking about an animal. Also, I don't agree with equating female with social media / public relations / community work. If someone wants to take a role of community manager (or whateer), great. I don't care if they're a man or a woman. We should not ask female programmers to be poster girls for D.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:
 I can't be the only one who is irritated by this use of the word
 "female". Why do you avoid "woman"?
"Woman" excludes non-adults. Non-adult, like I was when I started with code. That's the problem with PC nitpicking, it never ends.
 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.
Not to a native english speaker.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 25.03.2016 15:56, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:
[...]
 "Woman" excludes non-adults. Non-adult, like I was when I started with
 code.
Being most inclusive is clearly not the goal here. Otherwise Karabuta wouldn't have specified the sex. Did he choose "a female" to include children when talking about "someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to communicate and build a community"? I doubt it.
 That's the problem with PC nitpicking, it never ends.
I agree that picking on every word someone says isn't good. And it's worse when bad intent is assumed behind every little odd choice of words. I don't mean to do that. Maybe this use of "female" is benign, but it rubs me wrong way. I don't think I've been too hard on Karabuta by telling him that.
 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.
Not to a native english speaker.
I call bullshit on that. I don't have any strong evidence, and I'm not even a native English speaker myself, but I simply don't buy it. Here's the first Google hit I got for "animal documentary male female": https://youtu.be/kY7SlH3rzhQ?t=430 Didn't take long to find a spot where they talk about "the males" and "the females", because they always do in animal documentaries. Note how the speaker switches from "male"/"female" for kangaroos to "man"/"woman" for humans. That's what I'm talking about.
Mar 25 2016
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/25/2016 03:40 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:
 On 25.03.2016 15:56, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:
 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.
Not to a native english speaker.
I call bullshit on that. I don't have any strong evidence, and I'm not even a native English speaker myself, but I simply don't buy it. Here's the first Google hit I got for "animal documentary male female": https://youtu.be/kY7SlH3rzhQ?t=430 Didn't take long to find a spot where they talk about "the males" and "the females", because they always do in animal documentaries. Note how the speaker switches from "male"/"female" for kangaroos to "man"/"woman" for humans. That's what I'm talking about.
Of course they switch like that: It's an animal documentary, it helps to have an extra verbal cue for clarification when they switch between talking about animals vs humans. "Man"/"Woman" implies "Human". "Male"/"Female" are more generic than that. That's why they switch. Not because "Male"/"Female" implies "Non-Human" (it doesn't), but because "Man"/"Woman" DOES imply "Human" - an obviously important distinction in an animal documentary. Regardless of that, the whole matter is dead simple, though many are too blinded by fear of offending to see the blatantly obvious: Any "man" here who TRULY DOES get offended (and not just thinks he should get offended, or that other guys might be offended) by being called "A *MALE*" can go ahead and argue about "a woman" being offensive. Anyone else needs to drop their paranoid, self-contradictory bullshit.
Mar 28 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ? No ? Me neither. Therefore, your genitalia don't matter here.
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.
It is not brutal, it is dull and cringe-worthy.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:07:28 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ? No ? Me neither. Therefore, your genitalia don't matter here.
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community. 
 Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not 
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.
It is not brutal, it is dull and cringe-worthy.
Really, you guys feel that way? Maybe it's because we are from different cultural and social backgrounds :) Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is what I intend to pass forward for discussion.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Ice Create Man <ice cream.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:07:28 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ?
If I was coding that way, does it change your opinion ;)
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
Wow, stereotype much? "soft and mortal". Yikes. P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say "female" in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can sound a bit disrespectful.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:42:43 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? 
 It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say 
 "female" in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can 
 sound a bit disrespectful.
As an American, it seems more natural to me to use 'female' and 'male' as adjectives, as we're bombarded with that usage from birth. It's not a conscious decision, but 'woman programmer' just makes me cringe (even if you view it as a compound noun). To me, *that* sounds insulting, though I would be be hard pressed to explain why. When it comes to non-compound nouns, 'man' and 'woman' are the 'correct' choice. 'Male' and 'female' as nouns are what you would expect to see in a research paper or text book. Then again, America's large enough that there may also be a regional aspect to it, though I don't believe that's the case.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 04:51:21 +0000, Mike Parker wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:42:43 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 
 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism?
 It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say "female"
 in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can sound a bit
 disrespectful.
As an American, it seems more natural to me to use 'female' and 'male' as adjectives
As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman", so you can use that too. Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my experience a hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights activists, and allied trades. Just don't do it.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:00:09 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman", 
 so you can use that too.
So now, we are up to language policing already. You guys are true wonders of progress. The epitome of the free world.
 Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my 
 experience a hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights 
 activists, and allied trades. Just don't do it.
"The word is used by people I don't like, no it should be banned". Such progress. Much enlightenment. Wow !
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:03:15 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:00:09 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman",
 so you can use that too.
So now, we are up to language policing already. You guys are true wonders of progress. The epitome of the free world.
Not policing. Giving recommendations. Describing usages.
 Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my experience a
 hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights activists, and allied trades.
 Just don't do it.
"The word is used by people I don't like,
Used in order to dehumanize a population, specifically.
 no it should be banned".
A recommendation to avoid a certain word is much different from banning people from using it.
 Such progress. Much enlightenment. Wow !
Helping others to be polite is in fact progressive and enlightened. Your response is neither.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:43:07 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 Helping others to be polite is in fact progressive and 
 enlightened. Your response is neither.
The problem with this idea is that you need an authority which decides what is the correct polite speech and what's not. There's no registry of universally polite speech. There can't be. I remind you - this post is made in a forum of a programming language over 10 years old and there're still major syntax change requests posted (DAE hove/hate semicolons?). You can't please everyone. People have different ideas about what's offensive/progressive. As long as you're agreeing with the authority you're fine, the problem starts when you're not. You are going to get old and stop keeping up with the progressive idea of the day. Did you know that motherland is now a regressive word? Here's a VS addon to remind you of that: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=shinnn.alex Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language and assume good intent? Do we really need to stand on moral high ground and look down on people less skilled in communicating politely? Is drama and infantilization of the community worth that feeling you get when 1-upping a regressive person? This time could be spent better by making awesome libraries for example. With that bluntly communicating person.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:33:55 +0000
schrieb QAston <qaston gmail.com>:

 https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=3Dshinnn.alex
"The novelist from my motherland excites a lot of sci-fi addicts by his crazy storytelling." =E2=80=A6 (from the screen-shot) turns into =E2=80=A6 "The novelist from my native land excites a lot of sci-fi people with a drug addiction by their disgusting storytelling." I feel safer now, having avoided these lingual traps. --=20 Marco
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 11:33:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
 Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language 
 and assume good intent?
Because some people have nothing of substance to contribute, but still want to feel superior.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 01:42 PM, John Colvin wrote:
 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? It
 sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say "female" in
 a technical setting or about an animal, so it can sound a bit
 disrespectful.
I don't know about over there, but in the US political correctness issues get everyone whipped into a hysterical frenzy, so words like "male"/"female" are an (obviously failed, by the sound of it) attempt to sidestep all that "hurt feelings" bullshit by using terms that (we would think) couldn't possibly be construed as slurs. If someone can't even freaking figure out WHY they find a word offensive, they have no damn business squaking about it allegedly being offensive. For fuck's sake, people.
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Darkfeign <darkfeign gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
I.. what? I'm sure there are female programming at least experimenting with D. I would agree that the social media side of D suffers from no focused individual assuming the role, but gender is irrelevant there. Andrei does a great job at outreach for those already in the tech industry, but I would agree that Go (through its adoption of the Gopher) does well to engage a more broad community, encouraging more people to give Go a try and incorporating a younger audience much like Python does with their imagery.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 09:17 AM, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
StackOverflow has just published their developer survey. There are close to 6% female coders who answered their survey: http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#developer-profile-gender That link somewhat answers the "woman" versus "female" use as well (they use "female"). "Female" does not sound that bad to my American-English-tainted Turkish ears but something related has been happening in Turkey: Somehow the society decided that "kadın", the equivalent of "woman" was impolite and started using "bayan", almost the equivalent of "lady". Imagine suddenly starting to hear things like "lady scientist" instead "woman scientist"... We humans are crazy. At least some of us use D. :p Ali
Mar 17 2016
parent ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 17.03.2016 19:57, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#developer-profile-gender


 That link somewhat answers the "woman" versus "female" use as well (they
 use "female").
They don't use "female" as a noun, though. Search for "women" on that page, and replace it with "females". Then you have the weird, zoological sounding usage.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Carter <john.carter taitradio.com> writes:
It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. (Yes, 
sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to very 
extreme lengths in their rejection.)

Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
programming.

Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more pleasant 
and functional places.

Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
would suggest we do the same.

So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach would 
go a long way.

https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply Lass Safin <lasssafin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:
 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

 I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
 where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. 
 (Yes, sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to 
 very extreme lengths in their rejection.)

 Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
 programming.

 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.

 Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
 would suggest we do the same.

 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
Currently, internships are open >internationally to women (cis 
and trans), >trans men, and genderqueer people. >Additionally, 
they are open to residents >and nationals of the United States 
of any >gender who are Black/African American, >Hispanic/Latin , 
American Indian, Alaska >Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific 
Islander. We are planning to expand the >program to more 
participants from >underrepresented backgrounds in the >future.
I, I mean, I just really CAN'T take you seriously, when you link shit like that. I mean, sure, groups with a better balance of women and men tend to fare better, but thing is, we don't really care about the gender of someone, whom we aren't with physically. We just don't. The only moment, where members of the D community meet each other, is at DConf, and we aren't holding DConf every single day of the year. And the thing which you've linked to, that (absolutely horrendous) outreachy thing, is something I'd rather actually not see, if I was a women: I wouldn't fucking want to join a community, who presents a text like that to my face. What the _fuck_ is shit like "cis" and "genderqueer" supposed to mean? When I see a text like that, all I think is that the community surrounding this language (or software or I don't know whhat) is instead of focusing on improving the language, focusing om fixing social pseudo-problems. This is a huuuuuge turn-off for me. Just, please, don't.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent John Carter <john.carter taitradio.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 21:42:55 UTC, Lass Safin wrote:

 And the thing which you've linked to, that (absolutely 
 horrendous) outreachy thing,
Relax. If you don't like that example, grab another. Pyladies whatever. Not the point. The point is make people know they're welcome and they contribute. Make them doubt their welcome, they go where ever there is evidence that they might be. Simple. Human.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:42:55 +0000, Lass Safin wrote:
 I, I mean, I just really CAN'T take you seriously, when you link shit
 like that.
 
 I mean, sure, groups with a better balance of women and men tend to fare
 better, but thing is, we don't really care about the gender of someone,
 whom we aren't with physically. We just don't.
https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/ "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend to be accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's gender is identifiable, they are rejected more often." In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let people in the community know if you're not a guy. Hope that wasn't an important part of your identity, like if your parents went as far as dressing you in different clothing because your gender from the day you were born or something like that.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend 
 to be accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's 
 gender is identifiable, they are rejected more often."
It is not peer reviewed and for good reasons.
 In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let 
 people in the community know if you're not a guy.
In other words, you can be fed horseshit, as long as it goes into your confirmation bias, you are happy to eat it.
 Hope that wasn't an important part of your identity, like if 
 your
 parents went as far as dressing you in different clothing 
 because
 your gender from the day you were born or something like that.
Ok let me tell you something about my identity, where I was born and all of this. I was born and grew in France. You may not know, but all the idiocies you are spouting are just rebranding of French post-modernism and structuralism/post-structuralism. Derida, Foucault, Deleuze, Bourdieu, etc ... The whole damn thing became very popular after Mai 68, and, because of Gramcism, became the norm, notably in schools, in less than 2 decades. Meaning I was fed this nonsense pretty much everyday for like 20 years. There is hardly anything new in what you are presenting me. I get that you are all existed because this is new in the US, but while you guys are discovering glacier are sexists, we, in France, already knew that E=mc^2 is a sexed equation because it "privilegize the speed of light over other speed that are also vitally necessary to us" (Iriguay, 1987). It is all ex post facto rationalization to fit the narrative. See your "study" ? Women get more PR merged => women are better coders. Women get less PR merged => women are oppressed. It is all mental gymnastic and zero content.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:25:26 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend to be
 accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's gender is
 identifiable, they are rejected more often."
It is not peer reviewed and for good reasons.
It's from a source with many peer-reviewed articles, and you're not providing any evidence at all, peer reviewed or otherwise, to counter it.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:38:00 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 It's from a source with many peer-reviewed articles, and you're 
 not providing any evidence at all, peer reviewed or otherwise, 
 to counter it.
Good thing the burden of proof is not on me then. I mean why would I have to present anything at this point ? Everything that has been presented so far has been a complete trainwreck, as expected. I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth debunking so far.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up 
 bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and 
 invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth 
 debunking so far.
https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/
Mar 22 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 03:18:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up 
 bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research 
 and invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is 
 worth debunking so far.
https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/
Ok there was a "temporary cash flow issue", and "GNOME Foundation’s board temporarily froze expenditures while it collected the funds and revamped its financial procedures to adjust for the additional cash flow going forward". That really doesn't change anything to the point I'm making.
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/22/2016 12:25 PM, deadalnix wrote:
 we, in France, already knew that
 E=mc^2 is a sexed equation because it "privilegize the speed of light
 over other speed that are also vitally necessary to us" (Iriguay, 1987).
I had to learn more about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luce_Irigaray Ali
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent reply tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend 
 to be accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's 
 gender is identifiable, they are rejected more often."

