digitalmars.D - Could we use something better than zip for the dmd package?
- Trass3r (1/1) Dec 20 2011 The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.
- Timon Gehr (2/3) Dec 20 2011 7z is not supported out of the box on most systems.
- Trass3r (2/3) Dec 20 2011 The package is created for devs, not noobs.
- Timon Gehr (3/6) Dec 20 2011 I had to install package p7zip-full.
- Jonathan M Davis (12/16) Dec 20 2011 zip is by for the most ubiquitous, so it makes the most sense to use zip...
- Vladimir Panteleev (5/7) Dec 20 2011 Using mirrors.
- Walter Bright (4/9) Dec 20 2011 I've tried various tar programs for Windows, and they all stink. The bad...
- Andrej Mitrovic (6/6) Dec 21 2011 I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip,
- Walter Bright (5/11) Dec 21 2011 Because it's annoying.
- simendsjo (6/18) Dec 21 2011 In addition, some people don't have rights to install new software on
- jerro (3/7) Dec 21 2011 I agree with that. 20MB is not that much to download.
- Elvis Presley (4/4) Dec 21 2011 How about self extracting 7zip archive? It kick ass.
- Jacob Carlborg (5/9) Dec 21 2011 DVM lets you easily install and switch between multiple compilers.
- deadalnix (2/14) Dec 21 2011 That is so window :D
- Nick Sabalausky (16/28) Dec 21 2011 If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely n...
- Jonathan M Davis (18/35) Dec 21 2011 I don't even know the last time that I saw a 7zip file. They're incredib...
- Kagamin (2/10) Dec 22 2011 Only Linux and Mac users complain here about lack of 7z support
- a (2/40) Dec 22 2011 Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibili...
- Jonathan M Davis (8/11) Dec 22 2011 But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip fi...
- Nick Sabalausky (17/32) Dec 22 2011 Once again:
- Nick Sabalausky (12/47) Dec 22 2011 Additionally, sticking with zip-only is like sticking with mp3 for audio...
- Nick Sabalausky (6/58) Dec 22 2011 Yet one more thing: The idea is to offer 7z as an alternative to zip, no...
- Andrei Alexandrescu (3/6) Dec 22 2011 Wrong.
- Nick Sabalausky (5/10) Dec 22 2011 Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have ...
- Adam D. Ruppe (3/7) Dec 22 2011 There's simply no need for it.
- Stewart Gordon (4/9) Dec 22 2011 That an individual just hasn't needed it *yet* isn't a valid argument ei...
- so (2/6) Dec 22 2011 How about... if you are a programmer of another compressing product?
- Andrei Alexandrescu (13/25) Dec 22 2011 I think it's sheer statistics, as odd as that might sound. I quite enjoy...
- Vladimir Panteleev (24/34) Dec 22 2011 Oof, I think saying that here was uncalled for.
- Andrei Alexandrescu (9/25) Dec 22 2011 Well Nick is not one to mince words so he probably won't be offended by
- Vladimir Panteleev (6/9) Dec 22 2011 That's hardly a problem:
- Walter Bright (3/11) Dec 22 2011 Ug.
- Nick Sabalausky (4/12) Dec 23 2011 Both are very nice. Maybe I'm biased from having read Walter's coment fi...
- Nick Sabalausky (13/24) Dec 23 2011 Interestingly, in my experience, 7z seems to even beat .tar.bz2 by a
- Adam D. Ruppe (8/11) Dec 23 2011 Slackware Linux recently changed from the old .tar.gz for it's
- Jonathan M Davis (10/23) Dec 23 2011 In my experince, bzip2 gives comparable or better compression on smaller...
- Vladimir Panteleev (6/15) Dec 23 2011 The great thing about bzip2 is that it parallelizes much better
- Somedude (3/12) Dec 23 2011 You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM.
- Nick Sabalausky (4/19) Dec 23 2011 Yea, VirtualBox is awesome. I've been making a lot of use of it. I do ha...
- Jonathan M Davis (7/9) Dec 23 2011 VirtualBox is pretty much the only way that I use Windows these days, an...
- Jacob Carlborg (6/18) Dec 24 2011 If one wants to use both Windows and Linux, running one native and one
- Andrew Wiley (2/23) Dec 24 2011 It depends on how much you like Starcraft II.
- Nick Sabalausky (5/24) Dec 25 2011 Dosn't really matter as far as I've ever been able to tell. I'd say
- Nick Sabalausky (5/12) Dec 23 2011 Seriously? I don't mean this as an insult, but don't tell me this is as
- Andrei Alexandrescu (4/19) Dec 23 2011 That came out the wrong way. Please accept my apologies.
- Elvis Presley (5/45) Dec 22 2011 I like Nicks rant. I'll add my own:
- Jacob Carlborg (5/20) Dec 22 2011 IIRC it's possible to just open the ZIP archive as a regular folder with...
- Stewart Gordon (23/25) Dec 22 2011 It's possible to open the zip so that it looks superficially like a regu...
- Nick Sabalausky (5/22) Dec 23 2011 Yea, it is better than the wizard, but it still doesn't compare to the
- Don (6/40) Dec 24 2011 According to sourceforge, 7zip for Windows was downloaded 100 million
- Kagamin (7/14) Dec 25 2011 Availability is achieved by native installers, and AFAIK we have
- bearophile (4/6) Dec 25 2011 I suggest to just offer both zip and 7zip files.
- Kagamin (1/2) Dec 25 2011 Sure it can be done, but I doubt zip helps availability a lot.
- Alvaro (10/45) Dec 22 2011 I use 7zip everyday and where I work it has become the most common
- Somedude (2/6) Dec 23 2011 Same here. 7zip is becoming ubiquitous.
- Andrei Alexandrescu (5/23) Dec 22 2011 I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it.
- Jonathan M Davis (3/5) Dec 22 2011 Agreed.
- Adam Wilson (14/41) Dec 22 2011 In the faster servers department I agree. I have a 25Mbps fiber connecti...
- a (1/4) Dec 22 2011 Are you serious? Data transfer prices at Amazon are *very* high. Accordi...
- Adam Wilson (20/30) Dec 22 2011 I guess it's all about point-of-view. Compartively, in the US, Amazon's ...
- Sean Kelly (9/38) Dec 22 2011 I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source release. D...
- Jacob Carlborg (4/5) Dec 22 2011 The sources are already included.
- Sean Kelly (4/8) Dec 22 2011 release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, =
- Jacob Carlborg (4/10) Dec 22 2011 Yes, for the compiler, Phobos and druntime.
- Nick Sabalausky (4/16) Dec 23 2011 But not RDMD. That's such an important tool, its source really should be...
- Sean Kelly (5/13) Dec 22 2011 release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, =
- Jacob Carlborg (4/30) Dec 22 2011 Me neither, unless The Unarchiver can open it.
- a (2/40) Dec 22 2011 It can: http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiver
- Jacob Carlborg (4/44) Dec 23 2011 Cool.
- Trass3r (3/9) Dec 21 2011 Thx!! :D
- Kagamin (4/5) Dec 21 2011 In fact, software support is where linux sucks badly and can only
- so (2/3) Dec 21 2011 Do we have to choose one over another? No, we can have both.
- Jacob Carlborg (5/6) Dec 21 2011 Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools,
- Walter Bright (2/6) Dec 21 2011 I often wonder why the zip file format doesn't incorporate 7z.
- Vladimir Panteleev (20/21) Dec 21 2011 ZIP and 7z are nothing more than a container. The default and
- Walter Bright (3/9) Dec 21 2011 I understand that issue. The idea is to support it, at least for unzippi...
- Vladimir Panteleev (9/12) Dec 21 2011 All new versions of what? There is no "standard" implementation,
- Andrei Alexandrescu (11/25) Dec 21 2011 I repeat, this is a communal waste of time. I just downloaded and
- Vladimir Panteleev (4/6) Dec 21 2011 Bwuh? I'm seeing a reduction to 11.6MB (10.5 with ultra
- Andrei Alexandrescu (7/11) Dec 21 2011 I used the standard settings. After tweaking stuff, I got 5.5 MB for the...
- Vladimir Panteleev (5/19) Dec 21 2011 That's true. 7-Zip reduces the download size (and thus, speed) by
- Nick Sabalausky (9/32) Dec 21 2011 Those results are all because it's difficult to find good software for M...
- Nick Sabalausky (5/9) Dec 21 2011 Yea, so 7z would need to be an option, rather than the only option.
- Jonathan M Davis (5/18) Dec 21 2011 One of those things that probably requires that streams be implemented. ...
- Walter Bright (3/7) Dec 22 2011 No. Ranges. RANGES!!!
- Jonathan M Davis (4/7) Dec 22 2011 Yes, they'll be ranges, but we need the buffered stream support in order...
- Johannes Pfau (5/18) Dec 22 2011 Not sure if there's a ready to use, cross platform 7z library.
