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digitalmars.D - On the panel discussion at Dconf day 3

reply A.Guy <aguy mailinator.com> writes:
During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence 
of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. 
Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time 
amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on 
YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora 
representative speak, we could have received substantial details 
from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize I should 
listen to the contributors and not mind my own business..." 
comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and excessive 
promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening in the 
midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of presence and 
media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt embarrassed.
Sep 04 2023
next sibling parent reply user1234 <user1234 12.de> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

 During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the 
 presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in 
 poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much 
 speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing 
 the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed 
 advertisements.

 If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
 all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora 
 representative speak, we could have received substantial 
 details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize 
 I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own 
 business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and 
 excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening 
 in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of 
 presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt 
 embarrassed.


It [was 
announced](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/bzflkxoidxzldsnjvhfi forum.dlang.org)
by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to introduce the adhesion with
UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of transparency.


 Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time 
 amid various technical questions


During the panel talk, one of the question asked to the UCORA 
representative was actually planed to be asked on day one... 
maybe this contributed to give the impression of 
over-representation. However the answer, as summarized 
[here](https://gist.github.com/p0nce/3cd6fc0df00763e7f642e3111807ee8f#panel-ask-us-anything-with-walter-bright-%C3%A1tila-neves-mathias-lang-dennis-korpel-saeed
sabeti-mike-parker) was "The D community at large doesn't have to care". Given
your name, "A.Guy", I'm gonna assume that, just like me, you fall in that
"large" category ;)
Sep 04 2023
next sibling parent Francesco Mecca <dlang francescomecca.eu> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

 During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the 
 presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in 
 poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much 
 speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing 
 the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching 
 interspersed advertisements.

 If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
 all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora 
 representative speak, we could have received substantial 
 details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize 
 I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own 
 business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff 
 and excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this 
 happening in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some 
 level of presence and media attention. As a spectator, I 
 simply felt embarrassed.


 It [was 
 announced](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/bzflkxoidxzldsnjv
fi forum.dlang.org) by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to
introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of
transparency.


 Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking 
 time amid various technical questions


 During the panel talk, one of the question asked to the UCORA 
 representative was actually planed to be asked on day one... 
 maybe this contributed to give the impression of 
 over-representation. However the answer, as summarized 
 [here](https://gist.github.com/p0nce/3cd6fc0df00763e7f642e3111807ee8f#panel-ask-us-anything-with-walter-bright-%C3%A1tila-neves-mathias-lang-dennis-korpel-saeed
sabeti-mike-parker) was "The D community at large doesn't have to care". Given
your name, "A.Guy", I'm gonna assume that, just like me, you fall in that
"large" category ;)


I have seen most of the day 3 stream on youtube and while I don't 
agree that the Ucor had over-representation, I hold the opinion 
that if the D community doesn't have to care about Ucora, for 
sure we have heard a lot about them, always in very generic terms 
and without a trace of proof that they did something significant. 
While I am happy that D is gaining some corporate traction, I 
have personally interacted with Sociomantic people and Symmetry 
people, this Ucora thing seems more like a cult. My personal IVY 
statement is that if this IVY program works, we would see the 
effects of it in the short/medium term, for now we only have the 
free - I hope! -  marketing done by Walter, Mike and Atila.

I am not contributing to D anymore for different reasons but I am 
still following development closely. Nothing has effectively 
changed in the past year.

My current position in this is that I don't care much about Ucora 
but I welcome any positive change by the core D team. That would 
speak more for Ucora than  any of the free visibility they got at 
Dconf
Sep 04 2023
prev sibling parent reply Sergey <kornburn yandex.ru> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

 It [was 
 announced](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/bzflkxoidxzldsnjv
fi forum.dlang.org) by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to
introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of
transparency.


