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digitalmars.D - D Language Foundation Weekly Planning Session Update

reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Last week, in my post titled ['A New Era for the D 
Community'](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/avvmlvjmvdniwwxemc
u forum.dlang.org), I announced that Ucora had taken us through IVY, their
organizational development program, at no charge. In that thread and elsewhere,
the announcement received some positive feedback. I also saw some questions
raised and skeptical speculations made. I'll address the two biggest questions
here, and then I'll provide a short summary of our first concrete steps toward
the new era.


I said in the post that IVY is "a simple but innovative approach 
to workflow". Despite its simplicity, not one of us who 
participated in the program grokked how it could help us in one 
or two sessions. It took multiple sessions for the light bulbs to 
go off. It's one of those things that's obvious in hindsight, but 
might take a bit to get there. Given that, I expect that any 
attempt I make to describe it in a forum post would not be 
fruitful.

I can say unequivocally that IVY is not some sort of "consulting 
propaganda". We went through 15 sessions. Some of us were 
skeptical in the beginning, but that disappeared as we went 
along. We didn't spend 20+ hours of our lives mindlessly 
listening to nonsense. What we have learned is going to help us 
do things we were clueless about before. From our perspective, 
having seen the program firsthand, there's no doubt in our minds 
about that.

As we go along, you'll have more information available from your 
perspective to make more informed judgments about what it is and 
how we're applying it. It's not like IVY is Top Secret 
information. Our guest keynote speaker at DConf '23 is our IVY 
coach, Saeed Sabeti. His talk is going to be about IVY in the 
context of the D community. He and I are also discussing an idea 
to go beyond the talk with a special event at DConf that will 
bring even more clarity to those who participate.

Sometime soon, I'm going to start reaching out to regular 
contributors and easing them into the IVY concept. Then I'll 
reach out to semi-regular contributors and then start looking for 
new contributors, with a goal of transforming "semi-regular" and 
"new" to "regular". Non-contributors don't need to know what IVY 
is, but even so, I'll be happy to help anyone interested to 
better understand it even if they have no intention of actively 
contributing to our core projects. You can accept it or reject 
it, choose to apply it or not. But we expect that those who do 
accept and apply it will see benefits in their own workflow.

Let's leave it at this definition for now: At its heart, IVY is 
about communication. It's a means of aligning the goals of 
organizations and stakeholders by understanding the motivations 
of each.


The short answer: I don't know. That's what we're going to figure 
out in our new weekly planning sessions.

The longer answer: I have an idea about some of the changes, but 
when I wrote that post there was nothing concrete. At the end of 
this post, I can give you something concrete.

So given that, how can I be sure this is a new era for the D 
community? How can I claim that "this is going to be the most 
significant change in the D community in the 20 years I've been a 
part of it"?

Employing IVY is going to *completely change the way we operate*. 
That alone is such a huge change that it can't help but have 
major consequences. It's going to impact the way we make 
decisions, the way we interact with contributors, the way the 
community understands what's going on, the way we deal with the 
ecosystem at large, and impact us in other ways I can't predict.

What we're not going to do is start ordering people around and 
telling them what to do. This isn't about that kind of 
management. This is about bringing order to chaos, helping 
contributors identify potential contributions that best align 
with their motivations, helping D programmers at large understand 
where we're going, and generally bring more direction to the D 
project.

Whether you're a CTO at a company using D or a hobbyist knocking 
out code in your spare time, you need to have some confidence 
that the community, the ecosystem, and the language have a 
future, and especially be able to determine if that future is 
aligned with your goals. Contributors need to know that their 
contributions have value, and it helps if they can see beforehand 
that any potential contributions that align with our interests 
also align with theirs.

That's the sort of thing that this is all about. We aim to remedy 
the project management shortcomings we've been suffering from for 
a few years now. We're confident IVY will help us get there.


And that brings me to the update. We had our first planning 
meeting at 16:00 UTC on Friday, May 12, 2023. I'm not going to 
summarize this or any future planning meetings in the same way I 
summarize the monthlies and the quarterlies. I'm only going to 
provide updates about what was decided. I also won't be posting 
updates after every planning meeting, only for those meetings 
that resulted in something to update (e.g., a decision reached, 
or a plan of action made).

The following people attended this time:
* Walter Bright
* Martin Kinkelin
* Dennis Korpel
* Átila Neves
* Michael Parker

Ali, Iain, Robert, Razvan, and Mathias were unable to attend, but 
they're up to speed.

Our goal for this meeting was to establish the first steps we 
should take under our new workflow. We agreed on the following:

* The [vision document we published last 
year](https://github.com/dlang/vision-document) is "on hold". 
We're going to replace this with something else. I'll have more 
about that in a future update.
* We need to establish a set of high-level goals and the tasks 
and subtasks to achieve them. We have a solid set of data to work 
with thanks to the feedback I received from my Gripes and Wishes 
campaign. Over the next few days, each of us is going to think 
about our high-level goals, specific projects or tasks, language 
features, etc. that we'd like to see. The others will email me 
their lists and I'll incorporate them into the existing dataset. 
I'll publish it for all to see on Thursday. On Friday, we'll 
start the task of sorting through everything, establishing our 
goals, and prioritizing tasks. I anticipate this will take 
multiple meetings to achieve.
* We need a place to publish our goals and task lists so that 
potential contributors can decide how and if they'd like to 
contribute, and so that interested parties can see our progress. 
We agreed that our [GitHub projects 
page](https://github.com/orgs/dlang/projects) is the place for 
it. We all have homework to go through the documentation so we 
can dive in headfirst when we're ready to get going with it.
* Our future planning meetings will take place on Fridays at 
15:00 UTC.


Follow my planning updates. Keep an eye on the goals and task 
lists once they're published. Tell us when you think we're 
getting it right. Tell us when you think we're getting it wrong. 
Tell us your ideas. The planning sessions are not a replacement 
for the monthly and quarterly meetings. If you're using D in 
production, commercially or free, I'm happy to bring you into the 
quarterly meetings. And anyone is welcome to join us for one or 
more monthly meetings to contribute ideas and feedback.

We're serious about this, folks, but we need help to make it 
happen. If you'd like to pitch in, then just keep an eye out for 
the right opportunity. Some time, somewhere, a task is bound to 
pop up that aligns with your goals and motivations. Let me know 
when you see it.
May 14 2023
next sibling parent claptrap <clap trap.com> writes:
On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Last week, in my post titled ['A New Era for the D


I hope it works out well for D and all the people who make D 
happen. I dont really have time to contribute myself, but I am 
grateful that I have D in my toolbox when I need it.
May 14 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:


 I said in the post that IVY is "a simple but innovative 
 approach to workflow". Despite its simplicity, not one of us 
 who participated in the program grokked how it could help us in 
 one or two sessions. It took multiple sessions for the light 
 bulbs to go off. It's one of those things that's obvious in 
 hindsight, but might take a bit to get there. Given that, I 
 expect that any attempt I make to describe it in a forum post 
 would not be fruitful.

 I can say unequivocally that IVY is not some sort of 
 "consulting propaganda". We went through 15 sessions. Some of 
 us were skeptical in the beginning, but that disappeared as we 
 went along. We didn't spend 20+ hours of our lives mindlessly 
 listening to nonsense. What we have learned is going to help us 
 do things we were clueless about before. From our perspective, 
 having seen the program firsthand, there's no doubt in our 
 minds about that.

 As we go along, you'll have more information available from 
 your perspective to make more informed judgments about what it 
 is and how we're applying it. It's not like IVY is Top Secret 
 information. Our guest keynote speaker at DConf '23 is our IVY 
 coach, Saeed Sabeti. His talk is going to be about IVY in the 
 context of the D community. He and I are also discussing an 
 idea to go beyond the talk with a special event at DConf that 
 will bring even more clarity to those who participate.

 Sometime soon, I'm going to start reaching out to regular 
 contributors and easing them into the IVY concept. Then I'll 
 reach out to semi-regular contributors and then start looking 
 for new contributors, with a goal of transforming 
 "semi-regular" and "new" to "regular". Non-contributors don't 
 need to know what IVY is, but even so, I'll be happy to help 
 anyone interested to better understand it even if they have no 
 intention of actively contributing to our core projects. You 
 can accept it or reject it, choose to apply it or not. But we 
 expect that those who do accept and apply it will see benefits 
 in their own workflow.

 Let's leave it at this definition for now: At its heart, IVY is 
 about communication. It's a means of aligning the goals of 
 organizations and stakeholders by understanding the motivations 
 of each.


That's a lot of words not answering the question in the heading.

The most tangible parts of those paragraphs:

* 'IVY is "a simple but innovative approach to workflow"',
* 'not some sort of "consulting propaganda"',
* 'not [...] Top Secret information',
* 'about communication',
* 'a means of aligning the goals of organizations and 
stakeholders'.

I still have no clue what IVY is supposed to be. Your posts also 
don't make me want to know. The impression I got so far is that 
IVY is a whole lot of hot air.

I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, 
because telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product. It's 
what they're making their money with, so you can't just give it 
away for free. Fair enough.

But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the 
program free of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to 
experience the life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay? What 
does it cost? Is all this over-excited hype talk just an ad for 
what Ucora is selling?
May 14 2023
next sibling parent Theo <Theo gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 20:09:50 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 That's a lot of words not answering the question in the heading.


