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digitalmars.D.learn - Why D isn't the next "big thing" already

reply llaine <darksioul6 gmail.com> writes:
Hi guys,

I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why people 
don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big thing" 
already.

Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing web 
I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js for 
example.

I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right tools 
for the right jobs but I would be interested to have other 
opinion on thoses questions.
Jul 26 2016
next sibling parent phant0m <asoeifjasoi sioudfhjsiuodhf.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


As far as I know, most of the people wait when D will be used by 
big companies for big projects. It's the chicken-egg problem. 
Personally, I found that D improves my productivity a lot 
(comparing to C++). I gave up on opinions of other people and use 
what is convenient for me in my own projects. But not everybody 
such "brave".
Jul 26 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.


D2 is under active development. Bugs get fixed, bottlenecks get 
optimized, and features get added or improved constantly.

These changes don't usually seem like a big deal from one release 
to the next, but they add up quickly. Compared to what we have 
now, D2 was (in my opinion) unfinished junk a few years ago. The 
quality has improved a lot since then, but it will take time for 
the bad taste left in many people's mouthes by the unstable, 
incomplete early builds to be forgotten.

This is a common problem for open source projects: the dev team 
is naturally more enthusiastic about the project than others, and 
also feels pressure to market it in order to attract testers, 
contributors, and donors. The result is that the product is 
declared "ready" before it really is by the standards of 
outsiders. People get fooled by the hype, try a half-baked build, 
and sour on the project.

As long as the dev team continues to solve D2's problems faster 
than they're adding new ones, I expect that adoption will 
continue to increase.
Jul 26 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Gorge Jingale <Frifj mail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


I think it is because D has some fundamental problems. It is a 
risk to use software that is not proven to be safe, effective, 
and easy to use. The fact there are so many bugs(and many are big 
blockes) in D says something about D, it matters not how fast 
they are fixed.

It forces you in to a certain mold. All that power it has is 
attractive, but much of it is hot air if you can't get it off the 
ground in any serious professional way.  The larger the project 
one works on the more likely one will run in to bugs, the more 
complex the language is the slower it understand the problems, 
and the more limited tools one has, the slower it is.

So, D has many things going against it compared with well 
establish languages.  Because businesses care about the $$$, it 
matters what they use. D covers a lot more ground than almost any 
other compiler out their but it doesn't cover any of it will 
except in a few cases(the things that make it attractive). So, 
you can see D as a sort of dried up waste land desert with a few 
nice palm trees growing here and there and a few scorpions. C++, 
say, is a very lush forest with many tree dwelling monkeys. Which 
environment would you rather use? Sure, there is potential in the 
desert, it has nice hot sand, so if you like that, you'll be in 
paradise... also if you like palm trees(and most people in the D 
forum like palm trees... or scorpions, they can be a tasty treat 
every now and then).

Ok, maybe a bit exaggerated, but point is most people don't like 
the desert and D is like a desert, but not as extreme. To 
actually prove why would require about 158 MIT students, a 10M$ 
grant, and a time machine. Do you have any of that?
Jul 26 2016
next sibling parent llaine <darksioul6 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 00:52:30 UTC, Gorge Jingale wrote:

 I think it is because D has some fundamental problems. It is a 
 risk to use software that is not proven to be safe, effective, 
 and easy to use. The fact there are so many bugs(and many are 
 big blockes) in D says something about D, it matters not how 
 fast they are fixed.



Which fundamental problems you refer to? I'm curious about 
thoses, I feel I just scratch the tip of the language so far.
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling parent ixid <adamsibson hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 00:52:30 UTC, Gorge Jingale wrote:

 So, you can see D as a sort of dried up waste land desert with 
 a few nice palm trees growing here and there and a few 
 scorpions. C++, say, is a very lush forest with many tree 
 dwelling monkeys. Which environment would you rather use?


You're forgetting the spiked stick pits that the lush forest is 
full of, and also the monkeys are rabid. =)
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply chmike <christophe meessen.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on those questions.


