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digitalmars.D.announce - Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?

reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Is this a good idea?
May 11 2009
next sibling parent "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Is this a good idea?


Yes.

Although, D.current and D.next or something along those lines, seems to me
better than D1 and D2 (there is reason to believe there will be a D3 in the
future).

--
  Simen
May 11 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:guafob$1uqd$2 digitalmars.com...

 Is this a good idea?


I don't think so. Not all discussion is specific to D1 or D2.
May 11 2009
parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 20:43:27 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 "Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:guafob$1uqd$2 digitalmars.com...

 Is this a good idea?


 
 I don't think so. Not all discussion is specific to D1 or D2.


I looks to me that Walter is thinking of having everything specific to D2 
be moved and that related to D1 or both stay in digitalmars.D

With that in mind, D.beta or something might be better. But I don't know 
if this is the answer.

The discussions about D2 that are hundreds of posts would get their own 
section. This would give a clearer idea what discussions relate to D1, 
but would that show the real state of D1 activity? Would this 
categorization be beneficial to readers?

I personally don't see a problem with it, but don't know if it is a 
solution.
May 11 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 17:26:54 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:


 Is this a good idea?


Leave digitalmars.D as it is and just add digitalmars.D.future

I suppose you could also add digitalmars.D.v1 for discussion just about
that edition of D.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
May 11 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Walter Bright
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


My gut reaction is 'yes'.  But what would be left on .D without the
hundred-post threads about ranges?  There really _isn't_ that much
conversation about D1, and most of it probably belongs on .D.learn
anyway.

Somewhat offtopic: I get the impression, from using the D IRC
channels, that a lot of newcomers are far more influenced into reading
about and using D2 by the Digital Mars site than by how the newsgroups
are divided.  The site guides you right into the D2 spec and compiler
without ever really explaining that D2 is in beta, or that there are
practically no libraries for it, or that virtually everyone who is
using D for production code is using D1.  You get to the D site; what
do you do?  Click "overview," naturally.  You read through that, and
every one of the links is into the D2 spec.  The D 1.0 link at the top
left has also disappeared.  And of course, since bigger numbers *must*
be better, D1 is probably old and unsupported, right!

Maybe there should be a "foyer" page which explains the purpose,
status, and future plans for both D1 and D2 (like I think it was Derek
who said, nowhere on the DM site is it mentioned that D1 is still
supported!).  Then and only then should visitors have the opportunity
to see the rest of the appropriate spec.
May 11 2009
parent Leandro Lucarella <llucax gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley, el 12 de mayo a las 01:01 me escribiste:

 On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Walter Bright
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


 
 My gut reaction is 'yes'.  But what would be left on .D without the
 hundred-post threads about ranges?  There really _isn't_ that much
 conversation about D1, and most of it probably belongs on .D.learn
 anyway.


That's why I think D.learn should be named D.users and D should be named
D.devel. D.learn seems to be a "newbie" group and D seems to be an
"expert" group. Since there is no develpment in the D1 side, there would
be no much D1 talking in D.devel (as it is now), except for some bug
report discussion or something.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
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May 12 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
No.

If we had D and D2, then we'll need D3 (and D4....). And we don't need 
both a D([1]) and a D.learn newsgroup. Not enough volume three groups.

We need _D.programming_ and _D.future_, that's all.

Once they're up, we post into d.learn that "please post in D.programming 
instead", and in D that "post in D.future instead".



The whole point of this name change is to steer people into 
*D.programming* by default. That means /anybody/ who approaches our news 
for the first time.

D.programming should contain both newbie questions, and general talk 
about the Current D version (i.e. D1 for now, and once "D2 is out", D1 
and D2 together).


People who don't fancy themselves as language development guys, should 
get scared enough of the name D.future that they approach with caution. 
And that's all we need. If they peek in, and are comfortable with hairy 
stuff, and want to contribute, then just jump in, of course.

-------------------------

For this to serve the purpose we intend, D1 should be more prominent on 
the digitalmars web site, too. It is the Current Version, after all! D2 
is only alpha, and not intended for use by others than the D language 
developers.
May 12 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


Yes, but maybe not .D and .D2.

I think a separate news group for the huge threads about the future of 
D/D2 would be good, but there still needs to be a general newsgroup for 
general discussion - some discussions aren't specific to either or would 
be best left open. I like the idea of D.future as others have suggested.
May 12 2009
parent Knud Soerensen <4tuu4k002 sneakemail.com> writes:
What about D.programming and D.compilers

Then all programming questions goes to D.programming
and D.compilers could be the goto group for discussion
on compiler design.

