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digitalmars.D - Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D

reply Bo <bo41 bo0041.com> writes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/4etdnc/free_pascal_is_very_super_mega_ultra_underrated/

Ignore the part about Pascal and read the Post by matthieum:


 I have, for my company, been part of a group in charge of 
 exploring the criteria for the inclusion of new languages in 
 the company's set of supported languages.


Here are some of the comments:


 Note that we already rejected D because we did not find it 
 compelling enough. We are not looking for a 10% better 
 language; given the cost of adding a language (as alluded 
 above), which are much more linked to talent management than 
 technological issues, a new language has to:

 either cover an area that is ill-covered today (we added Python 
 in the last couple years for this, and Scala is being 
 prototyped for BigData analysis)

 or bring a significant benefit it aims at displacing an 
 existing language


This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last 
sentence... "bring a significant benefit".

And some other user his responds:


 D is now more of a research platform for Walter than anything 
 else.


Public image is very important ... Its not the first time 
stumbling on comments like this.
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent reply Craig Dillabaugh <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:42:25 UTC, Bo wrote:

 https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/4etdnc/free_pascal_is_very_super_mega_ultra_underrated/

 Ignore the part about Pascal and read the Post by matthieum:


 [...]


 Here are some of the comments:


 [...]


 This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last 
 sentence... "bring a significant benefit".

 And some other user his responds:


 [...]


 Public image is very important ... Its not the first time 
 stumbling on comments like this.


So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR 
problem?
Feb 12 2018
parent reply Bo <bo41 bo0041.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

 So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR 
 problem?


I have provided several:

* As stated the D its focusing the wrong group of developers
* Too much old baggage and regressions because of it
* Too much complexity from trying to focus on that specific 
group, who seem to see D as only 10% better and not worth the 
switch.
* Clear issues in the library that people keep stumbling upon
* Library issues
* Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database 
access, ...
* Just a long list that is known for years.

Very few with the resources are interested in actually fixing 
them and they prefer to focus upon BetterC. And discussions about 
DUB. What else can be said...

And most of the points mentioned above require such a big change, 
its never going to happen.

How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put forward 
a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and people 
move at random like headless chickens with the end result?
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent reply Ali <fakeemail example.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
 wrote:
 How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put 
 forward a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and 
 people move at random like headless chickens with the end 
 result?


Bo

why not try, for a change to show a positive attitude
you must of have heard of something good about D that brought you 
here

D, had a small community, so any contribution you make will be 
very visible and appreciated

betterC is not a bad initiative, and i dont think we have the 
right to tell others where to put their effort, its too bossy, 
and you wouldnt accept it for yourself

I believe the untold D one true calling, is to be a full stack 
language, used for both high level and low level programming, 
offering all the programming facilities in one coherent package 
.. it will take time to get this right

betterC fit well into this, in my opinion, by improving support 
for the low level parts of a program

There is no train that D, is trying to catch, so take your time 
with D, continue using the other languages you find more 
productive or commercial, and  give D 10% of your time

In that time, you can catch a bug, and issue a bug report
Write a missing library
Extend a library

Those are simple suggestions that should be feasible to anyone

Compiler hacking is not for everyone, and I know this can be the 
source of frustration for many developers, you cant change D, but 
dont let this consume you

Again consider my suggestion, just give D 10% of your time .. and 
use it for something positive
Feb 12 2018
parent Bastiaan Veelo <Bastiaan Veelo.net> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:35:58 UTC, Ali wrote:

 why not try, for a change to show a positive attitude
 you must of have heard of something good about D that brought 
 you here


[...]


 I believe the untold D one true calling, is to be a full stack 
 language, used for both high level and low level programming, 
 offering all the programming facilities in one coherent package 
 .. it will take time to get this right

 betterC fit well into this, in my opinion, by improving support 
 for the low level parts of a program

 There is no train that D, is trying to catch, so take your time 
 with D, continue using the other languages you find more 
 productive or commercial, and  give D 10% of your time


[...]


 Again consider my suggestion, just give D 10% of your time .. 
 and use it for something positive


All good points!

It seems to me the more D picks up speed, the more newcomers post 
here complaining about lack of motion. If only they knew...
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
 wrote:

 So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR 
 problem?


 I have provided several:

 * As stated the D its focusing the wrong group of developers
 * Too much old baggage and regressions because of it
 * Too much complexity from trying to focus on that specific 
 group, who seem to see D as only 10% better and not worth the 
 switch.
 * Clear issues in the library that people keep stumbling upon
 * Library issues
 * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database 
 access, ...
 * Just a long list that is known for years.