I've been testing D and love many features of the language. But 
I'm now to switching to Go for my alimentary project. But I 
prefer D's syntax, ranges and the easiness of generic coding.

The reason I'm switching to Go is because
1. there is a much larger community and code base (it's easier to 
find code snippet, help or programmers)
2. go routines (fibers integrated into the language, plug & play)
3. GC performance (no stop the world hiccups)
4. Web server && IO performance (see: 
https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks or 
https://github.com/nanoant/WebFrameworkBenchmark).

As a computer scientist I prefer D to Go and see a lot of 
potential in it. But as a software developer I feel that D still 
needs maturation to be competitive in a production environment. I 
guess this is the reason why D doesn't get much traction yet.
Jul 27 2016
next sibling parent reply NX <nightmarex1337 hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 09:28:49 UTC, chmike wrote:

 The reason I'm switching to Go is because
 3. GC performance (no stop the world hiccups)


IIRC, there is a concurrent GC implementation used by sociomantic 
but it's linux only. (It uses fork() sys call)


 4. Web server && IO performance (see: 
 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks or 
 https://github.com/nanoant/WebFrameworkBenchmark).


Please, these are terribly outdated benchmarks. There was a 
recent bug causing Vibe.D to not scale to multiple cores at all 
which has been fixed.
Jul 27 2016
parent chmike <christophe meessen.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:17:57 UTC, NX wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 09:28:49 UTC, chmike wrote:

 4. Web server && IO performance (see: 
 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks or 
 https://github.com/nanoant/WebFrameworkBenchmark).


 Please, these are terribly outdated benchmarks. There was a 
 recent bug causing Vibe.D to not scale to multiple cores at all 
 which has been fixed.


Yes, you are right. It's not easy to determine the version of 
vibe.d used for techempower.

 From this link it seam that version 0.7.19 of vibe.d was used Oo 
unless the Readme is simply outdated.   
https://github.com/TechEmpower/FrameworkBenchmarks/tree/master/frameworks/D/vibed

For the other one it's vibe v0.7.26 which is more recent. The 
performance is still low.
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling parent llaine <darksioul6 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 09:28:49 UTC, chmike wrote:


 The reason I'm switching to Go is because
 1. there is a much larger community and code base (it's easier 
 to find code snippet, help or programmers)


I agree with you, but when I'm having trouble I always go to IRC 
and the guys there are always nice and help me a lot. (Don't know 
the GO community for that).


 2. go routines (fibers integrated into the language, plug & 
 play)
 3. GC performance (no stop the world hiccups)
 4. Web server && IO performance (see: 
 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks or 
 https://github.com/nanoant/WebFrameworkBenchmark).


On this point I strongly disagree with you.
In my company I've deployed a D app using Vibe.d for internal 
purposes.

The app is around 4000 loc, used in average by 30 people 
simultanously and is deployed on heroku free (512 MB RAM │ 1 
web/1 worker) and the maximum response time is around 300ms.

Is way beyond every other app that we could have.

Look at this benchmark it's more up to date :
https://github.com/llaine/benchmarks



 As a computer scientist I prefer D to Go and see a lot of 
 potential in it. But as a software developer I feel that D 
 still needs maturation to be competitive in a production 
 environment. I guess this is the reason why D doesn't get much 
 traction yet.
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply NX <nightmarex1337 hotmail.com> writes:
Lack of production quality tools
Lack of good marketing
Lack of man power & corporate support
Lack of idiomatic D libraries

These are pretty much the core of all other negative 
consequences. Ex: GDC is few versions behind DMD because lack of 
man power.