It's just a **proprietory** acronym for principles long examined 
in psychological/social/behavioural science.

Don't expect it to be explained here, otherwise some would lose 
their consulting fees.

But getting humans to act in syncronicity is an age old problem, 
and there are many ways that humans have come up with, to achieve 
that.

For some, it comes as an epiphany.

More often than not, you're really just trying to herd cats.

One could use religion, politics, philosophy, and any number of 
other mind altering strategies to get people syncronised.

Personally, I just want a programming langauge that does what I 
want it to do.
May 14 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 20:09:50 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:


 I still have no clue what IVY is supposed to be. Your posts 
 also don't make me want to know. The impression I got so far is 
 that IVY is a whole lot of hot air.

 I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually 
 means, because telling people what IVY means is Ucora's 
 product. It's what they're making their money with, so you 
 can't just give it away for free. Fair enough.

 But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the 
 program free of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to 
 experience the life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay? What 
 does it cost? Is all this over-excited hype talk just an ad for 
 what Ucora is selling?


I'm not saying more about it right now because it's pointless for 
me to explain IVY in detail in a forum post. It took us multiple 
sessions to understand how it's going to help us. I'm going to 
have one-on-one chats with contributors to bring them onboard 
because they'll need to know about it in order for all of us to 
work with each other more effectively. There's not a pressing 
need for non-contributors to understand it, but we'd still love 
them for them to over time.

Anyone who wants to learn more about IVY is welcome to contact me 
and we can set something up. I'll explain it in as many chat 
sessions as we need, and we don't have to pay Ucora anything. But 
I do want to focus on regular contributors first.

Ucora has put no restrictions on what we can say about IVY to 
anyone. Their business is built on D and they want D to succeed. 
Their Director of Organizational Development is going to be 
teaching people about IVY at DConf and has offered to continue 
working with us. Just as Symmetry is supporting us with financial 
contributions, Ucora is supporting us with their organizational 
development program. The sessions we completed were just the 
beginning of this relationship.

Look, I'm putting these posts out there to let people know what's 
going on. If they sound like "over-excited hype talk", it's 
because I'm genuinely excited. If it doesn't interest you, that's 
fine. I'm not trying to sell IVY to you. I'm trying to let you 
know that we're making a concerted effort to solve the problems 
we've been suffering from for years. IVY is just the tool we're 
using to do it.

When I put out the call for Gripes and Wishes, [you said the 
following](https://forum.dlang.org/post/rrwqvygxrgaitcvhoohh forum.dlang.org):

"I have no reason to believe that this new channel is going to be 
more effective than the previous ones. Also, I want my airing of 
grievances to be public, not neatly hidden away in your personal 
emails."

I'm publishing the feedback this week. On Friday, we'll start 
going through it all to sort it, prioritize it, and assign it. 
What we learned in the IVY program will help us do that more 
effectively.
May 14 2023
next sibling parent "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz> writes:
To me it sounds exciting.

It seems that it as a program has allowed for self reflection about 
yourself and others motivations on how to progress forward positively.

If I'm right, it sounds very much like its all about promoting 
motivation by therapy rather than waffle about methodologies.
May 14 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 15.05.23 04:59, Mike Parker wrote:

 I'm not saying more about it right now because it's pointless for me to 
 explain IVY in detail in a forum post. It took us multiple sessions to 
 understand how it's going to help us. I'm going to have one-on-one chats 
 with contributors to bring them onboard because they'll need to know 
 about it in order for all of us to work with each other more 
 effectively. There's not a pressing need for non-contributors to 
 understand it, but we'd still love them for them to over time.


Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post? Why does it 
need one-to-one chats to do that?

If I get invited to the backroom of the event, and I'm told my friends 
can't come with, I don't get excited. I get suspicious. Am I being 
recruited into a cult? Are my organs about to be harvested?

[...]

 Look, I'm putting these posts out there to let people know what's going 
 on. If they sound like "over-excited hype talk", it's because I'm 
 genuinely excited. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine. I'm not 
 trying to sell IVY to you. I'm trying to let you know that we're making 
 a concerted effort to solve the problems we've been suffering from for 
 years. IVY is just the tool we're using to do it.


I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal 
chats with you.

You do realize that I am a contributor. Not so much lately, but I made 
some solid contributions in the past. That makes me a prime target for 
your efforts, no? Get me back on board, motivate me to push D to excellence?

For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put 
another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.


 When I put out the call for Gripes and Wishes, [you said the 
 following](https://forum.dlang.org/post/rrwqvygxrgaitcvhoohh forum.dlang.org):
 
 "I have no reason to believe that this new channel is going to be more 
 effective than the previous ones. Also, I want my airing of grievances 
 to be public, not neatly hidden away in your personal emails."
 
 I'm publishing the feedback this week. On Friday, we'll start going 
 through it all to sort it, prioritize it, and assign it. What we learned 
 in the IVY program will help us do that more effectively.


Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.

If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead. 
But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
May 14 2023
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 5/14/23 22:49, ag0aep6g wrote:


 Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post?


Do you remember how many sessions it took for Mike and others to 
understand how IVY could help?


 Why does it
 need one-to-one chats to do that?


I don't know. Some human things are just like that.


 I'm told my friends
 can't come with,


There is something wrong here.


 Am I being
 recruited into a cult?


That exact joke was made... by me! :)


 I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal
 chats with you.


Somehow that sounds hurtful.


 You do realize that I am a contributor.


I always looked up to you and I am ever grateful. However, there are 
different ways of contributing and some behavior can be detrimental.


 motivate me to push D to
 excellence?


Erm? Isn't this all about exactly that? And you want it as you insist on 
trying to kill excitement?


 For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put
 another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.


I don't think it was IVY that did that.


 Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.

 If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead.
 But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.


Time can be wasted in multitude of ways.

Ali
May 14 2023
parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 15.05.23 08:24, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/14/23 22:49, ag0aep6g wrote:
 
  > Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post?
 
 Do you remember how many sessions it took for Mike and others to 
 understand how IVY could help?


It might have taken them long to understand how IVY helps, but Mike also 
said that it's "simple". So the basics should fit into a forum post, no? 
Just give us the core idea, or an outline of the program, something. If 
we don't see immediately how it helps, there can be follow up.


  > Why does it
  > need one-to-one chats to do that?
 
 I don't know. Some human things are just like that.


Nonsense. You might not be able to teach me to dance over e-mail, but 
you can give me an idea of what dancing is.

Suppose we are in a one-on-one chat about IVY, what would be the first 
thing you say to me? By refusing to elaborate in a meaningful way you 
guys are just making it seem super weird. As I said, you're not making 
me excited for it, you're making me suspicious of it.


  > I'm told my friends
  > can't come with,
 
 There is something wrong here.
 
  > Am I being
  > recruited into a cult?
 
 That exact joke was made... by me! :)


So you see where I'm coming from. Except you then got an answer that 
satisfied you, I presume. I didn't.


  > I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal
  > chats with you.
 
 Somehow that sounds hurtful.


Yeah, I'm not exactly trying to hide my resentment towards you guys. I 
don't have anything against you in particular, Ali, but since you've 
come to interject here you might feel some of my negative emotions 
coming in your general direction.

[...]

  > motivate me to push D to
  > excellence?
 
 Erm? Isn't this all about exactly that? And you want it as you insist on 
 trying to kill excitement?


I get that Mike is trying to spark excitement. I don't think the IVY 
posts are doing a good job at that. I'm telling you it has the opposite 
effect on me.

Mike: "Be excited about IVY!"
Others: "Yay! IVY! Woo!"
Other others: "What is IVY? Kinda sounds like hot air."
Mike: "It's not hot air. It's great!"
Me: "You didn't answer the question there. Still sounds like hot air to me."
You: "Don't be such a buzzkill."

Maybe I'm just a grinch trying to steal your IVY Christmas. But I don't 
believe that being excitable about nothing is a desirable trait for a 
programmer. You should not be selecting for that.


  > For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put
  > another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.
 
 I don't think it was IVY that did that.


Oh, but it did. The wall already had a good number of bricks, of course. 
But the IVY hype attempt and the poor reaction to negative feedback is 
adding one more.


  > Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.
  >
  > If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead.
  > But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
 
 Time can be wasted in multitude of ways.


I guess that's supposed to mean that I'm wasting time. And I guess 
that's true in a way. I should probably just walk away from D. But 
calling out Mike's non-answers felt right and still does. I regret 
nothing! :P
May 15 2023
parent Dennis <dkorpel gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 11:47:21 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 I guess that's supposed to mean that I'm wasting time. And I 
 guess that's true in a way. I should probably just walk away 
 from D. But calling out Mike's non-answers felt right and still 
 does. I regret nothing! :P


One thing we talked about during the meetings was the importance 
of 'psychological safety' for IVY. It's actually good that you're 
comfortable to make such a call out.

Many negative comments on the forum feel redundant and tiring, 
but not yours.
May 15 2023
prev sibling parent reply Dennis <dkorpel gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 05:49:42 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post?

 (...)

 I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in 
 personal chats with you.


IVY stands for "Ideal Vision of Yourself". There's an IVY 
statement for the vision of the organization, and personal IVY 
statements that characterize ambitions of contributors. They take 
the form "To become [...] by [...] so that [...]". After 
creating/discovering these statements, you assign tasks with them 
in mind, so people work on things they are intrinsically 
motivated to do (though there will still be "cleaning the 
kitchen" work that's not fun for anyone but has to be done).

