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digitalmars.D.learn - Python -> Java -> D ?

reply David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson gmail.com> writes:
I am a Python scripter in search of a language with better performance. I do a
lot of signal processing in my job and I think I've pushed Python as far as it
will go. Recently, I have written a few programs in D and have been impressed
with (a) how easy the transition from Python has been, (2) the large boost in
performance for my code. 

Here's the question:

Should my second language be a new language like D? Or, would I be better off
mastering something more mainstream such as C or C++?

The reason I ask is that D is similar enough to Python in terms of abstraction
that I might be better off in the long run mastering something lower level such
as C or C++, or higher level such as a good functional language like Lisp or
Ocaml. 

I've noticed D is still quite immature in some ways. It has no printed books (a
sign of market share) as compared to the dozen os so books written about C/C++
in my specific scientific discipline alone.  Also,  the standard library is in
flux (Phobos vs Tango) whereas more mature languages have settled down.

In short, I like D, but maybe I would be better of learning something else. So,
some of you alpha-geeks on this list: would you learn D next in my position or
something else?
Apr 22 2007
parent reply Kirk McDonald <kirklin.mcdonald gmail.com> writes:
David Finlayson wrote:

 I am a Python scripter in search of a language with better
 performance. I do a lot of signal processing in my job and I think
 I've pushed Python as far as it will go. Recently, I have written a
 few programs in D and have been impressed with (a) how easy the
 transition from Python has been, (2) the large boost in performance
 for my code.
 
 Here's the question:
 
 Should my second language be a new language like D? Or, would I be
 better off mastering something more mainstream such as C or C++?
 
 The reason I ask is that D is similar enough to Python in terms of
 abstraction that I might be better off in the long run mastering
 something lower level such as C or C++, or higher level such as a
 good functional language like Lisp or Ocaml.
 
 I've noticed D is still quite immature in some ways. It has no
 printed books (a sign of market share) as compared to the dozen os so
 books written about C/C++ in my specific scientific discipline alone.
 Also,  the standard library is in flux (Phobos vs Tango) whereas more
 mature languages have settled down.
 
 In short, I like D, but maybe I would be better of learning something
 else. So, some of you alpha-geeks on this list: would you learn D
 next in my position or something else?
 


Well, maybe I'm a little biased, but I think Python and D are a potent 
combination. You could do worse.

That said, you might do well by picking up a copy of K&R[1] and learning 
C.  It is good to learn the low-level details of the machine. Also, very 
nearly every library in existence speaks C; it is the closest thing to a 
lingua franca in the programming world. And a lot (but not all) of what 
you'd learn doing C would apply to D (not to mention C++).

[1] The C Programming Language, by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie

-- 
Kirk McDonald
http://kirkmcdonald.blogspot.com
Pyd: Connecting D and Python
http://pyd.dsource.org
Apr 22 2007
parent reply Chris Nicholson-Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
Kirk McDonald wrote:

 David Finlayson wrote:

 I am a Python scripter in search of a language with better
 performance. I do a lot of signal processing in my job and I think
 I've pushed Python as far as it will go. Recently, I have written a
 few programs in D and have been impressed with (a) how easy the
 transition from Python has been, (2) the large boost in performance
 for my code.

 Here's the question:

 Should my second language be a new language like D? Or, would I be
 better off mastering something more mainstream such as C or C++?

 The reason I ask is that D is similar enough to Python in terms of
 abstraction that I might be better off in the long run mastering
 something lower level such as C or C++, or higher level such as a
 good functional language like Lisp or Ocaml.

 I've noticed D is still quite immature in some ways. It has no
 printed books (a sign of market share) as compared to the dozen os so
 books written about C/C++ in my specific scientific discipline alone.
 Also,  the standard library is in flux (Phobos vs Tango) whereas more
 mature languages have settled down.

 In short, I like D, but maybe I would be better of learning something
 else. So, some of you alpha-geeks on this list: would you learn D
 next in my position or something else?


 
 Well, maybe I'm a little biased, but I think Python and D are a potent 
 combination. You could do worse.
 
 That said, you might do well by picking up a copy of K&R[1] and learning 
 C.  It is good to learn the low-level details of the machine. Also, very 
 nearly every library in existence speaks C; it is the closest thing to a 
 lingua franca in the programming world. And a lot (but not all) of what 
 you'd learn doing C would apply to D (not to mention C++).
 