Ok. But next time DLF please invite some language or technical 
related guest.
Previously we had outstanding guests... Meyers, Odersky, 
Ierusalimschy, Alexandrescu

Could we return to this tradition?
Sep 04 2023
parent user1234 <user1234 12.de> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:58:53 UTC, Sergey wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

 It [was 
 announced](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/bzflkxoidxzldsnjv
fi forum.dlang.org) by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to
introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of
transparency.


 Ok. But next time DLF please invite some language or technical 
 related guest.
 Previously we had outstanding guests... Meyers,


Ah yes, that year in Berlin with Meyers was so cool ;)
The venue was **overcool** too. Little streaming issues however 
IIRC tho.


 Odersky, Ierusalimschy, Alexandrescu

 Could we return to this tradition?
Sep 04 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

 During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the 
 presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in 
 poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much 
 speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing 
 the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed 
 advertisements.

 If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
 all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora 
 representative speak, we could have received substantial 
 details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize 
 I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own 
 business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and 
 excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening 
 in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of 
 presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt 
 embarrassed.


For quite a while, we'd received many complaints about lack of 
vision/direction/management. When we finished the IVY program, I 
made an announcement to let everyone know we're trying to do 
something about that. IVY just happens to be the tool we're using 
to make it happen.

Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it a 
cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in 
another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf 
sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received 
several DMs and emails about it.

We invited Saeed as our guest speaker and added him to our panel 
so that we could better inform the community what IVY actually is 
and give them the opportunity to ask questions of the source. The 
purpose was infornational, not commercial. The workshop allowed 
those interested in learning more to get a closer look. Several 
people took advantage.

We are employing IVY to better organize and establish a path for 
pushing D, the ecosystem, and our community forward. You really 
don't have to care about it at all. If you want to think it's a 
cult, that's your prerogative. I can tell you until the cows come 
home that it is not a cult and that we aren't just marketing it 
for Ucora, and you might never  believe me. That's perfectly 
fine. Go about using D and participating in the community in any 
way you like and forget that IVY exists.

One of the things IVY is doing for us is helping us to learn how 
to identify why our contributors want to contribute and what form 
of contribution would best suit them. That will help us better 
determine which tasks in our ecosystem any given contributor will 
be the most motivated and passionate about completing. If any 
given contributor wants to actively participate in IVY, then 
their IVY statement will make the process of assigning tasks even 
easier. Motivated and passionate contributors will hopefully be 
happier about their contributions and should see more positive 
outcomes---a win-win for all of us.

Ucora's motivation comes in wanting to see the D Language 
Foundation succeed. They have built their business on D and it is 
very much in their long-term interest for the D language, 
ecosystem, and community to thrive. They might make money off of 
IVY as a consequence, but it's the survivability of D that led 
them to invite us to their program pro bono. Their interests are 
aligned with ours. I see that as a win for all of us.

I'm always happy to talk to anyone about what IVY is and how 
we're using it, but we aren't going to force it on anyone. We 
just want to solve the problems our users are having, build out 
the ecosystem to be more useful and cover more ground, and 
generally make our favorite programming language even better.
Sep 04 2023
next sibling parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 19:33:50 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:


 For quite a while, we'd received many complaints about lack of 
 vision/direction/management. When we finished the IVY program, 
 I made an announcement to let everyone know we're trying to do 
 something about that. IVY just happens to be the tool we're 
 using to make it happen.

 Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it 
 a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in 
 another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf 
 sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received 
 several DMs and emails about it.


I think the issue is that some view development of the language 
as a programming problem. If that's your view, talking about IVY 
is at best out of place, because it's a distraction from writing 
new lines of code.
Sep 04 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
The offer for Ivy training roughly coincided with this thread:

https://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/D_has_become_unbearable_and_it_needs_to_stop_369162.html

I was skeptical of Ivy, as I've seen a lot of things like it. But I also knew
we 
needed improvement in how D was managed, so I was willing to give it a try.

