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digitalmars.D.announce - Flower - announce and inquiry

reply bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Hello, guys. How are you doing. It's been quite some time since my last
announce here. I see a lot of development going on. Keep up the good work.

Two weeks ago I had some time to waste so I checked what is going on in the D
community and I saw announcement or something about Ddbg. I gave it a try and
it worker very good. The thing is that in the moment I am trying to save some
money for my education so I came up with this idea. I want to try to make a
commercial application. Initially it will be a ddbg front end, if there is
interest it may grow up to a full featured editor and project manager. Here is
a little demo I did in the last two weeks. In it is not fully functional but
most of the debugger's functionality is working. Please take a look and tell me
what you think. Do you like it? What do you not like? Would you be willing to
pay something like say 5$ when it is complete for it?
Fore some more info take a look in the readme.txt

And... I hate to sell anything, so when I raise enough money (no matter by what
means) it will be released as open source. The project is in D/DWT. The design
is fully modular so it will be easy to extend (once DDL is working :)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/1hhwux
Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent reply torhu <fake address.dude> writes:
I'd gladly pay $20 for something that's simpler to use than codeblocks 
or windbg, and has better D support than msvc 6.  That would save me 
hours every week.  It would probably have to be a debugger gui only, 
since a full-blown IDE written by a single person would most likely 
never reach a usable state.  It's just too much work.  I don't think the 
world needs another dead project in that category.

But a  dedicated gui for ddbg that actually works, is more or less 
stable (on windows, cross platform apps tend to only be stable on the 
platform that they're primarily developed on), and can be used without 
causing more hair pulling than it's worth, would be worth its weight in 
gold.  I challenge you to pull it off. :D

If I coded D for a living, I'd probably pay $500 for someting like that.
Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent reply BCS <BCS pathlink.com> writes:
torhu wrote:
 I'd gladly pay $20 for something that's simpler to use than codeblocks 
 or windbg, and has better D support than msvc 6.  That would save me 
 hours every week.  It would probably have to be a debugger gui only, 
 since a full-blown IDE written by a single person would most likely 
 never reach a usable state.  It's just too much work.  I don't think the 
 world needs another dead project in that category.
 
 But a  dedicated gui for ddbg that actually works, is more or less 
 stable (on windows, cross platform apps tend to only be stable on the 
 platform that they're primarily developed on), and can be used without 
 causing more hair pulling than it's worth, would be worth its weight in 
 gold.  I challenge you to pull it off. :D
 
 If I coded D for a living, I'd probably pay $500 for someting like that.

I second this. I know an operation that is looking at using D in for-profit projects. One of there biggest reservations is debuggers. Make Flower work and that starts looking like a vary small issue. BTW how hard would it be to put the who thing in a .DLL so that other programs could host it? That might get you a lot of the IDE side for free.
Apr 13 2007
parent reply Pragma <ericanderton yahoo.removeme.com> writes:
BCS wrote:
 
 BTW how hard would it be to put the who thing in a .DLL so that other 
 programs could host it? That might get you a lot of the IDE side for free.

FTW. Seriously, this is an excellent idea. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo
Apr 13 2007
parent reply bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
It is already a DLL. But since D sucks on DLLs and DDL is not working for me it
is statically linked. The design of the program is modular. Everything is a
module but I need some kind of runtime linker that will allow the plugins to
use the same runtime as the host, otherwise they can't modify the UI directly.
The design is as this. The debugger plugin is kind of general debugger. It need
interfaces. Another plugin is the ddbg interface, which could easily be turned
into a DLL (I mean a DLL independent of the flower framework), because it's
whole job is to be a proxy between the debugger and ddbg.exe. The debugger
plugin or the application knows nothing about ddbg. I forgot to mention but the
whole thing is kind of framework. It is the base of the program. A framework
for modular program. This framework will be released as open source when the
API matures a little bit, but the plugins which do the actual work will remain
closed for some time. But I will release one of the plugins as an example
plugin. This could be the ddbg interface. We will see about that. Everything is
too unmature now to tell anything...


Pragma Wrote:

 BCS wrote:
 
 BTW how hard would it be to put the who thing in a .DLL so that other 
 programs could host it? That might get you a lot of the IDE side for free.