If only we could break the vicious circle...
Jul 27 2016
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:39:52 UTC, NX wrote:

 Lack of production quality tools


like? no, "refactoring" and other crap is not "production quality 
tools", they are only useful to pretend that you are doing 
something useful, so you will look busy for your boss.
Jul 27 2016
next sibling parent reply burjui <bytefu gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:41:54 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:39:52 UTC, NX wrote:

 Lack of production quality tools


 like? no, "refactoring" and other crap is not "production 
 quality tools", they are only useful to pretend that you are 
 doing something useful, so you will look busy for your boss.


Why do you use D then? C++ already exists and you can do anything 
in it. Oh, D is more convenient and robust? Well, "Refactoring" 
is more convenient and robust than sed -i 's/.../.../g'.
Jul 28 2016
parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Thursday, 28 July 2016 at 11:41:49 UTC, burjui wrote:

 Why do you use D then?


it is fun.


 Oh, D is more convenient and robust?


no, it is more fun.


 "Refactoring" is more convenient and robust than sed -i 
 's/.../.../g'.


ues, using specialised tools to do useless work can be counted as 
"better thing".
Jul 28 2016
prev sibling parent reply Gorge Jingale <Frifj mail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:41:54 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:39:52 UTC, NX wrote:

 Lack of production quality tools


 like? no, "refactoring" and other crap is not "production 
 quality tools", they are only useful to pretend that you are 
 doing something useful, so you will look busy for your boss.


Do you ever get tired of your ego? You know, evolution supports 
that people like you are a dying breed. How does that feel? I bet 
it makes you feel good? I bet  you live an awesome life, I don't 
know where you find time to stroke your ego so much though?

Why don't you go live in a cave? That way you don't use any tools 
like a computer, or a car, or electricity... cause those all just 
get in the way of what's really important.

Eagerly awaiting your response.



P.S., I have a prediction, that you won't response intelligently.
Jul 28 2016
parent llaine <darksioul6 gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 28 July 2016 at 15:16:20 UTC, Gorge Jingale wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:41:54 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:39:52 UTC, NX wrote:

 Lack of production quality tools


 like? no, "refactoring" and other crap is not "production 
 quality tools", they are only useful to pretend that you are 
 doing something useful, so you will look busy for your boss.





Guys please, I'm just trying to do something constructive here.
Jul 29 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply lkfsdg <lkfsdg sdfeazq.od> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


Seriously, it could take years before D gets really popular and 
that's normal. Web languages have raised quickly because they 
were new, they weren't fighting against anything. D has C, Java 
and C++ plus the other "new" languages Go, Rust.

Also I predict that the more it'll get popular the less it will 
attract hobbyist. I did't realized at the beginning (I've 
discovered D in 2012 then started to learn more seriously in 
2014) but Alexandrescu clairly aims at a professional usage so 
it'll become less and less fun.
Jul 27 2016
next sibling parent reply llaine <darksioul6 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:42:50 UTC, lkfsdg wrote:


 Also I predict that the more it'll get popular the less it will 
 attract hobbyist. I did't realized at the beginning (I've 
 discovered D in 2012 then started to learn more seriously in 
 2014) but Alexandrescu clairly aims at a professional usage so 
 it'll become less and less fun.


What do you mean by that ?
Jul 27 2016
parent lkfsdg <lkfsdg sdfeazq.od> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 11:11:56 UTC, llaine wrote:

 On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:42:50 UTC, lkfsdg wrote:


 Also I predict that the more it'll get popular the less it 
 will attract hobbyist. I did't realized at the beginning (I've 
 discovered D in 2012 then started to learn more seriously in 
 2014) but Alexandrescu clairly aims at a professional usage so 
 it'll become less and less fun.


 What do you mean by that ?


It should be clear so let's rephrase: I think that hobbyists will 
be less and less attracted by D because its professionalization.

But you shouldn't attach any importance to this idea. I might be 
wrong, it's just that if, let's say, in five years I observe that 
this is true, I will be able to say "I knew it" without being 
biased (retrospective bias) because the idea is clearly stated. ;)
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling parent reply sneha <gulatisneha56 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 10:42:50 UTC, lkfsdg wrote:

 On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


 Seriously, it could take years before D gets really popular and 
 that's normal. Web languages have raised quickly because they 
 were new, they weren't fighting against anything. D has C, Java 
 and C++ plus the other "new" languages Go, Rust.