 [1] The C Programming Language, by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie
 


I'll second that.  I started out with various flavors of BASIC (first was
BASIC/1a on old 
Tandy machines), then later learned C in school.  With a working knowledge of C
in hand, 
I've found picking up nearly any other language rather straightforward -- even
languages 
notably distant /from/ C.

-- Chris Nicholson-Sauls
Apr 22 2007
parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote:

 Kirk McDonald wrote:

 David Finlayson wrote:

 I am a Python scripter in search of a language with better
 performance. I do a lot of signal processing in my job and I think
 I've pushed Python as far as it will go. Recently, I have written a
 few programs in D and have been impressed with (a) how easy the
 transition from Python has been, (2) the large boost in performance
 for my code.

 Here's the question:

 Should my second language be a new language like D? Or, would I be
 better off mastering something more mainstream such as C or C++?

 [...]


 Well, maybe I'm a little biased, but I think Python and D are a potent 
 combination. You could do worse.

 That said, you might do well by picking up a copy of K&R[1] and 
 learning C.  It is good to learn the low-level details of the machine. 
 Also, very nearly every library in existence speaks C; it is the 
 closest thing to a lingua franca in the programming world. And a lot 
 (but not all) of what you'd learn doing C would apply to D (not to 
 mention C++).

 [1] The C Programming Language, by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie


 
 I'll second that.  I started out with various flavors of BASIC (first 
 was BASIC/1a on old Tandy machines), then later learned C in school.  
 With a working knowledge of C in hand, I've found picking up nearly any 
 other language rather straightforward -- even languages notably distant 
 /from/ C.


I'm a K&R devotee too.  Short, sweet, and to the point.  I went from 
self-taught BASIC to self-taught C via K&R without too much trouble. 
And that was as a know-nothing college freshman.

If you're going to continue to use Python then knowing C will probably 
be more valuable to you in the long run.  C is the lingua franca of all 
popular operating systems today.  Any C++ APIs presented by the OS are 
most likely wrappers around an underlying C API.  The Python API for 
writing extension modules in native code is a C API.  And as you already 
hinted you are much more likely to find working code that you can borrow 
in C than you are in D.

But *after* you learn C then D is probably a great 2nd step.  D is 
mostly a superset of C, so you more or less have to learn C as part of 
learning D anyway.  D can also call C libraries directly.  So anything 
you write or obtain that's written in C, can be used pretty easily from 
D.  You need to translate the C header file to D, but you don't 
generally need to write any new functions.

I think I can sum up my recommendations succinctly by saying

    "D comes after C"

:-)

--bb
Apr 22 2007
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote:

 Kirk McDonald wrote:

 David Finlayson wrote:

 I am a Python scripter in search of a language with better
 performance. I do a lot of signal processing in my job and I think
 I've pushed Python as far as it will go. Recently, I have written a
 few programs in D and have been impressed with (a) how easy the
 transition from Python has been, (2) the large boost in performance
 for my code.

 Here's the question:

 Should my second language be a new language like D? Or, would I be
 better off mastering something more mainstream such as C or C++?

 [...]


 Well, maybe I'm a little biased, but I think Python and D are a 
 potent combination. You could do worse.

 That said, you might do well by picking up a copy of K&R[1] and 
 learning C.  It is good to learn the low-level details of the 
 machine. Also, very nearly every library in existence speaks C; it is 
 the closest thing to a lingua franca in the programming world. And a 
 lot (but not all) of what you'd learn doing C would apply to D (not 
 to mention C++).

 [1] The C Programming Language, by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie


 I'll second that.  I started out with various flavors of BASIC (first 
 was BASIC/1a on old Tandy machines), then later learned C in school.  
 With a working knowledge of C in hand, I've found picking up nearly 
 any other language rather straightforward -- even languages notably 
 distant /from/ C.


 
 I'm a K&R devotee too.  Short, sweet, and to the point.  I went from 
 self-taught BASIC to self-taught C via K&R without too much trouble. And 
 that was as a know-nothing college freshman.
 
 If you're going to continue to use Python then knowing C will probably 
 be more valuable to you in the long run.  C is the lingua franca of all 
 popular operating systems today.  Any C++ APIs presented by the OS are 
 most likely wrappers around an underlying C API.  The Python API for 
 writing extension modules in native code is a C API.  And as you already 
 hinted you are much more likely to find working code that you can borrow 
 in C than you are in D.
 
