digitalmars.D - D as a college language

Sjoerd Nijboer (23/23) May 04 2018 So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there

rikki cattermole (4/20) May 04 2018 I made this very argument during my own degree.

Sjoerd Nijboer (24/36) May 04 2018 Even with adoption, I think the exposure of D and its

bachmeier (14/20) May 04 2018 This is key. I don't know how much adoption there would be, but

rikki cattermole (6/26) May 04 2018 Teaching materials is easy to create.

bachmeier (6/9) May 04 2018 They are, but professional quality teaching materials are not
Russel Winder (18/25) May 05 2018 [=E2=80=A6]

rikki cattermole (6/22) May 05 2018 You're forgetting one crucial detail. The people making the decisions

Russel Winder (30/36) May 05 2018 [=E2=80=A6]

bauss (22/45) May 04 2018 The biggest issue is that there isn't much industrial work done

Russel Winder (40/65) May 05 2018 Perhaps this argument is used in some places, but it is not the primary ...

KingJoffrey (16/24) May 04 2018 Umm, that is completely untrue, as it is for pretty much any

Russel Winder (39/52) May 05 2018 What is the pedegogy here, what are the justifications.

KingJoffrey (22/61) May 05 2018 That the languages being taught to undergrads, must be pervasive.

Russel Winder (80/122) May 05 2018 Not needed. The language must be good and fit for purpose not necessaril...

KingJoffrey (32/50) May 05 2018 Come on, the difference between C and Java is far more than that.

Jesse Phillips (5/5) May 04 2018 I believe D has had the biggest impact on my programming skills,
Walter Bright (4/9) May 05 2018 I agree that D being a multi-paradigm language makes it ideal as a

Sameer Pradhan (16/29) May 08 2018 Walter,

Sameer Pradhan (52/75) May 05 2018 I thought it might help if I mentioned that I successfully used D

Marco de Wild (43/48) May 06 2018 I can actually kind of relate to this.

James Blachly (6/6) May 06 2018 For no other reason than to provide a fun data point:

bauss (2/4) May 06 2018 And they're well right about that.

Sjoerd Nijboer (28/43) May 06 2018 Defenately true. I learned some C at school, then some java, C#

Seb (6/15) May 05 2018 @ everyone in this discussion: you ask and answer the wrong

rikki cattermole (10/26) May 05 2018 The answer to that is simple:

Sjoerd Nijboer <sjoerdnijboer gmail.com> writes:

So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there 
seem to kind of assume programming languages don't evolve or 
don't get replaced by better ones.
Right now if you go to college you'll most likely get tought c++, 

industrial standards, they all have their drawbacks. And one 
drawback that looks important for teaching is flexibility in 
expressiveness.

 From my experience college students seem to have problems 
translating their often declarative thought process into actual 
semi compile-able code that runs in a given language.
Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming 
paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people 
declarative programming using D for a little and from there 
expose them to other programming styles in thesame language to 
lower the barrier of entry?

I think D could play a bigger role in education since its such a 
"clean" language that is flexible but doesn't have any real 
gotcha "features". Its also a language that could potentially be 
used over someones entire college career as the primary language. 
If this would be achieved there would be a higher income flow 
into the industry of young D programmers which will pollute other 
programmers with the D mind and featureset.

May 04 2018

rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:

On 04/05/2018 11:35 PM, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
 So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there seem to 
 kind of assume programming languages don't evolve or don't get replaced 
 by better ones.

 java for any comp sci degree. While these languages are industrial 
 standards, they all have their drawbacks. And one drawback that looks 
 important for teaching is flexibility in expressiveness.
 
  From my experience college students seem to have problems translating 
 their often declarative thought process into actual semi compile-able 
 code that runs in a given language.
 Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming 
 paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people 
 declarative programming using D for a little and from there expose them 
 to other programming styles in thesame language to lower the barrier of 
 entry?

I made this very argument during my own degree.

