digitalmars.D.announce - Another opportunity for a major design win has presented itself
- Walter Bright (7/7) Feb 07 2013 No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportun...
- Andrej Mitrovic (3/5) Feb 07 2013 Yeah we've been talking about this for ages.
- Walter Bright (2/3) Feb 07 2013 Yes (for a project of theirs).
- Andrej Mitrovic (2/6) Feb 07 2013 Can you give us a teaser on generally what kind of work they do?
- Walter Bright (2/3) Feb 07 2013 Much as I'd like to say more, I can't.
- bearophile (7/9) Feb 07 2013 At design time you sometimes have the luxury to choose the main
- bearophile (26/27) Feb 07 2013 This request is a bit too much vague. Please explain better what
- Maxim Fomin (10/18) Feb 07 2013 Wasn't this realized before? By the way, last weeks there seems
- Walter Bright (5/6) Feb 07 2013 The timing is indeed fortuitous.
- Nick B (4/12) Feb 07 2013 I know this is off-topic, but can/do companies purchase D support
- Walter Bright (2/4) Feb 07 2013 As of this year, yes.
- David (4/13) Feb 07 2013 Well, 110 open pull requests on DMD, awaiting their merge, look like
- Marco Leise (12/18) Feb 07 2013 It is like the news: Things boil up, get covered for a week and
- Jacob Carlborg (5/15) Feb 08 2013 As far as I know and if nothing has changed in the recent days shared
- Dicebot (1/1) Feb 07 2013 Can't wait to finally see (a) in all its glory :)
- Oleg Kuporosov (3/11) Feb 07 2013 That is cool, but what is the target platform - Win/Lin, 32/64?
- Walter Bright (3/4) Feb 07 2013 Initially, Linux. Once that is worked out, doing the others should be
- Benjamin Thaut (8/12) Feb 08 2013 Well windows will be quite some work because DLLs are not really fully
- eles (3/7) Feb 08 2013 My old request: if you speak Linux, a big + would be to push
- Jacob Carlborg (5/9) Feb 08 2013 We want to have this on all platforms but is there a platform that is
- Jacob Carlborg (5/6) Feb 08 2013 I'm willing to help on this one, especially for Mac OS X. I have wanted
- nazriel (3/11) Feb 08 2013 AFAIK Martin Nowak has done first part for you.
- Sean Kelly (9/14) Feb 08 2013 opportunity for us.
- Walter Bright (4/19) Feb 08 2013 A D app consisting of a main D exe with multiple D DLLs that can be
- Rob T (9/17) Feb 08 2013 Consider that there are apparently problems when linking and
- Iain Buclaw (7/10) Feb 08 2013 We should probably discuss implemetation ideas when you next have the
- Walter Bright (3/15) Feb 09 2013 Sure. I want to get the next release out, first, and then we'll get the ...
- Rob T (6/6) Feb 08 2013 The compiler currently has an option -shared for generating a
- Michael (3/5) Feb 09 2013 When I used gfortran, it was -shared only on windows, on linux
No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to work (b) improve language safety without degrading efficiency (c) improve quality as always Of course, these things benefit pretty much all D users anyway. Initially, (a) is the most important.
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:To get the design winWhat do you mean by "design" win? You mean we'd win another company over to D?(a) get dynamic linking and loading to workYeah we've been talking about this for ages.
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/2013 12:34 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:What do you mean by "design" win? You mean we'd win another company over to D?Yes (for a project of theirs).
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:On 2/7/2013 12:34 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:Can you give us a teaser on generally what kind of work they do?What do you mean by "design" win? You mean we'd win another company over to D?Yes (for a project of theirs).
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/2013 12:47 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:Can you give us a teaser on generally what kind of work they do?Much as I'd like to say more, I can't.
