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digitalmars.D.announce - Promoting D projects (or internet marketing 101)

reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel reinvention.

I've learned a lot about trying to get the word out on the internet with 
little to no marketing dollars, no marketing staff, no nothing. I 
suspect that most of you are in the same boat <g>, so I thought I'd 
share a bit about what I've learned.

1) Make a web page for it. A newsgroup posting here in 
digitalmars.D.announce is great for announcing the existence of the 
project, but then it scrolls away and gets forgotten. You need a web 
page for it to get it noticed in the future. Use dsource.org if you 
don't have your own, or the D wiki, etc.

2) Having your stuff findable by Google is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing you 
can do. The overwhelming majority of traffic to the Digital Mars web 
site is coming from google search results pages. If it isn't findable by 
Google, it might as well not exist. I won't get much into google search 
engine optimization here, as there are plenty of web sites on that 
(findable via google, of course!), but there are a couple highlights I 
want to hit.

3) Think about what, if you were looking for your project, you'd type 
into the google search box. Then, make sure those keywords are on your 
project description web page.

4) Include the phrase "D programming language" somewhere on every D web 
page you do. Don't put it in a graphic, put it in text so google will 
find it. This phrase helps build "brand" on the internet, and your D 
page will show up in google searches on D. Just using "D" by itself 
won't work (try it!).

5) Ask me to put a link to your page on 
www.digitalmars.com/d/dlinks.html. Send me the exact text to cut & paste 
in. Try to get reciprocal links from other relevant D pages. This will 
help people find it.

6) Submit links to your project releases to www.betamarker.com. Submit 
articles, tutorials, anything of interest to www.dzone.com, gamedev.net, 
www.artima.com or even www.digg.com. Let us know so we can digg them! It 
doesn't matter if the reference doesn't make it to the front page, it 
will still help.

7) Post on the newsgroup comp.programming to reach a more general audience.

8) People coming across D source code on the internet may not recognize 
it for what it is. I think it's probably a good idea to add the comment:

     // written in the D programming language

at the top of every published D source code file. I'm going to start 
doing that with Phobos source.

9) Take a look at related Wikipedia articles for which a relevant 
discussion about or link to your project might be appropriate.

10) In doing the above, be sure you're not spamming. Any links you do 
should be of genuine and relevant interest to the readers.

11) Doing this isn't just good for D, it's good for your career. 
Recruiters are going to google your name, and if they find all those 
cool projects you've done, it can only help.

And, of course, I should follow my own advice and turn this posting into 
a web page!
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 
 6) Submit links to your project releases to www.betamarker.com. Submit 
 articles, tutorials, anything of interest to www.dzone.com, gamedev.net, 
 www.artima.com or even www.digg.com. Let us know so we can digg them! It 
 doesn't matter if the reference doesn't make it to the front page, it 
 will still help.


I'd also suggest www.reddit.com.
Oct 31 2006
parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 
 6) Submit links to your project releases to www.betamarker.com. Submit
 articles, tutorials, anything of interest to www.dzone.com, gamedev.net,
 www.artima.com or even www.digg.com. Let us know so we can digg them! It
 doesn't matter if the reference doesn't make it to the front page, it
 will still help.


 
 I'd also suggest www.reddit.com.


From now on I will put Digg and Reddit buttons on my blog posts, I submitted
one article myself to reddit, and I got about 100 hits from reddit within
the first 24 hours. Not sure how good marketing it will be for D, though,
far from everything is positive (or at least I don't pretend that D is
ready for primetime, and try to expose frustrations that seems to get lost
in the newsgroup) ;) 

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
Nov 05 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 1) Make a web page for it. A newsgroup posting here in 
 digitalmars.D.announce is great for announcing the existence of the 
 project, but then it scrolls away and gets forgotten. You need a web 
 page for it to get it noticed in the future. Use dsource.org if you 
 don't have your own, or the D wiki, etc.


If the links to the newsgroup archive was working, then every posting
would be turned into a web page automagically... Maybe there is a way
to use URL rewriting in order not just kill all of those old D links ?
(I mean the ones with "http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnext?")

I don't think a web page is a bad idea, but Google finds lots of stuff.

--anders
Oct 31 2006
parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Anders F Björklund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 1) Make a web page for it. A newsgroup posting here in 
 digitalmars.D.announce is great for announcing the existence of the 
 project, but then it scrolls away and gets forgotten. You need a web 
 page for it to get it noticed in the future. Use dsource.org if you 
 don't have your own, or the D wiki, etc.


 
 If the links to the newsgroup archive was working, then every posting
 would be turned into a web page automagically... Maybe there is a way
 to use URL rewriting in order not just kill all of those old D links ?
 (I mean the ones with "http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnext?")
 
 I don't think a web page is a bad idea, but Google finds lots of stuff.


The D news archives already turn everything into a web page, and it does 
url translation. But a real web page is going to do a lot better, not 
just a discussion turned into a web page.
Oct 31 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 And, of course, I should follow my own advice and turn this posting into 
 a web page!