 In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let 
 people in the community know if you're not a guy. Hope that 
 wasn't an important part of your identity, like if your parents 
 went as far as dressing you in different clothing because your 
 gender from the day you were born or something like that.
That study really didn't show what the headlines claimed at all: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ "1. Among insiders, women get more requests accepted than men. 2. Among insiders, people are biased TOWARDS women, that is, revealing genders gives women an advantage over men above and beyond the case where genders are hidden. 3. Among outsiders, women still get more requests accepted than men. 4. Among outsiders, revealing genders appears to show a bias against women. It’s not clear if this is statistically significant. 5. When all genders are revealed among outsiders, men appear to have their requests accepted at a rate of 64%, and women of 63%. The study does not provide enough information to determine whether this is statistically significant. Eyeballing it it looks like it might be, just barely. 6. The study describes its main finding as being that women have fewer requests approved when their gender is known. It hides on page 16 that men ALSO have fewer requests approved when their gender is known. It describes the effect for women as larger, but does not report the size of the male effects, nor whether the difference is statistically significant. Eyeballing it, it looks about 2/3 the size of the female effect, and maybe?" The significance and cause of these effects was not proven either; the study had many, many confounding factors - including the fact that they didn't even have an unbiased way of determining the gender of their subjects, to begin with.
Mar 22 2016
parent dewitt <dkdewitt gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 00:11:17 UTC, tsbockman wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/
This whole discussion made me wanna watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlR6CdJtRWM
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply WhatMeWorry <kheaser gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:
 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

 I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
 where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. 
 (Yes, sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to 
 very extreme lengths in their rejection.)
I don't get this at all? I've been coming to this site for years and I don't recall any "vitriolic rejections" of either men or women. I can't think of a more egalitarian community than what I've experienced here. I find this to be one of the most cordial and helpful sites I have ever had the pleasure of visiting.
 Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
 programming.
Who here has ever argued otherwise?
 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.
Again, I doubt if anybody here disagrees with this statement.
 Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
 would suggest we do the same.
How is D not welcoming "them". We welcome anybody who is interested in D.
 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
Google, Intel, HP, Bloomberg, etc are sponsoring this outreach. D does not have any such luxury. Listen, I would love that more women were interested in programming languages. I've seen many good women programmers (my wife was one) but it is usually for a paid job. I doubt you'll find many women who program out of the sheer pleasure of it, or who will spend their free time holed up in front of a workstation figuring out the inner working of mixins or traits. But don't feel too bad. Females vastly outnumber men in the veterinary and biology fields. I don't see their web sites going out of their way to "welcome" me.
Mar 17 2016
parent Darkfeign <darkfeign gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:02:47 UTC, WhatMeWorry wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:
 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
Google, Intel, HP, Bloomberg, etc are sponsoring this outreach. D does not have any such luxury. Listen, I would love that more women were interested in programming languages. I've seen many good women programmers (my wife was one) but it is usually for a paid job. I doubt you'll find many women who program out of the sheer pleasure of it, or who will spend their free time holed up in front of a workstation figuring out the inner working of mixins or traits. But don't feel too bad. Females vastly outnumber men in the veterinary and biology fields. I don't see their web sites going out of their way to "welcome" me.
This is very true. I know that, particularly in academia, there is an enormous amount of additional funding to entice women to enter the STEM subjects, particularly engineering/computer science. I don't believe many, if any, other fields have similar outreach programs. D's community is very open and welcoming, certainly focusing on merit above all.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:
 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
First the women outreach program was a financial disaster for gnome, see: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2143160/gnome-foundation-faces-cash-crunch-over-women-outreach-program.html Second, I love these that think women are too dumb to know they can contribute unless we explicit tell them so are the one giving lessons to others about sexism. You guys are projecting so hard you should open a theater.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:
 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.
Please link me to a single community (programming, os, library development) that hates women. Ignoring women/men and other superficial divides is equal treatment. I'm a dog with brain and paw enchantments - nobody even has to know. Welcoming everyone is the way to go. Focusing on specific groups is bias. Create a special program for women and now you have an unnecesary divide in your community. Don't imply to women that they couldn't deal with other programmers outside of your little safe-space - that's degrading and not true. Focus on the commonalities - like hating C++ templates :).
 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.
[Citation needed] What's the right mixture of people? Are biology departments and engineering departments less functional and pleasant than departments with more equal distribution? Do you really notice the gender behind nicknames and does it really affect your pleasure from participating in this newsgroup? Sorry to break your bubble but women are every bit as capable of being unpleasant as men are. Ah, and they sometimes fart too.
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply lobo <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a closet misogynist. If you want more women to join the D community first you need to understand why your dull and inane comments are extremely degrading. And it isn't your use of the word female - figure it out then grow up. bye, lobo
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply maarten van damme via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a closet
misogynist Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage women to join this community by bashing on younger people?
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent lobo <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:36:41 UTC, maarten van damme 
wrote:
 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a 
 closet
misogynist Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage women to join this community by bashing on younger people?
The comments don't deserve diplomacy and are highly offensive. The OP needs to realise we're not all soft and mushy creatures incapable of cutting code. Besides the OP himself said it was a brutal opinion and therefore it deserves a brutal answer. And this is the internet after all so it's the place to have pointless debates.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 17.03.2016 23:36, maarten van damme via Digitalmars-d wrote:
  > This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a closet
 misogynist

 Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage women to
 join this community by bashing on younger people?
No. That statement does not make any value judgments about younger people.
Mar 18 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:28:34 UTC, lobo wrote:
 And it isn't your use of the word female - figure it out then 
 grow up.
I care so little about this thread, but the focus on the word female is interesting. I don't recall anyone ever complaining about referring to women as females until this thread. Maybe it's the international nature of the forum.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:28:34 UTC, lobo wrote:
 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a 
 closet misogynist. If you want more women to join the D 
 community first you need to understand why your dull and inane 
 comments are extremely degrading.
Ideas like "gender/genitals/race matter more than merit" are coming back because of identity politics. Sadly, that's perpetuated by so called intersectional feminists, who are well intentioned, but whose actions result in a "concern troll" threads like this. It's ultimately harmful to everyone, because it's divisive and results in unequal treatment (positive and negative discrimination).
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/17/2016 9:17 AM, Karabuta wrote:
  Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a female,
 at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to communicate and
 build a community. Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.
As far as the D community goes, I don't care about anyone's gender, politics, age, race, disabilities, charisma, social skills, country, history, personal hygiene, religion, etc. I only care about ability, commitment, and contributions to D, i.e. a meritocracy, as close as we can get to one. Many D community members are known only by their online handles, which they pick themselves. If they choose to have an anonymizing layer, it is their right to do so, and if anyone "unmasks" such contributors, I consider it an egregious affront to the community. I do ask that people use real names for github commitments, and this is for legal reasons in case there is some problem with the rights to the code, but if they choose not to, they choose not to, and we will respect that. We make no attempt to track online users of the D sites, either. (Though be aware that github does, we don't control github.) As discussed in an earlier thread, I refuse to have a "Code of Conduct" for the forums or the D conferences.
Mar 17 2016
parent Ola Fosheim Grostad <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 23:00:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 As discussed in an earlier thread, I refuse to have a "Code of 
 Conduct" for the forums or the D conferences.
As long as you moderate it just means that the "code of conduct" is your own personal views. I.e. People have to second guess what the code is, ref "mainstream american norms".
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <name.lastname gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
I can think of 3 on the top of my head, there won't be active in this forum though like the largest part of the community.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
I guess this thread now only serves as a lesson in "political" writing. Karabuta wanted to discuss that "the social media representation of D sucks". Unfortunately, he opened his post with a question for "female programmers using D". Even the title is "Females in the community". The discussion derailed into sexism and whatnot. I would advice Karabuta (or anyone else) to make another top-level post without any references to gender, if you want to discuss social media. The only women I noticed in the D community is Maxime [0]. She built a research Javascript compiler with D for her PhD and now joined Apple. Maybe we should ask her, if there are issues concerning women and the D community? [0] http://pointersgonewild.com/
Mar 18 2016
next sibling parent reply Karabuta <Karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 at 12:09:45 UTC, qznc wrote:
 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community. 
 Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not 
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
I guess this thread now only serves as a lesson in "political" writing. Karabuta wanted to discuss that "the social media representation of D sucks". Unfortunately, he opened his post with a question for "female programmers using D". Even the title is "Females in the community". The discussion derailed into sexism and whatnot. I would advice Karabuta (or anyone else) to make another top-level post without any references to gender, if you want to discuss social media.
Yeah, you are totally right. I though that it was clear that the statement contained "metaphors". Howerver, people had there own "words they wanted to spit out" :) I will try not to use metaphors in coders forum next time :) It bothers me that some "BAD" programming languages have marketing edge on the social media, whilst D has none. You know, that's where "everybody" is nowadays. On the side note, you saw through all the various comments and realized what I meant. That's amazing :)
Mar 19 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 19 March 2016 at 13:14:14 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 Yeah, you are totally right. I though that it was clear that 
 the statement contained "metaphors". Howerver, people had there 
 own "words they wanted to spit out" :) I will try not to use 
 metaphors in coders forum next time :)
No, you said say stupid stuff and got your ass kicked for it. Nothing to do with others. Grow a spine.
 It bothers me that some "BAD" programming languages have 
 marketing edge on the social media, whilst D has none. You 
 know, that's where "everybody" is nowadays.
If you wanted to talk about this, you should have talked about this. Don't blame other for your shortcomings.
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:09:45 +0000, qznc wrote:

 The only women I noticed in the D community is Maxime [0]. She built a
 research Javascript compiler with D for her PhD and now joined Apple.
 Maybe we should ask her, if there are issues concerning women and the D
 community?
There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by the community. It didn't help that this was around the time of major controversial changes with the language and before there was a process for contributing to Phobos. However, Andrei wasn't too far off from that story, and I recall a fair bit more vitriol toward Janice.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.
[citation needed] A quick glance show that you are full of crap: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Feature_request_array_stuff_70431.html http://forum.dlang.org/post/mailman.139.1196168459.2338.digitalmars-d puremagic.com http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/automatic_conversion_to_invariant_string_67951.html http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Invariant_Question_yes_another_one_61626.html http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Limited_member_function_templates_61337.html http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/cast_const_proposal_57947.html http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Casting_away_const_and_invariant_57937.html Even looking for it I can't find it.
 It didn't help that this was around the time of major 
 controversial changes with the language and before there was a 
 process for contributing to Phobos. However, Andrei wasn't too 
 far off from that story, and I recall a fair bit more vitriol 
 toward Janice.
Well that vitriol must have been mixed with a fair amount of sodium hydroxide.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit of
 code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by the
 community.
[citation needed]
It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than five years.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.
[citation needed]
It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than five years.
You are looking more and more convincing, please continue...
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.
[citation needed]
It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than five years.
Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, and the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010. Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions. I find this extremely hard to believe.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:
 Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

 I find this extremely hard to believe.
Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that someone has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he said it? I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he has said it! To the people who don't think there are gender differences: take a look at all-female groups and compare them to all-male groups. The dynamics are different. Men are in general competitive. Women are just as competitive as men, but not with people the consider to be in their in-group/peers. In such settings the average woman is more likely to play down her own abilities "Oh, no, I am no better than you, I also have trouble with X,Y,Z" to find balance and common ground. So claiming that having a male dominated group doesn't affect social dynamics is not-very-scientific. Gender differences in social settings are real. Are people treated differently based on their presentation and identity? Yes. Are people more likely to complain about quality when they look at something with greater scrutiny? Yes, because if they invest time into evaluating then finding a flaw is considered being productive (spending time on something and not finding flaws makes the effort wasted). Will people look at code with more scrutiny if the submitter stands out in some way, most likely. Do some men have trouble with having a young woman as their boss, initially, yes. Is that related to men having dominance related issues versus women, most likely. Is there a biological foundation for this? Most likely. Can you treat a woman exactly the same way you treat a man without being perceived as sexist? Probably not. If the average woman expects and wants to find common ground, but many men are inclined to assert their dominance (towards both men and women), then you have a fundamental clash of expectations. Is this all culture? Obviously not, the root for dominance/emotions are very biological in their foundation. Can we do something about it? Only by paying attention to our own flaws. Is it reasonable to expect a male dominated culture to switch into an interaction mode that the average woman would prefer? Probably not. And vice versa. Does the dynamics of male dominated groups change when you increase the number of women in the group? Yes. The only way a person can be non-discriminating is by realizing that we in our nature are stereotyping and discriminating. It is integral to human nature og social dynamics. I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet to meet a person that doesn't. So the OP was basically right, and you are all wrong and in denial!!! ;-)
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet
 to meet a person that doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, 
 because I have yet
 to meet a person that doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog
If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they go by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without going into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There is this famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the death of a core community member, but it turned out the person just committed virtual suicide, not a physical death... I've been playing several personas that were female presenting in settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was bias in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is also very educational to put yourself emotionally into identity and cultural expectations related to the opposite gender. Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a mix. But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is good if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals you also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, but might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I think there might be many very real gendered reasons for why more men are technical geeks than women. Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than having the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often are the ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out how they worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:12:34 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who 
 present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they 
 go by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, 
 honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think 
 discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without 
 going into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There 
 is this famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the 
 death of a core community member, but it turned out the person 
 just committed virtual suicide, not a physical death...

 I've been playing several personas that were female presenting 
 in settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, 
 before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was 
 bias in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is 
 also very educational to put yourself emotionally into identity 
 and cultural expectations related to the opposite gender.

 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. 
 We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a 
 mix.

 But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may 
 not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and 
 study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students 
 appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is 
 good if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals 
 you also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, 
 but might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I 
 think there might be many very real gendered reasons for why 
 more men are technical geeks than women.

 Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers 
 seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than 
 having the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often 
 are the ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out 
 how they worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.
[citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update your knowledge of evo-psych. I could tell you exact opposite: men are the more coopoerative sex. Show me examples of great all female cooperation please. I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely made almost exclusively by males. You know when males are competitive? When they compete for female attention. For example by starting a thread like this. Perfect example of virtue signaling. Your real first name doesn't tell me anything - in my language it's female, I don't even know what the language you're using. I don't give a damn. All of the above doesn't matter. Stop making up gender issues when there're none. Stop dividing the community into classes. We don't need identity politics. Artists with patronage and programmers are among most welcoming groups out there. You know why programming attracts various social outcasts? Because we've always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 [citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update 
 your knowledge of evo-psych.
You should learn not to open a reply with going ad hominem. The fact that you don't, suggests to me that I've struck a nerve and that you basically don't have much to add to this debate... I am also not basing my statements on pseudo-scientific evo-psych...
 I could tell you exact opposite:  men are the  more 
 coopoerative sex.
I haven't said anything about one sex being more cooperative than the other.
 You know when males are competitive? When they compete for 
 female attention.
Men position themselves also with other men they like, women are more likely to compete with people they don't like and more likely to downplay their own position with people they like to put themselves at the same level and create a connection. You very rarely see men claim that they are less capable in order to connect with people they like. The average woman communicate more at the personal level, are more likely to resolve issues they have, and are less likely to commit suicide as a result. Those are facts. Statistical gender differences are real, measurable and observable to anyone willing to look at it. Does it apply at the individual level? No. There are greater differences between individuals than between genders. However, an all-female community and an all-male community have typically different characteristics. Both online and offline.
 You know why programming attracts various social outcasts? 
 Because we've always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.
Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it doesn't last for a very long. I've actually spent years of my life studying social interaction on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. So you will most likely fail to engage me at a level where I can learn anything from your "citations". What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level programming is an extremely time consuming activity.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:04:19 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it 
 doesn't last for a very long.