- Jacob Carlborg (4/15) Dec 22 2011 Yeah, that wouldn't hurt.
- Robert Clipsham (8/9) Dec 21 2011 The size doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is how long it takes
- Jacob Carlborg (4/10) Dec 21 2011 I completely agree with that.
- Andrei Alexandrescu (10/16) Dec 21 2011 This.
- Andrej Mitrovic (5/5) Dec 21 2011 Everybody is latched on to that because Walter can't get a move on.
- Nick Sabalausky (4/10) Dec 21 2011 +...without easily-obtainable permission...
- Walter Bright (2/4) Dec 21 2011 Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?
- Vladimir Panteleev (8/13) Dec 21 2011 1) Go to a GitHub project
- Andrei Alexandrescu (4/17) Dec 21 2011 1. How do we do that programmatically?
- Vladimir Panteleev (8/23) Dec 21 2011 Downloads are programmable with GitHub's API. They have an
- Andrei Alexandrescu (8/25) Dec 23 2011 I got the uploading script, and now I'm trying:
- Andrei Alexandrescu (17/42) Dec 23 2011 Oops, the code emits that error for files of size zero. Now I wrote a
- Vladimir Panteleev (6/7) Dec 23 2011 The script suffered some bitrot. The version I posted in IRC
- Andrei Alexandrescu (13/19) Dec 23 2011 Works, thanks! One problem remains, we need the script to also remove
- Walter Bright (2/14) Dec 21 2011 Thank you. I will investigate.
- Stewart Gordon (9/10) Dec 21 2011 Moreover, what zip compressor is being used? Some are stronger than oth...
- Mirko Pilger (29/30) Dec 22 2011 *+1*
- torhu (2/32) Dec 22 2011 Don't the keyboards on your planet have Shift keys?
- Walter Bright (6/7) Dec 22 2011 I quit using compression for backups. The problem was that if the backup...
- Vladimir Panteleev (6/13) Dec 22 2011 RAR (and some others) supports "recovery records" and "recovery
- Walter Bright (2/6) Dec 22 2011 I also worried about not having the right uncompressor when I needed it.
- Vladimir Panteleev (7/17) Dec 22 2011 Easily mitigated by putting decompression software on the same
- Walter Bright (26/40) Dec 22 2011 Not that easy, because will you really have the right platform 30 years ...
- Vladimir Panteleev (25/34) Dec 22 2011 Enthusiasts have created portable open-source software emulators
- Walter Bright (7/20) Dec 22 2011 That's why I mentioned Outlook Express.
- Nick Sabalausky (4/7) Dec 23 2011 Yup, that's one of the reasons I try to steer clear of any DRMed or
- Nick Sabalausky (5/21) Dec 23 2011 I've had Total Commander on my computer for at least a year or two.
- Somedude (4/5) Dec 23 2011 Wow, this thread sounds to me like a lot of noise for nothing.
- Elvis Presley (2/9) Dec 23 2011 It's a taboo topic. They will look into it after they discontinue D1 and...
The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.
Dec 20 2011
On 12/20/2011 08:57 PM, Trass3r wrote:The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.7z is not supported out of the box on most systems.
Dec 20 2011
7z is not supported out of the box on most systems.The package is created for devs, not noobs. btw Ubuntu's fine with 7z.
Dec 20 2011
On 12/20/2011 09:53 PM, Trass3r wrote:The package is created for both devs and noobs.7z is not supported out of the box on most systems.The package is created for devs, not noobs.btw Ubuntu's fine with 7z.I had to install package p7zip-full.
Dec 20 2011
On Tuesday, December 20, 2011 21:53:12 Trass3r wrote:zip is by for the most ubiquitous, so it makes the most sense to use zip. Personally, if I were going off of what was available on Linux, I'd be using tar.gz or tar.bz2, but that's not very Windows friendly. Pretty much nothing other than zip is Windows friendly. Yes, you _can_ install programs that will you allow you to decompress the file, but that just raises the barrier of entry to downloading and trying out dmd. If we really want to improve the download times, what we really should be doing is splitting up the zip file into separate files for each OS, not picking a file format that many people won't be able to decompress without searching for a program to install which is able to process that format. - Jonathan M Davis7z is not supported out of the box on most systems.The package is created for devs, not noobs. btw Ubuntu's fine with 7z.
Dec 20 2011
On Tuesday, 20 December 2011 at 23:28:03 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:If we really want to improve the download times, what we really should be doing isUsing mirrors. The DigitalMars server is some of the slowest servers I get to download files from.
Dec 20 2011
On 12/20/2011 3:27 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:Personally, if I were going off of what was available on Linux, I'd be using tar.gz or tar.bz2, but that's not very Windows friendly. Pretty much nothing other than zip is Windows friendly. Yes, you _can_ install programs that will you allow you to decompress the file, but that just raises the barrier of entry to downloading and trying out dmd.I've tried various tar programs for Windows, and they all stink. The bad smells usually emanate from multiple failures to deal with differences in how the file systems work.
Dec 20 2011
I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 21 2011
On 21.12.2011 11:15, Walter Bright wrote:On 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:In addition, some people don't have rights to install new software on their system or bring it from home on an USB stick. I don't think there's anything wrong in using .zip even if it's larger than .7z. But it can't be hard to change the deploy script to pack both .zip and .7z, and at the same time make archives for specific OSs, right?I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 21 2011
In addition, some people don't have rights to install new software on their system or bring it from home on an USB stick.They can use this: http://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/7-zip_portable , no need to install anything. If they don't have rights to their own executables, they can't use dmd anyway.I don't think there's anything wrong in using .zip even if it's larger than .7z.I agree with that. 20MB is not that much to download.
Dec 21 2011
How about self extracting 7zip archive? It kick ass. Or have zip, targz/bz2 and 7zip download archive so chose what you like (repacking script should be more than 10 lines). Or making separate packages for each OS (bit more of a work too) Or making download/upgrade installer (tada!) its fancy and "in"!
Dec 21 2011
On 2011-12-21 13:42, Elvis Presley wrote:How about self extracting 7zip archive? It kick ass. Or have zip, targz/bz2 and 7zip download archive so chose what you like (repacking script should be more than 10 lines). Or making separate packages for each OS (bit more of a work too) Or making download/upgrade installer (tada!) its fancy and "in"!DVM lets you easily install and switch between multiple compilers. https://bitbucket.org/doob/dvm -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 21 2011
Le 21/12/2011 11:15, Walter Bright a écrit :On 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:That is so window :DI thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 21 2011
"Walter Bright" <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...On 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed. Christ, even the "least-common-denominator" piracy scene has standardized on rar which has *exactly* the same accessibility level as 7z. (All the major rar programs on windows already support 7z, and on unix, getting 7z is a one-liner, no harder than getting rar: On debian-based: "sudo apt-get install p7zip-full" - *if* it isn't already installed by default, which it often is.) I'm normally one of the biggest fans of "don't exclude anyone", but what the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows? Seriously, who *doesn't* have at the very least WinRAR, or something akin to it? I'm personally ok with DMD coming in zip, but zip's alleged ubiquity is just not a valid reason.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 21 2011
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 01:53:00 Nick Sabalausky wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed. Christ, even the "least-common-denominator" piracy scene has standardized on rar which has *exactly* the same accessibility level as 7z. (All the major rar programs on windows already support 7z, and on unix, getting 7z is a one-liner, no harder than getting rar: On debian-based: "sudo apt-get install p7zip-full" - *if* it isn't already installed by default, which it often is.) I'm normally one of the biggest fans of "don't exclude anyone", but what the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows? Seriously, who *doesn't* have at the very least WinRAR, or something akin to it? I'm personally ok with DMD coming in zip, but zip's alleged ubiquity is just not a valid reason.I don't even know the last time that I saw a 7zip file. They're incredibly rare in my experience. I probably have a program installed on my system which will open them, since I'm running Linux, and it would have been easy enough to have that pulled in with the package manager for something-or-other, but I just don't see those kind of files, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see developers' boxes without the ability to open them - especially Windows boxes, where you'd have to go find such a program and install yourself as opposed to it getting pulled in by the package manager. If you're trying to have an archival format that pretty much any computer can open out of the box, zip is the only option. If you're restricting yourself to Linux computers specifically, there are definitely more options, but Windows can only handle zip files. For all other archival formats, the user has to track down a program which can handle them. No, that's not hard, but it _does_ raise the bar of entry somewhat, and there's really nothing wrong with using zip. The problem is the slow server (though breaking up the package for each OS would help further).l - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 21 2011
If you're trying to have an archival format that pretty much any computer can open out of the box, zip is the only option. If you're restricting yourself to Linux computers specifically, there are definitely more options, but Windows can only handle zip files. For all other archival formats, the user has to track down a program which can handle them. No, that's not hard, but it _does_ raise the bar of entry somewhat, and there's really nothing wrong with using zip.Only Linux and Mac users complain here about lack of 7z support in their oses.
