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digitalmars.D - My two cents on what D needs to be more successful...

reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
Since a few months, I'm using D for all my command-line tools.

For that use case, the language and its standard libraries are 
really perfect, making it the best scripting language I know, 
completely exploding JavaScript, Python, Ruby, etc.

Now I would like to also use it to develop :
- web servers.
- connected desktop applications & games.
- connected mobile applications & games.

D could also explode the competition for these uses cases, but I 
think that first it would need to be more *equipped* and 
*branded* for this.


developers to leave the comfort of their current ecosystem, D 
would need :

* the following *standard* libraries :

   - std.database (connect/use MySQL/MongoDB/etc databases)
   - std.web (serve web data/files/pages)
   - std.audio (load/play/process/record sounds/musics)
   - std.image (load/show/process/record images)
   - std.video (load/show/process/record videos)
   - std.graphic (draw 2D/3D graphics)
   - std.input (get mouse/touchscreen/etc events)
   - std.ui (draw 2D user interfaces)

* a dedicated IDE, allowing to effortlessly 
open/compile/execute/debug a single ".d" file as well as an 
entire project.

* a soft-realtime garbage collector (like in Nim), which can 
progressively recycle the memory of a thread without blocking the 
whole application.

I agree that at the moment, all these developments can be 
possible through several third-party libraries.

For the web servers, vibe.d is already there.

For desktop applications, there is gtkd and dlangui.

And for mobile applications, maybe using wrappers for SDL and a 
fast hardware accelerated UI library like TurboBadger/Nuklear/etc 
would do the job.

And I know that several IDE are already available.

For instance, Coedit is a nice little IDE, despite its bugs and 
limitations.

So I know that D could get the job done.

But with some efforts...

And it doesn't feel immediately "equipped" for that...

That's sad, because I think D could be the best tool on the 
market to develop cross-platform connected mobile/desktop 
applications, including mobile 2D games.

And even if it is already the case, at least that doesn't *show*, 
even from the dlang.org website.

A more complete standard library, and a more appealing website (à 
la juce.com) which would clearly "sell" D's strong advantages 
over its competition, could be of great help.

Because the day when D will make it really *easy* to do these 
kind of developments, just by simply installing the standard D 
environment and reading a few tutorials on how to do 
web/console/desktop/mobile app/games on dlang.org, it will be 
very hard for other languages to compete with it...
May 20 2017
next sibling parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
This is the work I am related to or created myself.

- std.ui.windowing[0]
- std.ui.gui
- std.graphics.image[1]
- std.graphics.color[2]
- std.events[0]
- std.events.loop[0]
- std.audio
- std.sockets[0]

Any assistance to improving my work including[3] would be appreciated as 
I am slow.

[0] https://github.com/Devisualization/spew
[1] 
https://github.com/rikkimax/alphaPhobos/tree/master/source/std/experimental/graphic/image
[2] https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/2845
[3] https://github.com/rikkimax/ogl_gen
May 20 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
Exactly what I was talking about :D

Thanks for your efforts !!!

I'll download and test them right away.
May 20 2017
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 21/05/2017 7:51 AM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Exactly what I was talking about :D

 Thanks for your efforts !!!

 I'll download and test them right away.


Keep in mind that they are not on code.dlang.org for a reason, they are 
not ready for general use. So take a developers mindset if you use them. 
You will find bugs and you will need to fix them if you wish to continue 
using it.
May 20 2017
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 06:55:19 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 On 21/05/2017 7:51 AM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Exactly what I was talking about :D

 Thanks for your efforts !!!

 I'll download and test them right away.


 Keep in mind that they are not on code.dlang.org for a reason, 
 they are not ready for general use. So take a developers 
 mindset if you use them. You will find bugs and you will need 
 to fix them if you wish to continue using it.


Ok no problem :)
May 21 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Since a few months, I'm using D for all my command-line tools.

 For that use case, the language and its standard libraries are 
 really perfect, making it the best scripting language I know, 
 completely exploding JavaScript, Python, Ruby, etc.

 Now I would like to also use it to develop :

 [...]

 * a dedicated IDE, allowing to effortlessly 
 open/compile/execute/debug a single ".d" file


It's one of the basement of Coedit. There is the runnable module 
system as well as the support for DUB single file package. 
http://bbasile.github.io/Coedit/features_runnables.


 as well as an entire project.


