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digitalmars.D - Please mark off-topic discussions with [OT]

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D language, 
and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] in title when 
posting anything that is not releated to the D language.

Thanks,

Andrei
May 14 2016
next sibling parent reply ZombineDev <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] 
 in title when posting anything that is not releated to the D 
 language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


What do you think about promoting the Study group to the level of 
General, so we can use it for technical discussions and leave 
General for the rest?
May 14 2016
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/16 4:16 PM, ZombineDev wrote:

 What do you think about promoting the Study group to the level of
 General, so we can use it for technical discussions and leave General
 for the rest?


It has become clear to me we need to create one more forum. -- Andrei
May 14 2016
prev sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:16:56 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place 
 [OT] in title when posting anything that is not releated to 
 the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 What do you think about promoting the Study group to the level 
 of General, so we can use it for technical discussions and 
 leave General for the rest?


I agree that we should restructure the groups :)
Maybe we can also have separate discussion groups for dmd, 
druntime and phobos (the current groups get hopelessly spammed by 
Github)?
May 14 2016
parent reply ZombineDev <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:22:09 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:16:56 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place 
 [OT] in title when posting anything that is not releated to 
 the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 What do you think about promoting the Study group to the level 
 of General, so we can use it for technical discussions and 
 leave General for the rest?


 I agree that we should restructure the groups :)



 Maybe we can also have separate discussion groups for dmd, 
 druntime and phobos (the current groups get hopelessly spammed 
 by Github)?


Or just unsubscribe those groups from github. dmd, for example, 
doesn't get messages from github anymore.
May 14 2016
parent reply Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Saturday, May 14, 2016 13:27:17 ZombineDev via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Or just unsubscribe those groups from github. dmd, for example,
 doesn't get messages from github anymore.


I actually like having a mailing list that gets all of those messages,
though it really doesn't work to have it then be used for normal
communication.

- Jonathan M Davis
May 14 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/14/2016 9:31 AM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Saturday, May 14, 2016 13:27:17 ZombineDev via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Or just unsubscribe those groups from github. dmd, for example,
 doesn't get messages from github anymore.


 I actually like having a mailing list that gets all of those messages,
 though it really doesn't work to have it then be used for normal
 communication.


I like getting the github messages for another reason. There's an awful lot of 
value in those messages. If github goes dark for whatever reason, we all have 
copies of the git repositories, that's not a problem. But the messages would 
disappear.

I.e. it's a (crude) backup of the github messages.
May 14 2016
parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 19:34:12 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 5/14/2016 9:31 AM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Saturday, May 14, 2016 13:27:17 ZombineDev via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Or just unsubscribe those groups from github. dmd, for 
 example,
 doesn't get messages from github anymore.


 I actually like having a mailing list that gets all of those 
 messages,
 though it really doesn't work to have it then be used for 
 normal
 communication.


 I like getting the github messages for another reason. There's 
 an awful lot of value in those messages. If github goes dark 
 for whatever reason, we all have copies of the git 
 repositories, that's not a problem. But the messages would 
 disappear.

 I.e. it's a (crude) backup of the github messages.


But we just store the pushed commits there (aka history) - this 
is contained in every git repo and can be easily accessed by `git 
log`.
So if having a backup of the Github PRs important to us, we 
should have a proper solution that uses the Github API [1] and 
stores the issues in a machine-friendly format from time to time.

[1] https://developer.github.com/v3/pulls/

Anyhow I think the idea was to split off the main thread 
"General" in different categories like:

- DMD
- DRuntime
- Phobos
- Design/Study
- Other/off-topic
May 15 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike James <foo bar.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] 
 in title when posting anything that is not releated to the D 
 language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


A lot of message forums have an "Off Topic" section for non 
subject related discussion. Why not create such a section?

Regards,
-=mike=-
May 14 2016
next sibling parent reply ZombineDev <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 14:32:03 UTC, Mike James wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place 
 [OT] in title when posting anything that is not releated to 
 the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 A lot of message forums have an "Off Topic" section for non 
 subject related discussion. Why not create such a section?