 Also I predict that the more it'll get popular the less it will 
 attract hobbyist. I did't realized at the beginning (I've 
 discovered D in 2012 then started to learn more seriously in 
 2014) but Alexandrescu clairly aims at a professional usage so 
 it'll become less and less fun.


I agree with you.
Jan 21 2019
parent reply Simen =?UTF-8?B?S2rDpnLDpXM=?= <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 21 January 2019 at 11:37:52 UTC, sneha wrote:
[snip]

 I agree with you.


Holy thread necromancy, batman!

--
   Simen
Jan 21 2019
parent bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Monday, 21 January 2019 at 11:41:36 UTC, Simen Kjærås wrote:

 On Monday, 21 January 2019 at 11:37:52 UTC, sneha wrote:
 [snip]

 I agree with you.


 Holy thread necromancy, batman!

 --
   Simen


He's probably using IE so he just got the latest forum updates 
there.
Jan 21 2019
prev sibling next sibling parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.


Because languages don't become big things. Good solutions to 
particular problems  become big things, but D is a very good 
language and nothing more. So if that is your criteria for 
choosing a language, you might want to use something else.

D will go the route of continual improvement and increased 
adoption. As more and more people use it for small projects, the 
ecosystem will improve, and it will begin to be adopted for 
bigger projects.
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


My personal opinion is that the two biggest problems are

1) it has no unique selling point (USP):

Rust - memory-safety, Go/NodeJS - web app, Python/Julia - 
scientific computing, R - statistics, Matlab/Mathematica/Octave - 
numerical programming, Haskell -
pure functional, C - kernels, controllers, embedded

While the Areas of D Usage 
(https://dlang.org/areas-of-d-usage.html) is just a brief 
overview, D can compete with all of these areas.

2) It has no big player with money behind it.
Rust (Mozilla), Go (Google), NodeJs (Joyent), ... - having 
dedicated resources helps a lot to let a project takeoff.

That being said it's an awesome language that can rule them all, 
adoption is rising slowly, but steadily & hopefully with the D 
Foundation being a non-profit organization real money 
(http://forum.dlang.org/post/qaskprdxmshpabarahbf forum.dlang.org) flows in.
Jul 27 2016
next sibling parent dewitt <dkdewitt gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 16:26:47 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


 My personal opinion is that the two biggest problems are

 1) it has no unique selling point (USP):

 Rust - memory-safety, Go/NodeJS - web app, Python/Julia - 
 scientific computing, R - statistics, Matlab/Mathematica/Octave 
 - numerical programming, Haskell -
 pure functional, C - kernels, controllers, embedded

 While the Areas of D Usage 
 (https://dlang.org/areas-of-d-usage.html) is just a brief 
 overview, D can compete with all of these areas.

 2) It has no big player with money behind it.
 Rust (Mozilla), Go (Google), NodeJs (Joyent), ... - having 
 dedicated resources helps a lot to let a project takeoff.

 That being said it's an awesome language that can rule them 
 all, adoption is rising slowly, but steadily & hopefully with 
 the D Foundation being a non-profit organization real money 
 (http://forum.dlang.org/post/qaskprdxmshpabarahbf forum.dlang.org) flows in.