Dec 22 2011
Jonathan M Davis Wrote:On Thursday, December 22, 2011 01:53:00 Nick Sabalausky wrote:Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed. Christ, even the "least-common-denominator" piracy scene has standardized on rar which has *exactly* the same accessibility level as 7z. (All the major rar programs on windows already support 7z, and on unix, getting 7z is a one-liner, no harder than getting rar: On debian-based: "sudo apt-get install p7zip-full" - *if* it isn't already installed by default, which it often is.) I'm normally one of the biggest fans of "don't exclude anyone", but what the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows? Seriously, who *doesn't* have at the very least WinRAR, or something akin to it? I'm personally ok with DMD coming in zip, but zip's alleged ubiquity is just not a valid reason.I don't even know the last time that I saw a 7zip file. They're incredibly rare in my experience. I probably have a program installed on my system which will open them, since I'm running Linux, and it would have been easy enough to have that pulled in with the package manager for something-or-other, but I just don't see those kind of files, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see developers' boxes without the ability to open them - especially Windows boxes, where you'd have to go find such a program and install yourself as opposed to it getting pulled in by the package manager. If you're trying to have an archival format that pretty much any computer can open out of the box, zip is the only option. If you're restricting yourself to Linux computers specifically, there are definitely more options, but Windows can only handle zip files. For all other archival formats, the user has to track down a program which can handle them. No, that's not hard, but it _does_ raise the bar of entry somewhat, and there's really nothing wrong with using zip. The problem is the slow server (though breaking up the package for each OS would help further).l - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 22 2011
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 22 2011
"Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1834.1324571496.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.
Dec 22 2011
"Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> wrote in message news:jcvmud$2d2h$1 digitalmars.com..."Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1834.1324571496.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...Additionally, sticking with zip-only is like sticking with mp3 for audio. Just let them die already! But that's never going to happen if people keep offering things in *just* zip or mp3. You know what gets me about this stuff? People have *no* problem expecting others to use multi-core, 64-bit, gobs of RAM, etc., all stuff you have to actually go out and buy, and sure, one could perhaps make an argument for that (that's completely beside my point here), BUT then expecting people (and not just ordinary people, but *programmers*) to upgrade from downright ancient *file formats* (ie, software-only) and suddenly there's a bunch of "Oh hell no!"On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.
Dec 22 2011
"Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> wrote in message news:jcvnmn$2ea8$1 digitalmars.com..."Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> wrote in message news:jcvmud$2d2h$1 digitalmars.com...Yet one more thing: The idea is to offer 7z as an alternative to zip, not a replacement. So with even that one point alone, the whole "access to a 7z program" issue goes away *completely*. Honestly, I don't see why there's even still a debate."Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1834.1324571496.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...Additionally, sticking with zip-only is like sticking with mp3 for audio. Just let them die already! But that's never going to happen if people keep offering things in *just* zip or mp3. You know what gets me about this stuff? People have *no* problem expecting others to have multi-core, 64-bit, gobs of RAM, etc., all stuff you have to actually go out and buy, and sure, one could perhaps make an argument for that (that's completely beside my point here), BUT then expecting people (and not just ordinary people, but *programmers*) to upgrade from downright ancient *file formats* (ie, software-only) and suddenly there's a bunch of "Oh hell no!"On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/11 10:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed."Wrong. Andrei
Dec 22 2011
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:jcvnrs$2e3f$2 digitalmars.com...On 12/22/11 10:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed."Wrong.
Dec 22 2011
On Thursday, 22 December 2011 at 17:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?There's simply no need for it.
Dec 22 2011
On 22/12/2011 17:13, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:On Thursday, 22 December 2011 at 17:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:That an individual just hasn't needed it *yet* isn't a valid argument either. A lot of technology would never have taken off if we used that excuse all the time. Stewart.Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?There's simply no need for it.
Dec 22 2011
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:07:30 +0200, Nick Sabalausky <a a.a> wrote:Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?How about... if you are a programmer of another compressing product?
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/11 11:07 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Andrei Alexandrescu"<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:jcvnrs$2e3f$2 digitalmars.com...I think it's sheer statistics, as odd as that might sound. I quite enjoy your rants, but after having seen a lot of them it seems to me (though I may be quite wrong) that your opinions and preferences are a couple of standard deviations away from the median. That is of course not bad. The most entertaining part is that this comes bundled with the firm conviction (or even unstated assumption) that everybody should hold, or already holds, the same belief as yours. There are some funny consequences to this. If something completely pisses you off, it might actually be an indication we're doing something right. And if you say something is perfect for you, that's almost always a reason to worry. AndreiOn 12/22/11 10:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed."Wrong.
Dec 22 2011
On Thursday, 22 December 2011 at 17:35:09 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Oof, I think saying that here was uncalled for. But seriously, I think this discussion is neglecting to account for the subjective aspects, mainly segmentation by operating system. This decade cross-platform software is becoming more ubiquitous, but it wasn't that long ago that GUI applications (the only kind regular users care about) that worked on different major platforms were exceedingly rare - and when you switched operating systems, you practically always had to simply look for analogies for the software you used on the old system. By this follows that the major OSes had their own established software packaging methods - installers and archives of various sorts on Windows, .dmg / .pkg / .sit for OS X, and tarballs for POSIX. Windows inherits much of its user base (and thus, user mannerisms) from the DOS days, back when there were dozens of archivers in common use (anyone remembers ARC, ARJ, LHA?). RAR and ZIP survived the test of time, with 7-Zip quickly gaining traction after its appearance due to improved compression algorithms. I know Nick uses Windows, same as myself, and from last I heard Andrei uses a Mac. So, it's no wonder that there's such a huge disconnect of opinion - the Mac software ecosystem lived (and still lives, to some extent) in its own different world.Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?There are some funny consequences to this. If something completely pisses you off, it might actually be an indication we're doing something right. And if you say something is perfect for you, that's almost always a reason to worry.
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/11 6:43 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Thursday, 22 December 2011 at 17:35:09 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Well Nick is not one to mince words so he probably won't be offended by the converse. I didn't mean my comment to be inflammatory at all.Oof, I think saying that here was uncalled for.Ok then, if you're claiming that I'm wrong and a programmer *does* have a legitimate excuse for not having a 7z-capable program, perhaps you could state what that legitimate excuse is instead of merely being contradictory?There are some funny consequences to this. If something completely pisses you off, it might actually be an indication we're doing something right. And if you say something is perfect for you, that's almost always a reason to worry.I know Nick uses Windows, same as myself, and from last I heard Andrei uses a Mac. So, it's no wonder that there's such a huge disconnect of opinion - the Mac software ecosystem lived (and still lives, to some extent) in its own different world.I use Mac and a couple of Unixen. The important part here is that we should be neither provincial nor blandly generic. Clearly we agree offering only 7z is not an option. The next question is whether we should offer it same placement as the .zip file or the native installer, and how to design the downloads page to avoid it being overcrowded. Andrei
Dec 22 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 01:18:22 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:The next question is whether we should offer it same placement as the .zip file or the native installer, and how to design the downloads page to avoid it being overcrowded.That's hardly a problem: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download.html Alternative: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download2.html
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/2011 5:31 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 01:18:22 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Eh, good point! Touche'The next question is whether we should offer it same placement as the .zip file or the native installer, and how to design the downloads page to avoid it being overcrowded.That's hardly a problem: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download.htmlAlternative: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download2.htmlUg.
Dec 22 2011
"Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> wrote in message news:hqqcksmduiecpiqtfztt dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net...On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 01:18:22 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Both are very nice. Maybe I'm biased from having read Walter's coment first, but I agree with him that the first one is nicer.The next question is whether we should offer it same placement as the .zip file or the native installer, and how to design the downloads page to avoid it being overcrowded.That's hardly a problem: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download.html Alternative: http://thecybershadow.net/d/download/download2.html
Dec 23 2011
"Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> wrote in message news:ejdbowcqhddtfrnxihzv dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net...By this follows that the major OSes had their own established software packaging methods - installers and archives of various sorts on Windows, .dmg / .pkg / .sit for OS X, and tarballs for POSIX. Windows inherits much of its user base (and thus, user mannerisms) from the DOS days, back when there were dozens of archivers in common use (anyone remembers ARC, ARJ, LHA?). RAR and ZIP survived the test of time, with 7-Zip quickly gaining traction after its appearance due to improved compression algorithms.Interestingly, in my experience, 7z seems to even beat .tar.bz2 by a non-trivial amount. That's why I've completely replaced all the of zips and tarballs for Goldie's packaged releases with 7z (and provided explanation/instructions in the docs: https://www.semitwist.com/goldie/Start/Install/#7z ).I know Nick uses Windows, same as myself, and from last I heard Andrei uses a Mac. So, it's no wonder that there's such a huge disconnect of opinion - the Mac software ecosystem lived (and still lives, to some extent) in its own different world.I'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.