Also supported by the same product. I would be sad to learn you 
missed this !
http://bbasile.github.io/Coedit/features_projects


 [...]

 know that several IDE are already available.

 For instance, Coedit is a nice little IDE, despite its bugs and 
 limitations.


(author here) I don't get much bug reports. Usually i find the 
bugs myself since i'm a hardcore user of the product. Don't think 
too much, if you encounter a problem then report it: 
https://github.com/BBasile/Coedit/issues
May 21 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
Coedit is actually by far my favorite IDE for D testing and 
debugging.

I liked it immediately after I saw that it doesn't need to create 
a project if all you need it compile and test a small D script.

I know I can create a project, but for tiny projects I don't use 
it on purpose, despite I personally prefer to have only one file 
per class, because projects tie the source code compilation to a 
particular IDE.

All my tools can be compiled with "dmd xxx.d", which is really as 
simple as it can possibly be.

I know that "dmd aaa.d bbb.d ccc.ddd ..." works too, but as long 
as my scripts are just a few hundreds of lines of code long, I'm 
ok with that.

My only concerns with Coedit are a few usability problems when 
editing the code.

By default :

* When I copy a block of code, I have to select it from the end 
of the previous line, or else the inserted code indentation goes 
wrong.

* When doing a find and replace, Coedit replaces the next 
occurrence despite I don't see it and I'm not sure I want to 
replace it, instead of the one highlighted under the cursor, 
which I'm totally sure I want to replace.

* A closing brace is automatically inserted at the wrong position 
and with a unwanted blank line if I put enter to insert a missing 
closing brace.

   I'm not sure, but I think the case is the following :
   {
       {
           {
           }<- editor bugs if I put enter to manually add the 
missing brace on the next line
   }

* The regular expressions are always enabled by default when 
searching text.

* When I change some preferences, Coedit only keeps them until 
the next restart.

I know that's really not much, but this bothers me enough so that 
I still prefer Geany for pure coding sessions.

Only after I've finished programming the core code and prettified 
it, I switch to Coedit to try compiling, testing and debugging it.

Except for these tiny annoyances when typing code, Coedit is an 
exceptionally good IDE, and I really like it a lot, that's why 
it's the only one I've mentioned.

I don't mind posting my usability remarks on your Github account 
if you confirm me that they can indeed be considered as "bugs"...
May 21 2017
parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 11:27:19 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Coedit is actually by far my favorite IDE for D testing and 
 debugging.

 I liked it immediately after I saw that it doesn't need to 
 create a project if all you need it compile and test a small D 
 script.

 I know I can create a project, but for tiny projects I don't 
 use it on purpose, despite I personally prefer to have only one 
 file per class, because projects tie the source code 
 compilation to a particular IDE.

 All my tools can be compiled with "dmd xxx.d", which is really 
 as simple as it can possibly be.

 I know that "dmd aaa.d bbb.d ccc.ddd ..." works too, but as 
 long as my scripts are just a few hundreds of lines of code 
 long, I'm ok with that.

 My only concerns with Coedit are a few usability problems when 
 editing the code.

 By default :

 * When I copy a block of code, I have to select it from the end 
 of the previous line, or else the inserted code indentation 
 goes wrong.


Indeed.


 * When doing a find and replace, Coedit replaces the next 
 occurrence despite I don't see it and I'm not sure I want to 
 replace it, instead of the one highlighted under the cursor, 
 which I'm totally sure I want to replace.


There's a checkbox that allows to activate prompts when a match 
is found.


 * A closing brace is automatically inserted at the wrong 
 position and with a unwanted blank line if I put enter to 
 insert a missing closing brace.

   I'm not sure, but I think the case is the following :
   {
       {
           {
           }<- editor bugs if I put enter to manually add the 
 missing brace on the next line
   }


This feature is still a bit dumb when you're in the middle of 
existing code.
When writing new code it works fine. It can be fully deactivated 
by the bye.
I encounter this issue as well but very occasionally.


 * The regular expressions are always enabled by default when 
 searching text.