Feb 07 2013
Andrej Mitrovic:What do you mean by "design" win? You mean we'd win another company over to D?At design time you sometimes have the luxury to choose the main language you will use. I guess Walter meant that if D improves in the first of those points, D risks being the chosen language for that project. Bye, bearophile
Feb 07 2013
Walter Bright:(b) improve language safety without degrading efficiencyThis request is a bit too much vague. Please explain better what do you mean. (And in what cases? Maybe just in release mode, or in all kinds of releases?) There are many different ways to do this. Some of them need type system improvements (region analysis, removing some undefined situations, introducing a bit of flow analysis, introduce not-nullables, etc), some other of them ask for some kind of static analysis tool inside all the distributions of D compilers. Implementing a good library-defined Typedef (that the compiler is able to optimize away as much as possible) is a simple but useful improvement. In some cases safety comes from improving parts of D, like improving its Contracts, like this: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9454 Or adding the "old" (pre-state) to contracts, to make them more usable. Other ways to do it is to add a bit of analysis to be able to remove some array bound in non-release builds. If the request of not "degrading efficiency" is meant only in release mode, then there are many more ways to do it without making the type system more complex. General rule to keep in mind: if you accept no degraded efficiency then you need a more complex&refined type system, that usually is also more fussy and less easy to use. Bye, bearophile
Feb 07 2013
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us.This is nice.To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWasn't this realized before? By the way, last weeks there seems to be increasing dynamic linking & loading buzz like it was not an issue for ages.(b) improve language safety without degrading efficiencyThis is vague. Language safety (meaning design improvement) or implementation (fixing bugs)? How you can measure such improvement?(c) improve quality as alwaysThis is also vague. Quality of what: dmd/druntime/phobos?Of course, these things benefit pretty much all D users anyway. Initially, (a) is the most important.I guess recent patches dedicated to the issue came at right time.
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/2013 1:01 PM, Maxim Fomin wrote:I guess recent patches dedicated to the issue came at right time.The timing is indeed fortuitous. As for your comments about vagueness, yes, it is vague. The DLL support is clear, though, it either works or it doesn't. The other issues are a work in progress, and they understand that. We just have to make progress.
Feb 07 2013
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 21:11:18 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:On 2/7/2013 1:01 PM, Maxim Fomin wrote:I know this is off-topic, but can/do companies purchase D support from you/Digital Mars ? NickI guess recent patches dedicated to the issue came at right time.The timing is indeed fortuitous. As for your comments about vagueness, yes, it is vague. The DLL support is clear, though, it either works or it doesn't. The other issues are a work in progress, and they understand that. We just have to make progress.
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/2013 1:19 PM, Nick B wrote:but can/do companies purchase D support from you/Digital Mars ?As of this year, yes.
Feb 07 2013
Am 07.02.2013 22:11, schrieb Walter Bright:On 2/7/2013 1:01 PM, Maxim Fomin wrote:Well, 110 open pull requests on DMD, awaiting their merge, look like progress to me And Phobos has 43! Lot's of progressI guess recent patches dedicated to the issue came at right time.The timing is indeed fortuitous. As for your comments about vagueness, yes, it is vague. The DLL support is clear, though, it either works or it doesn't. The other issues are a work in progress, and they understand that. We just have to make progress.
Feb 07 2013
Am Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:01:10 +0100 schrieb "Maxim Fomin" <maxim maxim-fomin.ru>:On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:It is like the news: Things boil up, get covered for a week and disappear from public sight for a year. It has been an issue but people have probably arranged with static linking for now or not started to write a particular program in D. I remember I've tried to use structs with const members for a while for example, but arranged with making every field mutable. Now the topic showed up again after months. -- Marco(a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWasn't this realized before? By the way, last weeks there seems to be increasing dynamic linking & loading buzz like it was not an issue for ages.
Feb 07 2013
On 2013-02-07 22:01, Maxim Fomin wrote:On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:As far as I know and if nothing has changed in the recent days shared libraries to not work, at least not on Posix. -- /Jacob CarlborgNo, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us.This is nice.To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWasn't this realized before? By the way, last weeks there seems to be increasing dynamic linking & loading buzz like it was not an issue for ages.
Feb 08 2013
Can't wait to finally see (a) in all its glory :)
Feb 07 2013
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to work (b) improve language safety without degrading efficiency (c) improve quality as always Of course, these things benefit pretty much all D users anyway. Initially, (a) is the most important.That is cool, but what is the target platform - Win/Lin, 32/64? Oleg.
Feb 07 2013
On 2/7/2013 10:36 PM, Oleg Kuporosov wrote:That is cool, but what is the target platform - Win/Lin, 32/64?Initially, Linux. Once that is worked out, doing the others should be straightforward.