Just did: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/howto-promote.html
Oct 31 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent =?iso-8859-1?q?Knud_S=F8rensen?= <12tkvvb02 sneakemail.com> writes:
You forgot a important thing.

Remember to put links to other D websites on your D webpages 
this increase the D community's pagerank.
Oct 31 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
 and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
 each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel reinvention.
 
 I've learned a lot about trying to get the word out on the internet with 
 little to no marketing dollars, no marketing staff, no nothing. I 
 suspect that most of you are in the same boat <g>, so I thought I'd 
 share a bit about what I've learned.
 
 1) Make a web page for it. A newsgroup posting here in 
 digitalmars.D.announce is great for announcing the existence of the 
 project, but then it scrolls away and gets forgotten. You need a web 
 page for it to get it noticed in the future. Use dsource.org if you 
 don't have your own, or the D wiki, etc.
 
 2) Having your stuff findable by Google is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing you 
 can do. The overwhelming majority of traffic to the Digital Mars web 
 site is coming from google search results pages. If it isn't findable by 
 Google, it might as well not exist. I won't get much into google search 
 engine optimization here, as there are plenty of web sites on that 
 (findable via google, of course!), but there are a couple highlights I 
 want to hit.
 
 3) Think about what, if you were looking for your project, you'd type 
 into the google search box. Then, make sure those keywords are on your 
 project description web page.
 
 4) Include the phrase "D programming language" somewhere on every D web 
 page you do. Don't put it in a graphic, put it in text so google will 
 find it. This phrase helps build "brand" on the internet, and your D 
 page will show up in google searches on D. Just using "D" by itself 
 won't work (try it!).
 
 5) Ask me to put a link to your page on 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/dlinks.html. Send me the exact text to cut & paste 
 in. Try to get reciprocal links from other relevant D pages. This will 
 help people find it.
 
 6) Submit links to your project releases to www.betamarker.com. Submit 
 articles, tutorials, anything of interest to www.dzone.com, gamedev.net, 
 www.artima.com or even www.digg.com. Let us know so we can digg them! It 
 doesn't matter if the reference doesn't make it to the front page, it 
 will still help.
 
 7) Post on the newsgroup comp.programming to reach a more general audience.
 
 8) People coming across D source code on the internet may not recognize 
 it for what it is. I think it's probably a good idea to add the comment:
 
     // written in the D programming language
 
 at the top of every published D source code file. I'm going to start 
 doing that with Phobos source.
 
 9) Take a look at related Wikipedia articles for which a relevant 
 discussion about or link to your project might be appropriate.
 
 10) In doing the above, be sure you're not spamming. Any links you do 
 should be of genuine and relevant interest to the readers.
 
 11) Doing this isn't just good for D, it's good for your career. 
 Recruiters are going to google your name, and if they find all those 
 cool projects you've done, it can only help.
 
 And, of course, I should follow my own advice and turn this posting into 
 a web page!


Nice tips!

You don't seem to mention wikipedia on your web page, though.

Just thought of this too, submit an article to the D online journal at 
http://www.tdjonline.com/ , they need more articles :)

Can we can figure out a use for http://d-programming-language.org/ in 
the scheme of internet marketing as well? Maybe turn it into a community 
blog like slashdot where D programmers can register for an account, 
submit stories, and them comment on them?
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
clayasaurus wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
 and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
 each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel 
 reinvention.

 I've learned a lot about trying to get the word out on the internet 
 with little to no marketing dollars, no marketing staff, no nothing. I 
 suspect that most of you are in the same boat <g>, so I thought I'd 
 share a bit about what I've learned.

 1) Make a web page for it. A newsgroup posting here in 
 digitalmars.D.announce is great for announcing the existence of the 
 project, but then it scrolls away and gets forgotten. You need a web 
 page for it to get it noticed in the future. Use dsource.org if you 
 don't have your own, or the D wiki, etc.

 2) Having your stuff findable by Google is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing 
 you can do. The overwhelming majority of traffic to the Digital Mars 
 web site is coming from google search results pages. If it isn't 
 findable by Google, it might as well not exist. I won't get much into 
 google search engine optimization here, as there are plenty of web 
 sites on that (findable via google, of course!), but there are a 
 couple highlights I want to hit.

 3) Think about what, if you were looking for your project, you'd type 
 into the google search box. Then, make sure those keywords are on your 
 project description web page.

 4) Include the phrase "D programming language" somewhere on every D 
 web page you do. Don't put it in a graphic, put it in text so google 
 will find it. This phrase helps build "brand" on the internet, and 
 your D page will show up in google searches on D. Just using "D" by 
 itself won't work (try it!).

 5) Ask me to put a link to your page on 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/dlinks.html. Send me the exact text to cut & 
 paste in. Try to get reciprocal links from other relevant D pages. 
 This will help people find it.

 6) Submit links to your project releases to www.betamarker.com. Submit 
 articles, tutorials, anything of interest to www.dzone.com, 
 gamedev.net, www.artima.com or even www.digg.com. Let us know so we 
 can digg them! It doesn't matter if the reference doesn't make it to 
 the front page, it will still help.