It doesn't mean that you have to fill the search field with a 
REGEX. It means that you CAN type one but it's not a requirement 
! Plain text will be searched in a standard way, whatever is the 
state of the "Allow regex" option, which means "contains text" or 
"exact text" depedning on the "whole word" option.


 * When I change some preferences, Coedit only keeps them until 
 the next restart.


That would be surprising. Please open an issue for this or let's 
talk on IRC.


 I don't mind posting my usability remarks on your Github


You should really. My level of satisfaction is not universal. 
Without feedback it'll stay specialized for my own usage.
May 21 2017
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
Ok :)

Thanks for the quick answer !
May 21 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 * the following *standard* libraries :


Suppose I made a dmd distribution with my libraries pre-packaged 
(I already have libraries for most the stuff you listed)... would 
that work for you? Or must it come from the dlang.org site and be 
`std.` for it to count?

I have no interest whatsoever in being in the official standard 
library though. Of course, using my libs is pretty trivial... 
download one or two files and add them to your build command, 
done.
May 21 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 18:29:46 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 * the following *standard* libraries :


 Suppose I made a dmd distribution with my libraries 
 pre-packaged (I already have libraries for most the stuff you 
 listed)... would that work for you? Or must it come from the 
 dlang.org site and be `std.` for it to count?

 I have no interest whatsoever in being in the official standard 
 library though. Of course, using my libs is pretty trivial... 
 download one or two files and add them to your build command, 
 done.


I understand your point, but standard libraries come along with 
the compiler during its installation.

Let's suppose I want to use regular expressions and they would 
not have been not part of the std libraries.

I would have to evaluate several libraries from github, after 
having searches on forums whether some regular expression 
libraries are better or more successful, or better maintained 
than other, etc.

And I would be lucky to find a tutorial on this particular 
library.

Moreover I would have to download this library manually along 
with its dependencies, etc.

I know that's not that hard with dub-like tools, but this doesn't 
make things simpler, that's obvious.

Standard libraries exist for one good reason : they are the 
reference implementation that everybody use by default, unless 
they want something especially tailored to their specific needs.

So for newcomers like me, they make a HUGE difference, as they 
make my life simpler and easier.

All tutorials use them, whether they are on the official website 
or not.

Remember that I've programmed tens of years in C++, but just a 
few months of D.

So I don't know anything about how to make GUI, web sites etc 
with D.

That's new to me, and thus this gets me out of my "comfort" zone.

For instance a standard GUI library would have made my life much 
easier.

Just for the GUI, I've downloaded 7 libraries, and I've just 
evaluated gtkd at the moment.

Dlangui seems fine too, etc.

If D had a standard GUI library, and I didn't like its design, I 
could look for an alternative on github.

But at least my first GUI program already runs without having to 
evaluate anything, by simply reading the official tutorials and 
documentations.

For smarter people this wouldn't make a difference, but 
personally I need simplicity, especially when I have to decide to 
use a new language and learn its libraries to do what I can 
already do with my current language (C++ and Go in my case).

So I fully respect your opinion, and in my case, I would have 
appreciated to have a default GUI library, even if it's not 
perfect, and even if some better alternative could exist on 
github.

That's all I say :)
May 21 2017
parent reply thedeemon <dlang thedeemon.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 19:33:35 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I would have to evaluate several libraries from github, after 
 having searches on forums whether some regular expression 
 libraries are better or more successful, or better maintained 
 than other, etc.


No need to trawl github, just go to code.dlang.org and you'll 
quickly find what libs are available and which ones are actively 
maintained.


 So for newcomers like me, they make a HUGE difference, as they 
 make my life simpler and easier.
 I would have appreciated to have a default GUI library, even if 
 it's not perfect, and even if some better alternative could 
 exist on github.