Feb 07 2013
Am 08.02.2013 08:18, schrieb Walter Bright:On 2/7/2013 10:36 PM, Oleg Kuporosov wrote:Well windows will be quite some work because DLLs are not really fully supported yet. Starting with these two issues: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3956 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=6673 I will make bug reports for all the dll issues I found in the next few days. Kind Regards Benjamni ThautThat is cool, but what is the target platform - Win/Lin, 32/64?Initially, Linux. Once that is worked out, doing the others should be straightforward.
Feb 08 2013
On Friday, 8 February 2013 at 07:18:56 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:On 2/7/2013 10:36 PM, Oleg Kuporosov wrote:My old request: if you speak Linux, a big + would be to push forward gdc and gcc integration.That is cool, but what is the target platform - Win/Lin, 32/64?Initially, Linux. Once that is worked out, doing the others should be straightforward.
Feb 08 2013
On 2013-02-07 21:16, Walter Bright wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWe want to have this on all platforms but is there a platform that is prioritized for them? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Feb 08 2013
On 2013-02-07 21:16, Walter Bright wrote:(a) get dynamic linking and loading to workI'm willing to help on this one, especially for Mac OS X. I have wanted this for quite a long time. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Feb 08 2013
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workAFAIK Martin Nowak has done first part for you. Pull requests only needs to be merged to druntime I guess :)(b) improve language safety without degrading efficiency (c) improve quality as always Of course, these things benefit pretty much all D users anyway. Initially, (a) is the most important.
Feb 08 2013
On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> = wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge =opportunity for us.=20 To get the design win, we need to: =20 (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWhich platform? Loading a single dynamic D library or multiple = libraries? What language will the hosting app be written in? What are = the parameters for the dynamic library interface? ie. extern C? D = functions? UDTs as well? Might exceptions be thrown across the library = boundary? Portions of this work better than others and it would help to = know where to focus our efforts.=
Feb 08 2013
On 2/8/2013 12:29 PM, Sean Kelly wrote:On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:linux.No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWhich platform?Loading a single dynamic D library or multiple libraries? What language will the hosting app be written in? What are the parameters for the dynamic library interface? ie. extern C? D functions? UDTs as well? Might exceptions be thrown across the library boundary? Portions of this work better than others and it would help to know where to focus our efforts.A D app consisting of a main D exe with multiple D DLLs that can be loaded/unloaded at runtime will work.
Feb 08 2013
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 at 20:16:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to work (b) improve language safety without degrading efficiency (c) improve quality as always Of course, these things benefit pretty much all D users anyway. Initially, (a) is the most important.Consider that there are apparently problems when linking and loading D libs into C/C++ apps. I was told that the GC won't work correctly, but I'm no longer sure exactly why. If we can safely link+load shared D libs into C/C++ apps, it is not only useful to have right now, but it also opens up a safe migration path for C/C++ users to start using D with their existing C/C++ apps, and if it works well, they may start using D fully. --rt
Feb 08 2013
On 7 Feb 2013 20:21, "Walter Bright" <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a hugeopportunity for us.To get the design win, we need to: (a) get dynamic linking and loading to workWe should probably discuss implemetation ideas when you next have the opportunity. :) ---- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
Feb 08 2013
On 2/8/2013 6:19 PM, Iain Buclaw wrote:On 7 Feb 2013 20:21, "Walter Bright" <newshound2 digitalmars.com <mailto:newshound2 digitalmars.com>> wrote: > > No, I can't say who it is at this time. Sorry. But it is a huge opportunity for us. > > To get the design win, we need to: > > (a) get dynamic linking and loading to work > We should probably discuss implemetation ideas when you next have the opportunity. :)Sure. I want to get the next release out, first, and then we'll get the shared library thing working.
Feb 09 2013
The compiler currently has an option -shared for generating a shared library. It also has an option -fPIC for generating position independent code. If option -shared is selected, will it automatically generate as PIC, or do you have to also specify -fPIC? --rt
Feb 08 2013
If option -shared is selected, will it automatically generate as PIC, or do you have to also specify -fPIC?When I used gfortran, it was -shared only on windows, on linux both options: -shared and -fPIC. Was obtained empirically.
Feb 09 2013