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digitalmars.D.announce - The Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge in D

reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my 
blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so much:

https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.
Feb 13 2018
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 02/13/2018 03:35 PM, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread today and I 
 thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my blog and finally 
 write an article showing why I like D so much:
 
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d
 
 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D features, 
 but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


This topic appeared on Learn a few months ago:

   https://forum.dlang.org/post/or0o85$tvc$1 digitalmars.com

Ali
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


What a great article!

I love the depth of explanation too, that really makes it 
worthwhile reading.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Seb wrote:


 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread today and I 
 thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my blog and finally 
 write an article showing why I like D so much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D features, but 
 maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


a typo:

	writefln!"%d"(foo");

it should be `"foo"`, i guess. ;-)

great article. now i want to learn D again, it looks so beautiful and 
powerful! ;-)
Feb 13 2018
parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 02:57:28 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 Seb wrote:


 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 a typo:

 	writefln!"%d"(foo");

 it should be `"foo"`, i guess. ;-)


Fixed. Thanks!


 great article. now i want to learn D again, it looks so 
 beautiful and powerful! ;-)


Thanks!
Well, you could upstream your fork and go back to "pure" D again 
;-)
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Typo with "(~200 LoC)" and "> 300 LoCs"?
Feb 13 2018
parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 03:40:41 UTC, jmh530 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 Typo with "(~200 LoC)" and "> 300 LoCs"?


Fixed. Thanks!
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Arun Chandrasekaran <aruncxy gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


It takes a lot of time and effort to write such quality content. 
Thanks for detailed explanations.

// import std.algorithm, std.exception, std.format, std.range, 
std.stdio;
Do you think it is worth mentioning about 
std.experimental.scripting in section 2?

Syntax highlighting is missing in some snippets.
Feb 13 2018
parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 06:42:23 UTC, Arun 
Chandrasekaran wrote:

 It takes a lot of time and effort to write such quality 
 content. Thanks for detailed explanations.


Thanks :)
Now if we had a magic automaton that makes more of these ...


 // import std.algorithm, std.exception, std.format, std.range, 
 std.stdio;
 Do you think it is worth mentioning about 
 std.experimental.scripting in section 2?


Well, it hasn't been released yet, but maybe I get around writing 
another article ;-)
Also looking at the C++ "competitor", I think we aren't too bad 
off with a few modules for now:

---
#include <algorithm>
#include <experimental/filesystem>
#include <fstream>
#include <iostream>
#include <optional>
#include <string>
#include <string_view>
#include <sstream>
#include <utility>
#include <vector>

using namespace std;
namespace fs = std::experimental::filesystem;
---


 Syntax highlighting is missing in some snippets.


Thanks for the pointer. Fixed!
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Cool! The contrast of the code is very low (very on light brown?),
Feb 13 2018
parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 07:11:08 UTC, Nicholas Wilson 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 Cool! The contrast of the code is very low (very on light 
 brown?),


Thanks for the feedback. Fixed!
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Franklin <slavo5150 yahoo.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Nice work!  I was recently asked by my employer "why D?".  I 
think I need to show them this.


 Aren’t you concered that Rust is faster in this benchmark?





 Not at all. The challenge was to write expressive code and if 
 performance really matters I can always opt to optimize the hot 
 path of the program and don’t need to pay a > 4x code 
 duplication cost upfront.


You've gotta address this, IMO.  What's the 
performance/expressiveness tradeoff like in D?

Mike
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 08:06:13 UTC, Mike Franklin 
wrote:

 Aren’t you concered that Rust is faster in this benchmark?





 Not at all. The challenge was to write expressive code and if 
 performance really matters I can always opt to optimize the 
 hot path of the program and don’t need to pay a > 4x code 
 duplication cost upfront.


 You've gotta address this, IMO.  What's the 
 performance/expressiveness tradeoff like in D?

 Mike


Good point. I tried to address this and changed the text to:



 Not at all. The challenge was to write expressive code. When 
 performance really matters D provides the same tools as C or 
 C++ and D even supports native interoperability with C and most 
 of C++.



 In this example, however, I/O is the bottleneck and D provides 
 a few convenience features like using locked file handles, s.t. 
 accessing files is thread-safe by default, or supporting 
 unicode input. However, it’s easy to opt out of such 
 productivity features and for the interested readers I have 
 attached a slightly optimized version at the end.
Feb 14 2018
parent Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 14:17:31 UTC, Seb wrote:

 changed the text to:


 ...and D even supports native interoperability with C and most 
 of C++.