 I've actually spent years of my life studying social 
 interaction on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. 
 So you will most likely fail to engage me at a level where I 
 can learn anything from your "citations".

 What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are 
 somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then 
 maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level 
 programming is an extremely time consuming activity.
Oh, what I was posting weren't citations either obviously. That was the point: we could argue both ways. Either way - it don't matter. And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No need for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after the ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will shift back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as programmers that it doesn't really matter which parts of your body hang down.
Mar 23 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:35:59 UTC, QAston wrote:
 And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history 
 of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a 
 clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No 
 need for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after 
 the ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will 
 shift back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as 
 programmers that it doesn't really matter which parts of your 
 body hang down.
Fair enough, but here is some background worth mentioning. In high school I went to a section that was geared towards computers and electronics. We started with 3 girls and lots of boys from all over the city. After a year we only had 1 girl left, and I don't recall any of the boys quitting. She was a cute, natural, bubbly girl, but in order to get an easier time she changed into a more silent/serious and mainstream girl which made her more accepted by the teenage boys. When we had classes with another class with more girls the boys dampened their comments... basically the presence of girls made them moderate themselves and act less obnoxious towards others (both boys and girls). Studies generally say that mixed groups do provide a more satisfactory environment. That'a probably true for online forums too. In the army I had the same kind of experience. Male dominating and somewhat rough. The women that persists in such environments tend to take on less feminine manners too in order to gain respect. Although we also had a very feminine, extremely pretty, sergeant who did gain some respect, but her first inspection got very awkward, the men lost words, stuttered, giggled and generally had trouble keeping a straight face. She totally enjoyed it! So gender does create very real differences, sometimes suppressing (forcing women to become more like men), sometimes empowering. In the academic sector the situation was better. Still male dominated, but more general awareness of gender issues. Still, as a teacher you can see that one strong female student in a male dominated group can do well and take the group leader position, but that more average students might benefit from having all-female groups. I have absolutely no doubt that women are just a good programmers as men, but in my experience women in informatics tends to gravitate towards topics where they get to work with other people in addition to the technology. At one department meeting where we discussed how to attract more women to the Comp. Sci. department, one of the very bright professors said that she wasn't sure if we actually would do those women a favour since pure computer science is such a dull and meaningless topic... ;-) Of course, the gender percentage is not the real issue, the real issue is to make the study attainable and enjoyable for all. If only a small percentage of all women find it meaningful, then that is quite understandable and hardly a disaster, but if they don't even consider Compi. Sci. because it is male dominated then that is not good either. Anyway, I think the mixed settings makes for better norm formation and interesting interaction, but we cannot declare that there should be more women interested in system level programming. In my experience that path starts in the early geeky teens by kids picking hardware to pieces... So we are basically stuck with the discourse of a male dominated community, which is not ideal, even for the male participants IMHO.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.
LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.) I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh. Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.
LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.) I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh. Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
Point taken :D
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.
LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.) I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh. Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
"Most likely" According to the bureau of labor statistics, 9.3% of people working in construction were women. That definitively fit in the most likely category to me. I'm not sure what you were laughing at ? Come on Adam, I know from previous interactions we had that you are way smarter than this.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 06:32:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 Come on Adam, I know from previous interactions we had
 that you are way smarter than this.
I could certainly like to see comments like this done away with too. Reasonable people ought to be able to disagree without calling each other idiots (or implying the same). But I don't feel like arguing this.
Mar 24 2016
parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 14:36:39 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 06:32:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 Come on Adam, I know from previous interactions we had
 that you are way smarter than this.
I could certainly like to see comments like this done away with too. Reasonable people ought to be able to disagree without calling each other idiots (or implying the same).
1. He didn't call you an idiot. (He actually did the opposite, although objecting to a particular thing you said to him.) 2. Your original post was pretty obviously intended to mock deadalnix. ("LOL." "We all got a good laugh.") What kind of response were you expecting?
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.
LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.) I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.
Yes, it was funny to me as my mother worked as an industrial designer in the 1960s and designed a top-of-the-line radio (within a group of men) called Tandberg Huldra 9. She spent a lot of time on the backlight, and came up with acrylic backlight as a novel solution (at that point in time). She wanted the front to be all black, but the head of the company didn't want that, so it was all aluminium coloured like the top image: http://nrhf.no/Tandberg/TR%20Radio/Tandberg%20Huldra/T'Huldra-9.html After she quit Tandberg released the version with only the bottom half in black... Which looks a bit silly. But guess what, some decades later audiophile equipment was black aluminium and acrylic backlights was standard... I am pretty sure that there are many "invisible" women involved with the products we use, but maybe men are spending more effort at getting their name published. Incidentally, she had to correct a newspaper earlier this year that wrongly attributed her design to a male designer (he was hired after she quit)... Later when she was teaching furniture design/interior architects, most students were female, so they tried to get some men in as well in order to get a more mixed group. Most educators know that having some diversity in a group is good for the social dynamics. The interaction in mixed groups are usually more interesting than all-male or all-female groups.
 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean that more people will participate which would be better for all.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Abdulhaq <alynch4047 gmail.com> writes:
I have to say I agree that, for better or for worse, this thread 
alone demonstrates an occasional aggressiveness that puts me off, 
never mind women who are, generally speaking, less likely to 
weather the tone of voice often used here.

Karabuta seems to be a non-native English speaker and got laid 
into for using the wrong word for women. He took the lashing in 
good spirits but it doesn't bode well for the thinner skinned who 
might otherwise have a valuable contribution to make.


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:39:01 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.
LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.) I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.
Yes, it was funny to me as my mother worked as an industrial designer in the 1960s and designed a top-of-the-line radio (within a group of men) called Tandberg Huldra 9. She spent a lot of time on the backlight, and came up with acrylic backlight as a novel solution (at that point in time). She wanted the front to be all black, but the head of the company didn't want that, so it was all aluminium coloured like the top image: http://nrhf.no/Tandberg/TR%20Radio/Tandberg%20Huldra/T'Huldra-9.html After she quit Tandberg released the version with only the bottom half in black... Which looks a bit silly. But guess what, some decades later audiophile equipment was black aluminium and acrylic backlights was standard... I am pretty sure that there are many "invisible" women involved with the products we use, but maybe men are spending more effort at getting their name published. Incidentally, she had to correct a newspaper earlier this year that wrongly attributed her design to a male designer (he was hired after she quit)... Later when she was teaching furniture design/interior architects, most students were female, so they tried to get some men in as well in order to get a more mixed group. Most educators know that having some diversity in a group is good for the social dynamics. The interaction in mixed groups are usually more interesting than all-male or all-female groups.
 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean that more people will participate which would be better for all.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:06:15 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
 I have to say I agree that, for better or for worse, this 
 thread alone demonstrates an occasional aggressiveness that 
 puts me off, never mind women who are, generally speaking, less 
 likely to weather the tone of voice often used here.

 Karabuta seems to be a non-native English speaker and got laid 
 into for using the wrong word for women. He took the lashing in 
 good spirits but it doesn't bode well for the thinner skinned 
 who might otherwise have a valuable contribution to make.
The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't it? :-) Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am not sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these occasional "storming" threads that end with an appeal to self-moderation. I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get a 40% approval rating for it.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't 
 it? :-)

 Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D 
 community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am 
 not sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these 
 occasional "storming" threads that end with an appeal to 
 self-moderation.

 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.
If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:
 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.
Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it sounds.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:52:58 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:
 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.
Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it sounds.
I'm pretty sure Qaston was being sarcastic.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 03:20:01 UTC, Joakim wrote:
 I'm pretty sure Qaston was being sarcastic.
Indeed I was. It was difficult to not mock contempt for lesser people in that post. On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for 
 changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some 
 women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group 
 of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean 
 that more people will participate which would be better for all.
[...]
 The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't 
 it? :-)

 Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D 
 community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am 
 not sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these 
 occasional "storming" threads that end with an appeal to 
 self-moderation.

 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.
I don't want to walk on eggshels. Incidents happen sometimes on this forum (as well as everywhere - we're just people) but they get resolved. The forum self-regulates because it's not yet a circle jerk, and people being critical of others is one of the reasons for that. Karabuta apparently can handle criticism - good for him - the more people like that the better. It's funny how society "helps" women. Some crazy entitled women declare "manspreading" an issue. Good daddy - state - intervenes and bans sitting the wrong way [1]. It's not like women are adults and can ask a person to move, they're delicate flowers who need protection from state in cases of SLIGHTEST first world inconveniences. Entitlement intensifies - now cat-calling is a problem women can't deal with [2]. Now doctor can't tell a fat woman that her lifestyle is unhealthy - that's fat shaming [3]. Colleges are not really an example of intellectually healthy environment [4]. There will never be enough placating, but men need to step up! Here's a crazy idea: women can do everything they want. They're adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators. So they're better capable of adapting to "male forums", that's what collaboration is about. I don't think they need strong male protective arm to handle internet. And they fart - apparently I need to keep reminding people about that. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11643052/Manspreading-arrests-the-long-arm-of-the-law-just-invaded-our-personal-space.html http://www.nationalreview.com/article/391430/why-cat-calling-really-problem-christine-sisto http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/fat-shaming/ http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2015/11/25/from-megaphones-to-muzzles-free-speech-safe-spaces-and-college-campuses
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.
I've never said that. And that is not true as a general statement.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:25:50 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.
I've never said that. And that is not true as a general statement.
You sort of did here.
 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. 
 We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a 
 mix.
You know. Communication. Forums. :P
Mar 25 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:55:35 UTC, QAston wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:25:50 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.
I've never said that. And that is not true as a general statement.
You sort of did here.
 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a 
 group. We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress 
 we need a mix.
You know. Communication. Forums. :P
I think I clearly stated that we all have "female" and "male" sides. :-) Anyway, nice talking to you. You seem willing to think outside the box, that is a good quality. :)
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
I don't think they need strong  male protective arm to handle 
internet.
I'm not really sure why I respond to this BUT YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT to a level where I'm at loss of words. Which is really really hard to do. ;^) Women do not loose out by not studying Comp. Sci. IT IS THE OPPOSITE. Comp. Sci. loose out by not having the best qualified students from both genders. Women do not loose out by not participating in the D community. IT IS OPPOSITE. The D community loose out by having a tone that are off-putting to some women and even more men (due to the fact that there are far more male system level programmers than women). Yes, D has lost users thanks to this attitude. And people have accounted for it. So, if you want to stay small. Great. This is the way to go. All socities are engineered at some level. That you guys think the Jews are relevant is appalling! You don't get the difference between EUGENICS and CULTURE? WTF? No wonder Donald Trump is having blaze! :-)
Mar 25 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:38:56 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 I'm not really sure why I respond to this BUT YOU ARE MISSING 
 THE POINT to a level where I'm at loss of words. Which is 
 really really hard to do. ;^)
[...]
 All socities are engineered at some level. That you guys think 
 the Jews are relevant is appalling! You don't get the 
 difference between EUGENICS and CULTURE? WTF?

 No wonder Donald Trump is having blaze! :-)
Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and fascists, and eugenics, and communists, and jews) at least in one specific aspect - references to him on a unrelated topic should end the discussion.
 Women do not loose out by not studying Comp. Sci. IT IS THE 
 OPPOSITE. Comp. Sci. loose out by not having the best qualified 
 students from both genders.

 Women do not loose out by not participating in the D community. 
 IT IS OPPOSITE. The D community loose out by having a tone that 
 are off-putting to some women and even more men (due to the 
 fact that there are far more male system level programmers than 
 women). Yes, D has lost users thanks to this attitude. And 
 people have accounted for it.

 So, if you want to stay small. Great. This is the way to go.
In my opinion D didn't gain as much traction because it's mismarketed. It's marketed as a systems programming language while it doesn't have advantages compared to the other system languages - it's more problematic in cases where people need the system level programming language, especially the fact that it's heap-happy. It should be marketed as a domain programming language because it has more advantages compared to other domain programming languages (c#, java, go, python). Making community more accessible is obviously desired. And I agree with what you've just written - accessible for both men and women. So it's not a gender issue. Policies applied need to be neutral to not create resentment.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law Ali
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make sense. :-) https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Mar 26 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make sense. :-) https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.
Mar 26 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make sense. :-) https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.
It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing power to the strong leader. Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully not missile launches. In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have comparison material here in Europe.
Mar 26 2016
next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
 Grøstad wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make sense. :-) https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.
It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing power to the strong leader. Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully not missile launches. In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have comparison material here in Europe.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/78/f2/2b78f2e25f06ed43f7dfe89c0ae9b1bf.jpg
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is 
 the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of 
 Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is 
 also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who 
 knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure 
 it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing 
 power to the strong leader.

 Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless 
 variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not 
 entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be 
 jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully 
 not missile launches.

