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digitalmars.D.announce - Tango Conference 2008 - MiniD talk by by Jarrett Billingsley.

reply Peter Modzelewski <peter.modzelewski gmail.com> writes:
http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-m
nid-talk-video.html 

slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
Enjoy! :)
Oct 06 2008
next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Peter Modzelewski:

 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf


Quite nice.

I see no semicolons, I presume D sources too can spare them :-)

Multivalues seems dangerous, they look like the auto-flattening things of Perl.
I think I don't like them. I like true tuples plus the * (apply) syntax of
Python better to do similar things.

This:
global x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3
writeln(freep()) // writes 123
global a = [freep()] // a is [1, 2, 3]

In Python becomes about as:
x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3
a = [freep()] // a is [(1, 2, 3)]
somefunc(*freep()) // somefunc called with 3 arguments

Bye,
bearophile
Oct 06 2008
next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:34 AM, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:

 Peter Modzelewski:

 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf


 Quite nice.

 I see no semicolons, I presume D sources too can spare them :-)


Not quite as easily.  D has a lot more syntax and a lot more
opportunities to cause ambiguity.


 Multivalues seems dangerous, they look like the auto-flattening things of
Perl. I think I don't like them. I like true tuples plus the * (apply) syntax
of Python better to do similar things.


That's nice.
Oct 06 2008
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley:

 Not quite as easily.  D has a lot more syntax and a lot more
 opportunities to cause ambiguity.


Do you know of a language named Scala?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_(programming_language)
It's a Java-derived language that seems to have optional semicolons as well,
and it has a syntax that's probably about as complex as D one.

Bye,
bearophile
Oct 06 2008
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:54 AM, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley:

 Not quite as easily.  D has a lot more syntax and a lot more
 opportunities to cause ambiguity.


 Do you know of a language named Scala?
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_(programming_language)
 It's a Java-derived language that seems to have optional semicolons as well,
and it has a syntax that's probably about as complex as D one.


I'm not going to argue with you on this.  You're not going to get what
you want for D, sorry.
Oct 06 2008
parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley:

 You're not going to get what you want for D, sorry.<


I've seen so many things change, who knows what the future will bring us? Don't
be sad, Jarrett.

Bye and thank you,
bearophile
Oct 06 2008
prev sibling parent reply ore-sama <spam here.lot> writes:
bearophile Wrote:


 This:
 global x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3


this also seems dangerous to me.
Some language has syntax
(x, y, z) = freep()
Oct 09 2008
next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:48 AM, ore-sama <spam here.lot> wrote:

 bearophile Wrote:


 This:
 global x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3


 this also seems dangerous to me.
 Some language has syntax
 (x, y, z) = freep()


How is it dangerous?  It has precisely one meaning.  It's a perfectly
well-defined area of the language and does not incur any performance
penalty.

And if you really, really want to put multiple values into an object,
use an array.

local xyz = [freep()]
somefunc(freep.expand()) // somefunc called with 3 arguments
Oct 09 2008
parent ore-sama <spam here.lot> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley Wrote:


 On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:48 AM, ore-sama <spam here.lot> wrote:

 bearophile Wrote:


 This:
 global x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3


 this also seems dangerous to me.
 Some language has syntax
 (x, y, z) = freep()


 
 How is it dangerous?  It has precisely one meaning.  It's a perfectly
 well-defined area of the language and does not incur any performance
 penalty.


It behaves surprisingly compared to others C family languages: C, C++, Java,
Oct 09 2008
prev sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
ore-sama Wrote:

 This:
 global x, y, z = freep() // they are 1, 2, 3


 
 this also seems dangerous to me.
 Some language has syntax
 (x, y, z) = freep()


To answer I have to go partially OT. In Python you can put () around tuples,
but 99% of the times they are optional, so this syntax is accepted and Python
programmers often add those () to improve clarity:

(x, y, z) = freep()

Or to destructure the result (here freep2 returns a generic iterable pair
inside another pair):

((x, y), z) = freep2()

I don't like the syntax Python3 uses for tuples, I'd like them to be
compulsively enclosed by symbols, like python lists (arrays) and like all
collection literals in Fortress.

For example the bitwise operations may become named AND OR XOR NOT, that in
Python code aren't much common (currently and, not, or are the boolean
operators), freeing | to to denote tuples (and freeing other symbols):

x, y, z = freep()
((x, y), z) = freep2()
z = (!x & y) | (z & !w)

==>

|x, y, z| = freep()
||x, y|, z| = freep2()
z = (NOT x AND y) OR (z AND NOT w)

(I don't like that synax too much, anyway).
Fortress uses pairs of symbols to encose some of its collections:

{x, y, z}
{x: y, z: w}
{|x: y, z: w|}
(|x, y, x|)
{|x, y, z|}
[|x, y, z|]
... etc

Bye,
bearophile
Oct 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Peter Modzelewski
<peter.modzelewski gmail.com> wrote:

 http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-minid-talk-video.html
 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
 Enjoy! :)


I suppose I should also link to the MiniD site:

http://dsource.org/projects/minid

and mention that MiniD 2 is approaching a beta release :)