And I would have appreciated if Middle East guys stopped fighting 
and made their region nice and pleasant as Switzerland. Or if 
folks of Sudan and Uganda made their countries as prosperous and 
convenient to live in as Singapore and Germany. That would make 
life simpler and easier, for many newcomers. ;)

You are exactly the 146-th person to come here and say "std lib 
should be richer, and more docs and tutorials should be written". 
Unfortunately there is no automatic tool to convert these 
requests and suggestions into reality without using a lot of 
manpower.
May 22 2017
next sibling parent reply handG <handG web.de> writes:
 And I would have appreciated if Middle East guys stopped 
 fighting and made their region nice and pleasant as 
 Switzerland. Or if folks of Sudan and Uganda made their 
 countries as prosperous and convenient to live in as Singapore 
 and Germany. That would make life simpler and easier, for many 
 newcomers. ;)


Germany - no no, the muslim (so called refugees) thugs, rapist 
and murders arrived here now.
Bad example!! Thanks america.
May 22 2017
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 11:29:33 UTC, handG wrote:

 And I would have appreciated if Middle East guys stopped 
 fighting and made their region nice and pleasant as 
 Switzerland. Or if folks of Sudan and Uganda made their 
 countries as prosperous and convenient to live in as Singapore 
 and Germany. That would make life simpler and easier, for many 
 newcomers. ;)


 Germany - no no, the muslim (so called refugees) thugs, rapist 
 and murders arrived here now.
 Bad example!! Thanks america.


This is totally off topic, which is why I split off the thread.
The percentage of such people with regards to all refugees is not 
worrisome when compared to the percentage of such people with 
regards to the people with German citizenship; see IMK Bericht 
2016 [1].
Also, considering the excellent solve rate of most (reported) 
crimes here, even if it were worrisome in the short term, there 
would be no need to be concerned with regards to long term 
effects.
Additionally, blaming an entire people for the actions of their 
government is ludicrous, especially since our own government 
happily assists with the USA government's drone murders (i.e. war 
crimes).

[1] 
https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2016/pks2016_node.html
May 22 2017
parent reply handG <handG web.de> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 12:29:13 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:

 On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 11:29:33 UTC, handG wrote:

 [...]


 Germany - no no, the muslim (so called refugees) thugs, rapist 
 and murders arrived here now.
 Bad example!! Thanks america.


 This is totally off topic, which is why I split off the thread.
 The percentage of such people with regards to all refugees is 
 not worrisome when compared to the percentage of such people 
 with regards to the people with German citizenship; see IMK 
 Bericht 2016 [1].
 Also, considering the excellent solve rate of most (reported) 
 crimes here, even if it were worrisome in the short term, there 
 would be no need to be concerned with regards to long term 
 effects.
 Additionally, blaming an entire people for the actions of their 
 government is ludicrous, especially since our own government 
 happily assists with the USA government's drone murders (i.e. 
 war crimes).

 [1] 
 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2016/pks2016_node.html


1.) we have no sovereignty (until 2099) over the us bases and 
HAVE to pay for them - that makes us a still occupied (by so 
called friends) country
2.) http://www.refcrime.info/de/verbrechen/karte/  -- 
https://www.unzensuriert.at/einzelfall
May 22 2017
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
I tried to send the message below via email. Couldn't reach all 
participants so I'll post it here:

====

Hi there, thanks for your participation in the D forums. As this thread 
has stepped outside the charter of the forum, could you kindly please 
take it either to private email or to a place where such discussions are 
carried. (We do allow the occasional "near" off-topic posts related to 
general computing technology under the "OT" label.) We've sent a similar 
message to the other participants. Thanks! -- Andrei
May 22 2017
next sibling parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 14:09:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I tried to send the message below via email. Couldn't reach all 
 participants so I'll post it here:


Sorry about the post just now, I did not see your message 
beforehand.
May 22 2017
prev sibling parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 14:09:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I tried to send the message below via email. Couldn't reach all 
 participants so I'll post it here:

 ====

 Hi there, thanks for your participation in the D forums. As 
 this thread has stepped outside the charter of the forum, could 
 you kindly please take it either to private email or to a place 
 where such discussions are carried. (We do allow the occasional 
 "near" off-topic posts related to general computing technology 
 under the "OT" label.) We've sent a similar message to the 
 other participants. Thanks! -- Andrei


Then, with all due respect, please remove these posts...

IMHO, they are so incredibly off-topic that I don't see why they 
should remain here to pollute the pages of a D language forum.
May 22 2017
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 20:49:22 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:


 Then, with all due respect, please remove these posts...

 IMHO, they are so incredibly off-topic that I don't see why 
 they should remain here to pollute the pages of a D language 
 forum.


