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digitalmars.D.announce - New Layout Wiki4D

reply DavidSwe <afraidof spam.bot> writes:
I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D
Feb 28 2007
next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jari-Matti_M=E4kel=E4?= <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> writes:
DavidSwe kirjoitti:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

The fixed width is probably not a good idea. Some pictures don't fit to the page now, e.g http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?EditorSupport/GEdit Is it possible to set min-width and max-width there? The orange-yellow background is quite aggressive. I don't like it at all. Otherwise it's very nice.
Feb 28 2007
parent reply Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Jari-Matti Mäkelä wrote:
 DavidSwe kirjoitti:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

The fixed width is probably not a good idea. Some pictures don't fit to the page now, e.g

Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the page should be wider, and use a larger font. It only uses half my screen space with a rather small font on my monitor. Looking at the source, all sizes are specified in _pixels_. This is typically a Bad Thing for anyone using a higher resolution than the author uses. It certainly is for me...
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?EditorSupport/GEdit

Ew, a horizontal scrollbar. I hate those, especially when it would probably fit fine with less huge margins.
 Is it possible to set min-width and max-width there?
 
 The orange-yellow background is quite aggressive. I don't like it at
 all. Otherwise it's very nice.

I agree, the background should use another color. The focus should be on the content, not the borders.
Feb 28 2007
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Frits van Bommel Wrote:
<snip>
 Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the page should be wider, 
 and use a larger font.  It only uses half my screen space with a 
 rather small font on my monitor.

Wrong again. It should have no width set at all. Fixed width layouts on web pages should never have been invented.
 Looking at the source, all sizes are specified in _pixels_. This is 
 typically a Bad Thing for anyone using a higher resolution than the 
 author uses. It certainly is for me...

It's nothing to do with resolution. It's to do with basic accessibility principles and not disabling the means by which browsers implement such principles. Either specify font sizes in ems, not pixels or points, or don't specify them at all. Stewart.
Feb 28 2007
next sibling parent reply DavidSwe <afraidof spam.bot> writes:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?action=edit&id=DocComments/WikiTemplate

HF. It's a wiki after all!

Stewart Gordon Wrote:

 Frits van Bommel Wrote:
 <snip>
 Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the page should be wider, 
 and use a larger font.  It only uses half my screen space with a 
 rather small font on my monitor.

Wrong again. It should have no width set at all. Fixed width layouts on web pages should never have been invented.
 Looking at the source, all sizes are specified in _pixels_. This is 
 typically a Bad Thing for anyone using a higher resolution than the 
 author uses. It certainly is for me...

It's nothing to do with resolution. It's to do with basic accessibility principles and not disabling the means by which browsers implement such principles. Either specify font sizes in ems, not pixels or points, or don't specify them at all. Stewart.

Feb 28 2007
parent reply Thomas Kuehne <thomas-dloop kuehne.cn> writes:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

DavidSwe schrieb am 2007-02-28:
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?action=edit&id=DocComments/WikiTemplate

 HF. It's a wiki after all!

Sure it is. I've tried to de-pixelise the layout, but it is totaly broken. Reverted back to the original layout. Thomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFF5dDzLK5blCcjpWoRAhR/AJ4nQnJe/NGmyFhZwHF/fOHk/P7YeACcD6Lb yxdP1XSyPDenDckHR9QZ4Nk= =RbgU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Feb 28 2007
parent reply DavidSwe <afraidof spam.bot> writes:
Couldn't you have tried a different layout instead of reverting to the old one?
Forcing Firefox to use no style on wiki4d have about the same look as the old
one. I think that speaks for itself.

Thomas Kuehne Wrote:

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 Hash: SHA1
 
 DavidSwe schrieb am 2007-02-28:
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?action=edit&id=DocComments/WikiTemplate

 HF. It's a wiki after all!