Dec 23 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 17:13:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Interestingly, in my experience, 7z seems to even beat .tar.bz2 by a non-trivial amount.Slackware Linux recently changed from the old .tar.gz for it's distribution to .tar.xz - .xz uses the same algorithm as 7zip. I never cared much for bz2 myself. It's slightly better than gzip, but it comes at the cost of being slow as crap. xz seems ok on speed and pretty good at compressing though.I'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy.My condolences.
Dec 23 2011
On Friday, December 23, 2011 18:24:09 Adam D. Ruppe wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 17:13:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:In my experince, bzip2 gives comparable or better compression on smaller files (a few MB) but xz gives better compression on larger ones (e.g. your whole Linux install). However, I've also found xz to be _way_ worse on speed. Arch also switched from tar.gz to tar.xz not terribly long ago, and I really think that they should have juts been using tar.bz2, since unless the results that I've seen are abnormal, they're not getting any real benefit out of xz over bzip2 in terms of size (if anything, it's probably worse given the small size of most packages) and it's way worse in speed. - Jonathan M DavisInterestingly, in my experience, 7z seems to even beat .tar.bz2 by a non-trivial amount.Slackware Linux recently changed from the old .tar.gz for it's distribution to .tar.xz - .xz uses the same algorithm as 7zip. I never cared much for bz2 myself. It's slightly better than gzip, but it comes at the cost of being slow as crap. xz seems ok on speed and pretty good at compressing though.
Dec 23 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 17:24:10 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 17:13:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:The great thing about bzip2 is that it parallelizes much better than LZMA. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/02/file-compression-in-the-multi-core-era.html LZMA2 (available starting with 7-Zip 9.20) was created with parallelization in mind.Interestingly, in my experience, 7z seems to even beat .tar.bz2 by a non-trivial amount.Slackware Linux recently changed from the old .tar.gz for it's distribution to .tar.xz - .xz uses the same algorithm as 7zip. I never cared much for bz2 myself. It's slightly better than gzip, but it comes at the cost of being slow as crap.
Dec 23 2011
Le 23/12/2011 18:11, Nick Sabalausky a écrit :I'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM. I find virtualization gives the best of both worlds.
Dec 23 2011
"Somedude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> wrote in message news:jd2sci$9i8$1 digitalmars.com...Le 23/12/2011 18:11, Nick Sabalausky a écrit :Yea, VirtualBox is awesome. I've been making a lot of use of it. I do have a physical linux box too though, it's just not my primary system.I'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM. I find virtualization gives the best of both worlds.
Dec 23 2011
On Saturday, December 24, 2011 01:24:38 Nick Sabalausky wrote:Yea, VirtualBox is awesome. I've been making a lot of use of it. I do have a physical linux box too though, it's just not my primary system.VirtualBox is pretty much the only way that I use Windows these days, and even that isn't much. I need it for a few programs at work that I use sometimes, but about the only reason that I use Windows at home at this point is to verify that my changes to Phobos work in Windows. VirtualBox makes that much more pleasant. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 23 2011
On 2011-12-23 22:38, Somedude wrote:Le 23/12/2011 18:11, Nick Sabalausky a écrit :If one wants to use both Windows and Linux, running one native and one virtualized. Which one is best to run native and which one is best to run virtualized? -- /Jacob CarlborgI'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM. I find virtualization gives the best of both worlds.
Dec 24 2011
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:On 2011-12-23 22:38, Somedude wrote:It depends on how much you like Starcraft II.Le 23/12/2011 18:11, Nick Sabalausky a =E9crit :If one wants to use both Windows and Linux, running one native and one virtualized. Which one is best to run native and which one is best to run virtualized?I'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM. I find virtualization gives the best of both worlds.
Dec 24 2011
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message news:jd4qg2$9r5$1 digitalmars.com...On 2011-12-23 22:38, Somedude wrote:Dosn't really matter as far as I've ever been able to tell. I'd say whichever one you use more.Le 23/12/2011 18:11, Nick Sabalausky a écrit :If one wants to use both Windows and Linux, running one native and one virtualized. Which one is best to run nativeI'm actually inching closer to being a linux guy. Being able to easily script just about everything is pretty nice, and after Vista, Win7, and what I've seen of Win8, I've been loosing the loyalty I've had in windows since 3.1. (YMMV, of course). Don't know when I'll actually make the switch though, there's a few things I'd like to find/make for linux before I'd feel comfortable using it full time.You can virtualize if you have a good amount of RAM. I find virtualization gives the best of both worlds.and which one is best to run virtualized?The other one. :)
Dec 25 2011
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:jcvpod$2hcl$1 digitalmars.com...The most entertaining part is that this comes bundled with the firm conviction (or even unstated assumption) that everybody should hold, or already holds, the same belief as yours.Seriously? I don't mean this as an insult, but don't tell me this is as opposed to you?There are some funny consequences to this. If something completely pisses you off, it might actually be an indication we're doing something right. And if you say something is perfect for you, that's almost always a reason to worry.Wow, way to be an ass.
Dec 23 2011
On 12/23/11 10:49 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Andrei Alexandrescu"<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:jcvpod$2hcl$1 digitalmars.com...That came out the wrong way. Please accept my apologies. Thanks, AndreiThe most entertaining part is that this comes bundled with the firm conviction (or even unstated assumption) that everybody should hold, or already holds, the same belief as yours.Seriously? I don't mean this as an insult, but don't tell me this is as opposed to you?There are some funny consequences to this. If something completely pisses you off, it might actually be an indication we're doing something right. And if you say something is perfect for you, that's almost always a reason to worry.Wow, way to be an ass.
Dec 23 2011
Nick Sabalausky Wrote:"Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1834.1324571496.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...I like Nicks rant. I'll add my own: Fucking self extracting 7-zip! Easier than dumb zip on windows. Or it is not kosher by D's way ?On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-22 17:45, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.IIRC it's possible to just open the ZIP archive as a regular folder with the built-in support. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 22 2011
On 22/12/2011 17:27, Jacob Carlborg wrote: <snip>IIRC it's possible to just open the ZIP archive as a regular folder with the built-in support.It's possible to open the zip so that it looks superficially like a regular folder. And in doing so you can browse the files in the zip, copy them to somewhere else like regular files, and put files into the zip as if it's a folder. But IIRC you can't open and re-save files within the zip in-place. Nor can you view the zip in arbitrary apps as a regular folder, because this zip support is part of Explorer and not of the OS's implementation of the overall file system. And I've found it to be very slow. People are bound to look for something faster. And in doing so, might get 7z support as a bonus, thereby increasing the time saving further if only we added a 7z format DMD package. Indeed, it's probably for the better that the system doesn't try too hard to make zips behave like regular folders, as to do so would cause frustration when people try to use them as such and realise how slow it is. Disk compression utilities (such as Stacker and DriveSpace - what happened to these?) differ in a number of ways to compensate, which makes them unusable for packaging software for distribution. And even when used for what they're for, these utilities have their drawbacks. Any implementation of data compression that tries to make a compressed volume look like a regular disk, or an archive look like a regular folder, is an abstraction. And abstractions leak. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html OK, I know programming languages are abstractions too.... Stewart.
Dec 22 2011
"Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> wrote in message news:jd0q1h$12pu$1 digitalmars.com...On 22/12/2011 17:27, Jacob Carlborg wrote: <snip>Yea, it is better than the wizard, but it still doesn't compare to the "Right-Click"->"Extract"->Done that every other windows archiver on the planet supports (and some Linux file managers, too).IIRC it's possible to just open the ZIP archive as a regular folder with the built-in support.It's possible to open the zip so that it looks superficially like a regular folder. And in doing so you can browse the files in the zip, copy them to somewhere else like regular files, and put files into the zip as if it's a folder. But IIRC you can't open and re-save files within the zip in-place. Nor can you view the zip in arbitrary apps as a regular folder, because this zip support is part of Explorer and not of the OS's implementation of the overall file system. And I've found it to be very slow. People are bound to look for something faster. And in doing so, might get 7z support as a bonus, thereby increasing the time saving further if only we added a 7z format DMD package.
Dec 23 2011
On 22.12.2011 17:45, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Jonathan M Davis"<jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1834.1324571496.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...According to sourceforge, 7zip for Windows was downloaded 100 million times last year. WinRAR is probably a lot more popular than 7zip. There are about 1000 million PCs in use worldwide, so it sounds like > 25% of all Windows users have 7z support. Among developers it must be much higher - maybe 90% ?On Thursday, December 22, 2011 06:25:42 a wrote:Once again: 1. "If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program [EDIT: such as WinRAR, for instance] installed." 2. "What the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows?" Even *in addition* to all of that, the built-in windows support for zip is *extremely* dummy^H^H^H^H^Haverage-Joe -oriented. Page after page of hand-holding "wizard" *just* to "extract here"? I can't imagine any programmer or power user even being capable of putting up with that for more than a few days before finally just grabbing WinRAR, etc. And I'm not just speculating: Honestly, I've never even known *one* programmer or power user who actually used Windows's built-in zip support.Why are you ignoring the statement about 7z having the same accessibility level as rar? Rar files are not rare and users who can open rar files (on Windows usually with WinRAR or 7zip) can also open 7z files.But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.