Great!
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Simen =?UTF-8?B?S2rDpnLDpXM=?= <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Nice! Good overview of many of the good things in D.

Nitpicks:


 I used the following rdmd script to generate a simple CSV file 
 with 10 fields and 10m lines:
 
 rdmd --eval='10.iota.map!(a=> "field".text(a)).join(",")
 .repeat(10_00_000).joiner("\n").writeln' > input_big.csv


10_00_000 should probably be 10_000_000.



 They are only view on the actual memory and you don’t copy the 
 array, but just the view on (in D it’s called a slice).


Missing some words here: "only *a* view". "but just the view on" 
seems to be missing the second half of the sentence.


There's also a few typos: 'vauge' should be 'vague', 'it 
providers' should be 'it provides', 'shot yourself in the feet' 
should probably be 'shoot yourself in the foot'

Thanks for writing all this - it's a great intro to the language.

--
   Sien
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Sadly, he just picked the solution that used most C++17 features 
and not one that was clean and compact... :-/

I guess the point was to create a C++17 tutorial, and not a 
coding contest as such.
Feb 14 2018
parent reply drug <drug2004 bk.ru> writes:
14.02.2018 11:45, Ola Fosheim Grøstad пишет:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread today and 
 I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my blog and 
 finally write an article showing why I like D so much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D features, 
 but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 
 Sadly, he just picked the solution that used most C++17 features and not 
 one that was clean and compact... :-/
 
 I guess the point was to create a C++17 tutorial, and not a coding 
 contest as such.


It's sadly that using most C++17 features fails to provide clean and 
compact solution...
Feb 14 2018
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 08:53:31 UTC, drug wrote:

 It's sadly that using most C++17 features fails to provide 
 clean and compact solution...


I don't usually use iostream, but this "challenge" was a 
reasonable fit for it. If you look over the 4 submissions then 
the iostream one provides the best encapsulation of the problem:

http://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/4675a74c8124750f

C++ blogposts tend to choke on features... usually not good 
examples of maintainable code.
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 08:53:31 UTC, drug wrote:

 14.02.2018 11:45, Ola Fosheim Grøstad пишет:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to 
 revive my blog and finally write an article showing why I 
 like D so much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 
 Sadly, he just picked the solution that used most C++17 
 features and not one that was clean and compact... :-/
 
 I guess the point was to create a C++17 tutorial, and not a 
 coding contest as such.


 It's sadly that using most C++17 features fails to provide 
 clean and compact solution...


yeah.. even the more modern C++ code still makes me want to stay 
clear of it...(perhaps even more so).

I just never get the same feeling when I look at D programs.
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 09:28:48 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 yeah.. even the more modern C++ code still makes me want to 
 stay clear of it...(perhaps even more so).

 I just never get the same feeling when I look at D programs.


I get the same feeling from both languages, to be honest.  
Average library code for both languages are harder to read than I 
think should be the norm (granted Python libs can also be 
somewhat hard to read, but still much easier on average).  Both 
languages are easier to read when you spend time with them 
yourself, obviously.  Both languages are easier to read when the 
programmer has been conservative in his/her use of features.

This situation is what happens when you add features at a high 
rate in the early years and don't want to clean up because of 
backwards compatibility. C++ has been at it for longer and are 
adding more features at a higher rate than D... so C++ becomes 
harder and harder to master if you read other people's arbitrary 
code. That doesn't mean D shouldn't clean up... I'd say it is 
necessary to get ahead.

For both languages you can always stick to your own idioms and 
write cleaner code than you see on github, and blog posts tend to 
be feature-show-offs (surprisingly often written by people who 
don't write a lot of code in the language they are posting about) 
so I don't think blogs are the right measure. Look at large code 
bases that are in widespread use to get an idea of what happens 
over time in terms of maintainability.

Anyway, C++ at this point has slightly better lambdas than D and 
D will notice the competition if C++ ends up adding stackless 
coroutines (e.g. Python like generators). Not a big discrepancy 
in features at this point, but C++ is moving at a higher rate... 
and that should be a concern if C++ is viewed as a competitor.

If C++ isn't viewed as a competitor, why bother with repetitive 
complaining about C++?
Feb 14 2018
parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 09:50:31 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 If C++ isn't viewed as a competitor, why bother with repetitive 
 complaining about C++?


Because it doesn't get enough criticism ;-)

I believe the programming langauges of the future, and the ones 
people should invest their time learning, are those that can be 
best understood in the least amount of time.