Honestly, I think Mike has been over-selling it in the 
announcement. It gives the impression that everyone who attended 
the meetings was enlightened by the mind-blowing 'IVY' method, 
while in my experience, some of us have a more wait-and-see 
attitude towards it. I am glad that Mike is so enthusiastic about 
it, since he is leading the effort, but I think his words come 
across as fluffy corporate talk. I think the D community consists 
of many people like you, who are not impressed at all by that, 
and prefer concise and detailed communication instead.
May 15 2023
parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 15.05.23 13:59, Dennis wrote:

 IVY stands for "Ideal Vision of Yourself". There's an IVY statement for 
 the vision of the organization, and personal IVY statements that 
 characterize ambitions of contributors. They take the form "To become 
 [...] by [...] so that [...]". After creating/discovering these 
 statements, you assign tasks with them in mind, so people work on things 
 they are intrinsically motivated to do (though there will still be 
 "cleaning the kitchen" work that's not fun for anyone but has to be done).


Thank you.

So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" 
question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated ;)
May 15 2023
next sibling parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 On 15.05.23 13:59, Dennis wrote:

 IVY stands for "Ideal Vision of Yourself". There's an IVY 
 statement for the vision of the organization, and personal IVY 
 statements that characterize ambitions of contributors. They 
 take the form "To become [...] by [...] so that [...]". After 
 creating/discovering these statements, you assign tasks with 
 them in mind, so people work on things they are intrinsically 
 motivated to do (though there will still be "cleaning the 
 kitchen" work that's not fun for anyone but has to be done).


 Thank you.

 So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five 
 years?" question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated ;)


LOL it went from "hot air" to "much more sophisticated" very 
quickly.
May 15 2023
parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:45:03 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:


[...]

 So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five 
 years?" question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated 
 ;)


 LOL it went from "hot air" to "much more sophisticated" very 
 quickly.


Yeah, hype about nothing is just hot air. Hype about something is 
possibly not just hot air. I think that's a reasonable stance.

Also, don't forgot about the winky smiley. That winky smiley is 
important.
May 15 2023
parent WinkySmiley <WinkySmiley gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 14:42:36 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 ...
 Yeah, hype about nothing is just hot air. Hype about something 
 is possibly not just hot air. I think that's a reasonable 
 stance.

 Also, don't forgot about the winky smiley. That winky smiley is 
 important.


Don't be fooled.

The self is just one of many 'weird entities' that arise from the 
activity of the mind.

These 'entities' owe there existence solely to the activity of 
the mind.

If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.
May 15 2023
prev sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:


 So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five 
 years?" question.


It's deeper than that. And that's why I didn't want to say 
anything about the details of it in a forum post. All of us had 
the wrong first impression when we started the program. It takes 
a bit of self-reflection to discover your IVY statement. And I 
use "discover" intentionally. It's not a matter of pondering 
where you see yourself in the future. It's a process of 
understanding what motivates you on the path you're following 
*now*.
May 15 2023
parent reply WilliamJames <WilliamJames gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 15:40:29 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:


 So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five 
 years?" question.


 It's deeper than that. And that's why I didn't want to say 
 anything about the details of it in a forum post. All of us had 
 the wrong first impression when we started the program. It 
 takes a bit of self-reflection to discover your IVY statement. 
 And I use "discover" intentionally. It's not a matter of 
 pondering where you see yourself in the future. It's a process 
 of understanding what motivates you on the path you're 
 following *now*.


An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the 
concept of an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that 
the way out of it, is to keep as busy as we can thinking of 
things and of other people, or preoccupied with a constructive 
passion of some kind.

In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious egotism.
May 15 2023
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 5/15/23 15:55, WilliamJames wrote:

Earlier you said:


 If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.


And everything exists in my mind anyway.[1]


 An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the concept of
 an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that the way out of it,
 is to keep as busy as we can thinking of things and of other people, or
 preoccupied with a constructive passion of some kind.


Since I make everything, that's exactly what I am doing all the time anyway.


 In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious egotism.


However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and motivation 
gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.

I've always found motivation a magical thing: I never know when it comes 
and how. There has been times where I was very motivated, taking tasks 
and running with them. Other times, I am not motivated at all. I know 
and research confirms you can't buy motivation, you can't ask someone to 
be motivated, etc.

I took IVY to be an attempt at explaining where motivation comes from. 
It defines the concept of "ideal vision of yourself". It argues that 
every person has a vision of themselves. When their activities align 
with that vision, they are motivated and things happen.

A big challenge is discovering that vision of one's self. The same thing 
happens with the organization: It has a vision as well and it is 
difficult to define. And then there are the "customers". They have a 
vision as well.

Like a Venn diagram, the three visions intersect. There are different 
outcomes expected at each intersecting area. The best place is at the 
center where all three visions are aligned. Then we have happy and 
successful people, organization, and customers.

That's what I understood of IVY.

And that ties into goals and tasks. That's how IVY is supposed to help 
with organizations. I am confident we will take advantage of IVY.

Ali

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
May 15 2023
next sibling parent reply WilliamJames <WilliamJames gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/15/23 15:55, WilliamJames wrote:

 Earlier you said:


 If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.


 And everything exists in my mind anyway.[1]


Some things exist in the mind, and some things are a product of 
the mind.

There is a difference.

The fundamental principles of computing, programming, and pretty 
much anything based on science, can 'exist' in the mind, in that, 
they've entered our stream of consciousness somehow (most likely 
because our biological 'self' already knows these principles, and 
occassionaly they enter our own stream of consciousness through 
some mysterious way, and we simply become aware of them. You'd be 
amazed at the knowledge our biological self has, and how little 
of it enters our stream of consciousness.

Then there are things that are the product of the mind. That is 
where the 'self' comes from. It's arises out of the activity of 
the mind (so it's a product of that activity, not something 
intrinsic in itself). You can make the self disappear through the 
activity of your mind also ;-)


 An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the


 concept of

 an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that the way


 out of it,

 is to keep as busy as we can thinking of things and of other


 people, or

 preoccupied with a constructive passion of some kind.


 Since I make everything, that's exactly what I am doing all the 
 time anyway.


You're lucky. Most people are blindless zombies, like those stuck 
in the matrix.

That's not necessarily a bad thing by the way. But in some 
circumstance, it' not ideal, as history tells us.


 In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious


 egotism.

 However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and 
 motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.

 I've always found motivation a magical thing: I never know when 
 it comes and how. There has been times where I was very 
 motivated, taking tasks and running with them. Other times, I 
 am not motivated at all. I know and research confirms you can't 
 buy motivation, you can't ask someone to be motivated, etc.
 I took IVY to be an attempt at explaining where motivation 
 comes from. It defines the concept of "ideal vision of 
 yourself". It argues that every person has a vision of 
 themselves. When their activities align with that vision, they 
 are motivated and things happen.


Again, the self is a well studied concept. But it remains a 
polysemous concept, and seems to be more an area for philosophy 
than psychology - much like the concept of consciousness. As 
such, IVY could well backfire in the D community, since not 
everyone agrees that there is a self, or that it should be as 
important in ones daily life as some want you to believe. You 
might be more free, for example, if you rid yourself of the 
concept of self. But I divert...


 A big challenge is discovering that vision of one's self. The 
 same thing happens with the organization: It has a vision as 
 well and it is difficult to define. And then there are the 
 "customers". They have a vision as well.


'vision' is the right word here ;-)


 Like a Venn diagram, the three visions intersect. There are 
 different outcomes expected at each intersecting area. The best 
 place is at the center where all three visions are aligned. 
 Then we have happy and successful people, organization, and 
 customers.

 That's what I understood of IVY.
 And that ties into goals and tasks. That's how IVY is supposed 
 to help with organizations. I am confident we will take 
 advantage of IVY.


fallibilism : the principle that propositions concerning 
empirical knowledge can be accepted even though they cannot be 
proved with certainty.

Really, I just want an announcement for when D3 will arrive, and 
whether it will have the features I want. I don't much care about 
whether people are developing a better vision of themselves ;-)
May 15 2023
parent reply Abdulhaq <alynch4048 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 05:46:23 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:
  As

 such, IVY could well backfire in the D community, since not 
 everyone agrees that there is a self, or that it should be as 
 important in ones daily life as some want you to believe


And the award for the whackiest criticism of D management goes to 
.....
May 16 2023
parent reply WilliamJames <WilliamJames gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 11:14:23 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 05:46:23 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:
  As

 such, IVY could well backfire in the D community, since not 
 everyone agrees that there is a self, or that it should be as 
 important in ones daily life as some want you to believe


 And the award for the whackiest criticism of D management goes 
 to .....


So the whackiest..thing... was not something I started ;-)

Telling people the D was off to a grand new beginning, cause 
people were going to find a better vision of them themselves... 
that was the whackiest thing.

It's one thing to find ways to motivate oneself. If IVY works for 
you, that is great.. I guess.

But announcing IVY to the D community as the messiah-like 
stratedgy for taking D forward.... sounded more (to me at least) 
like a cult was forming.

And yet, you direct your criticism towards me ??
May 16 2023
next sibling parent reply Abdulhaq <alynch4048 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 22:17:13 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 11:14:23 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 05:46:23 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:





 And yet, you direct your criticism towards me ??


It's not intended as a criticism of any person, but thinking 
about it I can see how you might take it as such.