 Very few with the resources are interested in actually fixing 
 them and they prefer to focus upon BetterC. And discussions 
 about DUB. What else can be said...

 And most of the points mentioned above require such a big 
 change, its never going to happen.

 How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put 
 forward a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and 
 people move at random like headless chickens with the end 
 result?


Well the issues with Dub are not unrelated to libraries. I'm not 
sure the answer is to have more official libraries, which just 
adds more stuff to the list of things that Walter and Andrei 
don't have time or interest in handling.
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling parent reply welkam <wwwelkam gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote:

 * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database 
 access, ...


Why there should be one default OFFICIAL library for anything? 
Writing libraries is about choosing between different tradeoffs 
so no library satisfy all use cases. Also its ecosystem problem 
not language
Feb 13 2018
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
welkam wrote:


 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote:

 * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database access, ...


 Why there should be one default OFFICIAL library for anything?


because Business Developers wants it that way. they are... well... Doing 
Business, and they wants someone to maintain all the libraries they are 
using. for free, of course. and what can be better than to offload this 
burden to language developers?

almost each time we hear about "D should have XXX in standard library", it 
comes either from Business Developer, or from Business Developer in 
Disguise. 'cause they always want someone to work for 'em for free.
Feb 13 2018
parent reply Bo <bo41 bo0041.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 09:11:44 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 because Business Developers wants it that way. they are... 
 well... Doing Business, and they wants someone to maintain all 
 the libraries they are using. for free, of course. and what can 
 be better than to offload this burden to language developers?


... really? This is the attitude here.


 almost each time we hear about "D should have XXX in standard 
 library", it comes either from Business Developer,


The reason why people prefer official supported library 
functionality is because:

* Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike 
alternative unofficial solutions.

* Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar 
across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to get 
familiar with the language.

* Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the 
same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice.

Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql

No official library, some are not supported, some are duplicates 
with minor changes, no official API or standard... can go on a 
long time.

If your idea is that people need to sift past the junk each time 
and hope that the library they pick is still supported in 5 
years, your dead wrong. It does not work like that in any 
business environment. If you want a language to be adopted beyond 
hobbyist, you need to offer more then simply a language. 
Languages are a dime a dozen, well supported languages with a 
thriving eco-system that is a different market.

People seem to have it in their head that its a good thing to not 
have a lot of officially supported libraries. Well, from a 
business perspective it is simply not feasible to adopt a 
language, when it only offers, quote: "10% improvement", and the 
rest of the eco-system relies on those same (unpaid) people. 
People who one day can simply drop all support on  packages.


 or from Business Developer in Disguise. 'cause they always want 
 someone to work for 'em for free.


I have no problem paying as do a lot of people but do you hand 
over your money to projects where to attitude does not align with 
yours? I put money in several projects only to see no good come 
from it. I learn from my business mistakes.

Do i need a language that keeps pushing more advanced features 
while introducing regressions all the time. Or do i prefer a 
stable language with official supported libraries that is easy to 
learn for new employees and has no baggage holding it back. Pick 
one ... and guess what gets a language adopted by us.

I noticed after reading topics how there is a very clear group of 
people, with a real motivation to maintain the status quo. They 
have found their language and use any excuse to not gain a mass 
market audience.

Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a 
language D may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new 
people coming here and pointing out major and minor issues, then 
that exposure is useless and will only reinforce a negative image 
for the language. No point in putting time feeding trolls, time 
is money after all.

Zhù nǐ hǎo yùn! Wish you luck!
Feb 13 2018
next sibling parent rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 13/02/2018 11:45 AM, Bo wrote:

 
 Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a language D 
 may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new people coming here and 
 pointing out major and minor issues, then that exposure is useless and 
 will only reinforce a negative image for the language. No point in 
 putting time feeding trolls, time is money after all.


We like constructive reports. Most of the time however outsiders don't 
provide or willing to help with that.

Some of us do attempt at the very least to just ignore the 
non-productive ones, since it isn't going to help anyone here.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:45:00 UTC, Bo wrote:

 * Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike 
 alternative unofficial solutions.


This is where you're wrong.

Considering that D is an open-source language, nothing is 
guaranteed.

Neither is there any guarantee who works on what and the same 
people who works on the "unofficial libraries" might as well be 
the __same__ people who works on the "official libraries"... That 
is actually the case in many of the __popular__ "unofficial" 
libraries, that they also contribute to D itself.


 * Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar 
 across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to 
 get familiar with the language.


