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digitalmars.D.announce - d usability?

reply new2d <new2d 123.net> writes:
hi,

A lot of informative and interesting discussions are going on here.

But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the nice
libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a shame. 
Someday you all will have succeeded to have a super language, whose users and
potential new users had to give up on it, due to the lack of libraries and
tools. Please have more frequent bug fixes to the compilers and keep the libs
and tools of dsource up to date.
When will the tango and phobos merge?
Mar 24 2009
next sibling parent Clay Smith <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
new2d wrote:
 hi,
 
 A lot of informative and interesting discussions are going on here.
 
 But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the
nice libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a shame. 
 Someday you all will have succeeded to have a super language, whose users and
potential new users had to give up on it, due to the lack of libraries and
tools. Please have more frequent bug fixes to the compilers and keep the libs
and tools of dsource up to date.
 When will the tango and phobos merge?
 

FYI, most D people are volunteer developers. Maybe you want to be more specific about your problems, as well? ~ Clay
Mar 24 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
new2d wrote:
 But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the
nice libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a shame. 
 Someday you all will have succeeded to have a super language, whose users and
potential new users had to give up on it, due to the lack of libraries and
tools. Please have more frequent bug fixes to the compilers and keep the libs
and tools of dsource up to date.
 When will the tango and phobos merge?

You will hear a lot of explanations about how people won't bother to update D1 stuff "because D2 is shortly out", or D2 stuff "because it's a moving target". All of which seem very legitimate to the writers. From a new user's point (and why not old ones too, especially those outside these newsgroups), it makes no difference whether such explanations are valid or not. The situation itself is bad for D. What should be done about it? (Instead of explaining and whining.) Can we at least make those libraries and projects that work with the current D more prominent, more visible to the casual or new person? Or something else?
Mar 24 2009
parent reply new2d <new2d 123.net> writes:
Seen from the outside, D looks like a very fragmented project of very
incomplete software. There are 2 libraries whose merging doesn’t happen, even
after a big fuss of argumentations and agreements. The agreed on most important
bugs are not getting fixed in favor for, - admittedly a nice, port to the apple
os.
The users, who are not so much into compiler construction and the like, are
left with bits and pieces, which too much to die but not enough to really live.
Looking through the discussions, everybody seems to know what is need to
seriously use D in real world projects. For me its libraries, libraries ....
(for DB, UI etc.). Right now there is only a meager lucky bag (except for some
lonely projects).
I would suggest, that at least the libraries on dsource be kept up to date with
the releases. Any new user who wants to try D, might be intrigued by the
language, but will be instantly put off by the lack of libraries. For a “hello
world” any basic compiler/interpreter will be enough - for sure.
I hope you people take no offense and i do not want offend anyone here. I
admire your work and endurance! But please keep in mind, that this
project/language/compiler should not be a therapeutic effort for a few people.
In its current state, i don’t think D will make it to any kind real projects.



Georg Wrede Wrote:

 new2d wrote:
 But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the
nice libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a shame. 
 Someday you all will have succeeded to have a super language, whose users and
potential new users had to give up on it, due to the lack of libraries and
tools. Please have more frequent bug fixes to the compilers and keep the libs
and tools of dsource up to date.
 When will the tango and phobos merge?

You will hear a lot of explanations about how people won't bother to update D1 stuff "because D2 is shortly out", or D2 stuff "because it's a moving target". All of which seem very legitimate to the writers. From a new user's point (and why not old ones too, especially those outside these newsgroups), it makes no difference whether such explanations are valid or not. The situation itself is bad for D. What should be done about it? (Instead of explaining and whining.) Can we at least make those libraries and projects that work with the current D more prominent, more visible to the casual or new person? Or something else?

Mar 24 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
new2d wrote:
 The
 agreed on most important bugs are not getting fixed in favor for, -
 admittedly a nice, port to the apple os.

Since the Mac is one of the "big three" platforms, supporting the Mac is a requirement.
Mar 24 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"new2d" <new2d 123.net> wrote in message 
news:gqb4hj$i5n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi,

 A lot of informative and interesting discussions are going on here.

 But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the 
 nice libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a 
 shame.
 Someday you all will have succeeded to have a super language, whose users 
 and potential new users had to give up on it, due to the lack of libraries 
 and tools. Please have more frequent bug fixes to the compilers and keep 
 the libs and tools of dsource up to date.
 When will the tango and phobos merge?

First off, this belongs in "digitalmars.D", not "digitalmars.D.announce". Top level posts in here should be restricted to announcements only (hence ".announce"). As for the non-up-to-date projects in dsource, one of the main problems with that is that dsource currently does nothing to help the viewer distinguish between old abanoned projects and current ones. That does need to get fixed, and it is an issue that has been brought up before. I'm not sure why it hasn't happened yet, but my guess is that the people in charge of the site are probably just busy with other things (Hey, it happens. Like other people have said, the D community is largely volunteer work right now.) Plus there's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg problem. There's a lot of potential D users out there that are refusing to use D because of low tool/lib support. But *that* is part of what causes the tools/libs to not get made. The solution is for people to just jump in and help out instead of complaining about the tool/lib support from the sidelines.
Mar 24 2009
next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"new2d" <new2d 123.net> wrote in message
news:gqb4hj$i5n$1 digitalmars.com...
 When will the tango and phobos merge?