 In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, 
 Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have 
 comparison material here in Europe.
I didn't want to end my participation in this discussion on a negative note, but this reply is so ironic it hurts. A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic (US election) and goes on about it; despite having been personally asked by a moderator to not do that [1]. There's a reason why Godwin's law exists - it points out that comparisons to unrelated, emotionally loaded topics are not arguments - just diversion. Fascism and Hitler are just the most popular ones to use. Nobody cares about actual meaning of nazism and fascism - it's just an emotional blindfold, frequently used by media to slander and for clickbait. Why don't we leave US election discussion to US citizens on forums devoted to politics. https://forum.dlang.org/post/nd35j5$14k2$1 digitalmars.com
Mar 26 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:
 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic
You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked for moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. What is appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social thread like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider politics to be particularly contentious, and have never seen it been made an issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, in my past _30_ years on the Internet. The overall problem with this mentality is that you aren't supposed to mention politics _in case_ someone gets offended, not because they actually do get offended. Which pretty much makes it very difficult to get a working democracy. What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This community would be much better if there were more social threads, actually. A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all forum, so if you guys want to allow socialization, but don't want off-topic threads you probably should consider creating a separate social forum. Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either (outside of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. The basic idea that people will form strong teams based on code alone is not entirely well-founded.
Apr 11 2016
parent reply Karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 11 April 2016 at 17:12:03 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:
 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic
You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked for moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. What is appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social thread like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider politics to be particularly contentious, and have never seen it been made an issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, in my past _30_ years on the Internet. The overall problem with this mentality is that you aren't supposed to mention politics _in case_ someone gets offended, not because they actually do get offended. Which pretty much makes it very difficult to get a working democracy. What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This community would be much better if there were more social threads, actually. A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all forum, so if you guys want to allow socialization, but don't want off-topic threads you probably should consider creating a separate social forum. Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either (outside of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. The basic idea that people will form strong teams based on code alone is not entirely well-founded.
+1
Apr 12 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 at 14:57:33 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
 On Monday, 11 April 2016 at 17:12:03 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:
 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic
You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked for moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. What is appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social thread like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider politics to be particularly contentious, and have never seen it been made an issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, in my past _30_ years on the Internet. The overall problem with this mentality is that you aren't supposed to mention politics _in case_ someone gets offended, not because they actually do get offended. Which pretty much makes it very difficult to get a working democracy. What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This community would be much better if there were more social threads, actually. A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all forum, so if you guys want to allow socialization, but don't want off-topic threads you probably should consider creating a separate social forum. Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either (outside of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. The basic idea that people will form strong teams based on code alone is not entirely well-founded.
+1
Say the 2 guys that contributed no code, what a surprise ! Who could have predicted this ?
Apr 12 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent David Dewitt <dkdewitt gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
 Grøstad wrote:
 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make sense. :-) https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.
It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing power to the strong leader. Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully not missile launches. In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have comparison material here in Europe.
Wow this thread is off the chain. Trump is the only GOP candidate that doesn't want to gut so called Entitlements, doesn't support trade deals that don't benefit the US worker, thinks US bases in Europe and Japan etc are a waste, and there are other positions that the avg Joe agrees with. I'm all for closing bases esp since we can have a Carrier Strike Group just about anywhere at anytime. I voted for him in the AZ primary cause I was a registered Repub from voting for Ron Paul previously. Not that I agree with him on a number of items but I feel that way about all the candidates. Also he would be the 1st president that happens to be in the WWE Hall of Fame and that must mean something!!!! This election sucks if you ask me. #DeezNuts2016
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/26/2016 11:31 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 ...Hitler...
For the third time, please stop with the politics here.
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:

 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and
fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)
We've made it! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law Ali
I thought it was clear that this Hitler was refering to the Godwin's law already - just look at the rest of the post :)
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/24/2016 04:52 PM, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:
 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that seems to
 be the problem) meeting your standards.
Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it sounds.
We're getting there: :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law Ali
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:
 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.
Well, online one can engineer societies, if one are willing to spend the investments, but men are not the problem. Women are just as dysfunctional as men are, and both men and women experience gender-related discrimination in different fields (custody cases come to mind). I'll even say that the in-your-face bluntness-agression is preferably to silent aggression/freezing out, because bluntness can be addressed and corrected more easily. Hopefully we don't have a big freezing out problem (but how can you tell?). We do have the occasional bluntness problem. But let me ask you this question instead: would you expect the average man to feel inclined to join an all-female online community? I wouldn't. Just turn the gender around and ask the same question again: would you expect the average woman to feel inclined to join an all-male online community? Clearly, you need to think about how you grow your online community if you want to create openings either way.
Mar 25 2016
parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:09:36 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 Well, online one can engineer societies, if one are willing to 
 spend the investments, but men are not the problem. Women are 
 just as dysfunctional as men are, and both men and women 
 experience gender-related discrimination in different fields 
 (custody cases come to mind).
Totally agreed.
 I'll even say that the in-your-face bluntness-agression is 
 preferably to silent aggression/freezing out, because bluntness 
 can be addressed and corrected more easily. Hopefully we don't 
 have a big freezing out problem (but how can you tell?). We do 
 have the occasional bluntness problem.
Shit happens, ability to deal with it is important so IMO it's not a problem.
 But let me ask you this question instead: would you expect the 
 average man to feel inclined to join an all-female online 
 community? I wouldn't. Just turn the gender around and ask the 
 same question again: would you expect the average woman to feel 
 inclined to join an all-male online community?

 Clearly, you need to think about how you grow your online 
 community if you want to create openings either way.
Well, I don't have to speculate about that because I've seen communities specifically declared as male/female in their name and every one of them included people of both genders. I personally wouldn't join a community which was solely defined as a space for the other sex - but that's because I wouldn't find things of interest to me. But that's not the case for programming forums. We are here because we use the programming language, gender is just incidental.
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.
[OT] While I am also disturbed by how much support Donald Trump has gotten, 40% is a great exaggeration. According to the national polls tracked by Real Clear Politics, Trump currently has about 43% of the *Republican* vote - which itself is only about 30% of the *national* vote, meaning that his real support is ~13%. (Most years, about 40% of the country refuses/chooses not to endorse either candidate in the general election for President.) Admittedly, that number will certainly go up if he gets the Republican nomination - but even among those who do vote, many on both sides of the aisle regard themselves as choosing "the lesser of two evils", as opposed to truly *approving* of their candidate.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:
[...]
Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:52:09 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:
[...]
Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.
Fair enough. I would say this thread has been political from the beginning, though, long before anyone mentioned Donald Trump...
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 25/03/2016 04:52, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:
 [...]
Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.
... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know what is acceptable for discussion and what isn't. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 26.03.2016 01:34, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 On 25/03/2016 04:52, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:
 [...]
Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.
... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know what is acceptable for discussion and what isn't.
If they don't know that, plenty of CoCs have been created for them to read. But there's not much point anyway. Programmers in particular should be aware that it is basically impossible to formally specify the intricacies of social rules. The only thing that would be different with a CoC is that Walter would additionally link to the CoC instead of just making a mature suggestion. Furthermore, people contributing to unwanted discussions would be able to point out that technically, the phrasing of the CoC does not rule out their specific behaviour as they understand the terms used, etc. Who here needs a CoC to understand that the current thread should ideally not have happened in this form?
Mar 25 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 8:46 PM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 The only thing that would be different with a CoC is that Walter would
 additionally link to the CoC instead of just making a mature suggestion.
Be like Billy - behave yourself! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQRuNwOMzW8&list=PLBFA47360BEAFBC75
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 5:34 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 ... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know what is
 acceptable for discussion and what isn't.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004QTOTH6/
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:16:05 UTC, tsbockman wrote:
 According to the national polls tracked by Real Clear Politics, 
 Trump currently has about 43% of the *Republican* vote - which 
 itself is only about 30% of the *national* vote, meaning that 
 his real support is ~13%. (Most years, about 40% of the country 
 refuses/chooses not to endorse either candidate in the general 
 election for President.)
Ok, Trump is at 38% now vs Clinton and at 37% vs Sanders so it seems like the exposure is having at least a noticeable negative effect... We'll see, the dynamics are interesting to watch. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html
Mar 25 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Please, no politics here. Take it to https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:27:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
 wrote:
 Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

 I find this extremely hard to believe.
Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that someone has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he said it? I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he has said it!
Mainly because of the other part you didn't quote. Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".
 [snip]
I'm guessing the rest isn't really a reply to my post.
Mar 23 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:25:46 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:
 Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".
Yes, but Chris has already stated that he is a Social Justice Warrior, so he might object to things others don't :-).
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/23/2016 12:42 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit
 of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by
 the community.
[citation needed]
It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than five years.
Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, and the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010. Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions. I find this extremely hard to believe.
I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC. She and I had a meaningful private correspondence for a good while, during which she also revealed her identity. I do remember a flamewar in this forum that she found harassing, which I did not take part to and which is not easy to find and follow because some posts have been removed at the posters' request. We'd do good to generally avoid colportage of rumor. And of course, making this forum friendlier and more welcoming is something we always should aspire to. Thanks! -- Andrei
Mar 23 2016
parent Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:40:07 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple
 facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC.
I was comparing reactions to you with reactions to Janice. I did not intend to imply that you harassed anyone. The portions of your conduct that I have seen have been professional.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:17:46 +0000, Karabuta wrote:
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks.
This suggests hiring someone for marketing.
 I think we need a female,
You can start by using the term "woman" rather than "female". Deemphasizing people's humanity isn't a good way to get them into your community.
 at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community.
It's unfair to demand that a woman come in and help out with a project based on stereotypes. If I chose an arbitrary woman to help out, she is likely not to have the requisite skills. You also want us to find a woman willing to do this without compensation -- you're not talking about hiring a part time community manager. Note that community management is much different from marketing. Community management is about curation and internal promotion. Adam Ruppe's _This Week in D_ is the sort of thing a community manager would do. Marketing is about bringing people to D -- representing it at events and on social media, that kind of thing.
 Coders suck at these things and its not helping.
See what you just did there? You created a false dichotomy between women and coders. There are tons of women who can code. The first programmer was a woman. The first person to write a compiler was a woman. You also insulted everyone here in the same breath.
 This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a community.
Not pushing away half the world by slighting them and demanding that they work for free at the same time would be a good start. You could suggest that the D foundation hire a part-time community manager (we're low traffic; 5-10 hours a week should do) and donate to help accomplish that.
 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.
If you know in advance that you have to ask forgiveness for something, you could simply not do it in the first place.
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 17/03/2016 16:17, Karabuta wrote:
 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a
 female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community. Coders suck at these things and its
 not helping. This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a
 community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)
OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread. One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random, anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread and other threads) -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 23/03/2016 10:51, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

 One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software
 (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that
 requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where
 anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this
 registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random,
 anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking
 about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread
 and other threads)
Ugh, I'm getting quite used to being able to correct spelling errors in my posts too, and I can't do it with the newsgroups. Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology... -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/23/2016 3:53 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 On 23/03/2016 10:51, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

 One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software
 (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that
 requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where
 anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this
 registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random,
 anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking
 about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread
 and other threads)
Ugh, I'm getting quite used to being able to correct spelling errors in my posts too, and I can't do it with the newsgroups.
No spelling checker seems to deter a lot of these random, anonymous, poor spellers :-)
 Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...
Don't conflate the NNTP protocol with the shortcomings of whatever newsreader you're using. Mine, for example, does spell checking. (Thunderbird FWIW)
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 22:26:15 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...
Don't conflate the NNTP protocol with the shortcomings of whatever newsreader you're using. Mine, for example, does spell checking. (Thunderbird FWIW)
Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there would have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for Learning D. They can't catch phrases that are worded ambiguously, or that come off in a way they weren't intended. They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't realize until after you posted. And so on. Every time I find I've made a mistake in something I post in these forums, I have to make a new post to correct it. And I'm not the only one. Just look how often people reply to themselves with a sed command. NNTP is a dinosaur. Modern forum software offers so many features that people take for granted now. I fully understand why people find it annoying that those features aren't available here. A few years back, there were a couple of threads suggesting a move to a real web forum and I know where you stand on the issue. But as the community grows, it's absolutely going to become a necessity to make the transition at some point. I would even argue that continuing to rely on NNTP as the backend may actually hinder forum participation because people just aren't used to it. The web interface presents a web forum, which it totally is not in modern terms. I spent a lot of time in my newsreader through the 90s, but that was then. Let's move into the 21st century already!
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't
And here's an example of what I'm talking about. On this forum, I would normally just let it go, but on a modern forum I can edit my post.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 24 March 2016 at 04:45, Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't