 But *after* you learn C then D is probably a great 2nd step.  D is 
 mostly a superset of C, so you more or less have to learn C as part of 
 learning D anyway.  D can also call C libraries directly.  So anything 
 you write or obtain that's written in C, can be used pretty easily from 
 D.  You need to translate the C header file to D, but you don't 
 generally need to write any new functions.
 
 I think I can sum up my recommendations succinctly by saying
 
    "D comes after C"
 



I throw my hat in with all of these guys. C is a great next step for 
you. One of the things I've always liked about C is that there are very 
few surprises behind the code you type and the compiled output. There 
are a few behaviors in the spec that are undefined and left up to the 
implementation, but for most of what you do things are consistent across 
platforms and compilers.

Since every language knows how to talk to it, a good grounding in C will 
often come in handy. You might need to revert to C to enhance 
performance (e.g., reimplementing a custom python module in C) or 
perhaps interface with legacy code (e.g., when using a more modern 
language like Java or D on a new project in a company that has an 
extensive C code base).

I also think that learning to work with manual memory management and how 
to avoid all of the associated pitfalls (buffer overruns, uninitialized 
variables, etc...) is a great education. It's good to have the big 
picture on why modern languages have so many safety nets built into the 
core.
Apr 22 2007
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Mike Parker" <aldacron71 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:f0h40u$2q1b$1 digitalmars.com...

 I also think that learning to work with manual memory management and how 
 to avoid all of the associated pitfalls (buffer overruns, uninitialized 
 variables, etc...) is a great education. It's good to have the big picture 
 on why modern languages have so many safety nets built into the core.


Exactly.. if nothing else, learning C will give you an appreciation of the 
simplicity and expressiveness that things like garbage collection lend to D.
Apr 22 2007
next sibling parent reply Daniel Lucraft <dan fluentradical.com> writes:
Interesting. I'm in the same position as David, shopping for a low-level
language to add to a scripting language, though it's Ruby in this case. So I
tried out my first D last night, rewrote a 100 line Ruby script into a 130 line
D program, and got a 10x speedup. That's a good combination of expressiveness
and speed.

Jarrett Billingsley Wrote:

 Exactly.. if nothing else, learning C will give you an appreciation of the 
 simplicity and expressiveness that things like garbage collection lend to D. 


OTOH what you say is true, and C is a good fit for Ruby, like Python. Also, if
I did learn D next, that would make the languages I know Ruby, Prolog and D.
Not a great job-market combination!
Apr 23 2007
parent reply jcc7 <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
== Quote from Daniel Lucraft (dan fluentradical.com)'s article

 OTOH what you say is true, and C is a good fit for Ruby, like Python.
 Also, if I did learn D next, that would make the languages I know
 Ruby, Prolog and D. Not a great job-market combination!


The rubyd project (http://code.google.com/p/rubyd/) may be helpful for people
that
want to use D and Ruby together. But I don't really know anything about the
project (and I don't even really know anything about Ruby), so I could be very
wrong.

(It's also possible the rubyd project was abandoned months ago because I can't
tell how long it's been since the code has been updated.)

jcc7
Apr 23 2007
parent Daniel Lucraft <dan fluentradical.com> writes:
jcc7 Wrote:

 The rubyd project (http://code.google.com/p/rubyd/) may be helpful for people
that
 want to use D and Ruby together. But I don't really know anything about the
 project (and I don't even really know anything about Ruby), so I could be very
wrong.


Thanks for the link, that would be very useful library. I might try contacting
the author.
Apr 23 2007
prev sibling parent David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the candid thoughts.

I periodically brush off my intro to C book and give a few chapters a whirl,
but I have never mastered the language. Maybe it is about time.

David 

Jarrett Billingsley Wrote:


 "Mike Parker" <aldacron71 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
 news:f0h40u$2q1b$1 digitalmars.com...

 I also think that learning to work with manual memory management and how 
 to avoid all of the associated pitfalls (buffer overruns, uninitialized 
 variables, etc...) is a great education. It's good to have the big picture 
 on why modern languages have so many safety nets built into the core.


 
 Exactly.. if nothing else, learning C will give you an appreciation of the 
 simplicity and expressiveness that things like garbage collection lend to D.
Apr 23 2007