I personally don't think having Corp sponsorship will all of 
sudden bring more ppl in.  I think it would be good to work on 
getting libraries to work with vibe might be a good way to bring 
interest/development.  I know vibe still needs work but the 
overall system isn't bad but its still a hassle to use w/ a DB in 
some instances.    I also don't believe in the "next big thing"  
it's hard to compete w/ something like JS and node picked up 
mainly because its javascript.  If u want D to pick up in the web 
arena just start some projects and post about them...  Make 
youtube videos or whatever.  ppl aren't gonna pick it up if all 
they do is come to the D forums and see a ton of flame fests.  
Need more positive examples of the language...  IDK if Rust is 
necessarily blowing up in usage I know Go has alot of steam but I 
would say that Docker may be the cause more than just saying its 
Google.  Also what about things like Hadoop or Kafka.  If D had 
things like this it would also pick up more traction.  There is a 
strong community and it tends to spend too much time on the 
forums complaining about A or B vs. doing things to improve 
exposure.

Maybe more organization for community projects would be good.  
I'd say one thing that could be improved is organization within 
the community. Im not talking about D leadership but just 
community.

I've seen a couple jobs around trying to use Elixir w/ Elm on the 
front end.  There are ppl out there willing to try new things...
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling parent Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 16:26:47 UTC, Seb wrote:

 My personal opinion is that the two biggest problems are

 1) it has no unique selling point (USP):


I don't necessarily agree. I think that D's USPs as seen 
externally are simplified and powerful metaprogramming abilities, 
and being a better or "cleaned-up" C++. Internally we all know 
that D has many USPs.
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <first.last gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 why it isn't the "big thing" already.


1. Less easy to explain

A big selling point is that D is good in all directions, and 
stupidly easy to apply in many situations.

That is a lot harder to explain that a simple value proposal like 
"let's pretend we solved multithreading!" or "let's pretend we 
solved bugs!".

Competitors concentrate their communications on one or two 
problems to be solved. D is more of an enabler thing, so many 
people who eg. don't know what meta-programming allows don't miss 
it in day-to-day operations.



2. Social Proof

I would wager that in large part the D community is vaccinated 
against taking decisions by social proof alone. But we need ever 
more stories like "that rich/trendy company is making loads of 
money with D".
Jul 27 2016
prev sibling parent reply Karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


I think we need more frameworks like vibe.d to build things with 
them. Currently there is not much so only a class of programmers 
will find the language useful.

Another thing is that the language is not marketed well enough. 
Someone need to handle marketing of the language, like real 
marketing. Most people are still unaware of D.
Jul 29 2016
parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 01:32:50 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 15:11:00 UTC, llaine wrote:

 Hi guys,

 I'm using D since a few month now and I was wondering why 
 people don't jump onto it that much and why it isn't the "big 
 thing" already.

 Everybody is into javascript nowadays, but IMO even for doing 
 web I found Vibe.d more interesting and efficient than node.js 
 for example.

 I agree that you have to be pragmatic and choose the right 
 tools for the right jobs but I would be interested to have 
 other opinion on thoses questions.


 I think we need more frameworks like vibe.d to build things 
 with them. Currently there is not much so only a class of 
 programmers will find the language useful.

 Another thing is that the language is not marketed well enough. 
 Someone need to handle marketing of the language, like real 
 marketing. Most people are still unaware of D.


The best marketing possible is pre-marketing in universities. For 
example in the 2000's Delphi was incredibly popular in Russia 
because the holder at this time (so Borland unless it was already 
Code Gear) sold literally **hundreds** of licenses to the russian 
education department. This is how it became so popular in Eastern 
Europe, despite of not being free.

The day D will be used to teach student programmation it could 
get popular. Unfortunately since the students that form the main 
frame of workers have short formation (typically 2 years) they 
are taught what's really used in the industry so Java, C++ + web 
languages, so that they're ready to program the same shit during 
10 years, until they leave and reconvert.
Jul 30 2016
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 11:31:26 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 For example in the 2000's Delphi was incredibly popular in 
 Russia because the holder at this time (so Borland unless it 
 was already Code Gear) sold literally **hundreds** of licenses 
 to the russian education department.