Dec 24 2011
But not without installing 3rd party software. Windows can handle zip files out of the box. It can't handle the others. rar would have exactly the same problem as 7z files (though from what I've see rar files are much more commonly used). We _could_ use a file format other than zip, but then we'd be requiring that the user download a 3rd party app just to be able to open the file, which is _not_ the case with zip.Availability is achieved by native installers, and AFAIK we have them - installers for Mac, Win, and a bunch for Lin. Copy-deployment is an advanced format, and I think it's pretty ok for it to be 7z. It's not very easy to begin with: you have to figure out how to install it - it's a matter of convention which is yet to get, where to install it, cope with privilege restrictions etc.
Dec 25 2011
Kagamin:Copy-deployment is an advanced format, and I think it's pretty ok for it to be 7z.I suggest to just offer both zip and 7zip files. Bye, bearophile
Dec 25 2011
I suggest to just offer both zip and 7zip files.Sure it can be done, but I doubt zip helps availability a lot.
Dec 25 2011
El 22/12/2011 8:03, Jonathan M Davis escribió:On Thursday, December 22, 2011 01:53:00 Nick Sabalausky wrote:I use 7zip everyday and where I work it has become the most common archive format (we use Windows and Linux), 7zip is installed by the IT people as part of the basic software just as an antivirus and an office suite. And compared to WinRar, 7zip and the 7z format are free and open. When packing lots of small files (like in source distributions) 7z is much better than Zip. Other software distributions already switched to 7z from zip (don't remember which now).If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed. Christ, even the "least-common-denominator" piracy scene has standardized on rar which has *exactly* the same accessibility level as 7z. (All the major rar programs on windows already support 7z, and on unix, getting 7z is a one-liner, no harder than getting rar: On debian-based: "sudo apt-get install p7zip-full" - *if* it isn't already installed by default, which it often is.) I'm normally one of the biggest fans of "don't exclude anyone", but what the hell programmer is limited to whatever archive support just happens to be built into Windows? Seriously, who *doesn't* have at the very least WinRAR, or something akin to it? I'm personally ok with DMD coming in zip, but zip's alleged ubiquity is just not a valid reason.I don't even know the last time that I saw a 7zip file. They're incredibly rare in my experience. I probably have a program installed on my system which will open them, since I'm running Linux, and it would have been easy enough to have that pulled in with the package manager for something-or-other, but I just don't see those kind of files, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see developers' boxes without the ability to open them - especially Windows boxes, where you'd have to go find such a program and install yourself as opposed to it getting pulled in by the package manager. If you're trying to have an archival format that pretty much any computer can open out of the box, zip is the only option. If you're restricting yourself to Linux computers specifically, there are definitely more options, but Windows can only handle zip files. For all other archival formats, the user has to track down a program which can handle them. No, that's not hard, but it _does_ raise the bar of entry somewhat, and there's really nothing wrong with using zip. The problem is the slow server (though breaking up the package for each OS would help further).l - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 22 2011
Le 23/12/2011 00:35, Alvaro a écrit :I use 7zip everyday and where I work it has become the most common archive format (we use Windows and Linux), 7zip is installed by the IT people as part of the basic software just as an antivirus and an office suite.Same here. 7zip is becoming ubiquitous.
Dec 23 2011
On 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers. AndreiOn 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 22 2011
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:44:08 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers.Agreed. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 22 2011
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:44:08 -0800, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:On 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:In the faster servers department I agree. I have a 25Mbps fiber connection and the download tops out around 300Kbps. Have you considered Amazon S3 for storing your larger files? It's plenty fast and quite cheap, we use it at work because for large files versus delivery costs, it beats everything else on the planet. If you want you can even setup multiple zones so that Europeans can contact a server that is close to them and Staters can contact one in the US. Just my 0.02$. -- Adam Wilson Project Coordinator The Horizon Project http://www.thehorizonproject.org/"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers. AndreiOn 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 22 2011
for storing your larger files? It's plenty fast and quite cheap, we use it at work because for large files versus delivery costs, it beats everything else on the planet.Are you serious? Data transfer prices at Amazon are *very* high. According to http://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/ the price is 0.12$/GB (for up to 10TB/month). I don't know about US, but at EU vps hosts prices are closer to 0.01$/GB (see for example http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_vserver/vq7 )
Dec 22 2011
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:00:59 -0800, a <a a.com> wrote:I guess it's all about point-of-view. Compartively, in the US, Amazon's prices are dirt cheap per GB. And I would point at that hosting all of the D downloads in Europe would be a less than ideal plan due to the limited bandwidth across the Atlantic. Also Amazon has significantly faster connections than are typically available with VPS hosting. And also consider the ability of Amazon to store the files in multiple regional datacenters, this would allow Europeans, such as yourself, to download D without having to traverse the Atlantic as you do today, and would allow Staters to continue to enjoy their direct access without the intervening Atlantic. In the end, my argument would be that you get what you pay for, and Amazon's services and guarantees far exceed what your typical VPS host offers. *Shrug* Personally, I have no dog in this fight, but the Amazon solution is technically better, if slightly more expensive. But then again, I don't see 1.20$ as too much for 10GB/month. -- Adam Wilson Project Coordinator The Horizon Project http://www.thehorizonproject.org/for storing your larger files? It's plenty fast and quite cheap, we use it at work because for large files versus delivery costs, it beats everything else on the planet.Are you serious? Data transfer prices at Amazon are *very* high. According to http://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/ the price is 0.12$/GB (for up to 10TB/month). I don't know about US, but at EU vps hosts prices are closer to 0.01$/GB (see for example http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_vserver/vq7 )
Dec 22 2011
I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source release. DMD d= oesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, and we can't expect p= eople to pull the git repo.=20 Sent from my iPhone On Dec 22, 2011, at 8:44 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.= org> wrote:On 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:g"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...On 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. =20 I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.=20 Because it's annoying. =20 The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searchin=sthe intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading i=a virus, etc., is annoying.=20 If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no=nd by using faster servers.excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.=20 I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. =20 Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used a==20 =20 Andrei =20 =20
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-22 18:13, Sean Kelly wrote:I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, and we can't expect people to pull the git repo.The sources are already included. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 22 2011
On Dec 22, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:On 2011-12-22 18:13, Sean Kelly wrote:release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, = and we can't expect people to pull the git repo.I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source ==20 The sources are already included.For the compiler as well?=
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-23 00:32, Sean Kelly wrote:On Dec 22, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:Yes, for the compiler, Phobos and druntime. -- /Jacob CarlborgOn 2011-12-22 18:13, Sean Kelly wrote:For the compiler as well?I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, and we can't expect people to pull the git repo.The sources are already included.
Dec 22 2011
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message news:jd0eu8$i2l$1 digitalmars.com...On 2011-12-23 00:32, Sean Kelly wrote:But not RDMD. That's such an important tool, its source really should be included: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=6412On Dec 22, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:Yes, for the compiler, Phobos and druntime.On 2011-12-22 18:13, Sean Kelly wrote:For the compiler as well?I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, and we can't expect people to pull the git repo.The sources are already included.
Dec 23 2011
On Dec 22, 2011, at 3:32 PM, Sean Kelly wrote:On Dec 22, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: =20release. DMD doesn't even run out of the box on all flavors of Linux, = and we can't expect people to pull the git repo.On 2011-12-22 18:13, Sean Kelly wrote:I'd like to see a separate package per platform plus a source =You're right. Goes to show how often I look at the zip file contents. = My bad.=20 The sources are already included.=20 For the compiler as well?
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-22 17:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Me neither, unless The Unarchiver can open it. -- /Jacob Carlborg"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers. AndreiOn 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 22 2011
Jacob Carlborg Wrote:On 2011-12-22 17:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:It can: http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiverOn 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Me neither, unless The Unarchiver can open it. -- /Jacob Carlborg"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers. AndreiOn 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-23 03:13, a wrote:Jacob Carlborg Wrote:Cool. -- /Jacob CarlborgOn 2011-12-22 17:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:It can: http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiverOn 12/22/11 12:53 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:Me neither, unless The Unarchiver can open it. -- /Jacob Carlborg"Walter Bright"<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jcsbja$1pu7$1 digitalmars.com...I didn't have 7z on my Mac until yesterday when I experimented with it. Let's focus on reducing the size of the zip by only including what's used and by using faster servers. AndreiOn 12/21/2011 1:31 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:If you're a programmer, or even just a power user, you have absolutely no excuse not to *already* have a 7z-capable program installed.I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Because it's annoying. The idea should be to have as few steps as possible to install. Searching the intarnets for a 7z decoder, wondering if the one you're downloading is a virus, etc., is annoying.