Sure it is. I've tried to de-pixelise the layout, but it is totaly broken. Reverted back to the original layout. Thomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFF5dDzLK5blCcjpWoRAhR/AJ4nQnJe/NGmyFhZwHF/fOHk/P7YeACcD6Lb yxdP1XSyPDenDckHR9QZ4Nk= =RbgU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Mar 01 2007
next sibling parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
DavidSwe wrote:
 Couldn't you have tried a different layout instead of reverting to the old
one? Forcing Firefox to use no style on wiki4d have about the same look as the
old one. I think that speaks for itself.

I suspect the simple answer is that it's easier to revert back than to save your layout or to try a different layout. The layout has been changed before, but usually less drastic changes have a better chance of surviving. Perhaps, think incremental rather than all at once. -- jcc7
Mar 01 2007
prev sibling parent Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
DavidSwe Wrote:

 Couldn't you have tried a different layout instead of 
 reverting to the old one?  Forcing Firefox to use no style on 
 wiki4d have about the same look as the old one.  I think that 
 speaks for itself.

The result is reasonable (in IE6) when I try taking out the CSS. That's as much as matters IMO - after all, the whole point of CSS is to facilitate the separation of content from aesthetics. Stewart.
Mar 03 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent Patrick Byrne <pjlbyrne frontier.co.uk> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 It should have no width set at all.  Fixed width layouts on web pages should
never have been invented.

Hear Hear! <lurk>
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Pragma <ericanderton yahoo.removeme.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Frits van Bommel Wrote:
 <snip>
 Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the page should be wider, 
 and use a larger font.  It only uses half my screen space with a 
 rather small font on my monitor.

Wrong again. It should have no width set at all. Fixed width layouts on web pages should never have been invented.
 Looking at the source, all sizes are specified in _pixels_. This is 
 typically a Bad Thing for anyone using a higher resolution than the 
 author uses. It certainly is for me...

It's nothing to do with resolution. It's to do with basic accessibility principles and not disabling the means by which browsers implement such principles. Either specify font sizes in ems, not pixels or points, or don't specify them at all. Stewart.

For general site layout, I agree. However, for columnar layout of content, fixing the width for content has everything to do with readability for the sighted - I for one have a hard time reading paragraph after paragraph of text laid out at over 1000px wide. Granted, I could just resize my browser, but the effect is hardly the same. The ideal solution is having paragraphs elements that layout such that they create natural (magazine-style) columns regardless of the dimensions of the page itself. But I have yet to see that happen without constraining the page width, height or number of columns in some way, without resorting to javascript hacks. ;) -- - EricAnderton at yahoo
Feb 28 2007
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Pragma Wrote:
<snip>
 For general site layout, I agree.  However, for columnar 
 layout of content, fixing the width for content has everything 
 to do with readability for the sighted - I for one have a hard 
 time reading paragraph after paragraph of text laid out at 
 over 1000px wide.  Granted, I could just resize my browser, 
 but the effect is hardly the same.

It also has everything to do with unreadability for the sighted, if they have to keep scrolling their screens in a variety of directions just because the designer's browser dimensions don't match.
 The ideal solution is having paragraphs elements that layout 
 such that they create natural (magazine-style) columns 
 regardless of the dimensions of the page itself.  But I have 
 yet to see that happen without constraining the page width, 
 height or number of columns in some way, without resorting to 
 javascript hacks.  ;)

Some would claim that magazine-style columns don't belong on the WWW, but are just a pointless attempt to mimic printed material. Someone once said: http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Fix_the_wrong_problem "Trying to force a text-flow from one column to another, when the real problem is creating text interesting enough to induce readers to scroll their displays in a presentation based on methods appropriate to the medium instead of those adopted from print. " Moreover, to read columns on a web page you would often have to scroll down the column to read it, and then scroll up again to read the next column. But you have a point. Maybe there is a way in which such a thing could be reasonably implemented.... Stewart.
Feb 28 2007
next sibling parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 The ideal solution is having paragraphs elements that layout 
 such that they create natural (magazine-style) columns 
 regardless of the dimensions of the page itself.  But I have 
 yet to see that happen without constraining the page width, 
 height or number of columns in some way, without resorting to 
 javascript hacks.  ;)