FTW. Seriously, this is an excellent idea. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo

Apr 13 2007
parent reply BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
Does this mean that you are thinking about something similar to the netbeans
*platform* respective the eclipse *platform* ? using a plugin technologie based
on DDL ?
Bjoern

bobef Wrote:

 It is already a DLL. But since D sucks on DLLs and DDL is not working for me
it is statically linked. The design of the program is modular. Everything is a
module but I need some kind of runtime linker that will allow the plugins to
use the same runtime as the host, otherwise they can't modify the UI directly.
The design is as this. The debugger plugin is kind of general debugger. It need
interfaces. Another plugin is the ddbg interface, which could easily be turned
into a DLL (I mean a DLL independent of the flower framework), because it's
whole job is to be a proxy between the debugger and ddbg.exe. The debugger
plugin or the application knows nothing about ddbg. I forgot to mention but the
whole thing is kind of framework. It is the base of the program. A framework
for modular program. This framework will be released as open source when the
API matures a little bit, but the plugins which do the actual work will remain
closed for some time. But I will release one of the plugins as an example
plugin. This could be the ddbg interface. We will see about that. Everything is
too unmature now to tell anything...
 
 
 Pragma Wrote:
 
 BCS wrote:
 
 BTW how hard would it be to put the who thing in a .DLL so that other 
 programs could host it? That might get you a lot of the IDE side for free.

FTW. Seriously, this is an excellent idea. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo


Apr 13 2007
parent bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
I am not familiar with eclipse. I just use it for its visual editor for swt. I
have this design in mind since the old days when I was developing akide, but I
think yes, it is something similar.

BLS Wrote:

 Does this mean that you are thinking about something similar to the netbeans
*platform* respective the eclipse *platform* ? using a plugin technologie based
on DDL ?
 Bjoern
 
 bobef Wrote:
 
 It is already a DLL. But since D sucks on DLLs and DDL is not working for me
it is statically linked. The design of the program is modular. Everything is a
module but I need some kind of runtime linker that will allow the plugins to
use the same runtime as the host, otherwise they can't modify the UI directly.
The design is as this. The debugger plugin is kind of general debugger. It need
interfaces. Another plugin is the ddbg interface, which could easily be turned
into a DLL (I mean a DLL independent of the flower framework), because it's
whole job is to be a proxy between the debugger and ddbg.exe. The debugger
plugin or the application knows nothing about ddbg. I forgot to mention but the
whole thing is kind of framework. It is the base of the program. A framework
for modular program. This framework will be released as open source when the
API matures a little bit, but the plugins which do the actual work will remain
closed for some time. But I will release one of the plugins as an example
plugin. This could be the ddbg interface. We will see about that. Everything is
too unmature now to tell anything...
 
 
 Pragma Wrote:
 
 BCS wrote:
 
 BTW how hard would it be to put the who thing in a .DLL so that other 
 programs could host it? That might get you a lot of the IDE side for free.

FTW. Seriously, this is an excellent idea. -- - EricAnderton at yahoo



Apr 13 2007
prev sibling parent Ary Manzana <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
torhu escribió:
 It would probably have to be a debugger gui only,
 since a full-blown IDE written by a single person would most likely 
 never reach a usable state.  It's just too much work.  I don't think the 
 world needs another dead project in that category.

Hello all. That paragraph is it, except that it can be done, but it'll take a lot of time. I'm talking about Descent. I really could use some help, and I think that if more people would contribute to the project, D would have a nice IDE. Right now it isn't an IDE, but just because the project is a baby (raised without a mother! :-(). 1. Eclipse can already specify custom run commands, so launching rebuild from it should work. Additionally, I don't know a lot about rebuild, but if it has a configuration file that it could appear with nice colors and keywords, show an outline, etc. 2. Reading this article http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Debugger/how-to.html should be enough to make ddbg work in Eclipse. 3. Semantic errors, autocompletion, refactoring, etc., are harder stuff that may take a lot more time, but once done they'll rock. So I clearly see three points that can be developed separately[1]. It just needs to be done. Of course I can do all the work, and I'm sure by the time I'll finish it it will still be a very useful tool, but if just I weren't alone... I don't mind if the project still continues as a "single man" project, I'm alwaying learning stuff by reading the compiler front-end, the Eclipse framework, etc, plus it's always a joy seing something working nicely. I'd just really like it to be done for D (the language and the community), because it lacks such a tool, and each person I tell about D says to me "And, say, does it have an IDE? Not a good one yet? Oh, well, we'll just stick with Java". A couple of days ago I showed D to my coworkers and bosses, and they really, really liked it, but asked me that question, and afterwards the sad answer. The only problem would be bobef gains no money, but the project could accept donations, and if some guys here are willing to buy such tool I'm sure they'll donate if they can get it for free. Regards, Ary [1] There may be more, I can think of formatting, which can be implemented just writing an AST visitor, and cleaning up code (for example making each if always have curly braces... or never if possible, etc.).
Apr 13 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply torhu <fake address.dude> writes:
What do I need to do to start a debugging session?  I've put ddbg.exe in 
the same dir as flower_demo.exe, but it only says "Select a debugger 
interface fist" when I press F5.  And the debugger interface dropdown is 
empty.
Apr 13 2007
parent reply bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Check the status window. It should say

plugin loaded: debugge_ddbg

or something like that. I guess your unzipper is skipping the empty folders
inside the plugins folder, so the debugger interface plugin for ddbg is not
loaded. You can create it manually: plugins\flower.debugger_ddbg



torhu Wrote:

 What do I need to do to start a debugging session?  I've put ddbg.exe in 
 the same dir as flower_demo.exe, but it only says "Select a debugger 
 interface fist" when I press F5.  And the debugger interface dropdown is 
 empty.