Dec 23 2011
Am 21.12.2011, 10:31 Uhr, schrieb Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com>:I thought the installers were for newbies. 7z is supported by 7zip, winrar, and even winzip. I really don't see how someone can be smart enough to use a systems programming language but not have a clue how to download an archiver. Even average people hate the default zip functionality of Windows and they install 7zip/winrar/etc.Thx!! :D
Dec 21 2011
Pretty much nothing other than zip is Windows friendly.In fact, software support is where linux sucks badly and can only dream about windows level support. If people can live without an archiver, a browser and a cellular, they can live without a computer as well.
Dec 21 2011
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:57:28 +0200, Trass3r <un known.com> wrote:The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Do we have to choose one over another? No, we can have both.
Dec 21 2011
On 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/2011 4:41 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:On 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:I often wonder why the zip file format doesn't incorporate 7z.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM.
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 19:30:55 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:I often wonder why the zip file format doesn't incorporate 7z.ZIP and 7z are nothing more than a container. The default and usually only supported compression method in .zip files is deflate - the very same one used in gzip and usually created/decoded with the zlib library. 7z can contain data packed in many formats (as supported by 7-Zip, the standard implementation), but the most common one is LZMA. LZMA (the Lempel–Ziv–Markov chain algorithm) has been developed by Igor Pavlov (7-Zip's creator) since 1998. LZMA is frequently used outside 7-Zip (e.g. there are *nix LZMA tools, similar to gzip, with which you can easily create .tar.lzma archives). Now, to answer your question: according to their website, WinZip starting with version 12 supports creating ZIP archives with LZMA compression - but, of course, to unpack them you need an archiving tool that can understand such ZIP files. It's likely that such software is even more rare that 7-Zip itself, and will result in more confusion ("Why can't I open this ZIP file? I can open any other ZIP file but not this one...").
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/2011 12:58 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Now, to answer your question: according to their website, WinZip starting with version 12 supports creating ZIP archives with LZMA compression - but, of course, to unpack them you need an archiving tool that can understand such ZIP files. It's likely that such software is even more rare that 7-Zip itself, and will result in more confusion ("Why can't I open this ZIP file? I can open any other ZIP file but not this one...").I understand that issue. The idea is to support it, at least for unzipping, in all new versions, and gradually that support will filter out into the community.
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 22:53:06 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:I understand that issue. The idea is to support it, at least for unzipping, in all new versions, and gradually that support will filter out into the community.All new versions of what? There is no "standard" implementation, like there is with 7-Zip. PK-WARE, the creator of the ZIP format, has practically no share on the desktop. The thought makes about as much sense as expecting new features in tar or JPEG. A correction to my previous post: WinZip 12 uses a new file extension (.zipx) for its new features, including LZMA compression.
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/11 4:53 PM, Walter Bright wrote:On 12/21/2011 12:58 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:I repeat, this is a communal waste of time. I just downloaded and re-compressed everything with 7zip, the reduction was not spectacular at all - from 21.8MB to 17.3MB. Also I had to take the detour of downloading and installing 7zip for Mac. We need to reduce the files going into the archive and get onto a faster site. Keeping only OSX relevant files and recompressing with zip (which is built-in OSX's contextual menu) creates an archive of 11.2 MB. Doing so with 7zip yields an archive of 8.2 MB. That's more like it. AndreiNow, to answer your question: according to their website, WinZip starting with version 12 supports creating ZIP archives with LZMA compression - but, of course, to unpack them you need an archiving tool that can understand such ZIP files. It's likely that such software is even more rare that 7-Zip itself, and will result in more confusion ("Why can't I open this ZIP file? I can open any other ZIP file but not this one...").I understand that issue. The idea is to support it, at least for unzipping, in all new versions, and gradually that support will filter out into the community.
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:34:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:I just downloaded and re-compressed everything with 7zip, the reduction was not spectacular at all - from 21.8MB to 17.3MB.Bwuh? I'm seeing a reduction to 11.6MB (10.5 with ultra compression).
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/11 5:37 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:34:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:I used the standard settings. After tweaking stuff, I got 5.5 MB for the OSX necessary files only. The point is a smaller .zip and a faster site will benefit *everyone*. For extra benefit of 7z users, fine, we can add that option. But it shouldn't be the only one and the focus of our initial efforts. AndreiI just downloaded and re-compressed everything with 7zip, the reduction was not spectacular at all - from 21.8MB to 17.3MB.Bwuh? I'm seeing a reduction to 11.6MB (10.5 with ultra compression).
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:46:12 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On 12/21/11 5:37 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:That's true. 7-Zip reduces the download size (and thus, speed) by at most one half. From a quick test just now, ftp.digitalmars.com is FIFTY times slower than Ubuntu's download servers for me.On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:34:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:I used the standard settings. After tweaking stuff, I got 5.5 MB for the OSX necessary files only. The point is a smaller .zip and a faster site will benefit *everyone*. For extra benefit of 7z users, fine, we can add that option. But it shouldn't be the only one and the focus of our initial efforts.I just downloaded and re-compressed everything with 7zip, the reduction was not spectacular at all - from 21.8MB to 17.3MB.Bwuh? I'm seeing a reduction to 11.6MB (10.5 with ultra compression).
Dec 21 2011
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:jctqef$1ac2$1 digitalmars.com...On 12/21/11 4:53 PM, Walter Bright wrote:Those results are all because it's difficult to find good software for Macs. I just downloaded the 2.056 zip (18.8 MB) to both my windows machine and my (k)ubuntu machine[*]. I extracted it, and then recompressed to 7z. With the *default* settings, the default program on kubuntu gave me 10.2 MB. On Windows, 7zip gave me 9.6 MB. So, yea, good luck finding good Mac software. [*] Why not 2.057? Because it's late and I wasn't thinking ;)On 12/21/2011 12:58 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:I repeat, this is a communal waste of time. I just downloaded and re-compressed everything with 7zip, the reduction was not spectacular at all - from 21.8MB to 17.3MB. Also I had to take the detour of downloading and installing 7zip for Mac.Now, to answer your question: according to their website, WinZip starting with version 12 supports creating ZIP archives with LZMA compression - but, of course, to unpack them you need an archiving tool that can understand such ZIP files. It's likely that such software is even more rare that 7-Zip itself, and will result in more confusion ("Why can't I open this ZIP file? I can open any other ZIP file but not this one...").I understand that issue. The idea is to support it, at least for unzipping, in all new versions, and gradually that support will filter out into the community.We need to reduce the files going into the archive and get onto a faster site.I can't disagree with that.
Dec 21 2011
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message news:jcsk6i$27tq$2 digitalmars.com...On 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:Yea, so 7z would need to be an option, rather than the only option. The raises a side-point though: It would be great to have 7z support in Phobos. Or at least in Deimos just for starters.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM.
Dec 21 2011
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 02:21:14 Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message news:jcsk6i$27tq$2 digitalmars.com...One of those things that probably requires that streams be implemented. Once that's done, we should be able to make Phobos support a variety of archival formats. - Jonathan M DavisOn 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:Yea, so 7z would need to be an option, rather than the only option. The raises a side-point though: It would be great to have 7z support in Phobos. Or at least in Deimos just for starters.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM.
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/2011 11:37 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:On Thursday, December 22, 2011 02:21:14 Nick Sabalausky wrote:Yes. And tar, etc.The raises a side-point though: It would be great to have 7z support in Phobos. Or at least in Deimos just for starters.One of those things that probably requires that streams be implemented.No. Ranges. RANGES!!!
Dec 22 2011
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 00:08:59 Walter Bright wrote:Yes, they'll be ranges, but we need the buffered stream support in order to properly implement those ranges. - Jonathan M DavisOne of those things that probably requires that streams be implemented.No. Ranges. RANGES!!!
Dec 22 2011
Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message news:jcsk6i$27tq$2 digitalmars.com...Not sure if there's a ready to use, cross platform 7z library. LZMA compression is supported by liblzma, but it doesn't support the 7z container (it uses .tar.xz or no container instead) https://github.com/D-Programming-Deimos/liblzmaOn 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:Yea, so 7z would need to be an option, rather than the only option. The raises a side-point though: It would be great to have 7z support in Phobos. Or at least in Deimos just for starters.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM.
Dec 22 2011
On 2011-12-22 08:21, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Jacob Carlborg"<doob me.com> wrote in message news:jcsk6i$27tq$2 digitalmars.com...Yeah, that wouldn't hurt. -- /Jacob CarlborgOn 2011-12-20 20:57, Trass3r wrote:Yea, so 7z would need to be an option, rather than the only option. The raises a side-point though: It would be great to have 7z support in Phobos. Or at least in Deimos just for starters.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Switching away from zip could break several installation scripts/tools, it will break DVM.