 Regards,
 -=mike=-


At first I also thought about that, but since this is a mailing 
list and not a forum, it is not possible to move threads to 
different sections/groups, AFAIK.
May 14 2016
parent Mike James <foo bar.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 14:41:06 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 14:32:03 UTC, Mike James wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place 
 [OT] in title when posting anything that is not releated to 
 the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 A lot of message forums have an "Off Topic" section for non 
 subject related discussion. Why not create such a section?

 Regards,
 -=mike=-


 At first I also thought about that, but since this is a mailing 
 list and not a forum, it is not possible to move threads to 
 different sections/groups, AFAIK.


Maybe create a "bikeshed" forum so topics can begin and end 
there... :-)

Regards,
-=mike=-
May 14 2016
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/16 10:32 AM, Mike James wrote:

 A lot of message forums have an "Off Topic" section for non subject
 related discussion. Why not create such a section?


Doesn't work. Individual posts should be marked with [OT], not entire 
threads. Any given thread may have random OT comments. -- Andrei
May 15 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum.



I have a better idea: add an ignore thread button to dfeed. If 
you see a thread or a post you don't care about, you click that 
one button and then all its descendants are automatically hidden 
and no longer notify you.

If you don't use dfeed, get a better client that already supports 
this feature.


Then, it works beyond just [OT] - a tag which you'd have to 
handle anyway; marked traffic is still traffic.
May 14 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] 
 in title when posting anything that is not releated to the D 
 language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


It was about contributing to the dlang github so seems on-topic 
to me.  It's not clear what you're trying to avoid.  I posted a 
link to a much-read article about scripting languages' failures, 
along with a D forum link that talks about avoiding one big 
problem he raised, on-topic?

http://forum.dlang.org/thread/tvyxljetdhjequhudfpv forum.dlang.org

I think so, though his article doesn't mention D.
May 14 2016
next sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 15:46:27 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language, and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place 
 [OT] in title when posting anything that is not releated to 
 the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 It was about contributing to the dlang github so seems on-topic 
 to me.  It's not clear what you're trying to avoid.  I posted a 
 link to a much-read article about scripting languages' 
 failures, along with a D forum link that talks about avoiding 
 one big problem he raised, on-topic?

 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/tvyxljetdhjequhudfpv forum.dlang.org

 I think so, though his article doesn't mention D.


The question is what is [OT] and what isn't? Theoretically 
anything that does not talk about D internals may be called [OT]. 
The problem I see here is that if we become too orthodox, after a 
while people might not "dare" to post anything that could be 
considered [OT] by _some_, although it might be an important or 
perfectly on topic issue. A lot of people will then stay away 
completely and not even read the threads anymore, as Nick pointed 
out. It can turn you off, if you get scolded for an innocent [OT] 
remark within a post.

I think Adam's suggestion is good. Just ignore things you're not 
interested in (although it can sometimes cost you €73, if you 
ignore threads ;)
May 14 2016
parent reply Ann W. Griffith <awgreataw online.us> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 16:59:32 UTC, Chris wrote:

 I think Adam's suggestion is good. Just ignore things you're 
 not interested in (although it can sometimes cost you €73, if 
 you ignore threads ;)


73€ ? Do you talk about the free book ?
May 14 2016
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 17:03:39 UTC, Ann W. Griffith wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 16:59:32 UTC, Chris wrote:

 I think Adam's suggestion is good. Just ignore things you're 
 not interested in (although it can sometimes cost you €73, if 
 you ignore threads ;)


 73€ ? Do you talk about the free book ?


It was actually €76

http://forum.dlang.org/post/nga15t$1o7p$1 digitalmars.com
May 14 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/16 11:46 AM, Joakim wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D language,
 and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] in title when
 posting anything that is not releated to the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 It was about contributing to the dlang github so seems on-topic to me.
 It's not clear what you're trying to avoid.


I'm trying to avoid inflation of traffic unrelated to the D language and 
environment. I agree that Walter's original post is on topic but a large 
part of follow-ups have definitely migrated into off-topic territory.


 I posted a link to a
 much-read article about scripting languages' failures, along with a D
 forum link that talks about avoiding one big problem he raised, on-topic?

 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/tvyxljetdhjequhudfpv forum.dlang.org

 I think so, though his article doesn't mention D.


I do agree that that's on topic. Leaving to each of us to decide what's 
on topic should work if we all adhere.