Apr 13 2007
parent reply torhu <fake address.dude> writes:
bobef wrote:
 Check the status window. It should say
 
 plugin loaded: debugge_ddbg
 
 or something like that. I guess your unzipper is skipping the empty folders
inside the plugins folder, so the debugger interface plugin for ddbg is not
loaded. You can create it manually: plugins\flower.debugger_ddbg

Thanks, I actually wasn't aware that total commander messes up the unzipping like that. You should probably put a file in that dir so that it doesn't get skipped. Lots of broken unzipping tools in use. I have two questions for starters: Is it supposed to show source code? Didn't do that for me, but I didn't do anything specific to make it happen either. Are the keyboard shortcuts the same as another IDE/debugger? They don't match msvc 6 exactly. Then run to cursor would have to be ctrl-f10 instead of shift-f10. So I'm guessing a later msvc, or even windbg?
Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Yes, it shows the source. You need one more empty plugin dir -
flower.docmanager . It does when it reaches a breakpoint or you can drag and
drop to open files.

torhu Wrote:

 bobef wrote:
 Check the status window. It should say
 
 plugin loaded: debugge_ddbg
 
 or something like that. I guess your unzipper is skipping the empty folders
inside the plugins folder, so the debugger interface plugin for ddbg is not
loaded. You can create it manually: plugins\flower.debugger_ddbg

Thanks, I actually wasn't aware that total commander messes up the unzipping like that. You should probably put a file in that dir so that it doesn't get skipped. Lots of broken unzipping tools in use. I have two questions for starters: Is it supposed to show source code? Didn't do that for me, but I didn't do anything specific to make it happen either. Are the keyboard shortcuts the same as another IDE/debugger? They don't match msvc 6 exactly. Then run to cursor would have to be ctrl-f10 instead of shift-f10. So I'm guessing a later msvc, or even windbg?

Apr 13 2007
prev sibling parent bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
torhu Wrote:

 
 Are the keyboard shortcuts the same as another IDE/debugger?  They don't 
 match msvc 6 exactly.  Then run to cursor would have to be ctrl-f10 
 instead of shift-f10.  So I'm guessing a later msvc, or even windbg?

Oh.. Yes. I am using the msvc6 scheme. I probably misspelled it. You can edit plugins\flower.debugger\accelerators.kfg and change them as you like. Just keep in mind that line endings should be LF (\n) or it will probably not work.
Apr 13 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
Hi bobef,
Glad to pay something. 
But I would suggest to create the IDE/Debug frontend in TIOPORT SWT.
Once your tool is open source this will be nessesary; IMO
And YES I know, creating the Windows lib and di files for TIOPORT SWT is
difficult.. try it since about 4 hours :-(   

Bjoern

bobef Wrote:

 Hello, guys. How are you doing. It's been quite some time since my last
announce here. I see a lot of development going on. Keep up the good work.
 
 Two weeks ago I had some time to waste so I checked what is going on in the D
community and I saw announcement or something about Ddbg. I gave it a try and
it worker very good. The thing is that in the moment I am trying to save some
money for my education so I came up with this idea. I want to try to make a
commercial application. Initially it will be a ddbg front end, if there is
interest it may grow up to a full featured editor and project manager. Here is
a little demo I did in the last two weeks. In it is not fully functional but
most of the debugger's functionality is working. Please take a look and tell me
what you think. Do you like it? What do you not like? Would you be willing to
pay something like say 5$ when it is complete for it?
 Fore some more info take a look in the readme.txt
 
 And... I hate to sell anything, so when I raise enough money (no matter by
what means) it will be released as open source. The project is in D/DWT. The
design is fully modular so it will be easy to extend (once DDL is working :)
 
 http://www.sendspace.com/file/1hhwux

Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent reply "Frank Benoit (keinfarbton)" <benoit tionex.removethispart.de> writes:
 And YES I know, creating the Windows lib and di files for TIOPORT SWT is
difficult.. try it since about 4 hours :-(   

Please come to IRC and let me assist you. I really don't want you to loose time :) #d or #d.tango keinfarbton Or at least use the tioport forum to get my support.
Apr 13 2007
parent reply BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
Danke Frank,
I will ask you for support. Not today... because I am simply tired;
beside YOU DID A DAMNED GOOD JOB !!
Bjoern 

Frank Benoit (keinfarbton) Wrote:

 And YES I know, creating the Windows lib and di files for TIOPORT SWT is
difficult.. try it since about 4 hours :-(   

Please come to IRC and let me assist you. I really don't want you to loose time :) #d or #d.tango keinfarbton Or at least use the tioport forum to get my support.