 7) Post on the newsgroup comp.programming to reach a more general 
 audience.

 8) People coming across D source code on the internet may not 
 recognize it for what it is. I think it's probably a good idea to add 
 the comment:

     // written in the D programming language

 at the top of every published D source code file. I'm going to start 
 doing that with Phobos source.

 9) Take a look at related Wikipedia articles for which a relevant 
 discussion about or link to your project might be appropriate.

 10) In doing the above, be sure you're not spamming. Any links you do 
 should be of genuine and relevant interest to the readers.

 11) Doing this isn't just good for D, it's good for your career. 
 Recruiters are going to google your name, and if they find all those 
 cool projects you've done, it can only help.

 And, of course, I should follow my own advice and turn this posting 
 into a web page!


 
 Nice tips!
 
 You don't seem to mention wikipedia on your web page, though.
 
 Just thought of this too, submit an article to the D online journal at 
 http://www.tdjonline.com/ , they need more articles :)
 
 Can we can figure out a use for http://d-programming-language.org/ in 
 the scheme of internet marketing as well? Maybe turn it into a community 
 blog like slashdot where D programmers can register for an account, 
 submit stories, and them comment on them?


That would be nice.

Another thing I would improve (as a kind of marketing strategy) is the 
aesthetics of digitalmars.com. It's very useful but very very very ugly 
(sorry, just my honest opinion). I see it in almost every thing that has 
a lot of success. Having nice images, with all kind of colors and stuff 
sells to the sight. People get attracted to lights and mirrors every 
time. I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be done.

Kind regards,
--
Tom;
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 Another thing I would improve (as a kind of marketing strategy) is the 
 aesthetics of digitalmars.com. It's very useful but very very very ugly 
 (sorry, just my honest opinion). I see it in almost every thing that has 
 a lot of success. Having nice images, with all kind of colors and stuff 
 sells to the sight. People get attracted to lights and mirrors every 
 time. I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be 
 done.


Do you have a url of a programming site that looks good? (I mean, it's 
easier to talk about if given examples of "lights and mirrors" to compare.)
Oct 31 2006
parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Tom wrote:

 Another thing I would improve (as a kind of marketing strategy) is the
 aesthetics of digitalmars.com. It's very useful but very very very ugly
 (sorry, just my honest opinion). I see it in almost every thing that has
 a lot of success. Having nice images, with all kind of colors and stuff
 sells to the sight. People get attracted to lights and mirrors every
 time. I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be
 done.


 Do you have a url of a programming site that looks good? (I mean, it's
 easier to talk about if given examples of "lights and mirrors" to compare.)


Obviously I've exaggerated a little :) about all the "lights and mirrors"
stuff. I
wasn't literally talking of course, was just saying.

But well, Bill gave us a nice example of (IMO) a nice looking web page:

http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Do you have a url of a programming site that looks good? (I mean, it's
 easier to talk about if given examples of "lights and mirrors" to compare.)


 
 Obviously I've exaggerated a little :) about all the "lights and mirrors"
stuff. I
 wasn't literally talking of course, was just saying.
 
 But well, Bill gave us a nice example of (IMO) a nice looking web page:
 
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/


To be frank, I don't like that page, I think the graphic designer was 
more interested in making it look pretty than be usable. For example:

1) Blue text on a black background is a no-no, it's very difficult to read.

2) It's a fixed width layout. Let the user decide his browser window size.

3) I don't like the navigation on the right - that's the normal place 
for advertisements and my eye just wants to ignore it.

4) The fonts are too small (a problem that rears its ugly head when one 
gets a little older!)

5) The site jarringly switches to look like: http://www.rubygarden.org/faq/

6) The search box is faded out, I missed it the first couple times I 
looked for it.

I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!
Nov 01 2006
next sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/


 
 To be frank, I don't like that page, I think the graphic designer was 
 more interested in making it look pretty than be usable. For example:
 
 1) Blue text on a black background is a no-no, it's very difficult to read.
 
 2) It's a fixed width layout. Let the user decide his browser window size.


I kind of like the page, though I think it's a bit 'cute'.  However, I 
do agree with the above.


 3) I don't like the navigation on the right - that's the normal place 
 for advertisements and my eye just wants to ignore it.


I learned from a film student friend of mine that the eye naturally 
travels up and to the right across an image.  This is used a lot in 
character and object placement in film to make something or someone 
appear more or less imposing, larger or smaller, etc.  For web pages, I 
think it relates to what you feel is important on the page.  The eye 
will naturally start on the left side of the page so the most important 
items probably belong there, with less important ones to the right.  I 
think it's a matter of context, however, whether navigation items are 
more or less important than the page content.  For tree-oriented 
navigation (file browsers, class hierarchy documentation) I think it 
makes sense for navigation to be on the left, but for article-oriented 
navigation I think it makes sense for navigation to be on the right. 
The Ruby website seems article-oriented so the layout works for me, but 
I would expect it to change if I navigated to a reference manual or 
similar document.