The result is pretty obvious, we have changed direction. Ideas for new features 
for D have been deferred for the time being. What we're working on instead:

1. we are no longer going to break things just because they are obsolete
features

2. obsolete features we removed are being added back in

3. we want to ensure that, as much as practical, old code will compile without 
needing modification or modification to their build mechanism (i.e. makefile)

4. we are going to prioritize fixing existing problems

5. we are going to try to assign tasks to our diverse community in ways that 
better match up with what people want to do. Personally, I was surprised at how 
different peoples' reasons for joining the community are. I just assumed 
everyone is just like me :-)

It's perfectly normal for managers to go through some sort of training. I am 
certainly not a born leader, as you all know, and can use the help. None of it 
is a secret, and we thought it would be nice to share with our community, and
at 
the very least you all would understand why we were making these changes in 
direction.

Everyone is free to use it or not as they see fit.
Sep 04 2023
parent reply ryuukk_ <ryuukk.dev gmail.com> writes:
 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time 
 being


This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged 
union / tuple since forever

IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze 
state
Sep 07 2023
next sibling parent "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 08/09/2023 6:31 AM, ryuukk_ wrote:

 the language is now in a deep freeze state


Nope.

New features were off the table for a year so as to allow us to focus on 
fixing bugs and hopefully finish of existing approved ones. DIP queue 
will be brought back at the end of this year. That was always the plan 
and was confirmed at DConf.
Sep 07 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:31:10 PM MDT ryuukk_ via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time
 being


 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged
 union / tuple since forever


Well, waiting for any particular feature could always mean waiting forever,
since some stuff is never going to make it into D regardless, though of
course, it's hard to know ahead of time which features will eventually make
it in and which won't.


 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze
 state


Not really. All that really seems to have come out of IVY is that Walter and
and company have re-examined the role of the D foundation, what their
personal goals are with regards to D, and what the goal of the foundation
should be. No bureucracy was actually added as part of any of it. At most,
some time was arguably lost with the time that they spent in IVY meetings to
go over their goals and where they want to go with D, but if what came out
of those meetings helped focus them (as it sounds like happened), it could
be that the overall result will be less time wasted over time. Either way,
there was no bureaucracy added to how the D foundation or the D development
process actually functions.

Basically, Walter and company re-examined where they wanted D to go and what
they could best do to achieve that, and they were getting a lot of feedback
that too much existing code was being broken, and not enough bugs were
getting fixed. So, they're temporarily focusing on fixing stuff over adding
new stuff, and they're working on coming up with a cleaner way to add new
features to the language over time without breaking existing code. That does
mean that we're not getting new features for the moment, but it doesn't mean
that things will stay that way, and depending on how well they do with
better enabling adding new features without breaking code, we might actually
see more new features in the future than we would have otherwise.

They're still trying to figure out the details, but it sounds like they're
going to attempt to make it so that major changes to the language will be
versioned off in some fashion (what they're calling additions) while letting
older code compile with the same semantics that it had before. So, newer
code will use a newer version of the language while still being able to work
with older code that hasn't been updated. How well they're going to pull
that off is an open question, but if they do a good job with it, it should
make it easier to make larger changes, because they won't be breaking older
code at the same time, whereas right now, they have to be very worried about
breaking existing code with every change that they make. So, the fact that
they're re-examining their approach to making breaking changes to the
language could actually result in us getting new features faster over time
even if it means that there has temporarily been a freeze on new features in
the meantime.