Dec 22 2011
On 20/12/2011 19:57, Trass3r wrote:The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.The size doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is how long it takes to download... The digitalmars server is incredibly slow. There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Dec 21 2011
On 2011-12-21 14:22, Robert Clipsham wrote:On 20/12/2011 19:57, Trass3r wrote:I completely agree with that. -- /Jacob CarlborgThe ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.The size doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is how long it takes to download... The digitalmars server is incredibly slow. There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/11 7:22 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:On 20/12/2011 19:57, Trass3r wrote:This. The whole discussion has unnecessarily been derailed on one aspect, and most likely not the most important. We need to reduce the distribution size, e.g. not distribute binaries for all OSs. This will slash download size much more than any compressor. We need to use a faster site. Changing the compressor is a distant third... yet everybody's latched on that. AndreiThe ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.The size doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is how long it takes to download... The digitalmars server is incredibly slow. There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.
Dec 21 2011
Everybody is latched on to that because Walter can't get a move on. Didn't we say a million times already to not pack everything into a giant zip file? Also, DMD is not distributable by anyone but Walter, so again we have to wait for his move to host DMD+Phobos binaries somewhere else.
Dec 21 2011
"Andrej Mitrovic" <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1799.1324487482.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...Everybody is latched on to that because Walter can't get a move on. Didn't we say a million times already to not pack everything into a giant zip file? Also, DMD is not distributable+...without easily-obtainable permission...by anyone but Walter, so again we have to wait for his move to host DMD+Phobos binaries somewhere else.Fixed
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/2011 5:22 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:On 12/21/2011 5:22 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/11 5:45 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:1. How do we do that programmatically? 2. Disk usage seems to be at 50% already... AndreiOn 12/21/2011 5:22 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?
Dec 21 2011
On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:48:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On 12/21/11 5:45 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Downloads are programmable with GitHub's API. They have an easy-to-use script, too: https://github.com/github/uploadOn Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:1. How do we do that programmatically?Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.2. Disk usage seems to be at 50% already...You can get more disk space by asking (it's a soft limit, they usually expand it for open-source projects - not sure if DMD qualifies, though), or by getting a paid account.
Dec 21 2011
On 12/21/11 5:52 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:48:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:I got the uploading script, and now I'm trying: ./github_upload test andralex/phobos where test is a zero-bytes file. The script yields: ERROR: Target file does not exist Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong? Thanks, AndreiOn 12/21/11 5:45 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Downloads are programmable with GitHub's API. They have an easy-to-use script, too: https://github.com/github/uploadOn Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:1. How do we do that programmatically?Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.
Dec 23 2011
On 12/23/11 2:48 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:On 12/21/11 5:52 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Oops, the code emits that error for files of size zero. Now I wrote a few bytes to the file, and now the script says: /Users/aalexandre/.gem/ruby/1.8/gems/xml-simple-1.1.1/lib/xmlsimple.rb:990:in `find_xml_file': File does not exist: {"policy":"ewogICAgJ2V4cGlyYXRpb24nOiAnMjExMS0xMi0yM1QwODo1NDowOC4wMDBaJywKICAgICdjb25kaXRpb25zJzogWwogICAgICAgIHsnYnVja2V0JzogJ2dpdGh1Yid9LAogICAgICAgIHsna2V5JzogJ2Rvd25sb2Fkcy9hbmRyYWxleC9waG9ib3MvdGVzdCd9LAogICAgICAgIHsnYWNsJzogJ3B1YmxpYy1yZWFkJ30sCiAgICAgICAgeydzdWNjZXNzX2FjdGlvbl9zdGF0dXMnOiAnMjAxJ30sCiAgICAgICAgWydzdGFydHMtd2l0aCcsICckRmlsZW5hbWUnLCAnJ10sCiAgICAgICAgWydzdGFydHMtd2l0aCcsICckQ29udGVudC1UeXBlJywgJyddCiAgICBdCn0=","redirect":false,"accesskeyid":"1DWESVTPGHQVTX38V182","signature":"lJ03J9S8YTrKnMC9ugK3IRXynM8=","prefix":"downloads/andralex/phobos","mime_type":"application/octet-stream","bucket":"github","expirationdate":"2111-12-23T08:54:08.000Z","acl":"public-read","path":"downloads/and alex/phobos/test"}. (ArgumentError) from /Users/aalexandre/.gem/ruby/1.8/gems/xml-simple-1.1.1/lib/xmlsimple.rb:168:in `xml_in' from /Users/aalexandre/.gem/ruby/1.8/gems/xml-simple-1.1.1/lib/xmlsimple.rb:203:in `xml_in' from ./github_upload:102 What am I doing wrong? Thanks, AndreiOn Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:48:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:I got the uploading script, and now I'm trying: ../github_upload test andralex/phobos where test is a zero-bytes file. The script yields: ERROR: Target file does not existOn 12/21/11 5:45 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Downloads are programmable with GitHub's API. They have an easy-to-use script, too: https://github.com/github/uploadOn Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:1. How do we do that programmatically?Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.
Dec 23 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 08:56:09 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:What am I doing wrong?The script suffered some bitrot. The version I posted in IRC works for me on both Ruby 1.8 and 1.9: http://dump.thecybershadow.net/7f0b3e4b56df6bf78382f6161115f7e1/github_upload.rb Prodded GitHub support to have a look at the pull requests, too...
Dec 23 2011
On 12/23/11 3:49 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 08:56:09 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:Works, thanks! One problem remains, we need the script to also remove the old file... right now the second attempt to upload fails with /Users/aalexandre/.gem/ruby/1.8/gems/json-1.6.3/lib/json/common.rb:148:in `parse': 751: unexpected token at 'Filename has already been taken' (JSON::ParserError) from /Users/aalexandre/.gem/ruby/1.8/gems/json-1.6.3/lib/json/common.rb:148:in `parse' from ./github_upload:102 In fact in an ideal world the script would upload to a temporary file and then move the temporary file into the target file atomically, so as to not disrupt downloads for the duration of the upload. AndreiWhat am I doing wrong?The script suffered some bitrot. The version I posted in IRC works for me on both Ruby 1.8 and 1.9: http://dump.thecybershadow.net/7f0b3e4b56df6bf78382f6161115f7e1/github_upload.rb Prodded GitHub support to have a look at the pull requests, too...
Dec 23 2011
On 12/21/2011 3:45 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Wednesday, 21 December 2011 at 23:38:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:Thank you. I will investigate.On 12/21/2011 5:22 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:1) Go to a GitHub project 2) Open the Downloads tab 3) Click "Choose a new file" 4) Enter a short description 5) Click "Start Upload" That's all. You can even link directly to GitHub downloads.There's no excuse for that, there are quite literally hundreds of sites that will host packages for you, including github.Hmm, can you explain more about hosting the zip files on github?
Dec 21 2011
On 20/12/2011 19:57, Trass3r wrote:The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Moreover, what zip compressor is being used? Some are stronger than others. 7-zip claims to compress zips better than WinZip/PKZIP. The website http://www.7-zip.org/ gives benchmarks, but it isn't clear which compression formats the WinRAR and CABARC figures are actually on about. And 7-zip is free. I second the idea of having both 7z and zip available. Stewart.
Dec 21 2011
The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.*+1* on desktop i'm mostly a windows guy and since the days of windows 95 my first step after a clean system setup has been always to install a 3rd party file archiver utility. i remember it was winzip in the beginning, shortly after replaced by winrar. i used those archivers until i discovered a file manager (and norton commander clone) named total commander which supports most common compression formats. instead of the windows explorer i use this piece of software for about a decade now. i haven't known that windows supports the zip format out of the box until i read about it here today! when i take a look at my "downloads/dev/" folder (which contains mostly compressed source code) i see a majority of zip archives, followed by tar.gz, bz2 and then 7z. the rar format was once known as the optimum for compressing multimedia files and was and is still used a lot for (illegal) file sharing. however rar is starting to become replaced by 7z in the latter use case and will be the de facto standard for compressing big files (GB) in the near future. i use 7z myself for backups for a couple of years now and if i have the choice i will always download 7z first, in absence look for tgz and choose zip always last if there's nothing else available. yes, i might be old fashioned and i'm pretty aware that both ram and disk space is cheap but shouldn't we (developers and engineers) also be at the forefront to push and introduce new technologies? isn't this even our collective responsibility? choice is good. let's make as much formats as download available as possible and let the user decide. the download statistics might be a surprise for some people. </rant>
Dec 22 2011
On 22.12.2011 20:27, Mirko Pilger wrote:Don't the keyboards on your planet have Shift keys?The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.*+1* on desktop i'm mostly a windows guy and since the days of windows 95 my first step after a clean system setup has been always to install a 3rd party file archiver utility. i remember it was winzip in the beginning, shortly after replaced by winrar. i used those archivers until i discovered a file manager (and norton commander clone) named total commander which supports most common compression formats. instead of the windows explorer i use this piece of software for about a decade now. i haven't known that windows supports the zip format out of the box until i read about it here today! when i take a look at my "downloads/dev/" folder (which contains mostly compressed source code) i see a majority of zip archives, followed by tar.gz, bz2 and then 7z. the rar format was once known as the optimum for compressing multimedia files and was and is still used a lot for (illegal) file sharing. however rar is starting to become replaced by 7z in the latter use case and will be the de facto standard for compressing big files (GB) in the near future. i use 7z myself for backups for a couple of years now and if i have the choice i will always download 7z first, in absence look for tgz and choose zip always last if there's nothing else available. yes, i might be old fashioned and i'm pretty aware that both ram and disk space is cheap but shouldn't we (developers and engineers) also be at the forefront to push and introduce new technologies? isn't this even our collective responsibility? choice is good. let's make as much formats as download available as possible and let the user decide. the download statistics might be a surprise for some people. </rant>
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/2011 11:27 AM, Mirko Pilger wrote:i use 7z myself for backups for a couple of years nowI quit using compression for backups. The problem was that if the backup media lost even one bit, you lose the entirety of the compressed file(s). Yes, this happened. It's also a problem because my file searching programs don't look inside compressed files.