 4) The fonts are too small (a problem that rears its ugly head when one 
 gets a little older!)


The font can be resized in the browser view options so this doesn't 
bother me.  Having two monitors side-by-side with different resolutions, 
I tend to change font size a lot from within the browser depending on 
which screen the browser window is displayed.


 5) The site jarringly switches to look like: http://www.rubygarden.org/faq/


To be fair, this is a completely different website.  But I do think the 
ideal solution would be for the main Ruby stylesheet to be public domain 
so related sites could use it and therefore present a consistent look. 
The same applies here.  With a public selection of logos, stylesheet, 
etc, all D sites that wanted to could appear similar, making 
cross-linking less jarring.  It also saves web-inept people like me from 
having to be creative about layout, since a template of sorts would 
already be available.  I think you said that the digitalmars stylesheet 
is already public?


Sean
Nov 01 2006
parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 I think you said that the digitalmars stylesheet
 is already public?


It's in the public domain. Use it as you will!
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Do you have a url of a programming site that looks good? (I mean, it's
 easier to talk about if given examples of "lights and mirrors" to compare.)


 Obviously I've exaggerated a little :) about all the "lights and mirrors"
stuff. I
 wasn't literally talking of course, was just saying.

 But well, Bill gave us a nice example of (IMO) a nice looking web page:

 http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/


 To be frank, I don't like that page, I think the graphic designer was
 more interested in making it look pretty than be usable. For example:
 1) Blue text on a black background is a no-no, it's very difficult to read.
 2) It's a fixed width layout. Let the user decide his browser window size.
 3) I don't like the navigation on the right - that's the normal place
 for advertisements and my eye just wants to ignore it.
 4) The fonts are too small (a problem that rears its ugly head when one
 gets a little older!)
 5) The site jarringly switches to look like: http://www.rubygarden.org/faq/
 6) The search box is faded out, I missed it the first couple times I
 looked for it.
 I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!


I agree but we don't need to copy all those defects, and yet we can imitate all
the good design choices. Luckily we are free to improve over the "mistakes" of
other people ;D
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!


 I agree but we don't need to copy all those defects, and yet we can imitate all
 the good design choices. Luckily we are free to improve over the "mistakes" of
 other people ;D


But the only thing I like is the ruby logo! I think it'd be wrong to 
imitate that!
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!


 I agree but we don't need to copy all those defects, and yet we can 
 imitate all
 the good design choices. Luckily we are free to improve over the 
 "mistakes" of
 other people ;D


 
 But the only thing I like is the ruby logo! I think it'd be wrong to 
 imitate that!


Yep, but I mean, from other well designed sites. Not necessarily from 
Ruby's one. What do you think about http://www.python.org/ ?
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!


 I agree but we don't need to copy all those defects, and yet we can 
 imitate all
 the good design choices. Luckily we are free to improve over the 
 "mistakes" of
 other people ;D


 But the only thing I like is the ruby logo! I think it'd be wrong to 
 imitate that!


 
 Yep, but I mean, from other well designed sites. Not necessarily from 
 Ruby's one. What do you think about http://www.python.org/ ?


That one is better but also is inconsistent:

http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html

There's the "front page" that isn't the home page:


 http://wiki.python.org/moin/FrontPage


I find the overall navigational organization of it to be fairly confusing.
Nov 01 2006
parent Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 I do like the ruby logo, though. Nice!


 I agree but we don't need to copy all those defects, and yet we can 
 imitate all
 the good design choices. Luckily we are free to improve over the 
 "mistakes" of
 other people ;D


 But the only thing I like is the ruby logo! I think it'd be wrong to 
 imitate that!


 Yep, but I mean, from other well designed sites. Not necessarily from 
 Ruby's one. What do you think about http://www.python.org/ ?


 
 That one is better but also is inconsistent:
 
 http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html
 
 There's the "front page" that isn't the home page:
 

 http://wiki.python.org/moin/FrontPage


 
 I find the overall navigational organization of it to be fairly confusing.


I totally agree with you, but for now I'll focus only on the look and 
feel. I think that this is currently the weaker point of digitalmars site.

I'll take some time from now on, thanks for your trust.

Tom;
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be 
 done.


Actually, in the last go-round on all this, the website is now driven by 
one style sheet and one big Ddoc template. So, within limits, it 
shouldn't be too hard to do major global changes.
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be done.


 
 Actually, in the last go-round on all this, the website is now driven by 
 one style sheet and one big Ddoc template. So, within limits, it 
 shouldn't be too hard to do major global changes.


Here's a slightly touched up version of the happy D guy on 
overview.html.  Just a little bit-o-gradient to replace the 100% 
saturated red color.  I tried fixing the lack of antialiasing in the 
outline but couldn't find any combo of photoshop filters that actually 
made an improvement.

--bb
Oct 31 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 Here's a slightly touched up version of the happy D guy on 
 overview.html.  Just a little bit-o-gradient to replace the 100% 
 saturated red color.  I tried fixing the lack of antialiasing in the 
 outline but couldn't find any combo of photoshop filters that actually 
 made an improvement.


