digitalmars.D.announce - DConf 2013 Day 2 Talk 4: Web Development in D by Vladimir Panteleev
- Andrei Alexandrescu (9/9) Jun 03 2013 On reddit:
- Mr. Anonymous (3/12) Jun 03 2013 http://dconf.org/2013/talks/panteleev.pdf
- bearophile (5/6) Jun 03 2013 On Reddit they seem to suggest the idea of good stack traces for
- Diggory (14/23) Jun 03 2013 Great talk! Would love to see the improvements to phobos
- Vladimir Panteleev (10/24) Jun 03 2013 Thanks!
- Vladimir Panteleev (4/5) Jun 03 2013 [snip]
- Diggory (7/32) Jun 03 2013 Yes, although it would theoretically be possible to swap the
- Dmitry Olshansky (24/55) Jun 03 2013 Copying to disk is certainly strange and rising the cost of context
- Adam D. Ruppe (48/48) Jun 03 2013 vibe.d really puts cgi.d to shame when it comes to scalability.
- Adam D. Ruppe (8/10) Jun 03 2013 I forgot to finish this thought! But you read that right, at puny
- Nick Sabalausky (1/1) Jun 03 2013 Torrents and links: http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/
- Nick Sabalausky (38/38) Jun 03 2013 Referring to the last question: Hibernate-D is *not* based on Vibe.d.
- Nick Sabalausky (30/75) Jun 03 2013 Oh wait, I totally forgot:
- Graham Fawcett (5/69) Jun 03 2013 Regarding PostgreSQL, keep in mind that it has an async API,
On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1fkr5s/dconf_2013_day_2_talk_4_web_development_in_d_by/ On hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5812723 On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/650767074936977 On twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/341527862815367168 Andrei
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 12:14:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1fkr5s/dconf_2013_day_2_talk_4_web_development_in_d_by/ On hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5812723 On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/650767074936977 On twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/341527862815367168 Andreihttp://dconf.org/2013/talks/panteleev.pdf 404 error
Jun 03 2013
Andrei Alexandrescu:http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1fkr5s/dconf_2013_day_2_talk_4_web_development_in_d_by/On Reddit they seem to suggest the idea of good stack traces for fibers... Bye, bearophile
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 12:14:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1fkr5s/dconf_2013_day_2_talk_4_web_development_in_d_by/ On hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5812723 On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/650767074936977 On twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/341527862815367168 AndreiGreat talk! Would love to see the improvements to phobos suggested. An idea for the virtual address space problem on 32-bit: - Assuming each stack has a marker page at the end to prevent overflow, by simply exchanging the stack memory with a separate block of memory you can reduce the number of marker pages saving up to one page per fiber - Could use some fast compression method to save a not recently used stack in memory - As a last resort can save stack to a file and read it in again when it is required. Since events are queued the event loop can easily peek ahead in the queue and start loading in a stack early so that it is ready by the time that event gets to the front.
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 18:07:57 UTC, Diggory wrote:Great talk! Would love to see the improvements to phobos suggested. An idea for the virtual address space problem on 32-bit: - Assuming each stack has a marker page at the end to prevent overflow, by simply exchanging the stack memory with a separate block of memory you can reduce the number of marker pages saving up to one page per fiber - Could use some fast compression method to save a not recently used stack in memory - As a last resort can save stack to a file and read it in again when it is required. Since events are queued the event loop can easily peek ahead in the queue and start loading in a stack early so that it is ready by the time that event gets to the front.Thanks! One of the main advantages of fibers over threads is the low overhead for switching - basically you save registers and change ESP. By comparison, switching to another thread requires an OS kernel system call. Copying entire stacks might negate this performance benefit. It's worth noting that it looks like the average stack size will grow for D programs in the future, as the push is made to minimize heap allocations throughout Phobos and use the stack more.