Dec 22 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 03:24:27 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:On 12/22/2011 11:27 AM, Mirko Pilger wrote:RAR (and some others) supports "recovery records" and "recovery volumes" (redundant data). The cool thing about them is that with a recovery record of 10%, ANY 10% of the archive's blocks may be lost and the entire archive can be recovered. It was a life-saver back in the days of floppies.i use 7z myself for backups for a couple of years nowI quit using compression for backups. The problem was that if the backup media lost even one bit, you lose the entirety of the compressed file(s). Yes, this happened. It's also a problem because my file searching programs don't look inside compressed files.
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/2011 7:30 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:RAR (and some others) supports "recovery records" and "recovery volumes" (redundant data). The cool thing about them is that with a recovery record of 10%, ANY 10% of the archive's blocks may be lost and the entire archive can be recovered. It was a life-saver back in the days of floppies.I also worried about not having the right uncompressor when I needed it.
Dec 22 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 03:46:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:On 12/22/2011 7:30 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Easily mitigated by putting decompression software on the same media, or by creating self-extracting archives. Then you only need to worry about having the right platform/architecture :) I've burned about 100 DVDs back when hard drives were in the 10s and 100s of GBs. Another useful trick was storing a full catalog (file listings) of all past burned DVDs on each disc.RAR (and some others) supports "recovery records" and "recovery volumes" (redundant data). The cool thing about them is that with a recovery record of 10%, ANY 10% of the archive's blocks may be lost and the entire archive can be recovered. It was a life-saver back in the days of floppies.I also worried about not having the right uncompressor when I needed it.
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/2011 7:50 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 03:46:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:Not that easy, because will you really have the right platform 30 years from now? One of the reasons I switched from Outlook Express to Thunderbird for email was the latter stored the messages in plaintext, while the former in some secret encrypted/compressed format. What are the odds you'll be able to get OE to run 30 years from now?On 12/22/2011 7:30 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:Easily mitigated by putting decompression software on the same media, or by creating self-extracting archives. Then you only need to worry about having the right platform/architecture :)RAR (and some others) supports "recovery records" and "recovery volumes" (redundant data). The cool thing about them is that with a recovery record of 10%, ANY 10% of the archive's blocks may be lost and the entire archive can be recovered. It was a life-saver back in the days of floppies.I also worried about not having the right uncompressor when I needed it.I've burned about 100 DVDs back when hard drives were in the 10s and 100s of GBs. Another useful trick was storing a full catalog (file listings) of all past burned DVDs on each disc.Fortunately, because of the growth in capacity, carrying forward my media gets easier and easier. In the beginning of the world, when we were all worried about the coming ice age, I had punch card decks. They're all gone, I have no recollection of what I did with them. Then, I had paper tape. None of them survived. Then, I had DECtapes. None of them survived. I had a DEC magtape, but the tape drive was so out of spec that it was the only machine that could read them. That drive was long gone, so I throw my magtape in the trash. I had a couple paper code listings I used as desperation backups. I did use a phone line and dumped my code to the screen, and captured the output and wrote them to 8" floppies. These actually did survive until last year, when a friend fired up his old PDP-11 which hadn't been run for years, and copied all the floppies and emailed me the files. Whew! (I threw away the floppies after that.) Then, the era of the 5.25 floppy began. I still have boxes full of them. I copied the floppies to a CD. They all fit on one CD. Then copied the CDs to DVDs. Then the DVDs to hard disks. Then the hard disks to Amazon S3, and that's where I'm at now. My oldest file I still have is from 1977. The floppy data all sit in a tiny corner of my hard disk.
Dec 22 2011
On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 05:18:30 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:Not that easy, because will you really have the right platform 30 years from now?Enthusiasts have created portable open-source software emulators for many old platforms. Hell, you can boot Linux[1] (and UNIX V6 on a PDP-11, for the other side of the spectrum[2]) in your web browser these days! I would say that today's hardware architectures (and those from the past two decades) have acquired enough mass that they'll be accessible for the foreseeable future (our lifespans), mainly thanks to open-source emulators. The main problem is with copyrighted software: you can't buy a new copy of Windows 95, but you can't download it legally either. Of course, storage media is a different matter.One of the reasons I switched from Outlook Express to Thunderbird for email was the latter stored the messages in plaintext, while the former in some secret encrypted/compressed format. What are the odds you'll be able to get OE to run 30 years from now?Indeed, proprietary file formats are the bane of archival. It doesn't seem to stop other software from importing data from them, though. Didn't Thunderbird have a feature to import data from Outlook Express? Even using open-source software that stores data in simple formats may not be very futureproof. Future versions of Thunderbird may convert the data to another format, without even notifying the user (after all, the great majority of users don't care about such things). Remaining on an old version is risky due to discovered security vulnerabilities.My oldest file I still have is from 1977. The floppy data all sit in a tiny corner of my hard disk.Wow :) [1]: http://bellard.org/jslinux/ [2]: http://pdp11.aiju.de/
Dec 22 2011
On 12/22/2011 9:53 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:On Friday, 23 December 2011 at 05:18:30 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:That's why I mentioned Outlook Express. I used to use a wave editor. My disk crashed, and I reformatted and reinstalled Windows. I installed the wave editor, but had lost the password to unlock it. The company that made it had gone bust. I eventually did find the password, but I was s.o.l. with its data files without it.Not that easy, because will you really have the right platform 30 years from now?Enthusiasts have created portable open-source software emulators for many old platforms. Hell, you can boot Linux[1] (and UNIX V6 on a PDP-11, for the other side of the spectrum[2]) in your web browser these days! I would say that today's hardware architectures (and those from the past two decades) have acquired enough mass that they'll be accessible for the foreseeable future (our lifespans), mainly thanks to open-source emulators. The main problem is with copyrighted software: you can't buy a new copy of Windows 95, but you can't download it legally either.Indeed, proprietary file formats are the bane of archival. It doesn't seem to stop other software from importing data from them, though. Didn't Thunderbird have a feature to import data from Outlook Express?Yup. Would you know that 30 years from now?
Dec 22 2011
"Walter Bright" <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:jd16vm$1oos$1 digitalmars.com...I used to use a wave editor. My disk crashed, and I reformatted and reinstalled Windows. I installed the wave editor, but had lost the password to unlock it. The company that made it had gone bust.Yup, that's one of the reasons I try to steer clear of any DRMed or proprietary anything.
Dec 23 2011
"Mirko Pilger" <mirko.pilger gmail.com> wrote in message news:jd005s$2kp3$1 digitalmars.com...I've had Total Commander on my computer for at least a year or two. Personally, I find it awkward, but I *love* the multi-rename feature.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.*+1* on desktop i'm mostly a windows guy and since the days of windows 95 my first step after a clean system setup has been always to install a 3rd party file archiver utility. i remember it was winzip in the beginning, shortly after replaced by winrar. i used those archivers until i discovered a file manager (and norton commander clone) named total commander which supports most common compression formats. instead of the windows explorer i use this piece of software for about a decade now.i use 7z myself for backups for a couple of years now and if i have the choice i will always download 7z first, in absence look for tgz and choose zip always last if there's nothing else available. yes, i might be old fashioned and i'm pretty aware that both ram and disk space is cheap but shouldn't we (developers and engineers) also be at the forefront to push and introduce new technologies? isn't this even our collective responsibility?Yea, this is exactly how I feel about it, too.
Dec 23 2011
Le 20/12/2011 20:57, Trass3r a écrit :The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Wow, this thread sounds to me like a lot of noise for nothing. Meanwhile, Andrew Wiley received no response for his thread "Some Issues with Synchronized".
Dec 23 2011
Somedude Wrote:Le 20/12/2011 20:57, Trass3r a écrit :It's a taboo topic. They will look into it after they discontinue D1 and find that D2 isn't ready yet.The ftp is not the fastest one and 7z reduces the size by 40%.Wow, this thread sounds to me like a lot of noise for nothing. Meanwhile, Andrew Wiley received no response for his thread "Some Issues with Synchronized".
Dec 23 2011