- Jonathan M Davis
Sep 07 2023
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/7/2023 11:56 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 (what they're calling additions)


editions
Sep 07 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent German Diago <germandiago gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 7 September 2023 at 18:31:10 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time 
 being


 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged 
 union / tuple since forever

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep 
 freeze state


I really think D already has a very compelling set of features 
today. Priority for real-world stability is a good thing. Later, 
things can be added. That increases the chances of D being 
adopted and adoption is not just for pleasing corporations. It is 
also what will keep the language going ahead and what makes 
people write software in it in the first place.
Sep 07 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/7/2023 11:31 AM, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being


 
 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged union / tuple
since 
 forever
 
 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already seeing
the 
 effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state
 


A fine example of we can't please everybody!
Sep 07 2023
prev sibling parent reply Paul Backus <snarwin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 7 September 2023 at 18:31:10 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time 
 being


 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged 
 union / tuple since forever

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep 
 freeze state


On a project of D's size and scope, there is no such thing as "no 
bureaucracy." The only choice is between explicit, formal 
bureaucracy that's been designed intentionally; and implicit, 
informal bureaucracy that's been designed by accident.

What we currently have is the implicit, informal kind of 
bureaucracy, which has all the disadvantages (hard to get things 
done) without any of the potential advantages (easy to keep track 
of what's being done and who's responsible). Moving away from 
this towards a more explicit system should be an easy win.
Sep 09 2023
parent reply ryuukk_ <ryuukk.dev gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:

 On Thursday, 7 September 2023 at 18:31:10 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time 
 being


 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged 
 union / tuple since forever

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep 
 freeze state


 On a project of D's size and scope, there is no such thing as 
 "no bureaucracy." The only choice is between explicit, formal 
 bureaucracy that's been designed intentionally; and implicit, 
 informal bureaucracy that's been designed by accident.

 What we currently have is the implicit, informal kind of 
 bureaucracy, which has all the disadvantages (hard to get 
 things done) without any of the potential advantages (easy to 
 keep track of what's being done and who's responsible). Moving 
 away from this towards a more explicit system should be an easy 
 win.


I don't buy any of this, this is just a way to distance yourself 
from the people who actually use the language and want to solve 
problems, what tools are in there for those who don't want to use 
EH/GC? nothing, does IVY has the answer? does IVY people know how 
to program in C, do they know what competition is doing?

Tuple DIP predates this IVY thing, what are the excuses
Sep 09 2023
next sibling parent claptrap <clap trap.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC, Paul Backus 
 wrote:


 I don't buy any of this, this is just a way to distance 
 yourself from the people who actually use the language and want 
 to solve problems,


You seriously think that's what they are doing?

Why?



 Sep 09 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Paul Backus <snarwin gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Tuple DIP predates this IVY thing, what are the excuses


This is exactly my point. The Tuple DIP has been around for years 
under the pre-IVY system, with almost no progress. Clearly, the 
pre-IVY system is not doing a very good job here!

I have no attachment to IVY in particular, but we're going to 
have to try *something* new if we want things to change.



 Sep 09 2023



  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


https://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/D_has_become_unbearable_and_it_needs_to_stop_369162.html



 Sep 10 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Adam Wilson <flyboynw gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC, Paul Backus 
 wrote:

 On Thursday, 7 September 2023 at 18:31:10 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time 
 being


 This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged 
 union / tuple since forever

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep 
 freeze state


 On a project of D's size and scope, there is no such thing as 
 "no bureaucracy." The only choice is between explicit, formal 
 bureaucracy that's been designed intentionally; and implicit, 
 informal bureaucracy that's been designed by accident.

 What we currently have is the implicit, informal kind of 
 bureaucracy, which has all the disadvantages (hard to get 
 things done) without any of the potential advantages (easy to 
 keep track of what's being done and who's responsible). Moving 
 away from this towards a more explicit system should be an 
 easy win.


 I don't buy any of this, this is just a way to distance 
 yourself from the people who actually use the language and want 
 to solve problems, what tools are in there for those who don't 
 want to use EH/GC? nothing, does IVY has the answer? does IVY 
 people know how to program in C, do they know what competition 
 is doing?

 Tuple DIP predates this IVY thing, what are the excuses


For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one 
that was discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered 
Walter wants to move in the direction of a Herb Sutter style 
system where exceptions are returned up the stack silently via a 
shadow value in the return statement. It's actually a pretty 
elegant solution. It's not here now because of the pause, but 
it's coming because Walter wants it.