actually, no. nobody ever bothers to buy licenses at all. delphi 
was popular due to teachers mostly know nothing except pascal, so 
using turbo pascal, then borland pascal, then delphi was the 
logical choice. believe me, it had nothing to do with licensing, 
you hardly ever find legal, non-pirated delphi version there.
Jul 30 2016
parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 11:46:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 11:31:26 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 For example in the 2000's Delphi was incredibly popular in 
 Russia because the holder at this time (so Borland unless it 
 was already Code Gear) sold literally **hundreds** of licenses 
 to the russian education department.


 actually, no. nobody ever bothers to buy licenses at all. 
 delphi was popular due to teachers mostly know nothing except 
 pascal, so using turbo pascal, then borland pascal, then delphi


Your stupid. This is a well known fact.

https://www.quora.com/I-have-been-told-that-Russians-are-the-best-in-computer-programming-Why-is-that-Which-programming-language-do-they-use-Do-they-use-the-same-languages-that-we-use-or-do-they-use-something-totally-different/answer/Dmitry-Popov-6

http://delphihaters0.blogspot.com/2011/02/delphi-in-russia.html

PPL using pirated copies is another story. I speak well about 
what was setup in the universities themselves, you know... in the 
computer rooms.


 was the logical choice. believe me, it had nothing to do with 
 licensing, you hardly ever find legal, non-pirated delphi 
 version there.


You remind me that an idiot has open-sourced the keygen on 
GitHub. Don't know if it's still there.

By the way aren't you czech Ketmar ?
Jul 30 2016
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

it you think that you know the things better than somebody who 
actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep thinking 
that. also, don't forget to teach physics to physicians, medicine 
to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure that you will have a great 
success as a stupidiest comic they ever seen in their life.

also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.
Jul 30 2016
next sibling parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody who 
 actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep thinking 
 that. also, don't forget to teach physics to physicians, 
 medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure that you will 
 have a great success as a stupidiest comic they ever seen in 
 their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


Fucking schyzo ;)
Have you took your little pills today ?
Jul 30 2016
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody who 
 actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep thinking 
 that. also, don't forget to teach physics to physicians, 
 medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure that you will 
 have a great success as a stupidiest comic they ever seen in 
 their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some point, 
the leadership will need to put away ideology and get realistic 
about what belongs on this site.
Jul 30 2016
next sibling parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic they 
 ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


This has nothing to do with the language, this is a simple 
personnal attack. You should get that, as much as any reader that 
discovers D would do.
Jul 30 2016
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:58:31 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic 
 they ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


 This has nothing to do with the language, this is a simple 
 personnal attack. You should get that, as much as any reader 
 that discovers D would do.


I wasn't directing my comment at you specifically. I was talking 
about the direction the thread took, something I've seen with 
increasing frequency. It does not make a good impression, and 
because this is the primary place for new users to ask questions 
and for Google links, it is costly.
Jul 30 2016
parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 04:32:10 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 I wasn't directing my comment at you specifically. I was 
 talking about the direction the thread took,


what do you prefer: to have a completely false information, or 
corrected information for the price of one or two troll-like 
posts? i prefer second, 'cause information must not only be free, 
but it must be correct too. ;-)

as for the attacks and trolling itself... healthy community can 
go thru that without any "forum police" involved (like in this 
case). and actually having such things and community reaction to 
'em is not such a bad thing. i believe that it is quite the 
contrary: it paints the community as a nice open place, not some 
walled garden with machine gun guards patroling the area and 
shooting anything resembling real-world things. ;-)
Jul 30 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic they 
 ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


I would love to see the forum evolve into something similar to 
reddit, where everyone can judge the value of a comment/thread 
and off-topic threads (or threads with low-values) get down-voted 
very quickly. It might also help to avoid such 50 pages threads 
(like auto-decoding) as the most-important thread stays on top 
and newcomers to the discussion don't have to read everything to 
get the gist.
Jul 30 2016
next sibling parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 23:11:23 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic 
 they ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


 I would love to see the forum evolve into something similar to 
 reddit, where everyone can judge the value of a comment/thread 
 and off-topic threads (or threads with low-values) get 
 down-voted very quickly. It might also help to avoid such 50 
 pages threads (like auto-decoding) as the most-important thread 
 stays on top and newcomers to the discussion don't have to read 
 everything to get the gist.