The forum is a web frontend for a newsgroup server, which also 
has a mailing list interface. I think the NG server does support 
message deletion, and that may cause it to disappear from the web 
frontend, but it will still be in NG readers and inboxes.
May 22 2017
parent Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 5/22/17 8:21 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 20:49:22 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:


 Then, with all due respect, please remove these posts...

 IMHO, they are so incredibly off-topic that I don't see why they
 should remain here to pollute the pages of a D language forum.


 The forum is a web frontend for a newsgroup server, which also has a
 mailing list interface. I think the NG server does support message
 deletion, and that may cause it to disappear from the web frontend, but
 it will still be in NG readers and inboxes.


It does support that. When I used Opera for my NNTP client, I could 
actually remove my own posts (I would do this if I made a huge typo, or 
postd by accident). I don't think Thunderbird supports that (and Opera 
discontinued their client).

However, I think the web forum software doesn't obey those deletions. 
And it's so darned fast, I'm sure it picks the erroneous message up 
before deletion ;)

-Steve
May 24 2017
prev sibling parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 13:59:16 UTC, handG wrote:

 On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 12:29:13 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:

 On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 11:29:33 UTC, handG wrote:

 [...]


 Germany - no no, the muslim (so called refugees) thugs, 
 rapist and murders arrived here now.
 Bad example!! Thanks america.


 This is totally off topic, which is why I split off the thread.
 The percentage of such people with regards to all refugees is 
 not worrisome when compared to the percentage of such people 
 with regards to the people with German citizenship; see IMK 
 Bericht 2016 [1].
 Also, considering the excellent solve rate of most (reported) 
 crimes here, even if it were worrisome in the short term, 
 there would be no need to be concerned with regards to long 
 term effects.
 Additionally, blaming an entire people for the actions of 
 their government is ludicrous, especially since our own 
 government happily assists with the USA government's drone 
 murders (i.e. war crimes).

 [1] 
 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2016/pks2016_node.html


 1.) we have no sovereignty (until 2099) over the us bases and 
 HAVE to pay for them -


Those are reasonable consequences for an unconditional surrender 
and it's not as if we couldn't afford it. Not to mention that 
these bases have people living in them that often go out and 
spend their money in the surrounding communities, which in turn 
generates both income for the (native) people living there, as 
well as taxes that are used for e.g. keeping the infrastructure 
in those communities maintained.


 that makes us a still occupied (by so called friends) country


1.) That is not what occupation means. If you want to call it 
something, "observation with preemptive capabilities" would be 
appropriate.
2.) There are no friends in politics, only ever shifting 
allegiances.


 2.) http://www.refcrime.info/de/verbrechen/karte/  -- 
 https://www.unzensuriert.at/einzelfall


1.) Neither of those websites cite reputable sources (online 
media outlets are not a reputable source for crime reports, since 
they necessarily have to work on a "publish first, check only if 
harsh backlash occurs" schedule to remain competitive) for their 
data and are thus irrelevant as aggregators.
2.) With around 6000000 crimes (yes, that is 6 million) reported 
in the year 2016 alone in Germany, the around 270000 supposed 
crimes (and this number is not per year, but overall total) on 
the first of those two websites are below 0.5 percent: 
Statistical noise, aka not relevant.
3.) The 2nd of those two websites is specifically about single 
cases and is such utterly irrelevant for a statistical analysis 
(which is the only kind that makes any sense on this scale).
May 22 2017
prev sibling parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 You are exactly the 146-th person to come here and say "std lib 
 should be richer, and more docs and tutorials should be 
 written". Unfortunately there is no automatic tool to convert 
 these requests and suggestions into reality without using a lot 
 of manpower.


Don't worry I'm on that too.

Simply at the moment, I'm currently writing a D tutorial for 
total beginners, based on the materials I made to teach 
programming to my children.

As the theory and exercises are currently in French, I'll have 
translate them, which will take some time.

And now I'm also maintaining several open source tools.

As for everybody my free time is limited, but I'll do my best to 
test the future std libs, and help debug them.
May 22 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Since a few months, I'm using D for all my command-line tools.

 For that use case, the language and its standard libraries are 
 really perfect, making it the best scripting language I know, 
 completely exploding JavaScript, Python, Ruby, etc.


Glad to see you're happy with the language.