GC. Two points.

First there is  nogc and -vgc. Turn those on and the GC won't 
run. If your contention is that you want to use some parts of the 
language that use the GC, well, frankly, that's just too bad, 
your choices are either don't use those parts or submit a PR to 
rewrite those bits to not use the GC. Fortunately most of Phobos 
is available without the GC so I don't really see what the 
problem is.

Second, if your contention is that the GC *exists at all* and 
that's bad and it should be removed... I have bad news. I asked 
Walter whether or not he would ever sanction removing the GC and 
his answer was "Never. GC code is inherently memory safe code." 
which means that as memory safety is one of D's key selling 
points, the GC is here to stay. In fact there are efforts 
underway to improve the performance of the GC considerably.

Tools exist to disable the GC at runtime, if you don't want the 
GC, use them. The rest of us will happily go on using the GC and 
this is a non-issue.



 Sep 09 2023



 next sibling parent  "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz>  writes:


On 10/09/2023 2:12 PM, Adam Wilson wrote:

 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one that was 
 discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered Walter wants to move 
 in the direction of a Herb Sutter style system where exceptions are 
 returned up the stack silently via a shadow value in the return 
 statement. It's actually a pretty elegant solution. It's not here now 
 because of the pause, but it's coming because Walter wants it.


I want it as well, and have done work towards it.

https://github.com/rikkimax/DIPs/blob/value_type_exceptions/DIPs/DIP1xxx-RC.md

It needs sumtypes to be a complete design, which is the current sticking 
point.



 Sep 09 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent reply German Diago <germandiag gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 02:12:17 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one 
 that was discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered 
 Walter wants to move in the direction of a Herb Sutter style 
 system where exceptions are returned up the stack silently via 
 a shadow value in the return statement.


Would this require explicit propagation or call stack refactoring?
That would be bad news.



 Sep 10 2023



  parent  Paul Backus <snarwin gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 17:22:55 UTC, German Diago wrote:

 On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 02:12:17 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and 
 one that was discussed at length at DConf. From what I 
 gathered Walter wants to move in the direction of a Herb 
 Sutter style system where exceptions are returned up the stack 
 silently via a shadow value in the return statement.


 Would this require explicit propagation or call stack 
 refactoring?
 That would be bad news.


You can read the C++ proposal for more details:

https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2019/p0709r4.pdf



 Sep 10 2023



prev sibling  parent reply electricface <electricface qq.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 02:12:17 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 [...]


 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one 
 that was discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered 
 Walter wants to move in the direction of a Herb Sutter style 
 system where exceptions are returned up the stack silently via 
 a shadow value in the return statement. It's actually a pretty 
 elegant solution. It's not here now because of the pause, but


I also think that this kind of exception handling would be more 
efficient. When can we expect to see any actual progress on this 
feature?



 Mar 25



 next sibling parent  "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz>  writes:


On 26/03/2024 2:58 PM, electricface wrote:

 On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 02:12:17 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 [...]


 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one that 
 was discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered Walter wants to 
 move in the direction of a Herb Sutter style system where exceptions 
 are returned up the stack silently via a shadow value in the return 
 statement. It's actually a pretty elegant solution. It's not here now 
 because of the pause, but


 
 I also think that this kind of exception handling would be more 
 efficient. When can we expect to see any actual progress on this feature?


I'm currently waiting on sum types to continue towards a DIP.

It depends upon it for catch all, plus there may be some reuse in the 
compiler.



 Mar 25



prev sibling  parent  "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh qfbox.info>  writes:


On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 01:58:46AM +0000, electricface via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 02:12:17 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 September 2023 at 19:06:24 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:

 [...]


 
 For the moment EH is a problem, but it's known problem, and one that
 was discussed at length at DConf. From what I gathered Walter wants
 to move in the direction of a Herb Sutter style system where
 exceptions are returned up the stack silently via a shadow value in
 the return statement. It's actually a pretty elegant solution.