 And here's an example of what I'm talking about. On this forum, I would
 normally just let it go, but on a modern forum I can edit my post.
I once saw a Giraffe riding my bicycle. I suspect that detecting grammar anomalies is difficult (such as the ambiguous example above). But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't know. :-)
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)
dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)
Mar 24 2016
parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:52:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)
dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)
Wait...what? Could you elaborate on that?
Mar 24 2016
parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/24/2016 01:58 PM, cym13 wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:52:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)
dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)
Wait...what? Could you elaborate on that?
I think he means the suggestion feature: void main() { int female; male = 42; } Error: undefined identifier 'male', did you mean variable 'female'? Ali
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there would 
 have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for 
 Learning D. They can't catch phrases that are worded 
 ambiguously, or that come off in a way they weren't intended. 
 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't 
 realize until after you posted. And so on. Every time I find 
 I've made a mistake in something I post in these forums, I have 
 to make a new post to correct it. And I'm not the only one. 
 Just look how often people reply to themselves with a sed 
 command.
Do you also not use email, then?
Mar 23 2016
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:19:06 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there 
 would have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for 
 Learning D. They can't catch phrases that are worded 
 ambiguously, or that come off in a way they weren't intended. 
 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't 
 realize until after you posted. And so on. Every time I find 
 I've made a mistake in something I post in these forums, I 
 have to make a new post to correct it. And I'm not the only 
 one. Just look how often people reply to themselves with a sed 
 command.
Do you also not use email, then?
My emails aren't generally available for public consumption.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:
 NNTP is a dinosaur.
Vladimir's D forum software. It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is otherwise much much better than endless other "modern" forum software I've had the misfortune to use.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:54:10 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:
 NNTP is a dinosaur.
Vladimir's D forum software. It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is otherwise much much better than endless other "modern" forum software I've had the misfortune to use.
BTW, there is no problem with adding the ability to edit posts, except that the edits will of course only be visible to forum users, and not NNTP or mailing list.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:59:09 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:54:10 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:
 NNTP is a dinosaur.
Vladimir's D forum software. It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is otherwise much much better than endless other "modern" forum software I've had the misfortune to use.
I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some time ago and use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can debate the usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild these days, but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and deleting posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP server.
 BTW, there is no problem with adding the ability to edit posts, 
 except that the edits will of course only be visible to forum 
 users, and not NNTP or mailing list.
Yeah, I get that. But then we're maintaining two separate databases. The database for the web interface should be the primary, with all of the post meta-data stored together with the posts themselves in one place. Then, people who pull the posts in a newsreader after any edits have been made will at least see the edited posts (still nothing to do for the mailing list subscribers, I suppose). It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news server admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the bounds of propriety. I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a new D user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup craze. More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or delete their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking threads as important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today, whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more thing about the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the web site looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself, just an annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of the whole it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 1:41 AM, Mike Parker wrote:
 I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some time ago and
 use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can debate the
 usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild these
days,
 but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and deleting
 posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP server.
Ironically, I've used various "modern" forum software that didn't allow post editing, either. Post editing has its downside, as well. Replies to a post may no longer make sense if it was altered. One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.
 I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a new D
 user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup craze.
 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or delete
 their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking threads as
 important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today,
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more thing about
 the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the web site
 looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself, just an
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of the whole
 it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.
I've used a lot of other forum software on the web, and most of them have maddening gaps in their feature set, and have the look/feel of being written by dilettantes as their first project. For example, take a look at the comments for this article: http://mynorthwest.com/813/2938339/Should-President-Obama-have-come-right-home-after-the-attacks-in-Brussels Note the lack of tree threading, and the very low information density. BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky. Also, the C++ illuminati communicate via a mailing list (lists.isocpp.org), pretty much equivalent to NNTP. So does Linux. We aren't really out of step with serious developers. Are they old codgers, or are they on to something overlooked by others? Another thing I like about this approach is that posts are restricted to text rather than emoji and pictures and pretty styling - i.e. actual content. It's hard to find any actual content buried in all the noise: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=112797.0 Emojis, no threading, microscopic text font: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/677326-is-there-an-elegant-way-of-writing-straight-hlsl-code-without-preprocessor-macros/ Here's my (yet another) presentation of the NNTP forums: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Choosing_D_over_C_Go_Rust_Swift_278458.html I'm sure I could improve it, the styling kinda sux. We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi no.address> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
+1! /Paolo
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
I agree. There is no need to change anything. However, there is room for improvement, but it requires to change the UI, which is not possible with Newsreaders. For example, "likes" so you don't have to make one line replies. See for example the Rust forum (you need be logged in). This can be extended to more semantic flags like "insightful", "offtopic", and more. See for example Slashdot. (Since I mentioned the Rust forum and logging in. Log in via OAuth (aka Github etc) should be possible for the web interface.) What I have not seen in any forum software is the ability to connect different topics. A threaded forum is a tree. I would like a DAG. The closest thing I used is the Github issue tracker. If you mention another issue, it automatically adds a backlink to here in there. Disclaimer: I like the current forum. Keep it! My ideas are very experimental and they are probably not worth killing the NNTP backend.
Mar 24 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 2:54 AM, qznc wrote:
 What I have not seen in any forum software is the ability to connect different
 topics. A threaded forum is a tree. I would like a DAG. The closest thing I
used
 is the Github issue tracker. If you mention another issue, it automatically
adds
 a backlink to here in there.
You can do that manually by inserting URLs (each posting has its own URL), and people do that now and then. I admit it's klunky, but it works.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Note the lack of tree threading
That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and I wish it would die completely. Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be said over and over again.
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
yeah it is good enough for me
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Note the lack of tree threading
That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and I wish it would die completely. Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be said over and over again.
LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the newsgroup any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of conversations in a sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not against having alternatives in the forum so that users can choose which way works best for them. And folks using a newsgroup reader or an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the same choice. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 15:14, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Note the lack of tree threading
That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and I wish it would die completely. Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be said over and over again.
LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the newsgroup any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of conversations in a sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not against having alternatives in the forum so that users can choose which way works best for them. And folks using a newsgroup reader or an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the same choice. - Jonathan M Davis
For me, the jury is still out. Originally I was a big fan of tree threading (together with being able to manually manage read/unread status of posts, like you do in Thunderbird) . I agree that following large conversations without it can become very tricky. But I also agree it makes it harder to follow the chronological order, and somethings things are mentioned in one post that were already mentioned "elsewhere" in the tree, where "elsewhere" is a more complicated relation because there is no linearity. That said, I think modern forum software like Discourse strike a good balance with linear threads. One key feature being the ability to spawn off a new thread from an existing one. This actually fixes two issues at once. One is it actually makes general thread size smaller, making it easier to follow a whole thread linearly. Second it features built-in support to creating an new topic that spawns from a previous discussion. In NNTP you can rename the title, but it's a bit of hack, different clients handle it differently, etc. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 8:45 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 That said, I think modern forum software like Discourse strike a good balance
 with linear threads. One key feature being the ability to spawn off a new
thread
 from an existing one. This actually fixes two issues at once. One is it
actually
 makes general thread size smaller, making it easier to follow a whole thread
 linearly. Second it features built-in support to creating an new topic that
 spawns from a previous discussion. In NNTP you can rename the title, but it's a
 bit of hack, different clients handle it differently, etc.
DFeed handles that rather well. See this thread as a fine example: http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1gaq$1o1g$1 digitalmars.com You may argue that there are better ways to present this, but it's pretty clear that NNTP is not holding this back.
Mar 24 2016
parent Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 19:52, Walter Bright wrote:
 DFeed handles that rather well. See this thread as a fine example:

 http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1gaq$1o1g$1 digitalmars.com

 You may argue that there are better ways to present this, but it's
 pretty clear that NNTP is not holding this back.
I disagree. Quoting myself, it doesn't have the: " Ability to spawn a new topic from an existing one. This is not something that is supported currently. Merely renaming the title doesn't suffice: the sub-topic still remains part of the parent thread/topic. So there is noise around, you can't simply follow the sub-topic, whilst ignoring the rest of the thread, because they are not separate. " This means people can miss an interesting discussion - like this subtopic, or the "D vs Rust mindset" discussion - merely by dismissing the parent thread - "Females in the community." in this case, which was an incredibly silly discussion to start with). Even if DFeed were to handle it well, it's just one client. Others would likely not handled it the same way. One of the supposed advantages of NNTP (multiple clients) can also be a shortcoming, because there is no consistent UI. And consistency is important for behaviors or aspects that should be preserved for any user, and not left for individual preference (like spawning a new topic separately). For example, someone on Thunderbird might open this thread, "Females in the community.", see it's garbage talk, and press "T" which marks the whole thread as read, and skips to the next one. The scrolling here would likely make the user not notice any sub-threads. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 08:14:07AM -0700, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
 On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Note the lack of tree threading
That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and I wish it would die completely. Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be said over and over again.
LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the newsgroup any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of conversations in a sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not against having alternatives in the forum so that users can choose which way works best for them. And folks using a newsgroup reader or an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the same choice.
[...] Whoa. This is the first time I've heard someone vote *against* tree threading. The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree threading correctly, and tree threading is the only way (at least for me!) to keep track of gigantic discussion threads that span thousands of posts. As for repetitiveness, it works pretty well if people actually use software that does proper threading so that they can reply to individual sub-threads rather than clump all replies in a single post, which requires a DAG, but DAGs are impractical because past a certain point, the graph starts looking like somebody's hair on a bad day and it's just impossible to sort out which reply came from where. Trees are somewhat limited in what can be represented, but large trees are much more manageable than large DAGs. On the other hand, perhaps this explains why people here start looking a little lost when threads grow past 500 posts or so. Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can keep track of things past that point. T -- I think Debian's doing something wrong, `apt-get install pesticide', doesn't seem to remove the bugs on my system! -- Mike Dresser
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 15:26:09 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
 The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the 
 plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree 
 threading correctly
Oh, I also avoid web-based email clients... though one of the biggest PROBLEMS I have with gmail is that it attempts to thread things automatically! I just want everything presented to me, in chronological order. My brain has a storage capacity of more than 800 quadrillion bits and a total linear computation speed of 60 trillion operations per second. It is equipped with sophisticated hardware-accelerated pattern recognition algorithms capable of multi-dimensional spacial processing as well as state-of-the-art natural language handling. Most attempts at computer assistance do little beyond hindering the operation of my superior neural net. Just feed me the data!
 Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can 
 keep track of things past that point.
I at least skim *every* post made in the ng, usually close to real time as they come in. The content is then digested and indexed in my brain for future use (and the undigested data is still available through the computer and my local client can look it up by date, poster, content, or yes, the threading headers all with ease) I often see people complain about how they find 50 emails a day to be completely unmanageable. I've handled an average of about 350 per day, every day, for about six years now. It takes about 10% of my work day, which isn't insignificant, but being aware of what's going on - sometimes, one person's problem today is my answer tomorrow - brings benefits in excess of the cost.
Mar 24 2016
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:50:31PM +0000, Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 15:26:09 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the
plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree threading
correctly
Oh, I also avoid web-based email clients... though one of the biggest PROBLEMS I have with gmail is that it attempts to thread things automatically!
I agree that trying to thread things automatically where there is actually no relation is extremely annoying. I have yet to find "smart" software that doesn't do something really dumb.
 I just want everything presented to me, in chronological order. My
 brain has a storage capacity of more than 800 quadrillion bits and a
 total linear computation speed of 60 trillion operations per second.
 It is equipped with sophisticated hardware-accelerated pattern
 recognition algorithms capable of multi-dimensional spacial processing
 as well as state-of-the-art natural language handling.
 
 Most attempts at computer assistance do little beyond hindering the
 operation of my superior neural net. Just feed me the data!
That's good for you. Me, I don't have the time/energy to devote all of the processing power of my brain just to keep up with a single forum -- I am subscribed to many high-volume mailing lists, and I simply can't keep up with *all* of it on top of all the other (arguably more important!) things in my life. Tree threading lets me kill entire 500+ post threads in one shot (or any subtree thereof, depending on which part of the conversation is pertinent to me), which is a lifesaver in this age of information overload. One has to pick his battles, and I choose to only read stuff that *might* be pertinent to my interests, rather than wade through *everything*, especially when a lot of it doesn't even concern me (most of this thread, for example, of which I've only read 1% because, frankly, 90% of it was (probably) off-topic drivel).
Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can keep
track of things past that point.
I at least skim *every* post made in the ng, usually close to real time as they come in. The content is then digested and indexed in my brain for future use (and the undigested data is still available through the computer and my local client can look it up by date, poster, content, or yes, the threading headers all with ease) I often see people complain about how they find 50 emails a day to be completely unmanageable.
At one point, I was dealing with 4-digit numbers of emails a day. Tree-threading makes it possible to retain my sanity. :-P (Fortunately, I've reduced my high-volume subscriptions since -- by a lot.) I guess your mental capabilities exceed mine, but I'm pretty sure that at some point, maybe around the 1000+/day mark or somewhere thereabouts, even you would have to concede that some discussion threads really ought to be outright ignored because they eat up time and energy for negligible gain.
 I've handled an average of about 350 per day, every day, for about six
 years now. It takes about 10% of my work day, which isn't
 insignificant, but being aware of what's going on - sometimes, one
 person's problem today is my answer tomorrow - brings benefits in
 excess of the cost.
Unfortunately, I don't have 10% of my day to devote to wading through email. There are far more important things in my life than that! T -- I don't trust computers, I've spent too long programming to think that they can get anything right. -- James Miller
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 7:01 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and
I
 wish it would die completely.
Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:48:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.
Reddit IS unusable BECAUSE of its tree threading. It is virtually impossible to find new posts on Reddit. At least with NNTP your client will do things like bold the unread ones and offer a jump to functionality. Reddit lacks even that, making it pure trash and impossible to follow.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 1:08 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:48:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.
Reddit IS unusable BECAUSE of its tree threading. It is virtually impossible to find new posts on Reddit. At least with NNTP your client will do things like bold the unread ones and offer a jump to functionality. Reddit lacks even that, making it pure trash and impossible to follow.
I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you looked at it last time.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is 
 impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you 
 looked at it last time.
You have to pay money for that feature.
Mar 24 2016
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 08:30:39PM +0000, Jack Stouffer via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is
impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you
looked at it last time.
You have to pay money for that feature.
While it comes for free on threaded mail/nntp readers. T -- If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one? -- Abraham Lincoln
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is 
 impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you 
 looked at it last time.
Sorry to bump the thread, but I found some options that make this a little more pleasant. For chrome: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-new-comments-highl/ajdilinnnkbmpoegibgacadjlblmpjad?hl=en For firefox (this is buggy, but follow the explanation of how to get it working properly in the reviews): https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cozy-reddit/ If you don't mind paying, reddit gold: https://www.reddit.com/gold/about/
Apr 06 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually 
 posting it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.
That's actually an interesting idea. Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow you to edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, so a design such as the following would hopefully be less alien: 1. Upon posting from the web interface, save the post and make it immediately viewable to all web interface users (which is the majority). 2. Allow the user to edit or delete their post during a grace period (e.g. 5 minutes). 3. Once the grace period expires, send the final version off to NNTP/mailing lists. Could be configurable (on by default), too. Would require some internal restructuring, and adding additional validation for things currently taken care of by the NNTP server, but seems certainly doable.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:01:23PM +0000, Vladimir Panteleev via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting
it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.
That's actually an interesting idea. Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow you to edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, so a design such as the following would hopefully be less alien:
[...] I like this idea too, even though I only use the mailing list, not the forum web interface. (If anything, it should at least reduce the number of complaints about posts not being editable, that seems to crop up every few months.) I'm also on another (non-NNTP) forum where posts can only be edited up to 15 minutes after the initial post, and it has worked very well so far. I think anywhere from 5-15 minutes or thereabouts should be a reasonably good default. T -- Life is complex. It consists of real and imaginary parts. -- YHL
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 11:01 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting
 it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.
That's actually an interesting idea. Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow you to edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, so a design such as the following would hopefully be less alien: 1. Upon posting from the web interface, save the post and make it immediately viewable to all web interface users (which is the majority). 2. Allow the user to edit or delete their post during a grace period (e.g. 5 minutes). 3. Once the grace period expires, send the final version off to NNTP/mailing lists. Could be configurable (on by default), too. Would require some internal restructuring, and adding additional validation for things currently taken care of by the NNTP server, but seems certainly doable.
FWIW I like to post and just see it there. On the rare occasions I make a mistake that could make my post misunderstood I cancel the message within seconds and repost it with the fix. (BTW would be nice to have the ability to cancel a message from the Web interface.) If we allow post editing we should allow viewing the history. Generally it's not something I've been missing. -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 17:55:18 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 FWIW I like to post and just see it there. On the rare 
 occasions I make a mistake that could make my post 
 misunderstood I cancel the message within seconds and repost it 
 with the fix. (BTW would be nice to have the ability to cancel 
 a message from the Web interface.) If we allow post editing we 
 should allow viewing the history. Generally it's not something 
 I've been missing. -- Andrei
NNTP cancellation is something I've thought about. It has issues: 1. There is no authentication and restrictions on what you can cancel. The forum would need to implement its own (e.g. by inserting a digest into a header that can only be validated through a secret cookie). I'm also worried that by exposing this feature, I'll bring more attention to its existence, which will increase the likelihood of its abuse - and even detecting the abuse may not be easy. 2. It does not propagate. If an NNTP client will cancel a message, it will still be visible on the forum. DFeed needs to request the full message list from the server to know which messages are gone (it does this every few days or so). And, of course, mailing list users will get it anyway, and it will also be stored on the mailing list archives browsable from the web.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 8:10 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 2. It does not propagate. If an NNTP client will cancel a message, it will
still
 be visible on the forum. DFeed needs to request the full message list from the
 server to know which messages are gone (it does this every few days or so).
And,
 of course, mailing list users will get it anyway, and it will also be stored on
 the mailing list archives browsable from the web.
The "Archives" I generate periodically rsync themselves against the messages on the server, so deleted messages eventually disappear from that.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 11:10 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 NNTP cancellation is something I've thought about. It has issues:
Thought so. -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 1:41 AM, Mike Parker wrote:
 I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some
 time ago and
 use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can
 debate the
 usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild
 these days,
 but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and
 deleting
 posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP
 server.
Ironically, I've used various "modern" forum software that didn't allow post editing, either. Post editing has its downside, as well. Replies to a post may no longer make sense if it was altered. One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.
Post editing can also be restricted by a time limit in web forum software. In any case, in a community like this, you'd expect that nearly all edits would be minor edits, that would not change the meaning of the original post, but just clarify it (or fix errors). Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of a post, so there is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit inappropriately. In particular Discourse supports that (which is the forum software used by Rust, and also an alternative Go forum - https://forum.golangbridge.org/ )
 I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a
 new D
 user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup
 craze.
 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or
 delete
 their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking
 threads as
 important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect*
 today,
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more
 thing about
 the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the
 web site
 looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself,
 just an
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of
 the whole
 it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.
I've used a lot of other forum software on the web, and most of them have maddening gaps in their feature set, and have the look/feel of being written by dilettantes as their first project.
I don't care about how many crap web forum software is out there, I only care about the good ones. The point of using modern forum software is not to just *any* software out there that just happened to be written recently. In particular, have you tried Discourse?
 For example, take a look at the comments for this article:


 http://mynorthwest.com/813/2938339/Should-President-Obama-have-come-right-home-after-the-attacks-in-Brussels


 Note the lack of tree threading, and the very low information density.

 BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The
 aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having
 it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.
Discourse is free & open: http://www.discourse.org/ , so there are none of those issues.
 Also, the C++ illuminati communicate via a mailing list
 (lists.isocpp.org), pretty much equivalent to NNTP. So does Linux. We
 aren't really out of step with serious developers. Are they old codgers,
 or are they on to something overlooked by others? Another thing I like
 about this approach is that posts are restricted to text rather than
 emoji and pictures and pretty styling - i.e. actual content.
Are they old codgers? Y...yes? Let me rephrase that, are you really asking if the C++ community can be taken *face-value* as example of modern practices? No, they can't. That is not to say there aren't brilliant developers there, there sure are. That isn't to say either that there aren't individual C++ coders who understand modern practices quite well. But to take the ideology of the community and C++ as examples of modern technology and practices... hell, no. But more importantly, you have to take legacy considerations into account. There's massive history in the newsgroups, people are used to it, people are used to their NNTP clients, people have workflows around it, etc. It's a very different question to ask if one should use NNTP or a forum software for a *new* community, than to change an existing community to a different forum system. And C++ is all about legacy, compatibility, dinosaurs...
 It's hard to find any actual content buried in all the noise:

    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=112797.0
*sigh* You can't compare a forum community (and a forum software) for essentially an *entertainment* hobby, to a forum community (and a forum software) built for *technical*, *professional* discussion. In particular there are no post signatures in Discourse (or they are disabled in the Discourse forums I visit). There are emojis, though.💖
  no threading,
Of all these, I agree (tree) threading can be an issue (see my OP). However, ultimately if there are shortcomings in web forum software these *can* be addressed, eventually. But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not in a proper way. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of a post, so there
 is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit inappropriately.
Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being able to edit it. (Sometimes people email me asking me to delete their posts, which I will do. Of course, I can only delete them on the server. The NNTP posts that already went out are not fixable.)
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:59:24 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of 
 a post, so there
 is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit 
 inappropriately.
Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being able to edit it.
In my opinion, the right purpose of post editing is to improve clarity, or - more rarely - as a way of apologizing for something that should never have been said. (Anyone interacting with me on GitHub should be aware that I frequently edit my posts there, especially within the first hour or so.) In both cases, making the edit history public is appropriate because it protects those who responded to the original bad message from being made to look foolish/unreasonable, while still allowing people to correct their mistakes. "Deleting" posts should normally be accomplished simply by editing the message to replace the body with "[message retracted]" or something along those lines.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 03:59 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being
 able to edit it.
That's not right. You can't change history, otherwise the threading of discussion will be impossible to follow. Look at how Facebook does it. -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
parent Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 25/03/2016 04:09, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 03/24/2016 03:59 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being
 able to edit it.
Discourse also supports properly deleting posts. Although it usually requires admin approval, and is usually reserved for spam, disturbing content, duplicated posts, stuff like that. It's not meant for retracting comments the poster simply later regrets.
 That's not right. You can't change history, otherwise the threading of
 discussion will be impossible to follow. Look at how Facebook does it.
 -- Andrei
Agreed. Furthermore on an ethical note I don't think people should delete comments they later regret. If one does a stupid or rude post, they should pay the price for being stupid or rude. If they regret it, and want to apologize for it, or otherwise retract some comments, that's fine: apologize or retract your comments *in a follow-up post*. But don't delete the original post, not only it can be confusing for people following that, I think it's cowardly too. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The
 aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having
 it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.
Discourse is free & open: http://www.discourse.org/ , so there are none of those issues.
Not what I meant. 1. I meant the message content is distributed, and so is resistant to loss. I have a current copy on my disk, for example. 2. Even if the file format is embedded in free and open software, someone would have to write code to view it. NNTP can be viewed by any text editor. It's very resistant to becoming unreadable 20 years from now.
 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not in a
 proper way.
The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting posts, and: 1. this is of debatable merit 2. there are methods discussed here of having them short-term editable and NNTP has innate advantages that are not easily dismissed: 1. The distributed nature of it (as discussed) makes it like git. In fact, there are a lot of interesting parallels between github/git and DFeed/NNTP. 2. Different people have different preferences - NNTP clients are quite diverse. Forum software - one size fits all. 3. NNTP clients are available everywhere (although the ones on mobile devices stink).
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 20:15, Walter Bright wrote:
 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not
 in a
 proper way.
The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting posts, and:
No, another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate is that it doesn't require an account / authentication : anyone can post without registering, emails accounts can be spoofed, etc. You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, it's your opinion. But it is another aspect of NNTP that is *innate and can't be fixed*. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 17:03:22 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 But it is another aspect of NNTP that is *innate and can't be 
 fixed*.
It'd be pretty easy to add digital signatures (some users already do it) and check them if you were really concerned about it. And that'd be more secure than the typical password system.
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 20:15, Walter Bright wrote:
 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not
 in a
 proper way.
The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting posts, and:
No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't require an account / authentication, anyone can post without registering, emails accounts can be spoofed, etc. You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, that's subjective. It is a shortcoming for me. But regardless, it is at the very another *aspect* of NNTP that is *innate and can't be fixed*. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 10:05 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't require an
 account / authentication, anyone can post without registering, emails accounts
 can be spoofed, etc.
It's actually pretty easy to add a field with a crypto hash in it, and have the NNTP server reject postings without the hash, and then supply the hash only with validated account creation. There's a scheme out there that does something like this for PGP key signing.
 You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, that's subjective. It
is
 a shortcoming for me.
I agree that it is subjective. As far as the D forums go, I think it's a feature that people can post without setting up an account. In today's panopticon, it's nice to have a few islands here and there where people can express an honest opinion without being tracked, cataloged, data-mined, etc. Sure, we get a few drive-by rogue and spam postings, but it's small enough to be manageable. (I have HUNDREDS of accounts here and there. It's just tiresome to set up a new one every time I visit a new site.)
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 25/03/2016 19:44, Walter Bright wrote:
 No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't
 require an
 account / authentication, anyone can post without registering, emails
 accounts
 can be spoofed, etc.
It's actually pretty easy to add a field with a crypto hash in it, and have the NNTP server reject postings without the hash, and then supply the hash only with validated account creation. There's a scheme out there that does something like this for PGP key signing.
Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one could build this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP anymore, and I guess it would break many clients, no? -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 5:57 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one could build
 this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP anymore,
 and I guess it would break many clients, no?
No, it wouldn't. The PGP signature doesn't break clients. They just ignore it (i.e. consider it part of the message body). You'd have the option of what client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to not present unregistered postings to you (a perq of registering yourself, you can customize the settings). In reply to your other message about starting new threads: Again, it is not about NNTP, it is about how DFeed chooses to present the thread.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2016 01:18, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/25/2016 5:57 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one
 could build
 this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP anymore,
 and I guess it would break many clients, no?
No, it wouldn't. The PGP signature doesn't break clients. They just ignore it (i.e. consider it part of the message body).
For reading posts, it wouldn't break clients, no. But what about writing messages with PGP signatures? If the client doesn't supported creating them automatically, it's too much of a pain the ass to do that manually.
 You'd have the
 option of what client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to
 not present unregistered postings to you (a perq of registering
 yourself, you can customize the settings).
Oh, no, no, no. That's a broken system. If one were to add such a layer of only allowing registered postings, this would have to be enforced for all users, not on a per-user preference. Otherwise you'd have a two-layer forum that would get super confusing. What if a registered poster replies to a non-registered poster message? I'd still see such messages. Or what about people that I want to see their posts, but they didn't bother to register and post unregistered? This is one of those things what would have to be a like a code formatting guidelines: it has to be the same for all developers in a project. It can't be like the choice of IDE/editor, which can be left to individual preference. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 30 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/30/2016 5:31 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 For reading posts, it wouldn't break clients, no. But what about writing
 messages with PGP signatures? If the client doesn't supported creating them
 automatically, it's too much of a pain the ass to do that manually.
That's right. But you can use DFeed to post, and you're no worse off then with other forum software.
 You'd have the
 option of what client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to
 not present unregistered postings to you (a perq of registering
 yourself, you can customize the settings).
Oh, no, no, no. That's a broken system. If one were to add such a layer of only allowing registered postings, this would have to be enforced for all users, not on a per-user preference. Otherwise you'd have a two-layer forum that would get super confusing. What if a registered poster replies to a non-registered poster message? I'd still see such messages. Or what about people that I want to see their posts, but they didn't bother to register and post unregistered? This is one of those things what would have to be a like a code formatting guidelines: it has to be the same for all developers in a project. It can't be like the choice of IDE/editor, which can be left to individual preference.
I suppose it depends on how much seeing posts from unregistered users bothers you.
Mar 30 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either language. So it has a very, very small impact.... On the surface at least. It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But: Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse. Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo. Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md) Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different organizations. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with 
 the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are 
 several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or 
 narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense 
 Walter, it's not meant as such. But:
Sorry, but this is complete FUD.
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.
Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to stabilize. If you want to help, start with https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.
 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. 
 Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the 
 Mozilla team itself. 
 (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)
No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D, for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.
 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software 
 (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars 
 vs. LLVM backend story.
No.
 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and 
 it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's 
 the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the 
 capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is 
 developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different 
 organizations.
I take offense to that. In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example, they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage, interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation). Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 01:07 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the
 mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several
 aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please
 don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such.
 But:
Sorry, but this is complete FUD.
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to stabilize. If you want to help, start with https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.
 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare
 with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team
 itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)
No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D, for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.
 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's
 forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend
 story.
No.
 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a
 really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2
 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of
 something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and
 used by many different organizations.
I take offense to that. In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example, they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage, interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation). Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.
Many thanks Vladimir for a very good post. Last part made me smile because it reminded me of the many arguments constructed around "nobody can compete with IBM/Microsoft/ICEs/taxis/etc because they have market share/money/larger teams/lobbying power/etc" -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 10:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.
A couple things I think would improve the usefulness: 1. Consider the thread view: http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1ff7$1mui$1 digitalmars.com and compare with: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Females_in_the_community._282176.html The latter contains the first line of the non-quoted text in the message. (I swiped this idea from slashdot). This is real nice because with a lot of messages in a thread, it can give a clue which one to click on. The (n/m) thing is n=quoted lines, m = total lines, so one can not bother with "quote the whole message and add +1 at the end" style posts. 2. Support markdown (not html). The great thing about markdown is it'll still look fine in other NNTP readers.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:45:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/24/2016 10:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.
A couple things I think would improve the usefulness: 1. Consider the thread view: http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1ff7$1mui$1 digitalmars.com and compare with: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Females_in_the_community._282176.html The latter contains the first line of the non-quoted text in the message. (I swiped this idea from slashdot). This is real nice because with a lot of messages in a thread, it can give a clue which one to click on. The (n/m) thing is n=quoted lines, m = total lines, so one can not bother with "quote the whole message and add +1 at the end" style posts. 2. Support markdown (not html). The great thing about markdown is it'll still look fine in other NNTP readers.
Added to my list. I actually didn't expect that you'd be in favor of Markdown, since you were against even allowing users to view HTML message parts. Previously I had turned down suggestions to integrate Markdown on interoperability concerns, but I guess now that the majority of posters use the forum interface it's less of an issue: https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/pull/39#issuecomment-61725661
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Added to my list.
Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:12:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Added to my list.
Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei
I love rad :)
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi no.address> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:12:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Added to my list.
Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei
Yeeeeeh! ;-P /P
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 9:08 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 I actually didn't expect that you'd be in favor of Markdown, since you were
 against even allowing users to view HTML message parts.
I changed my mind to be in favor of Markdown, but I still oppose viewing the HTML parts. For one thing, having pictures, javascript, remote content, etc., does not add value in a programming forum, it consumes bandwidth, and is a security risk. Markdown should provide all we need. Andrei has suggested D code highlighting, which is a good idea.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 17:07, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the
 mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several
 aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please
 don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such.
 But:
Sorry, but this is complete FUD.
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to stabilize. If you want to help, start with https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.
What does it meant for DUB to be "ready"? Does it need to be a "1.0" release? To have API, command line, and file formats all stabilized? I'm not sure that's necessary. As long as DUB is popular and usable (and it is already), it could already do well to be included in the distro. Being "official" doesn't have to mean ready and finished! Cargo is still version 0.7, despite Rust itself being 1.6 currently. So it's still "beta", but that didn't preclude it from being included. Mind one important thing though, what I'm looking for is not just merely DUB being included in the official D distribution. Having one less package to download is not what's important here. What's significant is DUB becoming "official", that is, the core D team should be familiar with it, use it when appropriate, and, if something were to happen to Sonke (even simply him not wanting to work on DUB anymore), there should be a commitment from the core D team to work on DUB themselves on such scenario. This is what I mean when I talks about understanding the importance of package managers.
 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare
 with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team
 itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)
No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D, for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.
First, I don't think promoting a single IDE is not a good idea. But hey, I'm the main developer of DDT, so maybe I'm biased!... ;) More importantly, this has nothing to do with promoting any set of IDEs. The D users are smart enough, they can find the list of IDEs that are available for their tastes. What I'm talking about is making IDE's *better*. I'm talking about doing work in tools like DCD ( https://github.com/Hackerpilot/DCD ) - which are IDE/editor agnostic anyway. Or even working in DMD or DUB functionality that is mainly of use to IDEs/editors. Now, I can't blame Walter and Andrei for not having the same resources as Mozilla, but that's not what I did. What I was saying is that the relative importance that Walter and Andrei give to IDE tools is not on the same level as what the core Rust team gives. And that I can blame on them. Let's look at an interesting example: the Nim language. It's a fairly small community, perhaps comparable to D, and also not backed by any large corporation, or any large team. It's just one or two main developers. Yet they found time to support IDE tooling in the core toolchain: http://nim-lang.org/docs/idetools.html No corporate support, AFAIK. Even better, let me offer a thought experiment here. Imagine that Walter were offered a developer for free, to work for 1 year on any D related work that Walter chooses (and the developer would work competently on whichever assignment he was placed). Would Walter assign that developer to be working in IDE tools? Hell no. He'd be working on Phobos, or some GC issues, or maybe fixing DMD bugs, etc. Now what about 2 developers? And 3 and so ? How many would there need to be until a developer would be assigned to work on DCD or a similar tool? More than the size of the Rust team for sure. TL;DR: Here's the bottomline: Does Walter even use any IDE tooling? Does he, for example, use DCD when developing in D? Does he use any IDE or IDE tooling when working with C/C++ ? If he doesn't use them, how would he ever rate this aspect *truly* important (not just important because other people like it)...
 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's
 forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend
 story.
No.
Perhaps you're right... the gap between the size of the DM backend team and the LLVM backend team is much, much more massive.
 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a
 really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2
 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of
 something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and
 used by many different organizations.
I take offense to that. In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example, they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage, interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation).
With regards to interoperability, the design goals of forum.dlang.org and Discourse are quite different, so they can't really be compared. I can agree with that. But in any case I was more focusing in polish and functionality in the area of user interface, since that is more amenable to being compared. And it's the most important aspect of the software. You say forum.dlang.org is focused on multiple forms of presentation, but I'd rather have one that works really well, than multiple ones that aren't that great. (see further ahead for the list of missing features). As for responsiveness, Discourse works pretty responsively to me. Same with resource usage. Unless you meant resource usage in the server. I'm afraid I'm at a disadvantage here, I'm not familiar with backend details, so I can't really comment on those.
 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.
LOL... I can give plenty: * password / username recovery functionality. * Being able to register with some pre-existing account (like Github), so it's one less login to remember. * Profile functionality, so that people can put an blog/twitter/github URL in profile. (better than using signatures) * Viewing topics that have new content, whilst being able to ignore/unwatch individual topics. * Ability to spawn a new topic from an existing one. This is not something that is supported currently. Merely renaming the title doesn't do this - the sub-topic still remains part of the parent thread/topic. So there is noise around, you can't simply follow the sub-topic, whilst ignoring the rest of the thread, because they are not separate. * The ability to flag posts for moderation. * Editing posts, with the ability to view edit history. * Auto-Scroll or some way to view an entire topic without having to click on "next page". * Alternatively, at least be able to set the number of posts per page to a large number, say 100. * Having a link count for the links that people post. It's interesting. * A nicer visual representation and interface for quoted text. * Some basic markup support, like markdown. * And with that, a markup editor. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 19:40:08 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 whilst being able to ignore/unwatch individual topics.
Yes, like this thread...
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 9:46 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with
 Rust's Discourse.
For the curious, an example of Discourse: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/pre-rfc-cargo-target-features/3284 I don't see a whole lot here that can't be done with DFeed (and NNTP), there are some good ideas, though I don't like its lack of nested threads.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch> writes:
Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> wrote:
 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software.
It's the exact opposite for me. I like Rust the language better than D but the forum is much easier to follow than Discourse. Discourse is using far to much resources/bandwidth. It's a PITA on my (quite old) phone. For the D forum I've a nice NNTP client that works like a charm. Tobi
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 25/03/2016 14:06, Tobias Müller wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> wrote:
 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software.
It's the exact opposite for me. I like Rust the language better than D but the forum is much easier to follow than Discourse. Discourse is using far to much resources/bandwidth. It's a PITA on my (quite old) phone. For the D forum I've a nice NNTP client that works like a charm. Tobi
What NNTP client do you use on your phone? -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?
I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have the option to use the DFeed web interface. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356
Mar 25 2016
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch> writes:
Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?
I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have the option to use the DFeed web interface. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356
Yes, exactly that one. Probably the most used app on my phone.
Mar 26 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2016 14:03, Tobias Müller wrote:
 Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?
I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have the option to use the DFeed web interface. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356
Yes, exactly that one. Probably the most used app on my phone.
Ok, fair enough. Personally I think reading newsgroups is too much of a complex task to be done on a phone (for starters typing is much harder, so you're kinda restricted to reading only, or typing short posts only). But that's a valid use case, and I can see Discourse doesn't work that well there. Maybe it will get an app in not too distant future. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 30 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/30/2016 5:22 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Ok, fair enough. Personally I think reading newsgroups is too much of a complex
 task to be done on a phone (for starters typing is much harder, so you're kinda
 restricted to reading only, or typing short posts only).
Having recently been absorbed by The Continuum, I acquired an iPhone. I found the predictive text input to be disconcerting at first, but it speeds up the typing a lot. It's still annoying to type anything other than lower case alphas. I haven't tried it yet, but trying to enter code on an iPhone seems like it would be hell. Maybe pairing it with a bluetooth keyboard will fix that. But none of that would be improved with custom forum software.
 But that's a valid use case, and I can see Discourse doesn't work that well
 there. Maybe it will get an app in not too distant future.
That's the problem with custom forums instead of a standard protocol. (I really like DFeed+NNTP, I guess you can tell!)
Mar 30 2016
parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 at 19:22:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Having recently been absorbed by The Continuum, I acquired an 
 iPhone. I found the predictive text input to be disconcerting 
 at first, but it speeds up the typing a lot.