It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 Here's a slightly touched up version of the happy D guy on 
 overview.html.  Just a little bit-o-gradient to replace the 100% 
 saturated red color.  I tried fixing the lack of antialiasing in the 
 outline but couldn't find any combo of photoshop filters that actually 
 made an improvement.


 
 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. 


You can certainly convert it back to gif to make it smaller again. 
Although it only went down by 500Bytes when I tried.


 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


Yeh, I started doing that, but it was taking too long -- lunch break 
ended. :-)

--bb
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


There is an anti-aliased D guy over at the Wiki4D, under "Logo":

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Logo

--anders
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Anders F Björklund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


 
 There is an anti-aliased D guy over at the Wiki4D, under "Logo":
 
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Logo


Cool!
Nov 01 2006
parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Anders F Björklund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


 There is an anti-aliased D guy over at the Wiki4D, under "Logo":

 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Logo


 
 Cool!


But he's also filled with #FF0000 red. :-(

And, to me, his lines are a little too perfect.  The wobblyness of the 
lines on the original gave it a kind of a personal charm.

--bb
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Oskar Linde <oskar.lindeREM OVEgmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 Here's a slightly touched up version of the happy D guy on 
 overview.html.  Just a little bit-o-gradient to replace the 100% 
 saturated red color.  I tried fixing the lack of antialiasing in the 
 outline but couldn't find any combo of photoshop filters that actually 
 made an improvement.


 
 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


I just processed it though the Inkscape[1] auto tracer and did some 
manual cleanups. Some details were lost, but I didn't have time to spend 
more than 10 minutes on this. zlib-compressed the svg turned out to be 
less than 6 kb which is approximately 2x the original in size.

The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in 
their web browsers, right? ;)

[1] http://www.inkscape.org
Nov 01 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in 
 their web browsers, right? ;)


Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?
Nov 01 2006
next sibling parent reply Oskar Linde <oskar.lindeREM OVEgmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in 
 their web browsers, right? ;)


 
 Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?


Attached: 18-color quantized PNG. 4.8 kB. The transparency had to be 
dropped as semi-transparency isn't supported with a quantized palette. I 
tried JPEG, but the result was horrible.

/Oskar
Nov 01 2006
parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Oskar Linde wrote:

 Attached: 18-color quantized PNG. 4.8 kB.


Much better, thanks.
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply "Tiberiu Gal" <galtiberiu gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:28:54 +0200, Walter Bright  
<newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in  
 their web browsers, right? ;)


 Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?


Please don't use the D man as an official logo,
no offese, but it's childish
how do you promote D?! ... as a succesor of c/c++, is this cartoon a symbol
of "power", a symbol of "new" ...?! is it?
I'll make 100 logo sketches to chose from, just plase don't use the D man.

thank you

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 01 2006
next sibling parent Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Tiberiu Gal (galtiberiu gmail.com)'s article

 On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:28:54 +0200, Walter Bright
 <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in
 their web browsers, right? ;)


 Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?


 Please don't use the D man as an official logo,
 no offese, but it's childish
 how do you promote D?! ... as a succesor of c/c++, is this cartoon a symbol
 of "power", a symbol of "new" ...?! is it?
 I'll make 100 logo sketches to chose from, just plase don't use the D man.
 thank you


I agree :), I don't say we shall kill D man (after all this time, I think I do
already feel some affection for him), but there could be a more
professional-looking main logo.

Regards,
--
Tom;
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Ary Manzana <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
Tiberiu Gal escribió:

 On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:28:54 +0200, Walter Bright 
 <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:
 

 Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in 
 their web browsers, right? ;)


 Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?


 
 Please don't use the D man as an official logo


I like the D man. :-)

The first time I saw it, I thought: it's a poweful but humble language.

Just my opinion...
Nov 01 2006
parent "Tiberiu Gal" <galtiberiu gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:09:02 +0200, Ary Manzana <ary esperanto.org.ar>  
wrote:


 Tiberiu Gal escribió:

 On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:28:54 +0200, Walter Bright  
 <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Oskar Linde wrote:

 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in  
 their web browsers, right? ;)


 Nope. The 16K is a little big, can you try it as a jpg?


  Please don't use the D man as an official logo


 I like the D man. :-)

 The first time I saw it, I thought: it's a poweful but humble language.

 Just my opinion...


:)

D man is not powerfull nor humble, it's skiny and sad, my opinion
look at his eyes, he is looking down; his hands are in the air just like
he surrenders ...


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
Oskar Linde wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Bill Baxter wrote:


 Here's a slightly touched up version of the happy D guy on 
 overview.html.  Just a little bit-o-gradient to replace the 100% 
 saturated red color.  I tried fixing the lack of antialiasing in the 
 outline but couldn't find any combo of photoshop filters that 
 actually made an improvement.



 It does look a bit better, but it's 3x larger than the .gif file. I 
 suppose there's no hope for that, though. The only way to fix the 
 antialiasing problem is just to redraw it by tracing it.