Preliminary documentation work:

https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-reddit-ranking-algorithms-work-ef111e33d0d9#.vawc5kat8

And you wan submit the result on Pantallex DFeeds.

The widget on the homepage must use something similar (except for 
up/down) votes. So at least 10 replies + something with the age 
of the topic. [OT] is usally a good hint about the quality of the 
topic but people must remember to add it when they slide.
Jul 30 2016
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 23:33:27 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 23:11:23 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic 
 they ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


 I would love to see the forum evolve into something similar to 
 reddit, where everyone can judge the value of a comment/thread 
 and off-topic threads (or threads with low-values) get 
 down-voted very quickly. It might also help to avoid such 50 
 pages threads (like auto-decoding) as the most-important 
 thread stays on top and newcomers to the discussion don't have 
 to read everything to get the gist.


 Preliminary documentation work:

 https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-reddit-ranking-algorithms-work-ef111e33d0d9#.vawc5kat8

 And you wan submit the result on Pantallex DFeeds.

 The widget on the homepage must use something similar (except 
 for up/down) votes. So at least 10 replies + something with the 
 age of the topic. [OT] is usally a good hint about the quality 
 of the topic but people must remember to add it when they slide.


I am not sure whether CyberShadow has the time to add this 
feature, so I doubt this will come in the near future without 
someone volunteering and implementing it. The code is here, so if 
anyone wants to send him a PR:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed

 From recent experiences one should definitely get the okay of 
Andrei & Walter first that such a huge change is wanted.

In any case I was trying to say that we could use reddit more 
actively, we have our own subreddit 
(https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language), but it's not used for 
discussions. So maybe killing the bot & actively encouraging a 
discussion to move to reddit once it hits the OT barrier, might 
be an easy solution.

I opened a thread on reddit about this, in case you are 
interested ;-)

https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language/comments/4vel7m/can_we_kill_the_dlang_bot_and_its_ghost_threads
Jul 30 2016
parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 23:43:33 UTC, Seb wrote:

 In any case I was trying to say that we could use reddit more 
 actively, we have our own subreddit 
 (https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language), but it's not used for 
 discussions. So maybe killing the bot & actively encouraging a 
 discussion to move to reddit once it hits the OT barrier, might 
 be an easy solution.

 I opened a thread on reddit about this, in case you are 
 interested ;-)

 https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language/comments/4vel7m/can_we_kill_the_dlang_bot_and_its_ghost_threads


I added my thoughts to that thread. You should probably post this 
in general as well, as few people are going to see your 
announcement here. I wouldn't ask what people think though. I'd 
just say you've started doing it. Anyone is free to post 
discussions in that subreddit.
Jul 30 2016
prev sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 23:11:23 UTC, Seb wrote:

 I would love to see the forum evolve into something
 similar to reddit


I have a strong dislike of reddit (and thus rarely post there), 
it is really hard to use and the voting system is petty.

The D ng isn't perfect, but it is basically OK. I do think some 
of us ought to use a bit more discretion when posting, and it 
might help for some of us to call things out... or sometimes be 
quiet and not feed the trolls, but for the most part it is decent 
here.
Jul 30 2016
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 00:04:41 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 I have a strong dislike of reddit (and thus rarely post there), 
 it is really hard to use and the voting system is petty.


But this would be our own subreddit. I don't disagree if you're 
talking about r/programming.
Jul 30 2016
parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 04:51:13 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 But this would be our own subreddit. I don't disagree if you're 
 talking about r/programming.


Oh, the people are terrible, but the platform is worse - I don't 
like the tree view nor the voting system. It makes it really hard 
to follow developing discussions and judge the content for 
yourself.