 It's still annoying to type anything other than lower case 
 alphas. I haven't tried it yet, but trying to enter code on an 
 iPhone seems like it would be hell. Maybe pairing it with a 
 bluetooth keyboard will fix that.
On Android, there is "Hacker's Keyboard": https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard I don't know what the closest equivalent would be for iOS, but I bet there's something since Apple finally caved and added custom keyboard support in version 8.
Mar 30 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either language. So it has a very, very small impact.... On the surface at least. It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But: Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse. Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo. Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md) Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different organizations. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <name.lastname gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.
I couldn't agree more (not about the forum which I think is not inferior to Discourse). The package manager is the single most critical advantage over older languages. The user interacts with it and not compilers. The Rust team understood the significance of it and now they have one of the friendliest package manager out there. People rarely complain about cargo which is a feat in an rather despised category.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent =?utf-8?B?U2HFoWEgSmFuacWha2E=?= <gour atmarama.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:

 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.
 Compare with Rust's Discourse.
Having ability to use nntp reader (Gnus) which I use for all my mailing lists (via Gmane) is big 'pro' to choose, among many other things, D over Rust. NNTP provides automatic archive, powerful search ability on disposal, no need to create sorting rules in order to keep my INBOX clean etc. No need to say, that it means that one can use one's preferred editor to compose *both* mail and news messages. Moreover, when I had to use Discourse forum, I almost never used web UI, but email interface... Similar to the, now old & aging, web forums, I simply do not get what is so great with things like Discourse forums in comparison with NNTP? Similar wondering I have over popularity of Gitter/Slack over IRC...it looks as these days it's fashion that one has to use special app for each protocol used... Sincerely, Gour -- One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.
It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 17:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.
It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei
If you're looking for an experience of someone who moved to writing a significant code base in Rust, that's not me. The most Rust code I've written so far is just this https://github.com/RustDT/Rainicorn - about 1-2 man-weeks of effort. and I don't even consider myself proficient in Rust yet. (it's damn complicated to master!) What I meant with my comment above is that I've moved my *time and effort investment* from D to Rust, but that doesn't mean the investment was writing D or Rust code directly. Rather it has more to do with projects like DDT (https://github.com/DDT-IDE/DDT), a project I've worked on and off since 2008, but fairly intensively in the last 4-5 few years. The DDT IDE has its own D parser and semantic engine (for code completion, find definition, etc.), that I built from scratch, and have been improving throughout these years. About a year ago or so, I was on the verge of massive improvements in this engine. On one hand it would begin to support template instantiation (not perfectly, but enough to support code completion well enough in the majority of cases). Most of the groundwork necessary to have this analysis work in a lazy and incremental way - such that it would perform well under the interactive nature of an editor - was done already. Another thing nearly completed was refactoring the engine out of Eclipse itself, so that it could be run externally, as a daemon process. In a way quite similar to DCD, Go oracle, RLS, etc. The groundwork for all this was done (also implementing caching, etc.). I think this would have been quite interesting because with the template improvements above, the DDT engine would have been fairly more advanced than DCD currently, and be available to other D IDEs/editors (especially since Eclipse is not that popular nowadays, and I'm the first admit, fairly so - Eclipse sucks in certain regards) I was already a bit worried 2-3 years ago when Go came into the scene. It would definitely take a bit of mind-share out of D, but like you said, Go is not really a competitor to D, so it wasn't that significant... But then queue Rust coming in to the scene, and essentially I rapidly lost my motivation to work in D-specific tools once I looked more into Rust. DDT will still be maintained, but only because I've refactored the IDE-generic code into a language-agnostic framework, and built https://github.com/RustDT/RustDT and https://github.com/GoClipse/goclipse with it. But I won't be working on the DDT semantic engine anymore, as far as things stand. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/25/2016 01:42 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 On 24/03/2016 17:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.
It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei
If you're looking for an experience of someone who moved to writing a significant code base in Rust, that's not me. The most Rust code I've written so far is just this https://github.com/RustDT/Rainicorn - about 1-2 man-weeks of effort. and I don't even consider myself proficient in Rust yet. (it's damn complicated to master!) What I meant with my comment above is that I've moved my *time and effort investment* from D to Rust, but that doesn't mean the investment was writing D or Rust code directly. Rather it has more to do with projects like DDT (https://github.com/DDT-IDE/DDT), a project I've worked on and off since 2008, but fairly intensively in the last 4-5 few years. The DDT IDE has its own D parser and semantic engine (for code completion, find definition, etc.), that I built from scratch, and have been improving throughout these years. About a year ago or so, I was on the verge of massive improvements in this engine. On one hand it would begin to support template instantiation (not perfectly, but enough to support code completion well enough in the majority of cases). Most of the groundwork necessary to have this analysis work in a lazy and incremental way - such that it would perform well under the interactive nature of an editor - was done already. Another thing nearly completed was refactoring the engine out of Eclipse itself, so that it could be run externally, as a daemon process. In a way quite similar to DCD, Go oracle, RLS, etc. The groundwork for all this was done (also implementing caching, etc.). I think this would have been quite interesting because with the template improvements above, the DDT engine would have been fairly more advanced than DCD currently, and be available to other D IDEs/editors (especially since Eclipse is not that popular nowadays, and I'm the first admit, fairly so - Eclipse sucks in certain regards) I was already a bit worried 2-3 years ago when Go came into the scene. It would definitely take a bit of mind-share out of D, but like you said, Go is not really a competitor to D, so it wasn't that significant... But then queue Rust coming in to the scene, and essentially I rapidly lost my motivation to work in D-specific tools once I looked more into Rust. DDT will still be maintained, but only because I've refactored the IDE-generic code into a language-agnostic framework, and built https://github.com/RustDT/RustDT and https://github.com/GoClipse/goclipse with it. But I won't be working on the DDT semantic engine anymore, as far as things stand.
Thanks for the account and good luck with the Rust experience. -- Andrei
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.
Cargo is a good example of the problem with D. Not because of features (I don't know enough about either to compare) but because Cargo is documented like this: http://doc.crates.io/ and Dub is documented like this: http://code.dlang.org/getting_started Dub is going to be the official package manager, everybody says we should use Dub, but there's no way I could tell someone I'm working with to use it. I won't touch it for that reason. It's not clear to me how others don't see this is a problem.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/24/2016 02:29 PM, bachmeier wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
Cargo is a good example of the problem with D. Not because of features (I don't know enough about either to compare) but because Cargo is documented like this: http://doc.crates.io/ and Dub is documented like this: http://code.dlang.org/getting_started Dub is going to be the official package manager, everybody says we should use Dub, but there's no way I could tell someone I'm working with to use it. I won't touch it for that reason. It's not clear to me how others don't see this is a problem.
Could you please itemize the issues you found with dub? (FWIW I also sent a list to Sönke a while ago). -- Andrei
Mar 24 2016
parent bachmeier <no spam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:17:00 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Could you please itemize the issues you found with dub? (FWIW I 
 also sent a list to Sönke a while ago). -- Andrei
I've will write up a response when I get time.
Mar 28 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse.
The only thing wrong with NNTP is that it isn't trend/hipster-compliant. We have better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html
 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
Dub does need work. It's great for simpler projects and libs, but it's still next-to-useless for anything that JUST wants to participate in the package repository and uses a different build system (or even rdmd for that matter). There's some other issues as well. I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to fix that, but it's been an exhausting uphill battle, both technically and politically.
Mar 28 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/28/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 We have
 better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html
That article is right on. I discovered a long time ago that the secret to getting something done is to work on it every day, even if it's just for one minute. It's amazing how much gets done with just those minutes every day.
Mar 28 2016
parent Shachar Shemesh <shachar weka.io> writes:
On 29/03/16 07:36, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 3/28/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 We have
 better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html
It's 7:40am here, and I just got to work. I stopped reading half way through, because I decided I need to actually work :-)
 That article is right on.