Some would claim that magazine-style columns don't belong on the WWW, but are just a pointless attempt to mimic printed material. Someone once said:

I've heard somewhere before that narrower text is easier to read. But just now I couldn't find anything in the way of corroboration. I did find this: http://hubel.sfasu.edu/research/textmargin.html """ Conclusions Results indicated that, by itself, text width does not influence readability; however, there was a significant interaction between text width and margin width. """ But I really don't like what the data shows. They say an 8inch column is significantly more readable with 0-inch margins. Ugh, I hate zero-width margins. Makes me feel all stressed out looking at zero width margins. --bb
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling parent reply Pragma <ericanderton yahoo.removeme.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Pragma Wrote:
 <snip>
 For general site layout, I agree.  However, for columnar 
 layout of content, fixing the width for content has everything 
 to do with readability for the sighted - I for one have a hard 
 time reading paragraph after paragraph of text laid out at 
 over 1000px wide.  Granted, I could just resize my browser, 
 but the effect is hardly the same.

It also has everything to do with unreadability for the sighted, if they have to keep scrolling their screens in a variety of directions just because the designer's browser dimensions don't match.
 The ideal solution is having paragraphs elements that layout 
 such that they create natural (magazine-style) columns 
 regardless of the dimensions of the page itself.  But I have 
 yet to see that happen without constraining the page width, 
 height or number of columns in some way, without resorting to 
 javascript hacks.  ;)

Some would claim that magazine-style columns don't belong on the WWW, but are just a pointless attempt to mimic printed material. Someone once said: http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Fix_the_wrong_problem

Good link. I'll have to hang onto that one.
 "Trying to force a text-flow from one column to another, when the real problem
is creating text interesting enough to induce readers to scroll their displays
in a presentation based on methods appropriate to the medium instead of those
adopted from print. "
 
 Moreover, to read columns on a web page you would often have to scroll down
the column to read it, and then scroll up again to read the next column.

Aside: I find it genuinely funny that my newsreader (Thunderbird) saw fit to quote you without line-wrapping in my editor. :) You're right (and your quoted source is right) that it's a PITA to scroll down, then up again to keep reading. I think the only way that works at all is if you have dissimilar content, stories or whatnot in each column - kind of like CNN's story layout. That way you have only one true column for something of interest, leaving the user to "shift gears" and scroll up to do something else. Otherwise, for a "minimal scrolling magazine style layout", you'd have to constrain the page to the height of the viewport, and encourage horizontal scrolling instead of vertical - a little counter-intuitive (and very unconventional), but I've seen similar things done before with good looking results. I'm not advocating this for the wiki, but I wouldn't mind having a personal Blog done this way.
 Maybe there is a way in which such a thing could be reasonably implemented....

It can be done a whole bunch of ways: javascript + CSS comes to mind so you can adopt a different layout depending on the viewport size/shape. But then it all comes back to accessibility and browser behavior by version and vendor: "what is acceptable and what isn't" depends on your audience. :( Now what would be nice is if browser vendors changed how big an EM is depending on the viewport size. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo
Feb 28 2007
next sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2005/03/gecko_18_for_we.html

Of course, you'll need a fairly recent version of a Mozilla browser.
Just try resizing the window left and right to see what happens.

	-- Daniel

Pragma wrote:
 Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Pragma Wrote:
 <snip>
 For general site layout, I agree.  However, for columnar layout of
 content, fixing the width for content has everything to do with
 readability for the sighted - I for one have a hard time reading
 paragraph after paragraph of text laid out at over 1000px wide. 
 Granted, I could just resize my browser, but the effect is hardly the
 same.