This is because programs are getting larger and more complex, and 
to understand them at all, they have to be simple to understand.

C++ is not simple. It never has been. The so called 
'modernisation' of it is not helping me to change my mind about 
it ;-)

And chances are, when you go to work in some C++ environment, 
you'll have to deal with lots of legacy style code - which you 
will be expected to understand as well.

It's time to stop 'improving' C++ and redesign it from scratch - 
or move to D.
Feb 14 2018
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 10:17:21 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 I believe the programming langauges of the future, and the ones 
 people should invest their time learning, are those that can be 
 best understood in the least amount of time.


Yes, I would say so, unless they bring something new to the table 
like formal verification (proven correctness) or some kind of 
expert system geared towards a set of common domains (e.g. data 
flow).


 This is because programs are getting larger and more complex, 
 and to understand them at all, they have to be simple to 
 understand.


Right, so which is an argument in favour of agent based systems. 
Kind of the direction that has happened on the server side with 
micro services.


 C++ is not simple. It never has been. The so called 
 'modernisation' of it is not helping me to change my mind about 
 it ;-)


Right, because, even though C was simple, it isn't simple to 
debug, so C++ has all that + a wide variety of overlapping 
features. So C++ cannot become simple.


 It's time to stop 'improving' C++ and redesign it from scratch 
 - or move to D.


Well, yes, but then D needs to make a case for itself and do a 
reset so that the disadvantages in switching is offset by the 
advantages. Either that or some other language will squeeze in, 
which is ok too. I don't care who does it, could even be Rust if 
they add some features, but it should happen. Right.
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Arredondo <arm.plus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Down in the 'Other cool D features' you have:


* Inline documentation
* Contracts
...
* Built-in documentation
* Contracts and invariants


Nice read!
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
Seb,

I believe this blog post would make a great article for Overload or
CVu.

On Tue, 2018-02-13 at 23:35 +0000, Seb via Digitalmars-d-announce
wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread=20
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my=20
 blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so much:
=20
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-i
 n-d
=20
 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D=20
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 09:42:47 UTC, Russel Winder 
wrote:

 Seb,

 I believe this blog post would make a great article for 
 Overload or CVu.


Cool idea, but I'm not so familiar with these. What can/should I 
do to make this happen?
We can also talk in private (seb [at] wilzba [dot] ch).
Feb 14 2018
parent Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
On Wed, 2018-02-14 at 13:21 +0000, Seb via Digitalmars-d-announce
wrote:

 On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 09:42:47 UTC, Russel Winder=20
 wrote:

 Seb,
=20
 I believe this blog post would make a great article for=20
 Overload or CVu.


=20
 Cool idea, but I'm not so familiar with these. What can/should I=20
 do to make this happen?
 We can also talk in private (seb [at] wilzba [dot] ch).


For the email list record, CVu and Overload are the ACCU journals.
Historically Overload has been a C++ language, tools, and techniques
vehicle put is now adding detailed technical articles on other
languages. CVu has anything else, including some technical stuff.

https://accu.org/index.php/journal

Seb and I have started a personal email exchange and I am getting the
editors of said journals involved.
=20
--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Very nice read!!! Thank you!


One "typo?" Chapter 8)


same format function that would normally be called at 
compile-time


  s/compile/run/

It would be good to say a little more about the '!' ct-parameter

At fist when reading D code coming from ruby (after, 
php,...C++,C, Pascal...),
I thought, that the ! is like in Ruby just an way to distinguish 
between a function modifying the contend or not (compare gsub to 
gsub!) it took sometime before this important bit came clear to 
me.
So just something, like functions in D may have two parameter 
brackets:
One for compile-time and one for run-time parameters:
fun!(ctParam)(rtParam) ... short fun!(cParam)() ... fun!ctparam

Other point:

Showing some more alternative D solutions for the same problem, 
might be a little contest in this thread, just post your shorter 
and better solutions :-)
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much


I first looked into C++ and Rust examples, just quickly without 
thinking them deeply. I thought that wow, the problem is probably 
more complicated than it looks. Seems to need many functions to 
solve eleganty.

Then when I saw your example I, of course, concluded that the 
problem is as simple as it seems. I would really have excepted 
C++ or at least Rust to come close to D, perhaps even achieve the 
same LoC count with a bit of luck.

Excellent article all-in-all, because it shown so many D features 
in a compact AND realistic way. I think a good D programmer might 
well write programs in that style for everyday use, not just for 
show. If someone asks "what would then be an unrealistic program 
then" it would be one that excessively uses introspection.