Let's break down each of these suggestions.


   - std.database (connect/use MySQL/MongoDB/etc databases)


I while I don't agree that the connection facilities themselves 
should be included (shipping C libraries has been a huge pain), I 
agree that some form of either ORM or standardized format of DB 
API should be in Phobos. Like SQLAlchemy, let's leave the 
connection to other libraries.


   - std.ui (draw 2D user interfaces)
   - std.input (get mouse/touchscreen/etc events)


I would like to point out that users of the languages you 
mentioned almost never use the builtin versions of these types of 
libraries (and hasn't maintenance of Swing been a huge time 
burden on the Java devs, I remember reading this somewhere). 
Python users use either Qt or GTK, not Tk.


 * a soft-realtime garbage collector (like in Nim), which can 
 progressively recycle the memory of a thread without blocking 
 the whole application.


This is possible, just needs a champion.


   - std.web (serve web data/files/pages)


There's a philosophical boundary here. There are many ways to 
make a web server, and there's no one right answer for every web 
problem. Standardizing one type of server seems improper.

Plus the below problem applies.


   - std.audio (load/play/process/record sounds/musics)
   - std.image (load/show/process/record images)
   - std.video (load/show/process/record videos)
   - std.graphic (draw 2D/3D graphics)
 * a dedicated IDE, allowing to effortlessly 
 open/compile/execute/debug a single ".d" file as well as an 
 entire project.


The problem with all of these suggestions is that the maintenance 
burden is so enormous that it would take a medium sized team of 
paid professionals. Let's take std.graphic as an example. To give 
a sense of the scale of the job, getting a cross platform 
graphics API is a task so large that it takes some of the largest 
corporations in the world (MS, Apple, etc.) to come together to 
make it happen. It's not so much a code problem as it is an 
organization problem. The result is OpenGL, an API that no one 
likes very much and literally no one understands.

So we would have to support OpenGL, because this has to work on 
Linux and OpenBSD. Next, you probably want to support DX 11, 
because that's what pretty much 99% of video games use, so that's 
another monolithic API that you have to incorporate into your 
agnostic API. Now how about DX 12? Because it's supposedly way 
faster, and if you're going after game devs, they tend to worry 
about speed. How about Vulkan? How about OpenGL 3 as well as 4 
because Apple abjectly refuses to upgrade for no apparent reason. 
Speaking of Apple, how about Metal? Oh, and we want to support 
mobile so don't forget about OpenGL ES, plus all its different 
versions that have to be supported for different phone platforms.

I cannot stress enough how difficult a task a cross platform 3D 
graphics library is.

It's the same thing for audio and video too. Just look at all of 
the different encodings and features ffmpeg supports.

No, best to leave graphics/audio/video to C libraries that 
already exist. Even if it's painful, it's more painful to copy 
their work.


 But with some efforts...


D is 100% community run and none of us get paid. Bringing 
something into Phobos doesn't mean that it gets more work (it can 
actually mean the opposite). It's gotten to the point where each 
module in Phobos ostensively has one or two owners who's 
responsible for its condition in order to spread the load.


 For the web servers, vibe.d is already there.

 For desktop applications, there is gtkd and dlangui.


In order to make the existing libraries standard would require

1. An API freeze. Not something that anyone in the community is 
willing to concede, not even Vibed.
2. Constant, time consuming review of every change, as is 
required by any standard library for QA. This is why ndslice is 
no longer in Phobos.
3. Tons of hours of work fixing the bugs that are present in the 
existing solutions before even considering merging them into 
Phobos.


 I agree that at the moment, all these developments can be 
 possible through several third-party libraries.


And that's the way it's going to have to stay TBH.
May 22 2017
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
Ok, I agree with what you say.

Indeed, it sounds logical to suppose that the developers of the 
best libraries in each domain won't probably accept that their 
work is adapted to be promoted to the status of standard 
libraries, just to keep the full control on them.

That's sad, because I still consider that D's popularity could 
improve a lot if it was also equipped "by default" to be a rapid 
application development environment for cross-platform connected 
web/desktop/mobile applications, but now I've clearly understood 
why this will never happen.
May 23 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply MGW <mgw yandex.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Since a few months, I'm using D for all my command-line tools.