Seriously though, over the years Mike has demonstrated he's a 
very solid and sensible person. We should give him the benefit of 
the doubt. I know that you know this, but successful project 
management depends on more than assigning bug fix tickets, the 
soft stuff is very important too.
May 17 2023
parent reply Guillaume Piolat <first.last spam.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 11:26:41 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 Seriously though, over the years Mike has demonstrated he's a 
 very solid and sensible person.


Exactly my thoughts. I'm as sceptic as the next person, but heck 
this is coming from Mike.
May 17 2023
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 12:52:03 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 11:26:41 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 Seriously though, over the years Mike has demonstrated he's a 
 very solid and sensible person.


 Exactly my thoughts. I'm as sceptic as the next person, but 
 heck this is coming from Mike.


Thanks, guys. I promise I'm not selling all my possessions and 
running off to a hilltop to await the end of the world.

I *am* excited about IVY, but only as a means to an end. What I'm 
*more* excited about is that we're finally making a concerted 
effort to organize and manage the D project. That's what I wanted 
everyone to take away from my initial announcement, and I 
expected that would be the big news. I was surprised by all the 
focus on IVY.

It's not magic or fluff. It's not some miracle. It's a tool. 
We're the ones who have to do the work. This just helps us see a 
way forward to get it done.

I stand by what I said earlier. I simply cannot express in a 
forum post what I've taken away from the program. Every single 
one of us who participated had a first impression that was wrong, 
and it took several sessions to get through that. Speaking for 
myself, I heard what Saeed was telling us, but I didn't see how 
it could really help us. Once I got over the hump, it made much 
more sense, and the rest of the program was just reinforcement. I 
thought Dennis had gotten to the same place by the end. I see now 
he hasn't, but he's still willing to give it a go.

IVY is more than just vision statements. It's a mindset, a shift 
in perspective. Some people will "get it", some won't. And that's 
fine. I didn't even want to use the words "vision statement" just 
yet, as there are other programs out there that use the same 
terminology. IVY is not like those programs.

The more contributors who get it, the better, as it will make it 
easier for us to collaborate. But we can still work with people 
who don't get it, or who don't want to. So it's not going to bar 
anyone from contributing if they want nothing to do with it.

What it comes down to at its core is communication. That's the 
heart of it.

I promise, everyone will learn more about IVY as we go along. I 
just want to speak to some regular contributors about it first so 
we can get down to business with it sooner rather than later, and 
so I can see if my approach to explaining it works. If they get 
it, then they can help me help others get it. And as I write 
about the work we're doing in the coming weeks, I'll be throwing 
in some details about how we're employing IVY so that people can 
get an idea of what it looks like in action.

I'm going to hang out in BeerConf a bit this month. While I'm 
there, I'm happy to answer any questions about IVY and how we're 
employing it. It's much easier to communicate what it is in a 
real-time context than in the forums. And my offer still stands 
to chat about it with anyone who's interested.
May 17 2023
next sibling parent reply Don Allen <donaldcallen gmail.com> writes:
Perhaps I've missed it, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned in 
this discussion about improving the management of the D project 
is that perhaps *the* most important aspect of management is 
leadership, particularly in a volunteer project like D where 
peoples' livelihoods don't depend on doing what they are told. If 
you don't have that, then any improvements in tactical management 
will be moot.

By leadership I mean that the top management of the project 
conveys a clear message of where the project is heading *and* the 
message is convincing to most of the people who will actually do 
the work.

In addition to the IVY experiment, I'd suggest looking at 
successful projects as examples. I've cited OpenBSD in past 
messages to this forum. Take a look at the tech openbsd.org 
mailing list and the way de Raadt interacts with the other 
OpenBSD developers. It's an example of the kind of leadership I'm 
talking about. There are many ways to achieve this and while de 
Raadt is frequently abusive to people he thinks don't matter to 
his project, he's clear, firm and convincing in setting the 
direction for those who do.

There are other successful projects run in stylistically 
different ways than OpenBSD that could be useful examples to the 
D project.
May 17 2023
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 15:30:59 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

 By leadership I mean that the top management of the project 
 conveys a clear message of where the project is heading *and* 
 the message is convincing to most of the people who will 
 actually do the work.


The aim of our planning sessions right now is to lay the 
groundwork. We want to clearly define our immediate goals and 
establish an initial set of concrete goals for the future so that 
everyone can see what we're doing and where want want to go.

And yes, I know there's a lot more to it that, but that's where 
we're starting. Everything else builds on top of it.
May 17 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 14:56:15 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:


 I *am* excited about IVY, but only as a means to an end. What 
 I'm *more* excited about is that we're finally making a 
 concerted effort to organize and manage the D project. That's 
 what I wanted everyone to take away from my initial 
 announcement, and I expected that would be the big news.


FWIW, that's what I took from your announcement. I viewed the 
statement about IVY as "we're using this internally and hopefully 
it helps" but not as something I should care about much as a user 
of the language. I saw your post as signalling an attempt to get 
a grip on managing the project - something that's tough to do in 
this type of organization.
May 17 2023
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 17.05.23 16:56, Mike Parker wrote:

 I thought Dennis had gotten to the same place by the 
 end. I see now he hasn't, but he's still willing to give it a go.


Dennis has been part of the 14-week group, right? He's been exposed to 
the same amount of IVY in the same manner as you. Still, in your 
opinion, he didn't "get it" (yet). How many people participated, and how 
many "got it"? What's IVY's "success" rate?

My impression of Dennis is that he's competent and communicates well. I 
don't remember his ego getting in the way of things. I can't speak that 
well of some bigger names in D land. (Yeah, I'm being petty and holding 
a grudge.)

Of the people that I know participated (you, Dennis, Ali, and I'm 
assuming Walter, Atila, Andrei(?)), I trust Dennis's judgment the most. 
Him not being particularly excited by IVY suggests to me that it might 
not be the greatest thing since chocolate was invented. On the other 
hand, he doesn't seem particularly alarmed by it either. Which is a good 
thing.

Of course, it's easy for me to praise Dennis now. I already know his 
opinion of IVY aligns more with my (uninformed) one. But I like to think 
that I would have put him on top of that list anyway.


 IVY is more than just vision statements. It's a mindset, a shift in 
 perspective. Some people will "get it", some won't. And that's fine.


[...]

 The more contributors who get it, the better, as it will make it easier 
 for us to collaborate. But we can still work with people who don't get 
 it, or who don't want to. So it's not going to bar anyone from 
 contributing if they want nothing to do with it.


The way you talk about it still rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I'm too 
eagerly trying to find something wrong, but it just reminds me so much 
of empty con man talk, and your refusal to engage here is so much not 
helping.


 What it comes down to at its core is communication. That's the heart of it.


Yet you refuse to communicate in the established channel. You insist on 
communicating in a way that better suits you, a way that is less 
transparent.

I guess it comes down to this: You're not going to communicate publicly 
(because you're afraid of giving the wrong impression to 3rd parties), 
and I'm not going to communicate privately (because I like to be a pain 
in your behind). So we're at an impasse. We both refuse to move and 
that's it.


 I promise, everyone will learn more about IVY as we go along. I just 
 want to speak to some regular contributors about it first so we can get 
 down to business with it sooner rather than later, and so I can see if 
 my approach to explaining it works. If they get it, then they can help 
 me help others get it. And as I write about the work we're doing in the 
 coming weeks, I'll be throwing in some details about how we're employing 
 IVY so that people can get an idea of what it looks like in action.


Maybe in a couple of weeks it will all make perfect sense. Until then I 
will put IVY away as irrelevant to me. The only actual information I've 
got is from Dennis, and from that it doesn't seem like something I'd be 
down for.


 I'm going to hang out in BeerConf a bit this month. While I'm there, I'm 
 happy to answer any questions about IVY and how we're employing it. It's 
 much easier to communicate what it is in a real-time context than in the 
 forums. And my offer still stands to chat about it with anyone who's 
 interested.


I strongly dislike that you refuse to do that here.

I don't care for DConf or BeerConf. I haven't participated and I'm not 
going to. I don't think I've even watched one whole DConf talk ever.

If you guys want to be social, be social. I'm not trying to take that 
away from you. But if you make those social events mandatory, you're 
pushing me further away. If the only way to get information about a new 
big development in D land is to chat with you, or to participate in the 
Confs, then I'm not going to get it.
May 17 2023
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 5/17/23 12:57, ag0aep6g wrote:


 Of the people that I know participated (you, Dennis, Ali, and I'm
 assuming Walter, Atila, Andrei(?)), I trust Dennis's judgment the most.
 Him not being particularly excited by IVY suggests to me that it might
 not be the greatest thing since chocolate was invented.


For the record, I've never indicated here whether I was excited about 
IVY or not.

Ali
May 17 2023
parent Theo <Theo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 03:07:59 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 For the record, I've never indicated here whether I was excited 
 about IVY or not.

 Ali


It's easier for some, more than others, to fixate on a powerful 
image of an ideal self.

It may be, that your brain is not wired in such a way, that it 
makes it easy for you to fixate on yourself.

That's not necessarily a bad thing ;-)

My hapiness and motivation has certainly *not* come from fixating 
on an ideal image of myself. Nor do I want a fixation on myself 
to be the motivating force in my life.