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 18:51:45 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:[snip] Another problem is passing objects on the stack across fibers. This might even be implicit (e.g. due to delegates).An idea for the virtual address space problem on 32-bit:
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 18:51:45 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 18:07:57 UTC, Diggory wrote:Yes, although it would theoretically be possible to swap the stack by swapping the mappings rather than the memory itself, although I doubt many OSes would support that kind of functionality... I guess it's not too much to ask to use a 64-bit OS for when 1000s of connections need to be handled!Great talk! Would love to see the improvements to phobos suggested. An idea for the virtual address space problem on 32-bit: - Assuming each stack has a marker page at the end to prevent overflow, by simply exchanging the stack memory with a separate block of memory you can reduce the number of marker pages saving up to one page per fiber - Could use some fast compression method to save a not recently used stack in memory - As a last resort can save stack to a file and read it in again when it is required. Since events are queued the event loop can easily peek ahead in the queue and start loading in a stack early so that it is ready by the time that event gets to the front.Thanks! One of the main advantages of fibers over threads is the low overhead for switching - basically you save registers and change ESP. By comparison, switching to another thread requires an OS kernel system call. Copying entire stacks might negate this performance benefit. It's worth noting that it looks like the average stack size will grow for D programs in the future, as the push is made to minimize heap allocations throughout Phobos and use the stack more.
Jun 03 2013
03-Jun-2013 22:07, Diggory пишет:On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 12:14:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Indeed.On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1fkr5s/dconf_2013_day_2_talk_4_web_development_in_d_by/ On hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5812723 On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/650767074936977 On twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/341527862815367168 AndreiGreat talk! Would love to see the improvements to phobos suggested.An idea for the virtual address space problem on 32-bit: - Assuming each stack has a marker page at the end to prevent overflow, by simply exchanging the stack memory with a separate block of memory you can reduce the number of marker pages saving up to one page per fiber - Could use some fast compression method to save a not recently used stack in memory - As a last resort can save stack to a file and read it in again when it is required. Since events are queued the event loop can easily peek ahead in the queue and start loading in a stack early so that it is ready by the time that event gets to the front.Copying to disk is certainly strange and rising the cost of context switch by on-the-fly compression is even more so. So is copying memory. Since we know there is plenty RAM but limited address space we can go for MM file and have some say 512M of it mapped at any given time (to have multiple smaller windows). Think of memory window as a slot for fiber - i.e. any fiber is mapped to one of X fixed addresses. Then the only requirement that when it wakes up it's mapped to the same address it was born with. It's sort of hash-table where fixed addresses are slots (collision chains) and items are fiber context that got mapped there. The amount of pages actually used would be fairly low and thus it may never have to pull them off the disk. In fact the moment it starts paging it turns into your idea of writing context to disk. Now the question is relative latency of MapViewOfFile in this setting. It's definitely something to measure if it's fast enough we are done here basically. If not (and I guess not, at least it's a sys call) it makes sense to manage placement of Fibers with some kind of good strategy. Ideally ones that wait on the same resource (say updated index.html to read off disk) should wake up together and thus they better be in the same window (so you can map a pack of them at once). -- Dmitry Olshansky
Jun 03 2013
vibe.d really puts cgi.d to shame when it comes to scalability. With 100 concurrent connections, cgi.d (especially in embedded_http and fastcgi modes, scgi and cgi are a little behind) can hold its own. Not great, I got 5000 requests per too bad. In the question section though he started to talk about event loops. I've been thinking about that too. It isn't tied into cgi.d yet, but I've written a linux loop built on epoll: https://github.com/adamdruppe/misc-stuff-including-D-programming-language-web-stuff/blob/master/eventloop.d It uses a pipe back to itself for the injection of arbitrary events. Works something like this: // this helps listening on file descriptors FileEventDispatcher dispatcher; // args are fd, on read ready, on write ready, on error dispatcher.addFile(0, (int fd) { ubyte[100] buffer; auto got = unix.read(fd, buffer.ptr, buffer.length); if(got == -1) throw new Exception("wtf"); if(got == 0) exit; else writeln(fd, " sent ", cast(string) buffer[0 .. got]); }, null, null); // you can also listen to events identified by type addListener(delegate void(int a) { writeln("got ", a); }); addListener(delegate void(File a) { writeln("got ", a); }); send(20); // calls the listener above send(stdin); // works with fancier types too loop(); // enters the loop } I really like the idea of dispatching things based on type, it is so convenient and lets you plug anything in. The FileEventDispatcher is different because all file descriptors are the same type, and we might want to differentiate it based on descriptor number. But you could also do addListener(FdReady) or something like that, i havent used this for a while. Anyway my goal here is to prove that we can have one generic event loop that all libraries can use. My implementation probably isn't phobos bound, I'm settling for "works for me" and "proves it can work" but maybe the experience or some code will help when it is time to do a standard one. I've plugged in my terminal.d to it (optionally, use -version=with_eventloop)) but that's it so far. Eventually I'll probably put simpledisplay and cgi.d in there as well and really see how it is coming together. If all goes well, we can have one program, one event loop, and all those various inputs handled.