First we need adoption, then maybe we can start designing a course to 
help get them going.

May 04 2018

Sjoerd Nijboer <sjoerdnijboer gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:37:58 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
 First we need adoption, then maybe we can start designing a 
 course to help get them going.

Even with adoption, I think the exposure of D and its 
capabilities to teachers is too small for them to notice unless 
it is exposed to them as a new learning strategy for their 
students. After all, teaching is a difficult and time consuming 
skill and in my personal experience consumes almost all of the 
time a teacher has. Leaving very little time over for a teacher 
to explore new technologies such as D and design new courses 
around them. No teacher I know knows of the existence of D. And 
when I tell them they assume it is not important to learning 
computer science.

Therefore I was thinking something more along the lines of a set 
of free open source courses which use D to learn certain aspects 
programming and programming related subjects. That would most 
likely not draw in a lot of new programmers who start programming 
on their own. They tend to stick to the popular languages. 
Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new 
teaching material some material that is closely coupled to other 
material with a small set of technologies. Thus not forcing 
students to learn a new language every other course. I hope that 
that would invite teachers to use D as a language for learning.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:52:36 UTC, bauss wrote:
 To the one hiring the person with 7 years of experience seem 
 like a better choice, just because they generally have no idea 
 what D is and what it offers. They don't know that if you 
 program in D you can usually program very well, if not better 
 than most general Java developers __when__ using Java. All they 
 know is that they use Java and they're looking for the one with 
 most experience in that field.

 Until D becomes an industrial requirement, then it will not be 
 taught.

 That's why D is a hobby language.

Unfortunately true.
It just seems like a missed opportunity.

May 04 2018

bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 12:00:43 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
 Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new 
 teaching material some material that is closely coupled to 
 other material with a small set of technologies. Thus not 
 forcing students to learn a new language every other course. I 
 hope that that would invite teachers to use D as a language for 
 learning.

This is key. I don't know how much adoption there would be, but 
free, professional-quality teaching materials would make it much 
easier to adopt.

One way that I could see D getting its foot in the door is an 
intro course using Java or Python but where the instructor wants 
to devote a couple of lectures to low-level programming using 
pointers. D would be perfect for that due to the convenient 
syntax. Other topics like metaprogramming or memory management 
would also be reasons to use D.

I don't think the lack of industry usage is anywhere close to the 
problem posed by lack of teaching materials and instructor 
knowledge. After all, Scheme was widely used for decades, and in 
some places is still is.

May 04 2018

rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:

On 05/05/2018 3:14 AM, bachmeier wrote:
 On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 12:00:43 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
 Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new teaching 
 material some material that is closely coupled to other material with 
 a small set of technologies. Thus not forcing students to learn a new 
 language every other course. I hope that that would invite teachers to 
 use D as a language for learning.

 
 This is key. I don't know how much adoption there would be, but free, 
 professional-quality teaching materials would make it much easier to adopt.
 
 One way that I could see D getting its foot in the door is an intro 
 course using Java or Python but where the instructor wants to devote a 
 couple of lectures to low-level programming using pointers. D would be 
 perfect for that due to the convenient syntax. Other topics like 
 metaprogramming or memory management would also be reasons to use D.
 
 I don't think the lack of industry usage is anywhere close to the 
 problem posed by lack of teaching materials and instructor knowledge. 
 After all, Scheme was widely used for decades, and in some places is 
 still is.

Teaching materials is easy to create.
My response is the response I got from my institution.
It is industry usage which is the problem.

Nobody wants to take the risk without being able to point and say "they" 
are using it for some serious work.

May 04 2018

bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 15:22:17 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
 Teaching materials is easy to create.

They are, but professional quality teaching materials are not 
easy to create. Bad teaching materials are a net negative. The 
things I see presented in this forum, for instance, indicate that 
not many around here would not be able to teach a college class.

 My response is the response I got from my institution.
 It is industry usage which is the problem.

That depends on the institution and the goals of the class.

May 04 2018