Any focus on myself, has typically always been due to a necessity 
(to focus on myself) - ie. Because of the need to eat, sleep, 
earn money, have somewhere to live, etc.....). I'm not sure the 
'self' deserves much more attention than that.

In any case, be warned : Once you get those connections 
activating in your left prefrontal cortex.. you're going to be 
stuck with them.
May 18 2023
prev sibling parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 14:56:15 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 I promise, everyone will learn more about IVY as we go along. 
 ...


This statement precisely sums up the problem.

First, that IVY has been so much a part of your discussions, and 
yet, nobody has a clue as to what it actually is - not even those 
who participated, it seems.

Second, IVY is about turning inwards, towards the so called 
'self', in order to find something (apparently) that will help 
the D project move forward. That sounds aireee..faireee to me in 
itself (even if it has some substance).

Third, I really do NOT want to learn more about IVY. Not in the D 
forums, nor at DConf.

By making IVY so important to the D project, you are inhernetly 
dividing people -> those who believe in IVY -> and those that 
don't.

No more talk of this IVY nonsense please.

btw. I remain surprised that Walter hasn't already stamped this 
nonsense IVY talk out, to be honest. Maybe he's been converted as 
well?
May 17 2023
parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:38:20 UTC, Theo wrote:


And btw. This is the kind of concrete actions that can move D 
forward (and yet, not a single comment about it??)

https://forum.dlang.org/thread/xnrpwnndvyrfnrjaksso forum.dlang.org



 May 17 2023



  parent  zjh <fqbqrr 163.com>  writes:


On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:43:03 UTC, Theo wrote:

 https://forum.dlang.org/thread/xnrpwnndvyrfnrjaksso forum.dlang.org




It's not important whether there are comments or not, what's 
important is that we see the progress in D, which I think is more 
important than ivy.



 May 17 2023



prev sibling  parent  Andrew <andrewlalisofficial gmail.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 22:17:13 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:

 But announcing IVY to the D community as the messiah-like 
 stratedgy for taking D forward.... sounded more (to me at 
 least) like a cult was forming.


I think a lot of people here are having extreme reactions to 
something that was not meant to be the main focus of the 
discussion; rather it's a means to an end for improving the 
mentality of those who are working on D.

It's only fair to criticize it if we see that it doesn't work in 
the coming months.



 May 17 2023



prev sibling  parent reply WilliamJames <WilliamJames gmail.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 ...
 However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and 
 motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.


The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to 
suffering.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full



 May 15 2023



 next sibling parent  =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/15/23 22:58, WilliamJames wrote:


 The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to suffering.
 
 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full
 


Good discussion and fascinating stuff.

Ali



 May 16 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/15/23 22:58, WilliamJames wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 ...
 However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and 
 motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.


 
 The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to suffering.
 
 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full
 


I finally read that paper. Was that a joke?

The paper is full of unsubstantiated beliefs of an author with a strong 
self.

The author claims self is a result of western individualism and proposes 
unself. That is false because in fact, self is natural. The seeking of 
unself is unnatural as seen by the extent of "giving up desires, 
displaying compassion, practicing meditation and seeking understanding 
Buddhist wisdom."

(Aside: I resent the implication that people with self don't have 
compassion. We do have.)

As a person who does not have nonself, I am disturbed by the premise of 
this sentence: "Egoism is inclined to increased extent to which the 
individual considers that his or her own condition is more important 
than that of others and takes unquestioned priority." How strong the 
author's self must have been that he puts himself over others and claims 
with certainty that I have "unquestionable priority" over others. 
Popycock! That sentence there is contradiction enough to dismiss this 
non-science paper.

Perhaps unself is an attempt at escape for people who have strong 
selves. They must assume the rest of us have strong selves as well. But 
I don't. For example, I have discovered "I don't exist" on my own when I 
was a teenager. No meditation was involved.

The author assumes "[...] death anxiety and moral conduct." Where does 
that come from? Only children are anxious about death. (Aside: Please 
learn to use the Oxford comma. I don't think the author meant 
eliminating "moral conduct".)

"In Buddhism, as long as we have the self, we will be egoistic." 
Popycock! It is the same thing that some religions attempt to make 
people believe to give what you already have: "kindness, compassion, 
goodness, etc.".

My self rejects that paper.

I strongly recommend for you and others to embrace the scientific method 
and reject non-peer-reviewed works that are presented as such. Such 
"papers" are full of references to similar other papers. In fact, you 
can write one yourunself now.

It also says "The author declares that the research was conducted 
[...]". But the paper conflicts with itunself because actually there was 
no research: "This paper is the first to postulate an academically 
respectable theory". See? No research. It was just thinking.

What a waste of time that was! But at least it was mildly entertaining.

Ali



 May 19 2023



 next sibling parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 07:07:19 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 ..
 What a waste of time that was! But at least it was mildly 
 entertaining.

 Ali


The only point for my referencing that theory, was in the 
relation to the promotion of IVY in this forum (and apparently at 
the next Dconf too). I simply wanted to demonstrate that people 
may have other 'beliefs' when it comes to the concept of self, 
the importance of the self, and the manner of cultivating, or 
not, that self.

I should also point out, that it was a 'HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY 
article', supported by a research grant received from the 
Ministry of Science and Technology, Taiwan, and published in a 
peer-reviewed journal 'Frontiers in Psychology', which is the 
most respected and most cited journal in its field!

That does not mean you should accept it. That is why its referred 
to in the journal, as a 'HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY article', and part 
of a broader set of articles exploring Eastern Philosophies and 
Psychology. One does not accept these things, just because they 
appear in a journal, no matter how well respected that journal 
is. That my friend, is what science is for!

But again, the only point for my presenting it, was to 
demonstrate that not everyone will support the IVY theory 
(either). It's presented as an organisational development, and so 
its actual agenda is hidden behind that, and you need to go look 
for it. I'm not inferring anything by saying that, but Saeed 
Sabeti is also the founder of another organisation. I expect the 
same motivations are being driven here as well (again, I'm 
certainly not inferring anything here, just saying that people 
should be aware of the philosophy that is behind these ideas, so 
they can make their own judgements as to whether it aligns with 
their 'self' concept.

The other reason I was motivated to raise this article in this 
forum, was because I studied and wrote about this very topic, 
extensively, during by Bachelor Degree in Psychological Science 
(at one of the most respected Universities in this country).

 From my perspective, IVY has no place in this forum or at DConf, 
anymore that Buddhism would. What people do to motivate 
themselves, is up to them. Please keep it that way. I don't want 
people preaching to me on this, or any other matter. I just want 
a programming language that I feel excited about when I use it. 
That is what this forum should be about, and what Dconf should be 
about.



 May 19 2023



  parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/19/23 21:16, Theo wrote:


 I studied and wrote about this very topic, extensively, [...]


That doesn't mean you should accept it. Critical mind is a part of 
science as well.

For me, one of the most important signals is contradiction: No person 
who claims to have a scientific mind should be blind to it. No matter 
what the motivations of authors, journals, readers, and universities may 
be. Contradiction is a fundamental signal that will guide you the right 
direction.


 I don't want people preaching to me on this, or any other matter.


Nobody did that. There was just an announcement about an organizational 
method.

I know I shouldn't preach about the futility of hurting people under 
infinite pseudonyms just to get class private in the language. You need 
strong support for such a weak feature, which will never come from 
trolling. You pull me into an off-topic hypothesis just to get class 
private? Good luck to you with that and I go to my Thunderbird settings.

Ali



 May 20 2023



  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 14:36:42 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/19/23 21:16, Theo wrote:


 I studied and wrote about this very topic, extensively, [...]


 That doesn't mean you should accept it. Critical mind is a part 
 of science as well.


Umm.. you don't get awared a degree in science without a critical 
mind.

Personal views play no part in a degree in science.

I also have no personal view on the 'self', except, that I don't 
really understand what it is, exactly ;-)   .. the biological 
self I understand. The self that we make up for ourselves, or 
others make up for us, is at best .. a polysemous concept.

Enought talk of the self anyway. Lets put that aside.


 For me, one of the most important signals is contradiction: No 
 person who claims to have a scientific mind should be blind to 
 it. No matter what the motivations of authors, journals, 
 readers, and universities may be. Contradiction is a 
 fundamental signal that will guide you the right direction.


 I don't want people preaching to me on this, or any other


 matter.

 Nobody did that. There was just an announcement about an 
 organizational method.


That is not how I understood the announcement. It sounded like a 
philosophy how to to make D great again, was going to be preached 
to all of us - including at Dconf.


 I know I shouldn't preach about the futility of hurting people 
 under infinite pseudonyms just to get class private in the 
 language. You need strong support for such a weak feature, 
 which will never come from trolling. You pull me into an 
 off-topic hypothesis just to get class private? Good luck to 
 you with that and I go to my Thunderbird settings.

 Ali


This is the exact vitriole that one has to put up with, just for 
wanting to be able to declare a class member private within a 
module.

someone: "I want an option to have a class member to be private 
with a module."

10's of others: "That's an utterly ridiculous, perverted idea for 

to be private. Just use structs and make everything public! We 
don't do that OOP crap in D anymore! If you keep saying this, 
we're going to block you, and we're going to filter you out in 
our Thunderbird settings.."

and around and around it goes.... even still it seems (you being 
one of the main contributors to this merry-go-round!).



 May 20 2023



  parent reply surlymoor <surlymoor cock.li>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:21:48 UTC, Theo wrote:

 someone: "I want an option to have a class member to be private 
 with a module."