 I discovered a long time ago that the secret to getting something done
 is to work on it every day, even if it's just for one minute. It's
 amazing how much gets done with just those minutes every day.
That's my philosophy for learning to play the piano (which I've started about a year ago, at the ripe age of 42). So far, it's been working out great for me. Shachar
Mar 30 2016
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:00:15PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.
Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse.
The only thing wrong with NNTP is that it isn't trend/hipster-compliant. We have better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html
[...] +1, LOL. T -- Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Mar 28 2016
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgTS4gQmVyZ2Vy?= <jeberger free.fr> writes:
On 03/24/2016 05:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.=20
 Compare with Rust's Discourse.
=20
Funny, that's the main reason why I still lurk around the D forums even though I haven't written a line of D in years, while I don't follow the Rust forums even though I do most of my experimenting in Rust these days.= =2E. Jerome --=20 mailto:jeberger free.fr http://jeberger.free.fr Jabber: jeberger jabber.fr
Mar 31 2016
prev sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:41:18 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 Yeah, I get that. But then we're maintaining two separate 
 databases. The database for the web interface should be the 
 primary, with all of the post meta-data stored together with 
 the posts themselves in one place. Then, people who pull the 
 posts in a newsreader after any edits have been made will at 
 least see the edited posts (still nothing to do for the mailing 
 list subscribers, I suppose).
NNTP users won't see the successive edits, though, and those who have their newsreader poll the server won't see them at all.
 It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news 
 server admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the 
 bounds of propriety.
I don't think we have an issue with moderation. The spam filter could be a bit better, I suppose. Then again, we get MUCH less spam than any off-the-shelf forum software, since the spambot authors target them specifically, thus their spambots will find their way in much easier.
 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to 
 edit or delete their posts.
Perhaps forum.dlang.org could make it clearer that once a post is sent, it is immutable.
 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking threads 
 as important or useful.
I really think this is entirely unnecessary. "Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things such as FAQs or things people should read before posting. Essentially, in pretty much all cases, this feature is used as a poor way to change the website in general in order to bring some things to users' attention. If the latter feature becomes required, since we have full control over the forum website's contents as a whole, we can look at how we can implement that feature properly (e.g. by adding a notice at the top of the thread list, or to the "create new thread" form, etc.) Still, I think this feature is only really necessary for websites where "the forum is the website". We could just as well post important information to dlang.org. If you have a specific need, we can discuss that.
 These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today, 
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one 
 more thing about the D community that doesn't jibe with 
 expectations, like the way the web site looked before the 
 revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself, just an 
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a 
 part of the whole it's one more point of complaint. One that 
 could be easily resolved.
I really don't think that "mailing list phobia" is something we need to pay much attention to. Any way you turn it, it comes down to personal preference, and once you have configured your email client to deal with mailing lists in a nice way, there is not much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source software projects do their development on mailing lists. The Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can you imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face that mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his gang to get on with the times? The truth is that familiarity with mailing lists is simply necessary for any serious software developer. Don't forget that forum.dlang.org has features that no other forum software can offer, features many people depend on. That includes its NNTP/email interoperability - one third of users communicating on this group don't do it via the forum. (If you think that one third is not too bad, don't forget that that includes most of the core team.) The ratio will probably be lower on "learn", but higher on the more technical groups. The forum offers multiple view modes. Many people don't use the default one, which mimics typical web forums. One view mode I've added at Andrei's request, I think he will be unhappy to see it go. The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's community for its performance, and people seem to often present in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its unusually low response times. I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the forum. Last year I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all feature requests. If you have specific requests for improvement, please create a GitHub issue: https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears, it will face just as much, if not more, vocal disagreement. You can always create a poll or something if you wish - out of curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have a hard time convincing the people who are actually working on D to switch.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 2:39 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 "Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things such as FAQs or
 things people should read before posting. Essentially, in pretty much all
cases,
 this feature is used as a poor way to change the website in general in order to
 bring some things to users' attention.

 If the latter feature becomes required, since we have full control over the
 forum website's contents as a whole, we can look at how we can implement that
 feature properly (e.g. by adding a notice at the top of the thread list, or to
 the "create new thread" form, etc.)

 Still, I think this feature is only really necessary for websites where "the
 forum is the website". We could just as well post important information to
 dlang.org.
Such things belong on the wiki, not in the forum. I agree we don't need sticky threads, in fact, they'd be a nuisance as they raise pointless bikeshed controversies over whether something should be in the wiki or the stiki.
 I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the forum. Last year
 I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all feature requests. If you have
 specific requests for improvement, please create a GitHub issue:

 https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues
Just to reiterate, you have done an awesome job with this and DFeed is a great resource and showcase for D.
 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious proposal to
 replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears, it will face just as much,
 if not more, vocal disagreement. You can always create a poll or something if
 you wish - out of curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have a hard time
 convincing the people who are actually working on D to switch.
There's little to no chance of convincing me. Many of the things people complain about with NNTP are features I prefer :-)
Mar 24 2016
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:36:42AM -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]
 Many of the things people complain about with NNTP are features I
 prefer :-)
Same here. T -- What is Matter, what is Mind? Never Mind, it doesn't Matter.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:39:34 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking 
 threads as important or useful.
I really think this is entirely unnecessary.
Again, the benefit of such features are debatable. I'm personally ambivalent to anything other than the ability to edit or delete posts.
 I really don't think that "mailing list phobia" is something we 
 need to pay much attention to. Any way you turn it, it comes 
 down to personal preference, and once you have configured your 
 email client to deal with mailing lists in a nice way, there is 
 not much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source 
 software projects do their development on mailing lists. The 
 Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can 
 you imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face 
 that mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his 
 gang to get on with the times? The truth is that familiarity 
 with mailing lists is simply necessary for any serious software 
 developer.
I'm not talking about developer mailing lists. I'm a member of numerous mailing lists myself. The core developers and contributors can use mailing lists, NNTP, or smoke signals for all I care. Those who want to join such lists will and that's perfectly fine. What I'm talking about is building up a community of users.
 The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's 
 community for its performance, and people seem to often present 
 in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time 
 someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its 
 unusually low response times.
Yes, it's a great piece of work and I am by no means suggesting we replace it. It would serve as a great foundation for future features. I just don't think NNTP should be our primary means of community management.
 you'll have a hard time convincing the people who are actually 
 working on D to switch.
I knew that before I posted :) I'm not expecting any changes now. I'm just pointing out what I see as a potential future sore spot. That the web interface exists at all kind of supports my case. When I first came to D, most communication was done with a newsreader. The old Digital Mars web interface to the newsgroups was painful to use. The mailing list interface, IIRC, was added later. Your work on this forum software made it all imminently more useful and convenient, thanks to the features you enumerated above. It opened the door to more users being able to more easily come in and participate in discussions. I'm simply arguing that as the community grows, taking things to the next level will open the door even wider. It's not something I feel passionately enough about to keep arguing for, though, so I'll drop it for now :)
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:39:34 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:41:18 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking 
 threads as important or useful.
I really think this is entirely unnecessary. "Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things such as FAQs or things people should read before posting.
I don't think he's talking about sticky placement, as much as some kind of tagging of threads. Of course, that raises issues of how you surface those tagged threads and whether people will bother applying the tags.
 not much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source 
 software projects do their development on mailing lists. The 
 Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can 
 you imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face 
 that mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his 
 gang to get on with the times?
Not only can I imagine it, I would say it to his face. Mailing lists were incredibly outdated back when I first encountered them decades ago, let alone today, which is why I have never used them.
 The truth is that familiarity with mailing lists is simply 
 necessary for any serious software developer.
Not really, in fact, you can easily tell which dev teams are ancient by the fact that they still use a mailing list as the main form of communication. Now, there are certainly benefits to SMTP/NNTP that centralized forums don't have, no question, and a lot of web forum software is ridiculously broken and even worse than a mailing list. But you could do a lot better than a mailing list, it's just rarely done. I though Apache Wave had some interesting ideas on collaboration, though I never tried it, so I can't say if they pulled it off.
 Don't forget that forum.dlang.org has features that no other 
 forum software can offer, features many people depend on. That 
 includes its NNTP/email interoperability - one third of users 
 communicating on this group don't do it via the forum. (If you 
 think that one third is not too bad, don't forget that that 
 includes most of the core team.) The ratio will probably be 
 lower on "learn", but higher on the more technical groups.

 The forum offers multiple view modes. Many people don't use the 
 default one, which mimics typical web forums. One view mode 
 I've added at Andrei's request, I think he will be unhappy to 
 see it go.
---snip-and-paste---
 I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the 
 forum. Last year I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all 
 feature requests. If you have specific requests for 
 improvement, please create a GitHub issue:

 https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues

 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual 
 serious proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse 
 appears, it will face just as much, if not more, vocal 
 disagreement. You can always create a poll or something if you 
 wish - out of curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have 
 a hard time convincing the people who are actually working on D 
 to switch.
As I understood what Mike originally wrote and he's now made certain below, nobody is critizing DFeed for its features or suggesting replacing it, only removing the lowest-common denominator accomodation of email and newgroup readers.
 The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's 
 community for its performance, and people seem to often present 
 in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time 
 someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its 
 unusually low response times.
Yes, I've seen that praise too, DFeed is a good showcase for D. The "Save and preview" button was a great addition; I use it often, particularly for long posts, and it largely obviates his desire to edit a post whenever. I'd like some sort of formatting language, like github has. Can't you provide that option in the forum and send the resulting HTML as text/html MIME attachments to SMTP and NNTP? I don't know if NNTP supports MIME. Of course, some may complain about HTML messages, but perhaps they can be handed some text formatting fallback? Anyway, not a huge issue, but nice to have. The current messaging status quo, where everyone gets an undifferentiated stream of messages and then are forced to manually scan the headings or run a keyword search on all the contents, is incredibly outdated. However, advancing beyond that will require some work, either to manually tag and vote on posts/threads or write software that will at least automate tagging, which is why it is rarely done. But we need to move beyond this decades-old tech someday, as it's wasting too much of our time.
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thursday, March 24, 2016 09:39:34 Vladimir Panteleev via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:
 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious
 proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears,
 it will face just as much, if not more, vocal disagreement.
Not only that, but given how much praise we've gotten for the forum based on its speed and all of the good publicity that we've gotten from that, switching to something else would just plain look bad from a PR standpoint. I'd never have guessed that we'd get good PR out of forum software like we've gotten, but it's obviously been a huge win for us in the PR department. There are occasional requests for fancier features, and for better or worse, we can't really implement most of them thanks to the fact that the forum is just one interface to a shared backend, but it's not like everyone in here is clamoring for fancy forum features that more popular forum software has. What we have works very well. So, while it is sometimes a bit annoying to have folks come in here suggesting new forum features, it really doesn't come up much, and it really doesn't seem to be a problem. Maybe we should figure out a way to make it clearer that the forum software is built on top of NNTP so that folks are less likely to ask for impossible features, but overall, what we have is a huge win for us, and I don't see much reason to be concerned about the occasional person who complains about how the forum software isn't "modern" enough. - Jonathan M Davis
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 24/03/2016 09:39, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news server
 admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the bounds of
 propriety.
I don't think we have an issue with moderation. The spam filter could be a bit better, I suppose. Then again, we get MUCH less spam than any off-the-shelf forum software, since the spambot authors target them specifically, thus their spambots will find their way in much easier.
My issue with having to register to post or not, wasn't really about spam. It was more about troll posts, flame-bait posts, and anonymity. -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
I wasn't planning on replying to this thread, but I think we 
should all stop for a moment and marvel at the amazing power of 
this mailing list to derail discussions. We've gone from women in 
the community, to the merits of NNTP vs. web forums, to current 
politics. If the powers of this list could be properly harnessed, 
flame wars would become a thing of the past, buried and smothered 
out under pages and pages of digression. Even what is arguably 
the most inflammatory discussion topic in tech right now is no 
match for the power of forum.dlang.org. Let's all pat ourselves 
on the back for having discovered the perfect weapon to combat 
internet flame wars.
Mar 24 2016