I'm someone who either reads the whole thread and tries to 
respond holistically or just doesn't post at all (usually), so 
segmenting the thread into subthreads with new stuff popping up 
in the middle at random where it is really hard to actually find 
it (sometimes I search a reddit page for "minutes ago"...) just 
kills it.

Reddit encourages hyper fragmentation and repeating the same 
opinions over and over again.
Jul 31 2016
prev sibling parent Jon Degenhardt <jond noreply.com> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 22:52:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:30:55 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic they 
 ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 Fucking schyzo ;)
 Have you took your little pills today ?


 Well this is beautiful marketing for the language. At some 
 point, the leadership will need to put away ideology and get 
 realistic about what belongs on this site.


I agree with this sentiment. One of D's strengths is the helpful 
responses on the Learn forum. It is something the D community can 
be proud of. Participants in such personal attacks may view it as 
primarily as a 1-1 interchange, but they do take away from this 
strength. Better would be to move personal conflicts to some 
other venue.
Jul 31 2016
prev sibling parent reply LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody who 
 actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep thinking 
 that. also, don't forget to teach physics to physicians, 
 medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure that you will 
 have a great success as a stupidiest comic they ever seen in 
 their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?messageID=831486󊿾

Again an evidence of your super ego. You think that your own 
experiences stand for everybody while it's actually representing 
anything byt you, which is quite near from the nil.
Jul 31 2016
parent reply Gorge Jingale <Frifj mail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 10:11:46 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody who 
 actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep thinking 
 that. also, don't forget to teach physics to physicians, 
 medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure that you will 
 have a great success as a stupidiest comic they ever seen in 
 their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?messageID=831486󊿾

 Again an evidence of your super ego. You think that your own 
 experiences stand for everybody while it's actually 
 representing anything byt you, which is quite near from the nil.


He clearly suffers from NPD. I believe this is due to ignorance 
of experience. With such little real world experience one 
conjures up their own fabricated sense of reality that revolves 
around themselves. Such people lack the ability to understand 
others experiences and write them off because they do not 
coincide with their own. It's a form of the god complex, yet 
clearly these people are not god and generally not even that 
intelligent, experienced in life , etc, or happen just to be good 
at one thing which they treat as the only thing that matters; 
which is illogical and insane but very convenient for them.
Jul 31 2016
parent LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 18:15:49 UTC, Gorge Jingale wrote:

 On Sunday, 31 July 2016 at 10:11:46 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:24:55 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Saturday, 30 July 2016 at 12:18:08 UTC, LaTeigne wrote:

 it you think that you know the things better than somebody 
 who actually *lived* there in those times... well, keep 
 thinking that. also, don't forget to teach physics to 
 physicians, medicine to medics, and so on. i'm pretty sure 
 that you will have a great success as a stupidiest comic they 
 ever seen in their life.

 also, don't bother answering me, i won't see it anyway.


 https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?messageID=831486󊿾

 Again an evidence of your super ego. You think that your own 
 experiences stand for everybody while it's actually 
 representing anything byt you, which is quite near from the 
 nil.


 He clearly suffers from NPD. I believe this is due to ignorance 
 of experience. With such little real world experience one 
 conjures up their own fabricated sense of reality that revolves 
 around themselves. Such people lack the ability to understand 
 others experiences and write them off because they do not 
 coincide with their own. It's a form of the god complex, yet 
 clearly these people are not god and generally not even that 
 intelligent, experienced in life , etc, or happen just to be 
 good at one thing which they treat as the only thing that 
 matters; which is illogical and insane but very convenient for 
 them.


No his condition is not NPD. The other day he said publicly on 
IRC what it's but I don't remember the exact name. But it's 
serious, e.g you can find it in the DSM-5, with a specific code, 
designation etc.

Let's close this discussion for real this time. I'm sorry for the 
trolling but at a time i wanted to be right for this stupid story 
of academic license...
Aug 01 2016