 10's of others: "That's an utterly ridiculous, perverted idea 

 needs to be private. Just use structs and make everything 
 public! We don't do that OOP crap in D anymore! If you keep 
 saying this, we're going to block you, and we're going to 
 filter you out in our Thunderbird settings.."

 and around and around it goes.... even still it seems (you 
 being one of the main contributors to this merry-go-round!).


Hello, forkit. I see you have yet to compose a DIP.



 May 20 2023



 next sibling parent  Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:24:12 UTC, surlymoor wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:21:48 UTC, Theo wrote:

 someone: "I want an option to have a class member to be 
 private with a module."

 10's of others: "That's an utterly ridiculous, perverted idea 

 needs to be private. Just use structs and make everything 
 public! We don't do that OOP crap in D anymore! If you keep 
 saying this, we're going to block you, and we're going to 
 filter you out in our Thunderbird settings.."

 and around and around it goes.... even still it seems (you 
 being one of the main contributors to this merry-go-round!).


 Hello, forkit. I see you have yet to compose a DIP.


And we're off... again.



 May 20 2023



prev sibling  parent  Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:24:12 UTC, surlymoor wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:21:48 UTC, Theo wrote:

 someone: "I want an option to have a class member to be 
 private with a module."

 10's of others: "That's an utterly ridiculous, perverted idea 

 needs to be private. Just use structs and make everything 
 public! We don't do that OOP crap in D anymore! If you keep 
 saying this, we're going to block you, and we're going to 
 filter you out in our Thunderbird settings.."

 and around and around it goes.... even still it seems (you 
 being one of the main contributors to this merry-go-round!).


 Hello, forkit. I see you have yet to compose a DIP.


Well, now that you've brought the topic up....

The DIP would basically be as simple as this.

// ---

module someClass;

class C
{
    private(this) int x;
    void increment() {++x;}
}

unittest
{
     auto c = new C;
     c.x++; // please compiler, don't allow this - this was an 
typing accident.
     c.increment(); // yes, this was my intention. Thanks to 
private(this), the compiler now knows this too (not to mention 
people who look at the code).
}

// ----

The only objection I've encountered to this idea, seems to be 
wholly based on the idealogy of the sanctity of marriage .. I 
mean... the module.

Modularity and encapsulation can (and should be allowed to) apply 
at many levels of ones code (enums, functions, classes, module, 
packages....).

At the moment, there is no way to declare this intent in D. You 
have to put the unittest in a separate file as well - but even 
then, that does show intent, it's merely a workaround because you 
cannot delcare that intent .. in D.



 May 20 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 07:07:19 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 The paper is full of unsubstantiated beliefs of an author with 
 a strong self.

 The author claims self is a result of western individualism and


At no point, is this article about the author, of his beliefs, or 
otherwise.

If it had been, it would have NEVER been published in such a 
prestigous journal.

Please don't mispresent what you clearly do not understand.

If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:

https://www.altereducation.org/

(an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).

I do NOT imply there is anything wrong with what he is promoting. 
I'm simply pointing out, that he is being driven by his personal 
beliefs, and other should be allowed to the same thing. But none 
of these should have any role in the D forums, nor at Dconf. That 
really, is my point.



 May 19 2023



 next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/19/23 21:38, Theo wrote:


 Please don't mispresent what you clearly do not understand.


I know I understand.


 If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:

 https://www.altereducation.org/

 (an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).


And your point is?


 I do NOT imply there is anything wrong with what he is promoting.


Ah! But you still bring it up. Hm? I wonder why?


 I'm
 simply pointing out, that he is being driven by his personal beliefs,
 and other should be allowed to the same thing. But none of these should
 have any role in the D forums, nor at Dconf. That really, is my point.


Your want to get class private by trolling.

Ali



 May 20 2023



 next sibling parent  Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 14:39:08 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/19/23 21:38, Theo wrote:


 Please don't mispresent what you clearly do not understand.


 I know I understand.


 If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:

 https://www.altereducation.org/

 (an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting


 IVY).

 And your point is?


 I do NOT imply there is anything wrong with what he is


 promoting.

 Ah! But you still bring it up. Hm? I wonder why?


Because DLF is wanting to promote IVY, which like Alter 
Education, has an agenda.

The agenda itself might be fine, or not. That is for each person 
to decide.

But you cannot decide without knowing the agenda, can you?

I know you would prefer to suggest to others that I think there 
is something sinister his that agenda. I don't. I'm simply 
pointing out there is an agenda. But that argument of yours, sure 
sounds like it would suit your agenda - which is against me, and 
very personal it seems.



 I'm
 simply pointing out, that he is being driven by his personal


 beliefs,

 and other should be allowed to the same thing. But none of


 these should

 have any role in the D forums, nor at Dconf. That really, is


 my point.

 Your want to get class private by trolling.

 Ali


Honestly, you're vitriole towards me is getting rather silly.



 May 20 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 14:39:08 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 ....
 Your want to get class private by trolling.

 Ali


I'd also like to highlight, the difference between your approach 
to the request for class private members within a module, and the 
approach of Dennis Korpel, who kept the personal 'stuff' out of 
it, and just focused on how it could be done, and not whether it 
should be done.

That kind of response by Dennis, is the kind of response that is 
'motivating'.

I wish there were more people like Dennis in the D 'community'.

(again, Dennis did not do it because he wanted it, necessarily, 
but because he wanted to see how it could be done).

I hope others can follow Dennis's lead.

The constant 'obstructionist approach', personal vitriole 
approach, and 'go write a DIP approach', which has come to define 
too much of the D forums, and the response of too many in the D 
'community', at least for me, is not at all motivating.

If their were a rotating stewardship for D, I'd be voting for 
Dennis to be on the next round of stewardship (even if he never 
supports class private finding its way into D ;-)



 May 20 2023



 next sibling parent  zjh <fqbqrr 163.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 00:51:35 UTC, Theo wrote:

 If their were a rotating stewardship for D, I'd be voting for 
 Dennis to be on the next round of stewardship (even if he never 
 supports class private finding its way into D ;-)



+1.



 May 20 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent  claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 00:51:35 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 14:39:08 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 I'd also like to highlight, the difference between your 
 approach to the request for class private members within a 
 module, and the approach of Dennis Korpel, who kept the 
 personal 'stuff' out of it, and just focused on how it could be 
 done, and not whether it should be done.

 That kind of response by Dennis, is the kind of response that 
 is 'motivating'.


Did it motivate you to contribute to D? Did you write a DIP for 
class private?

How exactly did Dennis motivate you to help D? You seem motivated 
to post in the forum but little else.



 I wish there were more people like Dennis in the D 'community'.


You like Dennis because he gave you what you wanted. It doesn't 
take a psychology degree to understand that.

And why put 'community' in quotes? That makes it seem derisive or 
sarcastic? Is that your intent? Because it's a naive thing to do 
if you want people to listen to you.



 The constant 'obstructionist approach', personal vitriole 
 approach, and 'go write a DIP approach', which has come to 
 define too much of the D forums, and the response of too many 
 in the D 'community', at least for me, is not at all motivating.


Why should anyone do what you say? You're nobody, just a random 
lurker in the forum like me. I don't expect anyone to listen to 
me let alone do what I say.

The people doing the work can do what they want, organize 
themselves how they want. It's mind blowing to me that you see a 
bunch of people working on something and you expect them to just 
do what you think. Like you are so enlightened that everyone 
should listen to you.

Just to be clear I have nothing to do with D officialy.



 If their were a rotating stewardship for D, I'd be voting for 
 Dennis to be on the next round of stewardship (even if he never 
 supports class private finding its way into D ;-)


Why would you get a vote?



 May 21 2023



prev sibling  parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 00:51:35 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 14:39:08 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 I'd also like to highlight, the difference between your 
 approach to the request for class private members within a 
 module, and the approach of Dennis Korpel, who kept the 
 personal 'stuff' out of it, and just focused on how it could be 
 done, and not whether it should be done.

 That kind of response by Dennis, is the kind of response that 
 is 'motivating'.


Did it motivate you to contribute to D? Did you write a DIP for 
class private?

How exactly did Dennis motivate you to help D? You seem motivated 
to post in the forum but little else.



 I wish there were more people like Dennis in the D 'community'.


You like Dennis because he gave you what you wanted. It doesn't 
take a psychology degree to understand that.

And why put 'community' in quotes? That makes it seem derisive or 
sarcastic? Is that your intent? Because it's a naive thing to do 
if you want people to listen to you.



 The constant 'obstructionist approach', personal vitriole 
 approach, and 'go write a DIP approach', which has come to 
 define too much of the D forums, and the response of too many 
 in the D 'community', at least for me, is not at all motivating.


Why should anyone do what you say? You're nobody, just a random 
lurker in the forum like me. I don't expect anyone to listen to 
me let alone do what I say.

The people doing the work can do what they want, organize 
themselves how they want. It's mind blowing to me that you see a 
bunch of people working on something and you expect them to just 
do what you think. Like you are so enlightened that everyone 
should listen to you.

Just to be clear I have nothing to do with D officialy.



 If their were a rotating stewardship for D, I'd be voting for 
 Dennis to be on the next round of stewardship (even if he never 
 supports class private finding its way into D ;-)


Why would you get a vote?