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 19:27:02 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:vibe.d really puts cgi.d to shame when it comes to scalability. With 100 concurrent connections [...]I forgot to finish this thought! But you read that right, at puny 100 concurrent connections it holds its own, but if you go up to 1000 or 5000 like the vibe.d benchmarks, my code starts dropping connections fast. My view has always been "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it" though. The sites I work on do ok, but they don't have that kind of traffic!
Jun 03 2013
Torrents and links: http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/
Jun 03 2013
Referring to the last question: Hibernate-D is *not* based on Vibe.d. But I have already been looking into the idea of using Hibernate-D and Vibe.d together. In fact, my recent commits to mysql-native adding support for Phobos sockets was a big part of that. The main issue is that Vibe.d programs should be using Vibe.d sockets instead of ordinary sockets (I don't know what would happen if you don't use Vibe.d sockets. My guess is it just wouldn't happen asynchronously, but Sonke could answer that better). But Hibernate-D aims to be usable even without Vibe.d, so it uses Phobos sockets for MySQL (via a modified fork of an older mysql-native), and for PostgreSQL and SQLite it just uses the C libs. I've already converted mysql-native to support both Vibe.d and Phobos sockets, and I've already created a branch of Hibernate-D that makes Hibernate-D use the new official mysql-native and therefore automatically switch to Vibe.d sockets whenever Vibe.d is being used (detected by -version=Have_vibe_d, which is automatically added by DUB is you're using both Vibe.d and DUB). But G^DF*^ CKD*#MMIT I *just now* noticed that commit (and the pull request I could have sworn I made) seems to have completely disappeared without a trace...Shit, I gotta figure out what happened and where the hell it went... Ugh, anyway, I've been digging through Hibernate-D's source the last couple days checking out what else might be needed. As long as I get my magical disappearing commit resurrected, it *looks* to me like the only other thing that might be needed is to bypass Hibernate-D's built-in connection pool. Even that might still work as-is (I haven't tried), but it's not really necessary for Vibe.d users since Vibe.d has its own fiber-safe connection pool system. But it's pretty easy to bypass Hibernate-D's connection pool in favor of Vibe.D's connection pool in user-code without even patching Hibernate-D. AFAICT so far, it looks like everything else in Hibernate-D should work fine with Vibe.d. tl;dr: Hibernate-D does not use Vibe.d, but I have personal interest in using them together and I've been checking into it. Not sure what can be done about PostgreSQL and SQLite (I *think* they'll work but just not asynchronously - not sure what else can/should be done, I'd have to ask Sonke). But for MySQL, all you *should* need is a patch or two that I've been working on.
Jun 03 2013
On Mon, 3 Jun 2013 18:11:37 -0400 Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:Referring to the last question: Hibernate-D is *not* based on Vibe.d. But I have already been looking into the idea of using Hibernate-D and Vibe.d together. In fact, my recent commits to mysql-native adding support for Phobos sockets was a big part of that. The main issue is that Vibe.d programs should be using Vibe.d sockets instead of ordinary sockets (I don't know what would happen if you don't use Vibe.d sockets. My guess is it just wouldn't happen asynchronously, but Sonke could answer that better). But Hibernate-D aims to be usable even without Vibe.d, so it uses Phobos sockets for MySQL (via a modified fork of an older mysql-native), and for PostgreSQL and SQLite it just uses the C libs. I've already converted mysql-native to support both Vibe.d and Phobos sockets, and I've already created a branch of Hibernate-D that makes Hibernate-D use the new official mysql-native and therefore automatically switch to Vibe.d sockets whenever Vibe.d is being used (detected by -version=Have_vibe_d, which is automatically added by DUB is you're using both Vibe.d and DUB). But G^DF*^ CKD*#MMIT I *just now* noticed that commit (and the pull request I could have sworn I made) seems to have completely disappeared without a trace...Shit, I gotta figure out what happened and where the hell it went... Ugh, anyway, I've been digging through Hibernate-D's source the last couple days checking out what else might be needed. As long as I get my magical disappearing commit resurrected, it *looks* to me like