 
 
 I just processed it though the Inkscape[1] auto tracer and did some 
 manual cleanups. Some details were lost, but I didn't have time to spend 
 more than 10 minutes on this. zlib-compressed the svg turned out to be 
 less than 6 kb which is approximately 2x the original in size.
 
 The png should be unnecessary as everyone nowadays has svg support in 
 their web browsers, right? ;)
 
 [1] http://www.inkscape.org
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



Great.  Definitely an improvement.

Now let's have the discussion we should have been having :-) -- why is 
there a poorly drawn cartoon 'D' apparently cheering for himself on the 
overview page?  It makes no sense.  At best it looks like he's trying to 
say "I'm D and I think I'm awesome" like some hot shot 4 year old on a 
playground full of 3 year olds.

It's cute, but it would make much more sense on the "How To Promote D" 
page or a "D Success Stories" page than on the public introduction, 
which will be read by a bunch of people who are probably skeptical about 
D to begin with.

--bb
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:


 Now let's have the discussion we should have been having :-) -- why is 
 there a poorly drawn cartoon 'D' apparently cheering for himself on the 
 overview page?  It makes no sense.  At best it looks like he's trying to 
 say "I'm D and I think I'm awesome" like some hot shot 4 year old on a 
 playground full of 3 year olds.
 
 It's cute, but it would make much more sense on the "How To Promote D" 
 page or a "D Success Stories" page than on the public introduction, 
 which will be read by a bunch of people who are probably skeptical about 
 D to begin with.


Ok, but a lot of people have done alternative images but none of them 
have had that catchy feeling of 'rightness' to them.

A story: back when the US Air Force was splitting itself off to be 
independent from the US Army, they had a contest to find the AF theme 
song. They duly had the contest, and duly picked and announced a winner. 
Then, they ran across the song that starts "up we go, into the wild blue 
yonder".

That was instantly it. The new song was just so *right* that the 
previous winner (now long forgotten) was ditched, the contest 
repudiated, and the new song anointed. Nobody objected.
Nov 01 2006
parent Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Ok, but a lot of people have done alternative images but none of them 
 have had that catchy feeling of 'rightness' to them.
 
 A story: back when the US Air Force was splitting itself off to be 
 independent from the US Army, they had a contest to find the AF theme 
 song. They duly had the contest, and duly picked and announced a winner. 
 Then, they ran across the song that starts "up we go, into the wild blue 
 yonder".
 
 That was instantly it. The new song was just so *right* that the 
 previous winner (now long forgotten) was ditched, the contest 
 repudiated, and the new song anointed. Nobody objected.


Very amusing story!  The only moral I can seem to get out of it though 
is that the D man shouldn't be anointed as the "winner" before Mr. "so 
right" shows up.

Is an image really even required on the intro page?

He looks to me like he's either cheering someone on or just won a race. 
So I do think he's perfect for any page about how to promote D, or about 
D success stories.

In a picture for the introduction to D, if Mr. D is to be there, he 
should be doing something like bowing a hearty welcome, with top-hat 
clutched to his chest and a black cane in the other hand, outstretched 
to the side.  Something that says "Greetings, we humbly welcome you to 
our abode."  Rather than "woo woo we're so awesome!"

--bb
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Tom wrote:

 I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be
 done.


 Actually, in the last go-round on all this, the website is now driven by
 one style sheet and one big Ddoc template. So, within limits, it
 shouldn't be too hard to do major global changes.


I know about the stylesheet thing, I've been following D newsgroups now for
quite
some time :). You could improve a lot on the site as it is right now. The change
could be done gradually.

If you allow me, I would like to help improving the "look and feel" of
digitalmars
(changing the stylesheet, template, submitting some images, etc.). Give me some
time (which I have so little lately), and I'll post some real alternatives for
you
(and the community) to throw your opinions.

I'm genuinely interested in the "world domination" of the D programming language
=P, and I'm convinced that marketing is one of the most important things every
product need to be known. If the product is good (and in this case, I think it's
excellent), we can't fail.

Kind regards,
--
Tom;
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 If you allow me, I would like to help improving the "look and feel" of
digitalmars
 (changing the stylesheet, template, submitting some images, etc.). Give me some
 time (which I have so little lately), and I'll post some real alternatives for
you
 (and the community) to throw your opinions.


Send me your email address, and I'll send you the template and the style 
sheet.
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Walter Bright (newshound digitalmars.com)'s article

 Tom wrote:

 If you allow me, I would like to help improving the "look and feel" of
digitalmars
 (changing the stylesheet, template, submitting some images, etc.). Give me some
 time (which I have so little lately), and I'll post some real alternatives for
you
 (and the community) to throw your opinions.


 Send me your email address, and I'll send you the template and the style
 sheet.