Close D.learn and D.gnu.

I agree the D.learn sounds like it is for newbies.
And I think that all the compilers could benefit
form a shared discussion.



Robert Clipsham wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


 
 Yes, but maybe not .D and .D2.
 
 I think a separate news group for the huge threads about the future of 
 D/D2 would be good, but there still needs to be a general newsgroup for 
 general discussion - some discussions aren't specific to either or would 
 be best left open. I like the idea of D.future as others have suggested.



-- 
Knud Sørensen
Programmer for hire.
May 12 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Tomas Lindquist Olsen <tomas.l.olsen gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Walter Bright
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Is this a good idea?



I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they
should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always
know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at
D4!

vote +1 !
May 12 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote:

 I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they
 should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always
 know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at
 D4!


I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the 
Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin 
traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means 
that that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result.

The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm 
reluctant to mess with success.
May 12 2009
next sibling parent reply Tomas Lindquist Olsen <tomas.l.olsen gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Walter Bright
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote:

 I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they
 should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always
 know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at
 D4!


 I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the
 Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin
 traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means that
 that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result.

 The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm reluctant
 to mess with success.



It's a good point... I still don't think it's a bad idea, but I can
see your reason to be reluctant perfectly well.
However, why propose it if you don't like the idea in the first place ?
May 12 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote:

 However, why propose it if you don't like the idea in the first place ?


I changed my mind.
May 12 2009
prev sibling parent reply Lutger <lutger.blijdestijn gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote:

 I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they
 should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always
 know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at
 D4!


 
 I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the 
 Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin 
 traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means 
 that that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result.
 
 The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm 
 reluctant to mess with success.


Similar to what Knud Soerensen suggested: 

Rename .learn to .programming and .d to .design or .future. 

And while we're at it: merge .dwt .gnu .ide .debugger into .tools or .toolchain
or something like that.

That way you end up with even less newsgroups!
May 12 2009
parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
Lutger wrote:

 
 Rename .learn to .programming and .d to .design or .future.
 
 And while we're at it: merge .dwt .gnu .ide .debugger into .tools or
 .toolchain or something like that.
 
 That way you end up with even less newsgroups!


A good idea.
May 13 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and this 
imo not very appealing to new visitors.
In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.
Björn
May 12 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and this 
 imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.
May 12 2009
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and 
 this imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


 
 Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.


I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well.

Andrei
May 12 2009
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:05 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:

 BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and 
 this imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


 
 Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.


 
 I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well.


I'm not used to Boost groups, so who is expected to post to "-users"? Are
they users of D (that is, application developers)? Who posts to
"-developers"? Are they the people developing D itself or
application/tool/library developers (otherwise known as users of D)?

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
May 12 2009
next sibling parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:05 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:

 BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and 
 this imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


 Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.


 I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well.


 
 I'm not used to Boost groups, so who is expected to post to "-users"? Are
 they users of D (that is, application developers)? Who posts to
 "-developers"? Are they the people developing D itself or
 application/tool/library developers (otherwise known as users of D)?
 


Derek, may I contact you by Skype ?
I will stay for about 6 month in Brisbane to fulfill a software contract.
Live in Europe, Time difference GMT +8.

Björn  nanali at  wanadoo dot ...  fr
May 12 2009
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Wed, 13 May 2009 00:46:25 +0200, BLS wrote:


 Derek, may I contact you by Skype ?


Sure. 

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
May 12 2009
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:05 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:

 BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and 
 this imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


 Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.


 I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well.


 
 I'm not used to Boost groups, so who is expected to post to "-users"? Are
 they users of D (that is, application developers)? Who posts to
 "-developers"? Are they the people developing D itself or
 application/tool/library developers (otherwise known as users of D)?
 


Those who use Boost hang out in the users group. Those who are 
interested in the implementation of Boost hang out in the devel group, 
whether or not they have written a Boost library.

Andrei
May 12 2009
prev sibling parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 BLS wrote:

 No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each 
 day.
 Otherwise you'll have several "10 entries a month" D newsgroups and 
 this imo not very appealing to new visitors.
 In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez.


 Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.


 


you mean Beer or ... :)

 I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well.
 
 Andrei


May be I am wrong, but the Boost respective CPP community is atm not 
comparable to the D community.
I mean let's wait a while.