Andrei
May 15 2016
parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 18:33:45 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/14/16 11:46 AM, Joakim wrote:

 On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 13:07:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D 
 language,
 and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] in 
 title when
 posting anything that is not releated to the D language.

 Thanks,

 Andrei


 It was about contributing to the dlang github so seems 
 on-topic to me.
 It's not clear what you're trying to avoid.


 I'm trying to avoid inflation of traffic unrelated to the D 
 language and environment. I agree that Walter's original post 
 is on topic but a large part of follow-ups have definitely 
 migrated into off-topic territory.


 I posted a link to a
 much-read article about scripting languages' failures, along 
 with a D
 forum link that talks about avoiding one big problem he 
 raised, on-topic?

 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/tvyxljetdhjequhudfpv forum.dlang.org

 I think so, though his article doesn't mention D.


 I do agree that that's on topic. Leaving to each of us to 
 decide what's on topic should work if we all adhere.


 Andrei


OK,that should be doable.  If Vlad adds a header at the top of 
the General forum that'll show up above every thread, something 
like this:

Please mark any post or thread that doesn't reference the D 
language as [OT].

Otherwise, people, especially noobs, would have to constantly be 
reminded about this.
May 15 2016
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/16/16 12:05 AM, Joakim wrote:

 OK,that should be doable.  If Vlad adds a header at the top of the
 General forum that'll show up above every thread, something like this:

 Please mark any post or thread that doesn't reference the D language as
 [OT].


Also, right below that line, a checkbox "Filter out [OT] posts" would 
complete the feature. -- Andrei
May 16 2016
prev sibling parent reply Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On 05/14/2016 03:07 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 The thread "Github names & avatars" is not related to the D language,
 and adds much traffic to the forum. Please place [OT] in title when
 posting anything that is not releated to the D language.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Andrei


To me it makes no difference, information to noise ration of main NG is
just too bad, mark stuff [OT] or not. Most of technically on topic stuff
is also of too low importance to track all the time. It is more of a
structural issue.
May 15 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 09:48:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 To me it makes no difference, information to noise ration of 
 main NG is just too bad, mark stuff [OT] or not.


I think the bigger problem is that interesting discussions just 
don't happen.

I'm subscribed to the Phobos, dmd-internal, and rc-study lists. 
They have almost zero traffic aside from the github notices.


They certainly don't have an off-topic spam problem drowning out 
the conversation, so why isn't there more signal there?
May 15 2016
parent reply Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 19:02:57 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 09:48:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 To me it makes no difference, information to noise ration of 
 main NG is just too bad, mark stuff [OT] or not.


 I think the bigger problem is that interesting discussions just 
 don't happen.


Well, for me any sort of general discussion (one that doesn't 
result in immediate decision of some sort) is "noise" category, 
interesting or not. Key information I want to know is in the 
spirit of "what is happening upstream? how will it affect my 
job?". Study mail list is almost perfect in this regard - low 
traffic, always related to important language changes, high 
effective impact. Announce NG is okay-ish - most announcement are 
irrelevant to any specific person but it is very easy to keep 
track of them and filter accordingly. Main NG is more of a chance 
game in that regard.
May 15 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 19:11:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 Key information I want to know is in the spirit of "what is 
 happening upstream? how will it affect my job?".


I agree - what I really want to see is the core contributors 
(starting, but not limited to Walter and Andrei themselves) just 
posting regular updates.

Not a discussion thread, that'd waste time arguing every day, 
just a series of tweet-length updates like "I'm working on DWARF 
EH for C++ interop." or "Still designing Big-O library for 
containers, but busy with conferences too."
May 15 2016
parent Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On 05/15/2016 09:22 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Sunday, 15 May 2016 at 19:11:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 Key information I want to know is in the spirit of "what is happening
 upstream? how will it affect my job?".


 
 I agree - what I really want to see is the core contributors (starting,
 but not limited to Walter and Andrei themselves) just posting regular
 updates.
 
 Not a discussion thread, that'd waste time arguing every day, just a
 series of tweet-length updates like "I'm working on DWARF EH for C++
 interop." or "Still designing Big-O library for containers, but busy
 with conferences too."


https://trello.com/b/XoFjxiqG/active helps a bit but it is pretty much
only maintained by Martin.
May 16 2016