Apr 13 2007
parent reply "Frank Benoit (keinfarbton)" <benoit tionex.removethispart.de> writes:
BLS schrieb:
 Danke Frank,
 I will ask you for support. Not today... because I am simply tired;
 beside YOU DID A DAMNED GOOD JOB !!
 Bjoern 

thx. i hope you succeed in building the lib and headers. Please contact me to get commit permission for the svn. Frank
Apr 13 2007
parent bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Yeah, me too. And please post a tutorial or something if you do :)


Frank Benoit (keinfarbton) Wrote:
 
 thx.
 i hope you succeed in building the lib and headers. Please contact me to
 get commit permission for the svn.
 Frank

Apr 13 2007
prev sibling parent reply bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Yes, of course I will. DWT is clearly dead. I even aliased it so I don't have
any dwt.* in my code ;) But I wasted like an hour or two trying to compile
tioport swt without success, so I will wait for the next tango version in hope
it will compile ok...

BLS Wrote:

 Hi bobef,
 Glad to pay something. 
 But I would suggest to create the IDE/Debug frontend in TIOPORT SWT.
 Once your tool is open source this will be nessesary; IMO
 And YES I know, creating the Windows lib and di files for TIOPORT SWT is
difficult.. try it since about 4 hours :-(   
 
 Bjoern
 
 bobef Wrote:
 
 Hello, guys. How are you doing. It's been quite some time since my last
announce here. I see a lot of development going on. Keep up the good work.
 
 Two weeks ago I had some time to waste so I checked what is going on in the D
community and I saw announcement or something about Ddbg. I gave it a try and
it worker very good. The thing is that in the moment I am trying to save some
money for my education so I came up with this idea. I want to try to make a
commercial application. Initially it will be a ddbg front end, if there is
interest it may grow up to a full featured editor and project manager. Here is
a little demo I did in the last two weeks. In it is not fully functional but
most of the debugger's functionality is working. Please take a look and tell me
what you think. Do you like it? What do you not like? Would you be willing to
pay something like say 5$ when it is complete for it?
 Fore some more info take a look in the readme.txt
 
 And... I hate to sell anything, so when I raise enough money (no matter by
what means) it will be released as open source. The project is in D/DWT. The
design is fully modular so it will be easy to extend (once DDL is working :)
 
 http://www.sendspace.com/file/1hhwux


Apr 13 2007
parent reply "Frank Benoit (keinfarbton)" <benoit tionex.removethispart.de> writes:
bobef schrieb:
 Yes, of course I will. DWT is clearly dead. I even aliased it so I don't have
any dwt.* in my code ;) But I wasted like an hour or two trying to compile
tioport swt without success, so I will wait for the next tango version in hope
it will compile ok...
 

For linux I use Tango from the current trunk, DMD 1.012 and the updated "rebuild" Can you give more informations about the problems you had?
Apr 13 2007
parent bobef <asd asd.asd> writes:
Sure, but not tonight. I will contact you in the forum or IRC the next
monday....

Frank Benoit (keinfarbton) Wrote:

 bobef schrieb:
 Yes, of course I will. DWT is clearly dead. I even aliased it so I don't have
any dwt.* in my code ;) But I wasted like an hour or two trying to compile
tioport swt without success, so I will wait for the next tango version in hope
it will compile ok...
 

For linux I use Tango from the current trunk, DMD 1.012 and the updated "rebuild" Can you give more informations about the problems you had?

Apr 13 2007
prev sibling parent Serg Kovrov <kovrov no.spam> writes:
bobef wrote:
 Two weeks ago I had some time to waste so I checked what is going on in
 the D community and I saw announcement or something about Ddbg. I gave
 it a try and it worker very good. The thing is that in the moment I am
 trying to save some money for my education so I came up with this idea.
 I want to try to make a commercial application. Initially it will be a
 ddbg front end, if there is interest it may grow up to a full featured
 editor and project manager. Here is a little demo I did in the last two
 weeks. In it is not fully functional but most of the debugger's
 functionality is working. Please take a look and tell me what you
 think. Do you like it? What do you not like? Would you be willing to
 pay something like say 5$ when it is complete for it?

Definitely! In my opinion small cute debugger front-end (with editing support) could be worth $20. And small cute debugger front-end with full-blown intelisense (class browser, 'jump to definition', 'find references', etc..) could be easily worth $50. -- serg.
Apr 13 2007