 May 21 2023



 next sibling parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 12:42:50 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 Why should anyone do what you say? You're nobody, just a random 
 lurker in the forum like me. I don't expect anyone to listen to 
 me let alone do what I say.


Well, it sure sounds like you're just out to deride me, with no 
other objective other than that.

So I'll just ignore most of what you said.

However, where we do seem to differentiate, is that I'm not a 
random lurker, like you announce yourself to be. I've been 
writing small utilities in D for over a decade now.

So I've invested a lot of my personal time in the use of this 
programming language, and like others who have done the same, I 
have gripes, and ideas, as well.

I'm guessing you're one of the few, but loud, people that has an 
idealogical hatred towards private(this) ??

I can fight fire with fire too ... sadly, that's often what I 
have to do in these forums, as demonstrated clearly by your posts.



 May 21 2023



  parent  claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 23:12:03 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 12:42:50 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 Why should anyone do what you say? You're nobody, just a 
 random lurker in the forum like me. I don't expect anyone to 
 listen to me let alone do what I say.


 Well, it sure sounds like you're just out to deride me, with no 
 other objective other than that.


You're posting anonymously and you keep changing your username. 
That's the definition of a random lurker. IE No-one really knows 
who you are when you post. (generally)

I literally cant believe you were offend by me pointing that 
out???



 So I'll just ignore most of what you said.


You wont explain why you always put the D 'community' in 
sarcastic quotes?



 However, where we do seem to differentiate, is that I'm not a 
 random lurker, like you announce yourself to be. I've been 
 writing small utilities in D for over a decade now.


So what? You could have written a millions lines of D, it doesnt 
change the fact that your behavior is "randomly lurking" on the 
forums, frequently changing your username and popping up randomly 
to rant about the 'community'.



 So I've invested a lot of my personal time in the use of this 
 programming language, and like others who have done the same, I 
 have gripes, and ideas, as well.


Nope, you have invested a lot of time into your own utilities, 
you haven't invested anything into D. You've had the benefit of 
using D for free, and given nothing back, and somehow that makes 
you feel that you should be entitled to be angry when people who 
are actual working on D don't listen to you.

If I borrow my brothers truck for a couple of months, that doesnt 
mean I've invested time in it, it means I've used it. If then 
acted like I should have a say on any future work done on the 
truck he'd be well within his rights to tell me to **** off.

He's a clue, make your suggestions, but don't throw a tantrum if 
people dont agree with you. It will literally only make things 
worse.



 I'm guessing you're one of the few, but loud, people that has 
 an idealogical hatred towards private(this) ??


I don't care either way. I probably wouldn't use it but there's a 
bunch of features I dont use.

But the fact you characterize people who have the opposite 
opinion to you as having "ideological hatred", again says more 
about you than it does about them.



 I can fight fire with fire too ... sadly, that's often what I 
 have to do in these forums, as demonstrated clearly by your 
 posts.


Again look at your language, fire with fire, you're looking for 
conflict, anyone who disagrees with you or questions your 
behavior is an enemy.



 May 24 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 12:42:50 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 How exactly did Dennis motivate you to help D? You seem 
 motivated to post in the forum but little else.


Because he (Dennis) made me interested in the compiler itself, by 
showing me how I could have private(this).

Before that, I don't recall ever looking at the compiler source 
code.

Now, I have my own 'fork' of the compiler source code, that has 
private(this) enabled by default, and also has a number of other 
features that I make the compiler do, to work for me (rather than 
the other way around).

That's why I'd vote for him. Cause he showed me how to do it 
myself, and as a result got me motivated to work out how to make 
the compiler work for me.

The current D leaders (and many in these forums) just wanted to 
focus on obstruction, and ensuring that the idea could not be 
propagated in these forums.

Another reason I'd vote for Dennis, is because he combined 
BeerConf and Mario....  ;-)

https://youtu.be/f9RzegZmnUc?t=2580



 May 21 2023



 next sibling parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 23:24:50 UTC, Theo wrote:

 ....
 The current D leaders (and many in these forums) just wanted to 
 focus on obstruction, and ensuring that the idea could not be 
 propagated in these forums.



https://youtu.be/G6b62HmsO6M?t=1600



 May 21 2023



  parent  Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 23:31:45 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 23:24:50 UTC, Theo wrote:

 ....
 The current D leaders (and many in these forums) just wanted 
 to focus on obstruction, and ensuring that the idea could not 
 be propagated in these forums.



 https://youtu.be/G6b62HmsO6M?t=1600


and btw. I've never supported the idea the private should be 
changed (as this video suggests).

private should NOT be changed.

private(this) should be added.

Then I won't have to use so many modules....

I want my Ship module to contain my ships, and the unittests as 
well, while ensuring private parts remain private.

To ensure they remain private, at the moment, i have to put ever 
ship in it own class.

Then, I need yet another module for unittests.

n.. number of modules are now required - just because there is no 
'private(this)'.



 May 21 2023



prev sibling  parent  claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 23:24:50 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 12:42:50 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 How exactly did Dennis motivate you to help D? You seem 
 motivated to post in the forum but little else.


 Because he (Dennis) made me interested in the compiler itself, 
 by showing me how I could have private(this).


It didn't motivate you to help D though D it, It just motivated 
you to help yourself. Which is kind of ironic given your earlier 
posts about selfless you like to be.



 May 24 2023



prev sibling  parent  Monkyyy <crazymonkyyy gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:38:43 UTC, Theo wrote:

 If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:

 https://www.altereducation.org/

 (an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).



 we seek to abolish compulsory education.




Based



 May 20 2023



prev sibling  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 5/15/2023 10:58 PM, WilliamJames wrote:

 The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to suffering.
 
 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full



This is way off topic for the forum. Please stop.



 May 22 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 02:59:34 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 ..


If you want to boost my dopamine levels, you can do that much 
more easily than trying to explain IVY to me.

Just announce D3 (with the following 2 features).

(1) D3 will be  safe by default. There is no need to annotate 
with  safe anymore. In order to compile any code that is 
annotated with  system or  trusted, you need to use a new 
compiler argument: -unsafe. All code compiled without -unsafe, is 
treated as if it had been annoted with  safe.

(2) D3 will include the ability to annotate a class level member 
as being private to that class (that is, private to other code 
within the same module, including unit-tests.) - the same as you 
already do in Swift. Module-private remains the default however.

ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.



 May 14 2023



 next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/14/23 23:23, Theo wrote:


 ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.


Ha ha! But IVY did that. :o)

Ali



 May 14 2023



  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 06:27:44 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/14/23 23:23, Theo wrote:


 ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.


 Ha ha! But IVY did that. :o)

 Ali


I'm going to propose my own theory of motivation:

THEO -> the THEory of Options.

This will motivate me to use D more, because now I can invoke an 
option that is aligned to the problem I'm trying to solve.

DLF can hire me for further consulations.



 May 14 2023



  parent  =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/14/23 23:35, Theo wrote:


 aligned to the problem I'm trying to solve.


I am ALİgned at birth! :o) (Seriously, one of the tools I wrote is named 
'aligner', not at all coincidentally.)


 DLF can hire me for further consulations.


Where do I sign? ;)

Ali



 May 15 2023



prev sibling  parent  Sergey <kornburn yandex.ru>  writes:


On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 06:23:28 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 02:59:34 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 ..


 If you want to boost my dopamine levels, you can do that much 
 more easily than trying to explain IVY to me.

 Just announce D3 (with the following 2 features).


Unfortunately unlikely it is working like that..

D3 is already announced - it will be shipped right after all bugs 
of D2 will be fixed



 May 15 2023



prev sibling  parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/14/23 13:09, ag0aep6g wrote:


 The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole
 lot of hot air.


It may or may not be. What I know about motivation is, once you find a 
person excited about something, the last thing you want to do is try to 
convince them that they shouldn't be.


 I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because
 telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product.


Wrong assumption.


 It's what they're
 making their money with, so you can't just give it away for free. Fair
 enough.


But that's not the answer.


 But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the program free
 of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to experience the
 life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay?


No.


 What does it cost?


Hiç.


 Is all
 this over-excited


May I suggest don't try to kill excitement. It never helps.


 hype talk just an ad for what Ucora is selling?


No. What you are seeing is some honest D people trying to help D.

Ali



 May 14 2023



  parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com>  writes:


On 15.05.23 08:15, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 5/14/23 13:09, ag0aep6g wrote:
 
  > The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole
  > lot of hot air.
 
 It may or may not be. What I know about motivation is, once you find a 
 person excited about something, the last thing you want to do is try to 
 convince them that they shouldn't be.


Mike is not some random excited contributor that I'm telling to stop 
being happy. He's the one telling us to be excited about IVY without 
giving out any meaningful information about it. I'm not being mean to 
him by calling that out.

I might be being a little mean to him in the way I choose to express 
that, but that's what you get when you throw PR nothingburgers at me.


  > I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because
  > telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product.
 
 Wrong assumption.


Then I don't understand why we can't have a more substantial description 
of what IVY is. What did you guys do every Friday for 14 weeks?

[...]

  > What does it cost?
 
 Hiç.


Je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas français.



 May 15 2023



  parent  =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 5/15/23 05:09, ag0aep6g wrote:


 What did you guys do every Friday for 14 weeks?


My self is too embarrassed to admit. I am trying to get rid of him (her? 
them?) first. :p


  > What does it cost?

 Hiç.


 Je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas français.