Sorry, I forgot to address this part. I'm not one of the main tango or phobos people, but this is how I understand it: The "core" parts of tango and phobos have already been merged into a common "druntime", which allows both tango and phobos to be used in the same program. But for some reason "druntime" is D2-only (I *think* the reason for this is that it requires breaking changes to phobos and Walter wants to keep D1 non-breaking-changes-only from here on out, but there might be more to it than that). The problem is, tango doesn't have official support for D2 yet, and it won't do that until D2 gets further along and stabilizes a bit ("It's a moving target"). So, the roadmap as I understand it: 1. D2 stabilizes 2. Tango officially supports D2 Then D2's druntime will become useful, allowing phobos and tango to be used together.
Mar 24 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 The "core" parts of tango and phobos have already been merged into a common 
 "druntime", which allows both tango and phobos to be used in the same 
 program. But for some reason "druntime" is D2-only (I *think* the reason for 
 this is that it requires breaking changes to phobos and Walter wants to keep 
 D1 non-breaking-changes-only from here on out, but there might be more to it 
 than that).

There is no more to it than that. There's really no point in having a "stable" D1 that constantly requires people to rewrite and adjust their code.
Mar 24 2009
parent reply The Anh Tran <trtheanh gmail.com> writes:
In my limit knowledge, D2 has invariant+pure integrated already, to 
support functional paradigm. Is there any 'feature', cooking in 
backyard, so that d2 can't be declared stable?

This is purely speculation:
1. Concurrent support?
2. Operator overhaul?
3. Add more paradigm??? :D
4. Something to assimilate Martian people? :D
Mar 25 2009
next sibling parent dsimcha <dsimcha yahoo.com> writes:
== Quote from The Anh Tran (trtheanh gmail.com)'s article
 In my limit knowledge, D2 has invariant+pure integrated already, to
 support functional paradigm. Is there any 'feature', cooking in
 backyard, so that d2 can't be declared stable?
 This is purely speculation:
 1. Concurrent support?
 2. Operator overhaul?
 3. Add more paradigm??? :D
 4. Something to assimilate Martian people? :D

Well, this _was_ supposed to happen in April of this year b/c that's when Andrei's book was supposed to come out. Whether that's still feasible, IDK.
Mar 25 2009
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
The Anh Tran wrote:
 In my limit knowledge, D2 has invariant+pure integrated already, to 
 support functional paradigm. Is there any 'feature', cooking in 
 backyard, so that d2 can't be declared stable?
 
 This is purely speculation:
 1. Concurrent support?
 2. Operator overhaul?
 3. Add more paradigm??? :D
 4. Something to assimilate Martian people? :D

Concurrency support.
Mar 25 2009
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Walter Bright:
 Concurrency support.

Is it possible for you to find a sponsor willing to pay you to implement exceptions on Windows inside LLVM? I think LLVM interests enough people, and exceptions can then be used in C++ code too. I have no idea of the amount of work required, but maybe one or two months of work may suffice to do that. Once LLVM has them, LDC can use them and can be used on Windows too. So LDC may become the reference D compiler (and it can grow support for D2 language in some months). LLVM isn't as efficient as GCC, but it's modern and actively developed. (Eventually a project like dil too (D front-end for LLVM written in D) may become viable, but that's for the future). Bye, bearophile
Mar 25 2009
next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley:
 What makes you have any expectation that Walter has anything to do with LLVM?

Isn't LLVM open source? So "anyone" can help, especially if such person finds someone willing to pay for such work. Seeing how GCC (and probably in the future LLVM too) are at the base of so much open source software in the world, I think someone may be willing to pay a developer for some time to implement some useful feature. (Of course, everything I have said here may be stupid & wrong). Bye, bearophile
Mar 25 2009
prev sibling parent "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon gmail.com> writes:
bearophile wrote:
 Is it possible for you to find a sponsor willing to pay you to implement
exceptions on Windows inside LLVM? I think LLVM interests enough people, and
exceptions can then be used in C++ code too.
 I have no idea of the amount of work required, but maybe one or two months of
work may suffice to do that.

Yes, Google—if it’s a student doing the implementation; LLVM is a mentoring organization in Google’s Summer of Code 2009. —Joel Salomon
Mar 26 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent "Denis Koroskin" <2korden gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:07:02 +0300, The Anh Tran <trtheanh gmail.com> wrote:

 In my limit knowledge, D2 has invariant+pure integrated already, to  
 support functional paradigm. Is there any 'feature', cooking in  
 backyard, so that d2 can't be declared stable?

 This is purely speculation:
 1. Concurrent support?
 2. Operator overhaul?
 3. Add more paradigm??? :D
 4. Something to assimilate Martian people? :D

I believe memory model (shared/thread-local separation etc) is not fully implemented yet. Other than that it's quite stable already and last few releases broke (almost) none of my code. P.S. Please, start new topic by clicking "Compose", not "Reply" next time.
Mar 25 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 4:10 PM, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:
 Walter Bright:
 Concurrency support.

Is it possible for you to find a sponsor willing to pay you to implement exceptions on Windows inside LLVM? I think LLVM interests enough people, and exceptions can then be used in C++ code too. I have no idea of the amount of work required, but maybe one or two months of work may suffice to do that.

What makes you have any expectation that Walter has anything to do with LLVM?
Mar 25 2009
prev sibling parent Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:50 PM, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:
 Jarrett Billingsley:
 What makes you have any expectation that Walter has anything to do with LLVM?

Isn't LLVM open source? So "anyone" can help, especially if such person finds someone willing to pay for such work.

Suuure, but do you honestly think Walter's going to drop everything he's doing and work on a project that he is currently not involved in in any way, to support a compiler that he didn't make? It just seems very unlikely, is all.
Mar 25 2009
prev sibling parent Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
new2d wrote:
 hi,
 
 A lot of informative and interesting discussions are going on here.
 
 But after trying the latest D1 and D2 compilers, it seems like none of the
nice libraries and tools of dsource.og are compilable anymore - that’s a shame. 

I have stuff on dsource that works with the latest d1 compiler, so you must not have tried *everything* on dsource. Unless dsource.og is not the same as dsource.org?
Mar 24 2009