the only other thing that might be needed is to bypass Hibernate-D's built-in connection pool. Even that might still work as-is (I haven't tried), but it's not really necessary for Vibe.d users since Vibe.d has its own fiber-safe connection pool system. But it's pretty easy to bypass Hibernate-D's connection pool in favor of Vibe.D's connection pool in user-code without even patching Hibernate-D. AFAICT so far, it looks like everything else in Hibernate-D should work fine with Vibe.d. tl;dr: Hibernate-D does not use Vibe.d, but I have personal interest in using them together and I've been checking into it. Not sure what can be done about PostgreSQL and SQLite (I *think* they'll work but just not asynchronously - not sure what else can/should be done, I'd have to ask Sonke). But for MySQL, all you *should* need is a patch or two that I've been working on.Oh wait, I totally forgot: DDBC was moved out of HibernateD into a separate project, and *that's* where the "missing" commit was. I was looking for it in the wrong project. Anyway, here are my branches: https://github.com/Abscissa/hibernated/commits/misc https://github.com/Abscissa/ddbc/commits/misc And here's the DDBC pull request to make DDBC (the low-level DB abstraction lib used by Hibernate-D) use the official "Vibe.d- and Phobos-compatible" mysql-native: https://github.com/buggins/ddbc/pull/1 So all you *should* need (for MySQL anyway) is that pull request (or my full "misc" branches above), and then bypass Hibernate-D's connection pool in favor of Vibe.d's by changing this part of your code from: SessionFactory factory = new SessionFactoryImpl(mySchema, myDialect, myDataSource); to something like: class MyDataSource : DataSource { static mysql.db.MysqlDB vibePool; override Connection getConnection() { if(!vibePool) vibePool = new mysql.db.MysqlDB(/+ connection info +/); return vibePool.lockConnection(); } } SessionFactory factory = new SessionFactoryImpl(mySchema, myDialect, new MyDataSource());
Jun 03 2013
On Monday, 3 June 2013 at 22:11:39 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Referring to the last question: Hibernate-D is *not* based on Vibe.d. But I have already been looking into the idea of using Hibernate-D and Vibe.d together. In fact, my recent commits to mysql-native adding support for Phobos sockets was a big part of that. The main issue is that Vibe.d programs should be using Vibe.d sockets instead of ordinary sockets (I don't know what would happen if you don't use Vibe.d sockets. My guess is it just wouldn't happen asynchronously, but Sonke could answer that better). But Hibernate-D aims to be usable even without Vibe.d, so it uses Phobos sockets for MySQL (via a modified fork of an older mysql-native), and for PostgreSQL and SQLite it just uses the C libs. I've already converted mysql-native to support both Vibe.d and Phobos sockets, and I've already created a branch of Hibernate-D that makes Hibernate-D use the new official mysql-native and therefore automatically switch to Vibe.d sockets whenever Vibe.d is being used (detected by -version=Have_vibe_d, which is automatically added by DUB is you're using both Vibe.d and DUB). But G^DF*^ CKD*#MMIT I *just now* noticed that commit (and the pull request I could have sworn I made) seems to have completely disappeared without a trace...Shit, I gotta figure out what happened and where the hell it went... Ugh, anyway, I've been digging through Hibernate-D's source the last couple days checking out what else might be needed. As long as I get my magical disappearing commit resurrected, it *looks* to me like the only other thing that might be needed is to bypass Hibernate-D's built-in connection pool. Even that might still work as-is (I haven't tried), but it's not really necessary for Vibe.d users since Vibe.d has its own fiber-safe connection pool system. But it's pretty easy to bypass Hibernate-D's connection pool in favor of Vibe.D's connection pool in user-code without even patching Hibernate-D. AFAICT so far, it looks like everything else in Hibernate-D should work fine with Vibe.d. tl;dr: Hibernate-D does not use Vibe.d, but I have personal interest in using them together and I've been checking into it. Not sure what can be done about PostgreSQL and SQLite (I *think* they'll work but just not asynchronously - not sure what else can/should be done, I'd have to ask Sonke). But for MySQL, all you *should* need is a patch or two that I've been working on.Regarding PostgreSQL, keep in mind that it has an async API, which would be handy in building a Vibe-friendly wrapper: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/devel/static/libpq-async.html Graham
Jun 03 2013