It was a bad joke about adding a Turkish word to the colloqial "zero, 
zilch, zip, nada, nothing".

Ali



 May 16 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent reply zjh <fqbqrr 163.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Last week, in my post titled ['A New Era for the D 
 Community'](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/avvmlvjmvdniwwxemc
u forum.dlang.org), I announced that Ucora had taken us through IVY,



After Musk buys Twitter, the first thing he did was lay off 
Indians. Management was not really important. What the D 
community needed was actually a task priority list.

`Task List+Implementation+Schedule`!



 May 15 2023



  parent  bachmeier <no spam.net>  writes:


On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 15:02:15 UTC, zjh wrote:


 Management was not really important. What the D community 
 needed was actually a task priority list.

 `Task List+Implementation+Schedule`!


If you could just post a list of things that "someone" will do, 
and the schedule for "someone" to do it, all of D's problems 
would already have been solved. There's the tricky issue of 
"doing the work" and that requires management.



 May 15 2023



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Salih Dincer <salihdb hotmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:


 Follow my planning updates. Keep an eye on the goals and task 
 lists once they're published. Tell us when you think we're 
 getting it right. Tell us when you think we're getting it 
 wrong. Tell us your ideas. The planning sessions are not a 
 replacement for the monthly and quarterly meetings. If you're 
 using D in production, commercially or free, I'm happy to bring 
 you into the quarterly meetings. And anyone is welcome to join 
 us for one or more monthly meetings to contribute ideas and 
 feedback.


We appreciate your initiatives for we have grown up with 
[His](https://mevlanafoundation.com/mevlana-his-works/) 
teachings. I am IVY far away as you are far from Mevlana. The 
only point between us is the codes...

I want D to generalize around me. It doesn't make any sense to me 
after I don't see what it is done on the codes. If things to do 
will popularize D, why not! Good luck.

SDB 79



 May 17 2023



  parent reply Salih Dincer <salihdb hotmail.com>  writes:


On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 21:24:18 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 [His](https://mevlanafoundation.com/mevlana-his-works/) I am 
 IVY far away as you are far from Mevlana.




SDB 79



 May 18 2023



  parent reply Salih Dincer <salihdb hotmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 07:02:35 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 21:24:18 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:
 I am IVY far away as you are
 far from Mevlana.


Pardon...

As much as you are far from 
[Mevlana](https://mevlanafoundation.com/mevlana-his-works/) 
teaching, I am far from IVY.

SDB 79



 May 18 2023



  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 07:04:37 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 07:02:35 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 21:24:18 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:
 I am IVY far away as you are
 far from Mevlana.


 Pardon...

 As much as you are far from 
 [Mevlana](https://mevlanafoundation.com/mevlana-his-works/) 
 teaching, I am far from IVY.

 SDB 79


Yes, Rumi theology does seem a long way from IVY theology ;-)

IVY seems to have a very strong focus on reclaiming "ownership of 
the self", and concepts such as individualism, autonomy and free 
will.

I'm unconvinced of the validity of their 'social cooperativeness 
based on individualism' theory.

Where is the data to support this theory?

I'd like to point out also, that the 'western' experiment, of 
social cooperativeness based on individualism, is still very much 
an experiment inplay.

I'd argue, that experiment is not going all that well 
(particularly in some countries more than others).

There is also international evidence that suggests, that 
individualism has lead to a more severe COVID-19 situation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01124-5

But will we all be better of if we instead try to become that 
which cannot come into the imagination?

Not sure about that theory either.

Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!

If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
theory is worth a try ;-)

Give it a try yourselves. (Hopefully, you won't need to spend 14 
weeks working out how to.. Just do it! )



 May 18 2023



  parent reply Salih Dincer <salihdb hotmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:

 Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!

 If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
 theory is worth a try ;-)


What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀

The most basic philosophy of Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi's path is 
humanism.  He argues that worldly life is temporary and that 
materialism in mortal life is not the most harmful surety in 
human thought.  According to Mevlana's views, the most important 
thing is 'being human' and 'acting humanely' throughout life.  He 
writes with words and various stories that loving people living 
in his works is the same as loving the whole universe and loving 
God.  The most important thing for Mevlana is the greeting.

Regardless of which religion the person believes in or even 
believes in the Creator, he says, "Come, whatever you are, come 
again."  He is the person of his time, today and tomorrow with 
his scientific knowledge, perspective on the universe and human 
beings, morality, tolerance and attitude.

SDB 79



 May 19 2023



 next sibling parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:

 Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!

 If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
 theory is worth a try ;-)


 What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀


Yes ;-)

I think it's the best advertising pitch ever!

It the *universal* principle of how to actually get things done.

Whenever I don't feel motivate to do something, this always comes 
to mind, and I end up 'just doing it'. Then it gets done, and 
funny enough, motivation never played a role in getting it done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Do_It



 May 19 2023



  parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:24:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:

 Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!

 If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
 theory is worth a try ;-)


 What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀


 Yes ;-)

 I think it's the best advertising pitch ever!

 It the *universal* principle of how to actually get things done.


My brother tried "just walking to the north pole"

He died.



 May 20 2023



  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 21:08:29 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:24:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:

 Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do 
 it!

 If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
 theory is worth a try ;-)


 What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀


 Yes ;-)

 I think it's the best advertising pitch ever!

 It the *universal* principle of how to actually get things 
 done.


 My brother tried "just walking to the north pole"

 He died.


Any response to that would come across a being insensitive, no 
matter how well intentioned.

I suggest we bring this conversation to quick end, now, and focus 
on what Mike just posted recently: "And anyway, the value in 
these planning sessions is what they produce, not how we get 
there."

That's what I'm interested in. What is produced.



 May 20 2023



  parent reply claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:45:48 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 21:08:29 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:24:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC,









 My brother tried "just walking to the north pole"

 He died.


 Any response to that would come across a being insensitive, no 
 matter how well intentioned.


Well he was drunk and wearing flip flops.

What i might be trying to say is that "just do it" is to 
psychology what "stuff falls down" is to physics.



 May 21 2023



 next sibling parent  Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 09:13:04 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 23:45:48 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 21:08:29 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:24:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC,









 My brother tried "just walking to the north pole"

 He died.


 Any response to that would come across a being insensitive, no 
 matter how well intentioned.


 Well he was drunk and wearing flip flops.

 What i might be trying to say is that "just do it" is to 
 psychology what "stuff falls down" is to physics.


No. I do not at all recommend the Nike theory in regards to the 
practice of psychology ;-)

The practice of Psychology must be informed by science and expert 
opinion, at all times.

But getting back to D....(which IS the context in which I promote 
the Nike theory)

This is why D needs an 'experimental' version.

An experimental version enables the opportunity to demonstrate 
the worth of an idea.

Having only a release version just discourages ideas. The bar is 
just to high for a release version.

Of course, with only a release version, the Nike theory poses 
some risk.

So Nike Theory applied to an Experimental version, is what I 
really mean.



 May 21 2023



prev sibling  parent reply Theo <Theo gmail.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 09:13:04 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 What i might be trying to say is that "just do it" is to 
 psychology what "stuff falls down" is to physics.


No. I do not at all recommend the Nike theory in regards to the 
practice of psychology ;-)

The practice of Psychology must be informed by science and expert 
opinion, at all times.

But getting back to D....(which IS the context in which I promote 
the Nike theory)

This is why D needs an 'experimental' version.

An experimental version enables the opportunity to demonstrate 
the worth of an idea.

Having only a release version just discourages ideas. The bar is 
just to high for a release version.

Of course, with only a release version, the Nike theory poses 
some risk.

So Nike Theory applied to an Experimental version, is what I 
really mean.



 May 21 2023



  parent  claptrap <clap trap.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 10:13:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 09:13:04 UTC, claptrap wrote:

 What i might be trying to say is that "just do it" is to 
 psychology what "stuff falls down" is to physics.


 No. I do not at all recommend the Nike theory in regards to the 
 practice of psychology ;-)

 The practice of Psychology must be informed by science and 
 expert opinion, at all times.

 But getting back to D....(which IS the context in which I 
 promote the Nike theory)

 This is why D needs an 'experimental' version.

 An experimental version enables the opportunity to demonstrate 
 the worth of an idea.

 Having only a release version just discourages ideas. The bar 
 is just to high for a release version.

 Of course, with only a release version, the Nike theory poses 
 some risk.

 So Nike Theory applied to an Experimental version, is what I 
 really mean.


On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 10:13:11 UTC, Theo wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 09:13:04



 So Nike Theory applied to an Experimental version, is what I 
 really mean.


What you actually said was

"It the *universal* principle of how to actually get things done."

I cant be both *universal* and only applicable in some 
circumstances.



 May 21 2023



prev sibling  parent  user456 <user456 123.de>  writes:


On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:

 Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!

 If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike 
 theory is worth a try ;-)


 What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀


Likely it's Nick Treleaven.



 May 19 2023



prev sibling  parent  bob <bob example.com>  writes:


On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Last week, in my post titled ['A New Era for the D 
 Community'](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/avvmlvjmvdniwwxemc
u forum.dlang.org), I announced that Ucora had taken us through IVY, their
organizational development program, at no charge. In that thread and elsewhere,
the announcement received some positive feedback. I also saw some questions
raised and skeptical speculations made. I'll address the two biggest questions
here, and then I'll provide a short summary of our first concrete steps toward
the new era.

 [...]


hmmm



 May 17 2023