[...]

I've been saying this for years now, good to finally see some movement
in this direction.


T

-- 
"If you're arguing, you're losing." -- Mike Thomas



 Mar 25



prev sibling  parent reply Ethan <gooberman gmail.com>  writes:


On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 19:33:50 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it 
 a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in 
 another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf 
 sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received 
 several DMs and emails about it.


I have zero investment in IVY/Ucora, and I was emcee at DConf. So 
I'll say this to the crowd with the above as context:

Have y'all never held a job in IT? Like, an actual 
go-to-the-office job?

I'm having a hard time imagining anyone that's ever had to sit 
through SCRUM training for example calling what was on stage 
during that Q&A cultish.



 Sep 05 2023



 next sibling parent  Meta <jared771 gmail.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 5 September 2023 at 12:41:19 UTC, Ethan wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 19:33:50 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it 
 a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in 
 another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf 
 sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received 
 several DMs and emails about it.


 I have zero investment in IVY/Ucora, and I was emcee at DConf. 
 So I'll say this to the crowd with the above as context:

 Have y'all never held a job in IT? Like, an actual 
 go-to-the-office job?

 I'm having a hard time imagining anyone that's ever had to sit 
 through SCRUM training for example calling what was on stage 
 during that Q&A cultish.


+1
The negative reaction to IVY has been embarrassing IMO.



 Sep 06 2023



prev sibling  parent reply FeepingCreature <feepingcreature gmail.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 5 September 2023 at 12:41:19 UTC, Ethan wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 19:33:50 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it 
 a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in 
 another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf 
 sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received 
 several DMs and emails about it.


 I have zero investment in IVY/Ucora, and I was emcee at DConf. 
 So I'll say this to the crowd with the above as context:

 Have y'all never held a job in IT? Like, an actual 
 go-to-the-office job?

 I'm having a hard time imagining anyone that's ever had to sit 
 through SCRUM training for example calling what was on stage 
 during that Q&A cultish.


To be fair, I've held a job for several years now with, thank 
goodness, minimal exposure to consultants and any sort of social 
"system" training course. That sort of thing tends to vary widely 
depending, for instance, on the size of the company.

But also, lots of people who get into niche languages are uni 
students, and thank goodness we aren't far enough gone to have 
scrum training at uni yet.



 Sep 07 2023



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 9/7/2023 11:34 AM, FeepingCreature wrote:

 minimal exposure to consultants and any sort of social "system" training
course.


There are many of them, and the efficacy of them varies widely, of course.

The military, for example, is very organized in providing leadership training
to 
officers. This is based on a couple thousand years of recorded military
history. 
It's effective. The military is not going to leave it to chance.

The mistake is thinking we somehow are born with innate knowledge of how to 
lead, and therefore can just wing it.

Steve Jobs was not a born leader, he learned how to be one. See the book "The 
Second Coming of Steve Jobs". Ronald Reagan took an intensive course in
training 
how to present his ideas when he announced a run for the Presidency. Bill 
Clinton reportedly took 2 weeks off every year for a retreat which honed his 
presentations.

The trick, of course, is to take the right course.

Ivy is probably the simplest of all the ones I've seen. It also lines up with 
what I know works in business and personal relationships.



 Sep 07 2023



  parent reply surfcrone <surfcrone gmail.com>  writes:


IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze 
state



 Mar 22



 next sibling parent  "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz>  writes:


On 22/03/2024 9:58 PM, surfcrone wrote:

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already 
 seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state


What are you talking about?

We've just come out of a year long focus on maintenance.

DIP queue is open.

Named arguments has just been completed.

String interpolation merged.

UAX31 character ranges has just been merged (two more PR's to go for 
full UAX31 identifiers).