  I partially agree with this, but again history shows that D's 
official API sometimes isn't as reliable as other unofficial 
equivalents. There's just a lot of restrictions in how the API is 
designed in ex. Phobos, which is why new modules sometimes just 
gets frozen for an unknown time and/or gets completely abandoned.

That same issue can be said about some unofficial libraries, but 
in those cases it's usually just because they don't gather the 
attention they deserve and that is where I agree with your point.

Perhaps just adding unofficial libraries as official libraries 
would be the best solution.


 * Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the 
 same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice.

 Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql

 No official library, some are not supported, some are 
 duplicates with minor changes, no official API or standard... 
 can go on a long time.


My point above stands here too.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling parent Fred <xmen.cecep yahoo.com> writes:
When god (walter) create eden (dlang) the man (bo the biz 
developer) is very happy.
Man thinks he is in heaven.
Until man eat the forbidden apple(the ecosystem library, editor, 
tools).
Now man understand he is in hell.

Walter has created great language.
But this language is not first class( first choice) on those 
platform.
1. Windows : .net , java etc
2. Ios : swift etc
3. Android : java kotlin, no d
4. Linux : c java, may be d , etc

 From what i understand( i am very sorry if i am wrong). D almost 
get customer, well almost. Bo was happy with the language but not 
ecosystem.

For biz developer they expect very few bumps. This is normal.

So what can d-community do : create subforum so that they know 
the bumps so they can avoid them.
Ask what they are building (the general only), on what platform, 
what db, their background.
Tell them what library you use, workaround, platform compiler 
odds tell them how you succeed. Provide them short cut : general 
build files, code management, idioms, etc.
In short words : may be subforum for mentorship(can be free or 
paid). Separate from learn forum.

It lowers heart attack , hipertension, anger, and disappointment.



Today big companies like microsoft, apple create great languages 
for their platform AND partial supported language on other 
platform.
Eg : swift for ios is official, swift on win is community.

These language serve as honey because they give away for free to 
attracts us (the bee) so their product ecosystem (software or 
hardware) survive.

D will never be rival for these language on that platform. For D 
to survive it must be the only champion on a platform or at least 
one of champion. My best guess is resource limited platform or 
/and linux.

On those resource limited hardware platform, now, only 6 or 8 
language but no clear champion ( for me, c and cpp not a 
champion, but i will use them if no alternative. ).
I think betterc and nogc feature will make that happen. Lets hope 
so.



But for now all d-community can do is serve that specific company 
need for success, for their thirst of money. And hope their 
feedback to the community when they want to leverage their 
requirement such as library used, running platform etc.


Again i am sorry if i offend someone. Or i give you wrong info.
Feb 15 2018
prev sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Bo wrote:


 This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last sentence... 
 "bring a significant benefit".


tbh, the only *real* problem with D that i see is people who thinks that D 
(and D devs) should do everything to please "business developers". 'cause, 
you know, there is no sense in language if it is not used by Holy Business. 
of course, i've never seen the same attitude from the business side (there 
are some opposite examples, of course, but i'm talking about a big picture).

i absolutely cannot see how pleasing yet another business dev will suddenly 
do alot of good for D. but i surely see how pleasing business devs will do 
bad. even trying to please reddit crowd already did alot of damage ( nogc).
Feb 12 2018
parent reply Token <token dlang.dd> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:20:53 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 Bo wrote:


 This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last 
 sentence... "bring a significant benefit".


 tbh, the only *real* problem with D that i see is people who 
 thinks that D (and D devs) should do everything to please 
 "business developers". 'cause, you know, there is no sense in 
 language if it is not used by Holy Business. of course, i've


+1

D should recognize and embrace its nature as research 
platform/compiler enthusiasts playground favorite.
Feb 12 2018
parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:46:02 UTC, Token wrote:

 D should recognize and embrace its nature as research 
 platform/compiler enthusiasts playground favorite.


I think this is a really good point, and one that D should be 
proud of.

That is pretty much how I see D, and I really enjoy seeing how 
people 'play' with it. You get some really interesting outcomes, 
including this one I saw today:

"abc".repeat(1000).joiner.writeln;

https://forum.dlang.org/thread/nmewpndfcyvidcvxcxdo forum.dlang.org

Stuff like that comes from playing around.

But.. I would add.. that D already can (and already does) solve a 
great number of real world programming problems, while falling 
short of solving many others.

But modern day demands of programming languages are really 
complex, and getting more and more so by the day...as the world 
seeks to become more and more connected - and 'safer'.

Personally, I think C++ has more challenges to contend with than 
D, in terms of becoming a modern day programming language.
Feb 13 2018