One improvement proposal: in the "Other features" part, you 
mention full compatibility with c. I think you should add "and 
with most of c++" because it might be a killer feature for some 
potential users.
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Gabriele <jgabriele fastmail.fm> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Great article! Thank you!

Typo: "and finally format bundles" --> "and finally std.format 
bundles".

Another typo: "In the latter article I will also present a 
solution which only uses 12 lines, but it uses the built-in 
std.csv module and I think D doesn’t even need to cheat." should 
probably instead start "Later in this article I'll also 
present..." or "Further down I'll also present".

But even then, I don't think you should discount or put off using 
std.csv as "cheating". I'm guessing std.csv handles things like 
quoted elements containing commas. I realize that maybe you're 
being pedagogic and wanting to show off D's File byLine and 
splitter, but I think the first thing a reader will think when 
they see you rolling your own csv reader by hand is that 
something must be wrong with D or it's ecosystem if you're 
resorting to this, and they'll run for the hills (especially in 
an intro article, *and* one in which you point out that the goal 
is *expressive* code).

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, when searching online for 
how to read in a csv file for a given language (see many examples 
at <http://rosettacode.org/wiki/CSV_data_manipulation>), if the 
example involves splitting on commas, I immediately assume it's 
either old/incorrect, the language is very low-level only, or 
else maybe the language's std lib must be impoverished.
Feb 14 2018
next sibling parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 17:13:28 UTC, John Gabriele 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 Great article! Thank you!


Thanks for the typos. Fixed them.


 But even then, I don't think you should discount or put off 
 using std.csv as "cheating". I'm guessing std.csv handles 
 things like quoted elements containing commas.


Yes.


 I realize that maybe you're being pedagogic and wanting to show 
 off D's File byLine and splitter,


Yes.


 but I think the first thing a reader will think when they see 
 you rolling your own csv reader by hand is that something must 
 be wrong with D or it's ecosystem if you're resorting to this, 
 and they'll run for the hills (especially in an intro article, 
 *and* one in which you point out that the goal is *expressive* 
 code).


Understood. Fair point.
I changed the motivation of why std.csv isn't used and added a 
warning that one shouldn't roll one's own CSV parser.


 I immediately assume it's either old/incorrect, the language is 
 very low-level only, or else maybe the language's std lib must 
 be impoverished.


Haha. This could be Rust's or C++'s new slogan ;-)
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 17:13:28 UTC, John Gabriele 
wrote:

 But even then, I don't think you should discount or put off 
 using std.csv as "cheating".


Yes and no.  The problem with all these exercises is that they 
say nothing about the language and a lot about some default 
library, which isn't particularly revealing.

For instance, Swift drags in all of Os-X on the default platform, 
so writing an audio/video loader would be relatively short in 
comparison to other languages. Would that be fair or instructive? 
Of course not. The Os-X libraries are quite massive.

Anyway, these kinds of exercises are only impressive for people 
looking for an alternative to scripting...

For general system programming you need to show off the language 
and not the esoteric features of the standard library. Basically 
show off how it can deal with a task it has not been designed 
for. Which is the typical use scenario.
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2018-02-14 19:00, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:


 For instance, Swift drags in all of Os-X on the default platform, so 
 writing an audio/video loader would be relatively short in comparison to 
 other languages. Would that be fair or instructive? Of course not. The 
 Os-X libraries are quite massive.


For a fair comparison Swift should only use libraries that are available 
both on macOS and Linux.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Feb 14 2018
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 18:33:33 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:

 On 2018-02-14 19:00, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 For a fair comparison Swift should only use libraries that are 
 available both on macOS and Linux.


Are any projects using Swift outside of the Mac eco system?
Would it be more fair if Swift was Mac only? (re Visual Basic)

Would you include React when evaluating Javascript and Angular4 
when evaluating TypeScript? Why should a standard library be 
evaluated differently from any other library?

That's more the issue.

If the standard library for one language ensure better interop 
between third party libraries, then it becomes significant, but 
if it is an independent feature then I see no difference between 
standard library and third party library.
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Someone posted a comment in our subreddit that you may want to 
check:
https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language/comments/7xi9n3/the_expressive_c17_coding_challenge_in_d/
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 18:55:23 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 Someone posted a comment in our subreddit that you may want to 
 check:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/d_language/comments/7xi9n3/the_expressive_c17_coding_challenge_in_d/


Thanks a lot for the ping!
Someone posted it also to /r/programming - it's on the second 
place as of now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7xih66/the_expressive_c17_coding_challenge_in_d
Feb 14 2018
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 19:40:12 UTC, Seb wrote:

 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7xih66/the_expressive_c17_coding_challenge_in_d


It is getting shot down…
Feb 14 2018
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 20:14:41 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 19:40:12 UTC, Seb wrote:

 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7xih66/the_expressive_c17_coding_challenge_in_d


 It is getting shot down…


That's implied when someone says it's posted on Reddit.