The slides only scratch the surface of the language's features.  Read more here:

http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/LanguageSpec2

and I've started a PIL-style walkthrough here:

http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Lang/GettingStarted
Oct 06 2008
parent reply BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley schrieb:

 On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Peter Modzelewski
 <peter.modzelewski gmail.com> wrote:

 http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-minid-talk-video.html
 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
 Enjoy! :)


 
 I suppose I should also link to the MiniD site:
 
 http://dsource.org/projects/minid
 
 and mention that MiniD 2 is approaching a beta release :)
 
 The slides only scratch the surface of the language's features.  Read more
here:
 
 http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/LanguageSpec2
 
 and I've started a PIL-style walkthrough here:
 
 http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Lang/GettingStarted


Hi Jarret,
I have'nt followed MiniD development for quit a while, Sorry. It seems 
to me that you are switching from Class instantiation to Prototype's 
clone() paradigmn. In case, and just in case ;), that I am right: Can 
you please explain: Why.

TIA, Bjoern
Oct 06 2008
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:21 AM, BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley schrieb:

 On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Peter Modzelewski
 <peter.modzelewski gmail.com> wrote:

 http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-minid-talk-video.html
 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
 Enjoy! :)


 I suppose I should also link to the MiniD site:

 http://dsource.org/projects/minid

 and mention that MiniD 2 is approaching a beta release :)

 The slides only scratch the surface of the language's features.  Read more
 here:

 http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/LanguageSpec2

 and I've started a PIL-style walkthrough here:

 http://dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Lang/GettingStarted


 Hi Jarret,
 I have'nt followed MiniD development for quit a while, Sorry. It seems to me
 that you are switching from Class instantiation to Prototype's clone()
 paradigmn. In case, and just in case ;), that I am right: Can you please
 explain: Why.

 TIA, Bjoern


They're simpler to implement as there is now only one type and one set
of lookup rules, and, well, it's cool.  Besides, MiniD is a dynamic
language, and if I were to make classes as dynamic as they could be,
you'd more or less end up with a prototype-based object system with an
arbitrary bifurcation between classes and their instances.  Which is
precisely what happened in the development of MD2, in fact.
Oct 06 2008
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley:

 They're simpler to implement as there is now only one type and one set
 of lookup rules, and, well, it's cool.  Besides, MiniD is a dynamic
 language, and if I were to make classes as dynamic as they could be,
 you'd more or less end up with a prototype-based object system with an
 arbitrary bifurcation between classes and their instances.  Which is
 precisely what happened in the development of MD2, in fact.


I agree they are probably simpler to implement. Regarding that bifurcation,
Python has solved it introducing metaclasses, so classes are objects too, that
is instances of a metaclass. This seems just to move the problem up one level,
but in most cases it solves the problem. But it also introduces some
complexity, and programming with metaclasses requires some skills.

Bye,
bearophile
Oct 06 2008
parent BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
bearophile schrieb:

 Jarrett Billingsley:

 They're simpler to implement as there is now only one type and one set
 of lookup rules, and, well, it's cool.  Besides, MiniD is a dynamic
 language, and if I were to make classes as dynamic as they could be,
 you'd more or less end up with a prototype-based object system with an
 arbitrary bifurcation between classes and their instances.  Which is
 precisely what happened in the development of MD2, in fact.


 
 I agree they are probably simpler to implement. Regarding that bifurcation,
Python has solved it introducing metaclasses, so classes are objects too, that
is instances of a metaclass. This seems just to move the problem up one level,
but in most cases it solves the problem. But it also introduces some
complexity, and programming with metaclasses requires some skills.
 
 Bye,
 bearophile


Hope you may find it interesting enough :)
A *small prototype-based programming language. Native compiled.
Runtime-loadable-prototypes! Yeah. Inspired by SELF/Smalltalk/Eiffel. 
Speed of C.

*4 keywords
http://isaacproject.u-strasbg.fr/li.html

Bjoern (I am just learning the language out of ?? I don't know.)
Oct 06 2008
prev sibling parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
Peter Modzelewski wrote:

 http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-m
nid-talk-video.html 
 
 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
 Enjoy! :)


Does MiniD support multiple OS threads or only fibers (for multicore 
processors, etc.)?
Oct 09 2008
parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Robert Fraser
<fraserofthenight gmail.com> wrote:

 Peter Modzelewski wrote:

 http://petermodzelewski.blogspot.com/2008/10/tango-conference-2008-minid-talk-video.html
 slides: http://team0xf.com/conference/minid.pdf
 Enjoy! :)


 Does MiniD support multiple OS threads or only fibers (for multicore
 processors, etc.)?


The language itself is not designed to be multithreaded and the
interpreter has not been designed with any consideration for it.
However, as long as only one system thread is using a MDVM object at
any given time, it should be fine, as the library is completely
reentrant and depends on no global state.  In that case, you can just
use normal synchronization on the VM and it should work.  Or, you
know, create multiple VMs and make a MiniD library to allow multiple
threads to communicate/spawn new VMs/whatever.
Oct 09 2008