My email is the result of evaluating:

my_email_at("gmail.com");

with

char[] my_email_at(char[] domain) {
	char[] username = "siostar";
	return username[4..$] ~ username[2..4] ~
		username[0..2] ~ " " ~ domain;
}


We all hate spam so... I know, this is not funny. :D

--
Tom;
Nov 01 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Tom wrote:

 char[] my_email_at(char[] domain) {
 	char[] username = "siostar";
 	return username[4..$] ~ username[2..4] ~
 		username[0..2] ~ " " ~ domain;
 }
 
 
 We all hate spam so... I know, this is not funny. :D


You wascally wabbit, taking advantage of spammers not knowing D!
Nov 01 2006
parent Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Tom wrote:

 char[] my_email_at(char[] domain) {
     char[] username = "siostar";
     return username[4..$] ~ username[2..4] ~
         username[0..2] ~ " " ~ domain;
 }


 We all hate spam so... I know, this is not funny. :D


 
 You wascally wabbit, taking advantage of spammers not knowing D!


I get about 40 spam messages per day .. I think they all found me thru 
this NG!!
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Tom wrote:


 Another thing I would improve (as a kind of marketing strategy) is the 
 aesthetics of digitalmars.com. It's very useful but very very very ugly 
 (sorry, just my honest opinion). I see it in almost every thing that has 
 a lot of success. 


Or maybe its that projects that have lots of success decide it's worth 
the effort to improve their websites.  I don't think you can say there's 
any causal relationship between the website and the success of the 
programming language.  Python's old site was pretty ugly and amateurish 
for a good long time -- until well after Python was a success.

Having nice images, with all kind of colors and stuff

 sells to the sight. 


Good web design != all kinds of colors and stuff :-)

People get attracted to lights and mirrors every

 time. I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be 
 done.


I think the (newly redone) Python site is very professional looking:
www.python.org

Ruby's site looks good too:
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/

PHP is ok, but a little cluttered looking:
http://www.php.net/

Nemerle is a wiki, but it looks pretty nice:
http://nemerle.org/Main_Page

I think one thing is that (255,0,0) red just isn't a good color for a 
website, period.  It's seen in most of the images on the D site, eg:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/overview.html.
It's hard on the eyes.  Low saturation colors are nicer to look at.

That said I like the curent D site.  A *touch* of color (preferably not 
more red) wouldn't hurt in softening the predominantly gray look.  But 
overall I think it looks fairly professional, except for MS-Paint style 
images here and there.

--bb
Oct 31 2006
next sibling parent Tom <tom nospam.com> writes:
== Quote from Bill Baxter (dnewsgroup billbaxter.com)'s article

 Tom wrote:

 Another thing I would improve (as a kind of marketing strategy) is the
 aesthetics of digitalmars.com. It's very useful but very very very ugly
 (sorry, just my honest opinion). I see it in almost every thing that has
 a lot of success.


 Or maybe its that projects that have lots of success decide it's worth
 the effort to improve their websites.  I don't think you can say there's
 any causal relationship between the website and the success of the
 programming language.  Python's old site was pretty ugly and amateurish
 for a good long time -- until well after Python was a success.


I can't say that that's *always* the case, but I can assure you that it helps _a
lot_. I mean, don't you restrict just to programming languages, look around and
you'll see companies spending a lot of cash in nice publicity, beautiful web
pages, and not in vain! Is a fact that a good looking webpage (in this case) is
better for marketing that a non-good-looking one, don't you think?.


 Having nice images, with all kind of colors and stuff

 sells to the sight.


 Good web design != all kinds of colors and stuff :-)


Yeah right, please don't take it so literally :-)


 People get attracted to lights and mirrors every

 time. I know that this isn't a trivial task, but it could certainly be
 done.


 I think the (newly redone) Python site is very professional looking:
 www.python.org
 Ruby's site looks good too:
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
 PHP is ok, but a little cluttered looking:
 http://www.php.net/
 Nemerle is a wiki, but it looks pretty nice:
 http://nemerle.org/Main_Page


There you have some that are good examples of nice designs.


 [snip]
 That said I like the curent D site.


I couldn't disagree more, but what can we do? It's just a matter of taste after
all.

Regards,
--
Tom;
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply Lutger <lutger.blijdestijn gmail.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 I think the (newly redone) Python site is very professional looking:
 www.python.org
 
 Ruby's site looks good too:
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
 
 PHP is ok, but a little cluttered looking:
 http://www.php.net/
 
 Nemerle is a wiki, but it looks pretty nice:
 http://nemerle.org/Main_Page


All those sites look nice, but the php is way too cluttered indeed and 
Ruby's, while nice looking, is not 'free-flowing'. This is like the zen 
of css, all very nice and such but not even making use of this basic 
html capability. imho, fixing your site to 800x600 is not the way to go.


 That said I like the curent D site.  A *touch* of color (preferably not 
 more red) wouldn't hurt in softening the predominantly gray look.  But 
 overall I think it looks fairly professional, except for MS-Paint style 
 images here and there.
 
 --bb


I agree. A good looking site should be coupled with good and easy to 
find content. The current D site has a lot of easy to find content, 
which is most important. Note how much info there is on every page 
without looking all cluttered and noisy like the php site, those make me 
want to leave ASAP.
Nov 01 2006
parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Lutger wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 That said I like the curent D site.  A *touch* of color (preferably 
 not more red) wouldn't hurt in softening the predominantly gray look.  
 But overall I think it looks fairly professional, except for MS-Paint 
 style images here and there.