 Mar 22



prev sibling  parent reply harakim <harakim gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 22 March 2024 at 08:58:14 UTC, surfcrone wrote:

 IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are 
 already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep 
 freeze state


Hah! I can see why you think that to be sure. I just feel 
differently. Sometimes you have to slow down to speed up. By 
stabilizing the language, all the things D is missing will start 
coming into play like libraries, IDE support and so forth. A vast 
majority of tools and libraries built with D will not compile 
today so are unavailable. Imagine if you built a tool and it 

to rebuild old tools and libraries, you could work on new ones. 
That's what problem they are solving. Additionally, the editor 
issue is getting help with the language server and other things. 
I think if editions are done right, you will see D in the top 20 
tiobe index finally and that alone will give it a bump in 
popularity.
   I even think OpenD will be a good thing for D. Mainline D will 
continue to attract companies and people who want stability. 
OpenD seems to be moving towards a more modern entry-level 
approach with a single tool to do everything and including tons 
of libraries from the get-go. The cross pollination is going to 
be hard to compete with. Adam Ruppe is one of the best developers 
I know and the Mainline D language has some of the brightest 
minds in language development. In short, I have never been more 
excited about D!



 Mar 22



  parent  Carl Sturtivant <sturtivant gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 03:22:49 UTC, harakim wrote:

 Sometimes you have to slow down to speed up. By stabilizing the 
 language, all the things D is missing will start coming into 
 play like libraries, IDE support and so forth.


+1


 A vast majority of tools and libraries built with D will not 
 compile today so are unavailable. Imagine if you built a tool 

 constantly needing to rebuild old tools and libraries, you 
 could work on new ones. That's what problem they are solving.


+1


 I even think OpenD will be a good thing for D. Mainline D will 
 continue to attract companies and people who want stability. 
 OpenD seems to be moving towards a more modern entry-level 
 approach with a single tool to do everything and including tons 
 of libraries from the get-go.


+1


 The cross pollination is going to be hard to compete with.


+1



 Mar 24



prev sibling next sibling parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

 During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the 
 presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in 
 poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much 
 speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing 
 the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed 
 advertisements.

 If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
 all this publicity,


Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

I mean you really think that?

You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the conclusion 
that training the DLF people for free and sending Saeed 
(spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach new 
customers?

***mind blowing***



 Sep 04 2023



 next sibling parent  user1234 <user1234 12.de>  writes:


On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 22:39:53 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

 During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the 
 presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in 
 poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much 
 speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing 
 the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching 
 interspersed advertisements.

 If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need 
 all this publicity,


 Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

 I mean you really think that?

 You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the conclusion 
 that training the DLF people for free and sending Saeed 
 (spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach new 
 customers?

 ***mind blowing***


That reminds me, 3 years ago, when I didn't achieve anything in 
life and was so toxic because of that. At some point I insulted 
everyone ;)



 Sep 04 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Adam Wilson <flyboynw gmail.com>  writes:


On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 22:39:53 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

 I mean you really think that?

 You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the conclusion 
 that training the DLF people for free and sending Saeed 
 (spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach new 
 customers?

 ***mind blowing***


Even if that's why they were there I thought it was acceptable 
and within the norms of programming conferences. It's no 
different than Symmetry getting their name plastered all over the 
place at the conference. And I've been to plenty of conferences 
that were *far* more "commercialized" than this was.

My personal view of IVY was more along the lines of mild 
bemusement. If you understand what it is and what it's doing then 
you probably don't need it and find the entire concept to be a 
somewhat overwrought version of "Know thyself". It's a tool that 
has utility to people who've never done anything like it before. 
If it helps DLF, it's no skin off my nose. But  it's certainly 
not a cult.



 Sep 10 2023



  parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 08:57:37 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 22:39:53 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

 I mean you really think that?

 You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the 
 conclusion that training the DLF people for free and sending 
 Saeed (spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach 
 new customers?

 ***mind blowing***


 Even if that's why they were there I thought it was acceptable 
 and within the norms of programming conferences.