F.I. I am in contact with airbus industries since 2.5 years and I can 
assure you they have an eye on D.
(I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use.
1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... )

Björn
May 12 2009
next sibling parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use.
 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... )


The only surprise there (if any) is OCAML. *Everyone* uses C and, last I 

From what I've heard, it's actually a darn nice language to work in if you 
are going to be doing all the engineering process stuff anyway.
May 12 2009
parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Hello BLS,
 

 (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use.
 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... )


 
 The only surprise there (if any) is OCAML. *Everyone* uses C and, last I 

 development. From what I've heard, it's actually a darn nice language to 
 work in if you are going to be doing all the engineering process stuff 
 anyway.
 
 


Hello BCS :)

http://www.astree.ens.fr/
This is something Walter definitely should read too.

What's the story :

"ASTRÉE is written in Objective Caml and is about 44000 lines long (plus 
external libraries). We needed a language with good performance (speed 
and memory usage) on reasonable equipment, easy support for advanced 
data structures, and type and memory safety. OCaml also allows for 
modular, clear and compact source code and makes it easy to work with 
recursive structures such as syntax trees"

Björn
May 15 2009
parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 Hello BLS,
 

 (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use.
 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... )


 The only surprise there (if any) is OCAML.


 Hello BCS :)


My point was about C and Ada and that anyone with a brain could figure out 
that every aerospace company uses them (so no secrets there). Not so with 
OCAML, that isn't a given.
May 15 2009
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
BLS wrote:

 F.I. I am in contact with airbus industries since 2.5 years and I can 
 assure you they have an eye on D.



It'd be nice if some of them came to this NG.

(FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-)

I'd love if they did some tests (like a test application) with D, ADA 
and some other language, and then look at the number of bugs, how long 
it took to write, etc.

They might also have some ideas about robust programming, that we 
haven't yet discussed here.



More generally, I'd love to see some of our NG celebrities get invited 
to mega corporations to give joint presentations of D.

(Pipe dreaming: Oracle, Google, Airbus, General Electric, Boeing, NASA, 
could jointly pay for three guys to offload a lot of tedium from Walter 
&co's back.)

(More pipe dreaming: to have a non-profit organisation that maintains a 
proper web site for D with paid staff (equals proper management), makes 
some industrial level documentation, and takes care of promoting D in 
various industries.)

Heck, for this dreaming I don't even need controlled substances!
May 13 2009
next sibling parent "Denis Koroskin" <2korden gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 13 May 2009 20:24:29 +0400, Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> wrote:


 (More pipe dreaming: to have a non-profit organisation that maintains a  
 proper web site for D with paid staff (equals proper management), makes  
 some industrial level documentation, and takes care of promoting D in  
 various industries.)



I believe it is a must these days.
May 13 2009
prev sibling parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 
 
 It'd be nice if some of them came to this NG.
 


will meet one of the leading guys this summer, let's see.


 (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-)
 


So you better fly with Boeing !

"ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of 
run-time errors in critical embedded software.
It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340 and 
380 airplanes. "

ASTREE is written in OCAML.  // http://www.astree.ens.fr/

Björn
May 15 2009
next sibling parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 Georg Wrede wrote:
 

 (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-)
 


 So you better fly with Boeing !
 
 "ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of
 run-time errors in critical embedded software.
 It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340
 and
 380 airplanes. "
 ASTREE is written in OCAML.  // http://www.astree.ens.fr/
 


If you can *prove* it's correct, I don't care if it's in BF I'll fly on it 
over something you can't. OTOH I /think/ Ada programs can be written so they 
won't compile if they can't be proven to be correct, at some level.
May 15 2009
prev sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede iki.fi> writes:
BLS wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 It'd be nice if some of them came to this NG.


 
 will meet one of the leading guys this summer, let's see.


Excellent!!


 (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-)


 
 So you better fly with Boeing !


LOL


 "ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of 
 run-time errors in critical embedded software.
 It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340 and 
 380 airplanes. "
 
 ASTREE is written in OCAML.  // http://www.astree.ens.fr/


Yeah. In the old days there was an entire industry selling lint programs 
for C coders, and some of them cost more than a mid-size car.

Then came C++, and the number of code lines written (in several 
languages) for the sole purpose of checking that the C++ program even 
remotely tries to do what it's supposed to, is simply disgusting.

A programming language should make it possible to write code where the 
immediate purpose is clearly visible at a glance. I believe D is such a 
language. A professional programmer who /wants/ to code clearly, can do 
it. But with C++, I really don't think so.
May 15 2009
prev sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic tiscali.co.uk> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Is this a good idea?


Definitely it is a good idea, as I do not do any D1 development for 
years. I use D2 exclusively...
May 17 2009