 --bb


 
 I agree. A good looking site should be coupled with good and easy to 
 find content. The current D site has a lot of easy to find content, 
 which is most important. Note how much info there is on every page 
 without looking all cluttered and noisy like the php site, those make me 
 want to leave ASAP.


I agree it could look better, but without sacrificing readability and 
usability. For example, all the content is accessible by one or two clicks.
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
clayasaurus wrote:


 Can we can figure out a use for http://d-programming-language.org/ in 
 the scheme of internet marketing as well? Maybe turn it into a community 
 blog like slashdot where D programmers can register for an account, 
 submit stories, and them comment on them?


It would be good if there was such a page for the language in general,
that would have marketing for both Digital Mars/DMD as well as GNU/GDC ?

The current selection of links for GDC just doesn't do it justice...
(http://dgcc.sourceforge.net and the old http://opend.org, and so on)

--anders
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent "Tiberiu Gal" <galtiberiu gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:55:39 +0200, Walter Bright  
<newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:

I have another tip, expecialy for derelict and ddbi. Submit your bindings  
on the libraries website.

http://www.libsdl.org/languages.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opengl#Bindings
http://sqlite.org/contrib
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQLite#Language_bindings
http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MySQL#Programming_languages

and many others



-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling parent reply David Medlock <noone nowhere.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
 and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
 each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel reinvention.


<snip>

Although not a project per-se I have a pool physics demo I wanted to 
post up(I wrote it about 18 months ago and just found it again).

Perhaps there is some free ftp room on digitalmars.com for such things?

-DavidM
Nov 01 2006
next sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
David Medlock wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
 and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
 each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel 
 reinvention.


 <snip>
 
 Although not a project per-se I have a pool physics demo I wanted to 
 post up(I wrote it about 18 months ago and just found it again).
 
 Perhaps there is some free ftp room on digitalmars.com for such things?
 
 -DavidM


Look at www.dsource.com -- probably the best place for housing community 
developed projects.

Later,
Brad
Nov 01 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
David Medlock wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented over 
 and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can stand on 
 each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less wheel 
 reinvention.


 <snip>
 
 Although not a project per-se I have a pool physics demo I wanted to 
 post up(I wrote it about 18 months ago and just found it again).
 
 Perhaps there is some free ftp room on digitalmars.com for such things?


I think dsource.org is the right place for it.
Nov 01 2006
parent reply David Medlock <noone nowhere.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 David Medlock wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:


 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented 
 over and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can 
 stand on each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less 
 wheel reinvention.


 <snip>

 Although not a project per-se I have a pool physics demo I wanted to 
 post up(I wrote it about 18 months ago and just found it again).

 Perhaps there is some free ftp room on digitalmars.com for such things?


 
 
 I think dsource.org is the right place for it.


Thats fine except I don't want to make it a full project.

If someone else wanted to make it into a full fledged pool game so be 
it, but I don't have a keen interest in polishing it at the moment.

We should have a couple of demo apps perhaps that could be downloaded 
when people download D.  Graphics/games would be ideal as they are 
appeal to just about all programmers.

-DavidM
Nov 03 2006
parent Justin Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
== Quote from David Medlock (noone nowhere.com)'s article

 I think dsource.org is the right place for it.


 Thats fine except I don't want to make it a full project.


Do you think it would work as a new page in the tutorial wiki?
www.dsource.org/projects/tutorials/wiki

Or maybe you could upload it to the bindings project?

I created the d_lab Yahoo! group way back when because there was a growing need
for a place to upload random stuff to share with the D community. Then dsource
came along, and it seemed to do a better job at filling that role. Maybe we
should
start using d_lab again? Or maybe a Google group would be better? (The main
problem with Yahoo! groups is that people have to join and log in to download
items from the Files section.)


 If someone else wanted to make it into a full fledged pool game so
 be it, but I don't have a keen interest in polishing it at the
 moment. We should have a couple of demo apps perhaps that could be
 downloaded when people download D.  Graphics/games would be ideal as
 they are appeal to just about all programmers.
 -DavidM


Yeah. Everybody likes games.
Nov 03 2006
prev sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 David Medlock wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 A lot of you are writing useful projects in D, useful code snippets, 
 insightful commentary, etc. Much of this stuff gets reimplemented 
 over and over because few are aware of the existence of it. We can 
 stand on each others shoulders a bit more if we do a little less 
 wheel reinvention.


 <snip>

 Although not a project per-se I have a pool physics demo I wanted to 
 post up(I wrote it about 18 months ago and just found it again).

 Perhaps there is some free ftp room on digitalmars.com for such things?

 -DavidM


 
 Look at www.dsource.com -- probably the best place for housing community 
 developed projects.
 
 Later,
 Brad


Er.. um.. make that www.dsource.org.

Whoops,
Brad
Nov 01 2006