It also has everything to do with unreadability for the sighted, if they have to keep scrolling their screens in a variety of directions just because the designer's browser dimensions don't match.
 The ideal solution is having paragraphs elements that layout such
 that they create natural (magazine-style) columns regardless of the
 dimensions of the page itself.  But I have yet to see that happen
 without constraining the page width, height or number of columns in
 some way, without resorting to javascript hacks.  ;)

Some would claim that magazine-style columns don't belong on the WWW, but are just a pointless attempt to mimic printed material. Someone once said: http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Fix_the_wrong_problem

Good link. I'll have to hang onto that one.
 "Trying to force a text-flow from one column to another, when the real
 problem is creating text interesting enough to induce readers to
 scroll their displays in a presentation based on methods appropriate
 to the medium instead of those adopted from print. "

 Moreover, to read columns on a web page you would often have to scroll
 down the column to read it, and then scroll up again to read the next
 column.

Aside: I find it genuinely funny that my newsreader (Thunderbird) saw fit to quote you without line-wrapping in my editor. :) You're right (and your quoted source is right) that it's a PITA to scroll down, then up again to keep reading. I think the only way that works at all is if you have dissimilar content, stories or whatnot in each column - kind of like CNN's story layout. That way you have only one true column for something of interest, leaving the user to "shift gears" and scroll up to do something else. Otherwise, for a "minimal scrolling magazine style layout", you'd have to constrain the page to the height of the viewport, and encourage horizontal scrolling instead of vertical - a little counter-intuitive (and very unconventional), but I've seen similar things done before with good looking results. I'm not advocating this for the wiki, but I wouldn't mind having a personal Blog done this way.
 Maybe there is a way in which such a thing could be reasonably

It can be done a whole bunch of ways: javascript + CSS comes to mind so you can adopt a different layout depending on the viewport size/shape. But then it all comes back to accessibility and browser behavior by version and vendor: "what is acceptable and what isn't" depends on your audience. :( Now what would be nice is if browser vendors changed how big an EM is depending on the viewport size.

-- Unlike Knuth, I have neither proven or tried the above; it may not even make sense. v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP http://hackerkey.com/
Feb 28 2007
parent reply Pragma <ericanderton yahoo.removeme.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:
 http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2005/03/gecko_18_for_we.html
 
 Of course, you'll need a fairly recent version of a Mozilla browser.
 Just try resizing the window left and right to see what happens.

That's about as solid an example as anyone could hope for. Thanks for sending that. :) .columns { -moz-column-width: 20em; -moz-column-gap: 3em; -moz-column-rule: medium solid; -webkit-column-width: 20em; -webkit-column-gap: 3em; -webkit-column-rule: medium solid; } Shame it uses all proprietary styles, but at least it degrades well on IE. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo
Mar 01 2007
parent Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Pragma wrote:
 Daniel Keep wrote:
 http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2005/03/gecko_18_for_we.html

 Of course, you'll need a fairly recent version of a Mozilla browser.
 Just try resizing the window left and right to see what happens.

That's about as solid an example as anyone could hope for. Thanks for sending that. :) .columns { -moz-column-width: 20em; -moz-column-gap: 3em; -moz-column-rule: medium solid; -webkit-column-width: 20em; -webkit-column-gap: 3em; -webkit-column-rule: medium solid; } Shame it uses all proprietary styles, but at least it degrades well on IE.

Well, all new "experimental" CSS styles in Mozilla start off life as "-moz-*" properties. The thing here is that, IIRC, all the -moz-* ones above are actually CSS3 Columns save for the prefix (the same goes for Safari.) They do it this way because at the time the spec hadn't been finalised. But yeah, it is pretty cool :) -- Daniel -- Unlike Knuth, I have neither proven or tried the above; it may not even make sense. v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP http://hackerkey.com/
Mar 01 2007
prev sibling parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Pragma Wrote:
<snip>
 It can be done a whole bunch of ways: javascript + CSS comes 
 to mind so you can adopt a different layout depending on the 
 viewport size/shape.  But then it all comes back to 
 accessibility and browser behavior by version and vendor: 
 "what is acceptable and what isn't" depends on your audience.  
 :(
 
 Now what would be nice is if browser vendors changed how big 
 an EM is depending on the viewport size.