I consider that D and phobos are quite ready for constant use. As 
for alternative libraries, I selected a way of integration with 
Qt. One Small example of my operation on Mac OSX, is mini IDE c 
use of Qt 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbvUJwShN_c
https://github.com/MGWL/QtE5
May 23 2017
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 07:33:04 UTC, MGW wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Since a few months, I'm using D for all my command-line tools.


 I consider that D and phobos are quite ready for constant use. 
 As for alternative libraries, I selected a way of integration 
 with Qt. One Small example of my operation on Mac OSX, is mini 
 IDE c use of Qt 5.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbvUJwShN_c
 https://github.com/MGWL/QtE5


Thanks for proposing this C++ wrapper.

Qt will get the job done, obviously, so at least now I can 
implement my GUI with ease.

C++ back to the rescue ;)
May 23 2017
prev sibling parent reply Guillaume Piolat <first.last gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 May 2017 at 05:52:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

   - std.database (connect/use MySQL/MongoDB/etc databases)


http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd



   - std.web (serve web data/files/pages)


vibe.d
http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd



   - std.audio (load/play/process/record sounds/musics)


http://code.dlang.org/?sort=updated&category=library.audio



   - std.image (load/show/process/record images)


http://code.dlang.org/packages/imageformats
http://code.dlang.org/packages/ae
http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd



   - std.video (load/show/process/record videos)


http://code.dlang.org/packages/ae
I sometimes process video with command-line pipes using 
https://github.com/p0nce/y4m-tools


   - std.graphic (draw 2D/3D graphics)


http://code.dlang.org/packages/ae
Check out its explanation 
https://blog.thecybershadow.net/2014/03/21/functional-image-processing-in-d/



   - std.input (get mouse/touchscreen/etc events)


Honestly you are better off with using SDL.
http://code.dlang.org/packages/derelict-sdl2



   - std.ui (draw 2D user interfaces)


http://code.dlang.org/packages/dlangui



 I agree that at the moment, all these developments can be 
 possible through several third-party libraries.


So we just need ranking in code.dlang.org?
May 23 2017
next sibling parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 So we just need ranking in code.dlang.org?


Again, I'm not saying that these libraries don't exist.

I'm saying that there are many alternatives to choose from, which 
is fine, but sometimes, not having to search, evaluate and test 
third-party libraries can be a benefit to the user of a new 
programming language.

It seems that I'm a good example of this kind of "dumb" 
programmer, who prefer to have everything already prepared.

Some people like to buy meat, vegetables etc, and cook all that 
to prepare lasagne or chinese food all by themselves.

Personally, my wife prepares these delicious dishes for me, and 
I'm perfectly happy with that.

Some people prefer that things are already prepared for them and 
immediately ready to use, some others don't, and prefer to do all 
the experiments by themselves until they have found exactly what 
is best for them.

Not everybody is the same, that's all what I'm saying.

And some of the programmers who try D might not like to take time 
searching for these libraries, and decide that D is not enough 
"operational" by their standard, whether it's true or not.

The problem is that all the people on this forum are by 
definition those who haven't rejected the D language for that 
reason.

I know at least two fellow programmers who tried it on my advice, 
and told me that "indeed D is nice but to do xxx it's still 
easier with yyy".

I tried to explained that with this post, and what could be a 
solution for that problem, but obviously that was pointless.
May 23 2017
parent Guillaume Piolat <first.last gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 22:14:22 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I tried to explained that with this post, and what could be a 
 solution for that problem, but obviously that was pointless.


Hi,

You'll find agreement here. I wasn't framing my answer as a 
criticism of your post, which I think is well balanced. The 
leadership believes in a larger standard library too.