They could have just spent the money on youtube ads, reached 10x 
as many people and targeted people who actually might be 
interested in it.



 My personal view of IVY was more along the lines of mild 
 bemusement. If you understand what it is and what it's doing 
 then you probably don't need it and find the entire concept to 
 be a somewhat overwrought version of "Know thyself". It's a 
 tool that has utility to people who've never done anything like 
 it before. If it helps DLF, it's no skin off my nose. But  it's 
 certainly not a cult.


Tbh the presentation seemed lacking in substance to me. "The 
truth about D" was not an accurate name for the talk and there 
was no real explanation of how IVY would help D. Thats actually 
what people wanted to know, how is IVY going to help D.

I think most people are still non the wiser on that point.



 Sep 10 2023



  parent reply Adam Wilson <flyboynw gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 10:32:52 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 They could have just spent the money on youtube ads, reached 
 10x as many people and targeted people who actually might be 
 interested in it.


Possible but unlikely TBH. Ads are a terrible tool for this. The 
better argument would be "spend the money to get a name like 
Scott Meyers".


 Tbh the presentation seemed lacking in substance to me. "The 
 truth about D" was not an accurate name for the talk and there 
 was no real explanation of how IVY would help D. Thats actually 
 what people wanted to know, how is IVY going to help D.

 I think most people are still non the wiser on that point.


IMO, the purpose of the presentation was to set-up the Hackathon 
day sessions, they made that pretty clear IRL, don't know if it 
came through on stream.

The titling and all that, it's marketing, the "D" part would be 
swapped out were it for any other language and the talk kept 
mostly the same. That's how these talks work. I've sat through 
many of them at bigger conferences. It's just part of the game. 
Getting bent out of shape over it is pointless.

When I saw the talk on the DConf schedule I briefly googled 
Ucora/IVY, read about it for five minutes, figured out what it 
was, and having correctly deduced what it was, I opened my laptop 
during the talk and was hammering away on ODBC stuff for the 
duration. I completely tuned it out until Mr. Colvin's most 
excellent question. But *that* is a totally different topic.

And frankly, it's not the only talk I tuned out, some of the 
talks held no interest to me, others I found really quite 
engaging. Mike Shah's students for example. Other folks have 
different interests, that's the nature of one-track conferences, 
so be prepared with something else to do, and be kind to others 
by sitting in the back. :)



 Sep 10 2023



  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 9/10/2023 8:35 PM, Adam Wilson wrote:

 And frankly, it's not the only talk I tuned out, some of the talks held no 
 interest to me, others I found really quite engaging. Mike Shah's students for 
 example. Other folks have different interests, that's the nature of one-track 
 conferences, so be prepared with something else to do, and be kind to others
by 
 sitting in the back. :)


The good stuff happens between the talks. The talks are meant to inspire 
conversation. Personally, I had a fine time meeting new members of the D 
community and reconnecting with existing ones.

I enjoyed giving my talk, too, and hope people found a few nuggets in it they 
could apply to their own work.



 Sep 11 2023



prev sibling  parent reply sighoya <sighoya gmail.com>  writes:


I don't see them as a cult and I like the direction DLF has 
chosen to be honest.
One of D's biggest critics was that it's features aren't stable 
and not deprecating code is the best choice so far.
The other main critic was that D is too buggy and taking the time 
to fix them is paramount to have a good user experience.

In my eyes, D contributors can even take another year for bug 
fixing before reintroducing features.

So all in all I'm proud of the DLF team & Ivy in what they 
achieved so far.



 Sep 10 2023



  parent  bachmeier <no spam.net>  writes:


On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 16:24:27 UTC, sighoya wrote:


 So all in all I'm proud of the DLF team & Ivy in what they 
 achieved so far.


I agree. Maybe what I find most disturbing is the hostility 
toward how the DLF has chosen to do its work. If they think it'll 
help, we should accept their judgement.



 Sep 10 2023