What's an EM? Stewart.
Feb 28 2007
parent reply Chris Nicholson-Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Pragma Wrote:
 <snip>
 It can be done a whole bunch of ways: javascript + CSS comes 
 to mind so you can adopt a different layout depending on the 
 viewport size/shape.  But then it all comes back to 
 accessibility and browser behavior by version and vendor: 
 "what is acceptable and what isn't" depends on your audience.  
 :(

 Now what would be nice is if browser vendors changed how big 
 an EM is depending on the viewport size.

What's an EM? Stewart.

One of the units of measure that CSS recognizes. In theory its the size of the 'M' character for the current font face and size. In practice it... usually is. Its also generally accepted as a better unit to use than px (pixels) if you want content to resize itself nicely to fit different display sizes. (What looks nice at 50px on my screen, might be either invisibly miniscule or awkwardly huge on someone else's. At 10em it'll usually look much the same on mine and theirs.) -- Chris Nicholson-Sauls
Feb 28 2007
next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Chris Nicholson-Sauls" <ibisbasenji gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:es58u0$23fd$1 digitalmars.com...

 One of the units of measure that CSS recognizes.  In theory its the size 
 of the 'M' character for the current font face and size.  In practice 
 it... usually is.  Its also generally accepted as a better unit to use 
 than px (pixels) if you want content to resize itself nicely to fit 
 different display sizes.  (What looks nice at 50px on my screen, might be 
 either invisibly miniscule or awkwardly huge on someone else's.  At 10em 
 it'll usually look much the same on mine and theirs.)

Oh, man! You are going to get reamed _out_ because Stewart already knows what an em is. Prepare yourself!
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling parent Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Chris Nicholson-Sauls Wrote:
 Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Pragma Wrote:


 Now what would be nice is if browser vendors changed how big 
 an EM is depending on the viewport size.

What's an EM?

One of the units of measure that CSS recognizes. In theory its the size of the 'M' character for the current font face and size. In practice it... usually is.

Oops. I must be just not used to seeing the word written in uppercase. Actually, I think technically it's equal to the font height, and an en is half of this. But this doesn't seem to fit. Usually when people increase the size of a browser window, they expect to see more content at once, rather than to zoom in. Stewart.
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling parent Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
 Frits van Bommel Wrote:
 <snip>
 Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the page should be wider, 
 and use a larger font.  It only uses half my screen space with a 
 rather small font on my monitor.

Wrong again. It should have no width set at all.

It'll still have a width on my screen :P. (Note I didn't say anything about a width *property*, just the width of the page. You know, the English word "width"?)
  Fixed width layouts on web pages should never have been invented.

Very true. A portable document format (i.e. html) has no business specifying stuff in pixels. *If* a width needs to be set, set it in ems. (Long paragraphs can get hard to read if the text is full-width)
 Either specify font sizes in ems, not pixels or points, or don't specify them
at all.

This was pretty much what I meant to say. (I couldn't remember the name for the proper unit though)
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent janderson <askme me.com> writes:
DavidSwe wrote:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

Its about time the wiki got an update. It looks much better then before. -Joel
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent torhu <fake address.dude> writes:
DavidSwe wrote:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

How do you revert to the previous one?
Feb 28 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
DavidSwe wrote:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

Agh, I also didn't like the new layout, I'm glad it was reverted. -- Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Mar 01 2007
prev sibling parent janderson <askme me.com> writes:
DavidSwe wrote:
 I don't know if this deserves an announcement but I changed the layout on
wiki4d. I'm just waiting for someone to become annoyed with the new template
and revert it back to the default. Because then it's on!! :P
 The template is done by gorotron not by me. If you find any bugs feel free to
fix them yourselves...:D

If your going to change the format, what about something more like wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page)? I think that website looks awesome. -Joel
Mar 01 2007