I just wanted to increase awareness of the (sometimes 
outstanding) libraries there is in the dub registry, that can be 
used right now. Some of it are below the radar but worthwhile.
May 23 2017
prev sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd


So actually, the dub thing for mine is

http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master

the other was a third party thing that is now obsolete (and imo 
this shows one of the weaknesses of dub right now... the list 
order is just most recent explicit update and old things can't be 
removed afaik)


   - std.input (get mouse/touchscreen/etc events)


 Honestly you are better off with using SDL.


oh my simpledisplay does that too! and 2d/3d drawing. and 
combined with minigui does user interface (though minigui still 
isn't quite done)


I am tempted to package my stuff with dmd as a one-stop 
download... but idk if it is really beneficial since my stuff is 
so easy to download and use anyway with my policy of independent 
files.
May 23 2017
next sibling parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 24/05/2017 5:04 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd


 So actually, the dub thing for mine is

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master

 the other was a third party thing that is now obsolete (and imo this
 shows one of the weaknesses of dub right now... the list order is just
 most recent explicit update and old things can't be removed afaik)


They can be removed, but that means projects stop being built hence not 
wanting to remove them.
May 23 2017
next sibling parent reply evilrat <evilrat666 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 04:14:39 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 On 24/05/2017 5:04 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat 
 wrote:

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd


 So actually, the dub thing for mine is

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master

 the other was a third party thing that is now obsolete (and 
 imo this
 shows one of the weaknesses of dub right now... the list order 
 is just
 most recent explicit update and old things can't be removed 
 afaik)


 They can be removed, but that means projects stop being built 
 hence not wanting to remove them.


It is still better to move them to 'obsolete' category and hide 
from default list, showing only when user explicitly search 
including this obsolete stuff to request(tick mark, adding 
'obsolete' to search request or whatever) or browsing that 
special 'obsolete' category.
May 23 2017
parent rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 24/05/2017 7:10 AM, evilrat wrote:

 On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 04:14:39 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 On 24/05/2017 5:04 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd


 So actually, the dub thing for mine is

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master

 the other was a third party thing that is now obsolete (and imo this
 shows one of the weaknesses of dub right now... the list order is just
 most recent explicit update and old things can't be removed afaik)


 They can be removed, but that means projects stop being built hence
 not wanting to remove them.


 It is still better to move them to 'obsolete' category and hide from
 default list, showing only when user explicitly search including this
 obsolete stuff to request(tick mark, adding 'obsolete' to search request
 or whatever) or browsing that special 'obsolete' category.


To hide and to remove all together are two separate things, but I agree 
hiding older packages that are no longer relevant would be a good idea.
May 23 2017
prev sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 04:14:39 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 They can be removed, but that means projects stop being built 
 hence not wanting to remove them.


That old one hasn't actually even compiled for over a year - I 
still sometimes get bug reports that things don't build cuz of 
deprecation errors and it is because of that old package. There's 
nothing gained and some lost.

I think all packages without a push for over two years should be 
removed or reassigned to a new owner (make the dub name refer to 
a newer fork of the original git repo)
May 24 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 04:04:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd


 So actually, the dub thing for mine is

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master


Just wanted to say that I was glad you did this. It makes it that 
much easier to play around with your stuff.
May 24 2017
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 12:09:02 UTC, jmh530 wrote:

 Just wanted to say that I was glad you did this. It makes it 
 that much easier to play around with your stuff.


So you use the subpackages or try to use the top level thing? 
Also have you had trouble with the ~master vs tag thing?

dub just doesn't agree with my dev method at all.
May 24 2017
parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 14:49:28 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 12:09:02 UTC, jmh530 wrote:

 Just wanted to say that I was glad you did this. It makes it 
 that much easier to play around with your stuff.


 So you use the subpackages or try to use the top level thing? 
 Also have you had trouble with the ~master vs tag thing?

 dub just doesn't agree with my dev method at all.


I had only noticed it was on dub recently so haven't had a chance 
to play around with it that way. I had only used it the 
old-fashioned way.
May 24 2017
prev sibling parent aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 04:04:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 21:21:45 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 [...]


 So actually, the dub thing for mine is

 http://code.dlang.org/packages/arsd-official/~master

 the other was a third party thing that is now obsolete (and imo 
 this shows one of the weaknesses of dub right now... the list 
 order is just most recent explicit update and old things can't 
 be removed afaik)


 [...]


 oh my simpledisplay does that too! and 2d/3d drawing. and 
 combined with minigui does user interface (though minigui still 
 isn't quite done)


 I am tempted to package my stuff with dmd as a one-stop 
 download... but idk if it is really beneficial since my stuff 
 is so easy to download and use anyway with my policy of 
 independent files.


Actually the dub version is much easier/convenient for me. Ha ha
May 24 2017