There's (almost) no such thing as bad publicity...
Feb 14 2018
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 20:37:24 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 There's (almost) no such thing as bad publicity...


Programming languages and operating systems have a long history 
of hot advocacy...  not sure how it relates to adoption, but it 
affects perception.

E.g. vocal mac users gave the mac a certain (not so great) 
reputation in tech circles. I don't think that perception changed 
till iOs and mac mini.
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/13/2018 3:35 PM, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread today and I
thought 
 this is an excellent opportunity to revive my blog and finally write an
article 
 showing why I like D so much:
 
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d
 
 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D features, but
maybe 
 it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Very nice article, you write well!
Feb 14 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 2/13/18 6:35 PM, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread today and I 
 thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive my blog and finally 
 write an article showing why I like D so much:
 
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d
 
 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D features, 
 but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Nice article!

Typos and Grammar:

" How often how you encountered code like a + b"

How often have

---

"Yes, the D compiler does all the hard work for."

for you

---

"In short: the compiler does a few smart lowering for you"

lowerings

---

"Yes D is statically typed, but the compiler is pretty smart, so we can 
let him do all the hard for for us."

hard work

"auto is a filler word for the compiler that means “whatever the type of 
the assignment, use this as type of this variable”."

the type

---

"Okay to recap, we have taken the input of a file by line, splitted 
every line by commas"

splitting

---

This part is slightly incorrect:

" Isn’t this done before the enforce is called?

No, lazy is lazy and the string concatenation doesn’t happen at the 
caller site, but can be requested explicitly by the callee."

Technically, the concatenation is done at compile-time, which can be 
seen via AST: https://run.dlang.io/is/OVKxee

But normally, if the concatenation involved runtime strings, it would be 
done lazily.

-Steve
Feb 15 2018
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Thursday, 15 February 2018 at 16:22:17 UTC, Steven 
Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 2/13/18 6:35 PM, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:
 
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d
 
 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


 Nice article!


Thanks!


 Typos and Grammar:


Thanks a lot!
Yeah I shouldn't have published it directly after writing it...


 This part is slightly incorrect:


Good point! Thanks.
I reworded the entire paragraph and it now shows the AST:

https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d/#4-whats-up-with-this-enforce

My idea was that we have this subtextual message: "look, D isn't 
complicated and we can always look behind the scenes".
Feb 15 2018
parent Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 2/15/18 2:11 PM, Seb wrote:


 I reworded the entire paragraph and it now shows the AST:
 
 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d/#4-whats-
p-with-this-enforce 


eh...

"string which is an alias for an array of const(char) elements"

It's not actually, it's an array of immutable(char) elements.

But I think the reason we see const(char)[] delegate and not 
immutable(char)[] delegate, is that enforce's actual signature is:

T enforce(E : Throwable = Exception, T)(T value, lazy const(char)[] msg 
= null, string file = __FILE__, size_t line = __LINE__)

Not lazy string as you originally said.

https://dlang.org/phobos/std_exception.html#.enforce

In fact, you can see "string" output by the AST generator in other 
places (e.g. void main(string[] args) ), so even that whole explanation 
that it has "resolved" string already is misleading ;)

BTW, I have to click on the AST button on run.dlang.io (at least on my 
browser) to see the generated AST, it's not done automatically.


 My idea was that we have this subtextual message: "look, D isn't 
 complicated and we can always look behind the scenes".


I like the message, a lot! I think it's a very nice way to show some 
well-written D code while explaining each part so they make sense to 
outsiders.

-Steve
Feb 15 2018
prev sibling parent aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 23:35:36 UTC, Seb wrote:

 Someone revived the Expressive C++17 Coding Challenge thread 
 today and I thought this is an excellent opportunity to revive 
 my blog and finally write an article showing why I like D so 
 much:

 https://seb.wilzba.ch/b/2018/02/the-expressive-c17-coding-challenge-in-d

 It's mostly targeted at beginners as I explain many basic D 
 features, but maybe it's helpful for beginners looking into D.


Very well written. Nice read. I recommend you write more these 
days.
Feb 15 2018