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digitalmars.D.announce - DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Reddit: 
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/

Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


Andrei
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
have another two or the grand to spend.

It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
wait 20 years for it.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
 I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
 have another two or the grand to spend.

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for it.
True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
 I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
 have another two or the grand to spend.

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for it.
True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max
And this is in miserable, cloudy, rainy England. They must pump out a lot more in somewhere like California.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell 
 the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max
Aye, that's what I was hoping to get (New York State would have given like 50% money back).... but alas I went and bought a house with a west/east facing roof, and a gigantic tree due south from me. The installer estimated I could still get maybe 70% of the system's capacity out of it, but the tax rebates get small fast if you go below 80%. My electric usage is small too, so the cost of installation adds up.... but still, it is virtually guaranteed to pay for itself over its lifetime and I have a good chance of turning a profit from it. That's so cool. Only downside is the upfront cost, and that isn't even *that* bad. And I guess my equipment waiting to be installed uses a grid tie inverter, so if main power goes out, I'm still out, no independence there. But buying batteries and switches for that would just about double the cost, and 99% of the time, grid power is on anyway so just not worth it for me.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years
for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20  
 years for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
I have to laugh at this. "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years" Solar isn't ready yet. It's not cost effective. But cost effectiveness isn't even the issue. It's not sustainable. You need fossil fuels to mine the materials, ship them, assemble the components, etc. Until you can power all those things with pure solar, you are still dependent on fossil fuel. I've seen all these "Solar farm" installations, and they are butt-ugly. I find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to make room for these things... You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways. I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it. When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits. -Steve
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
I have to laugh at this. "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years" Solar isn't ready yet. It's not cost effective. But cost effectiveness isn't even the issue. It's not sustainable. You need fossil fuels to mine the materials, ship them, assemble the components, etc. Until you can power all those things with pure solar, you are still dependent on fossil fuel. I've seen all these "Solar farm" installations, and they are butt-ugly. I find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to make room for these things... You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways. I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it. When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits. -Steve
It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain  
 circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it a good deal for the individual. Would you buy it if it was full price? -Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:54:34 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in 
 certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it a good deal for the individual. Would you buy it if it was full price? -Steve
Probably not. However, the subsidies have done a great deal to get the technology real-world testing in a variety of settings, as well as providing cash-flow for practical R+D, especially with regards to more down to earth practicalities. I would say it is - at the very least - not a complete waste of money for the tax-payer. P.S. I'm not buying it at all, my parents did as it represented a much better investment than any bank accounts. In particular, the energy companies pay quite a high price to buy the spare energy.
Jun 11 2013
parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:51:08 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:54:34 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin  
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain  
 circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it a good deal for the individual. Would you buy it if it was full price? -Steve
Probably not. However, the subsidies have done a great deal to get the technology real-world testing in a variety of settings, as well as providing cash-flow for practical R+D, especially with regards to more down to earth practicalities. I would say it is - at the very least - not a complete waste of money for the tax-payer. P.S. I'm not buying it at all, my parents did as it represented a much better investment than any bank accounts. In particular, the energy companies pay quite a high price to buy the spare energy.
For my day job, our company actually does energy saving retro-fits (all for refrigeration, but many companies do lighting and HVAC). It's an interesting business. Typically the utility pays for most of the cost, and part of it is from the government, but part of it is out of practicality. If they can pay you to lower your energy costs, they avoid having to build more power-plants because energy consumption is continually growing. But from what I've seen in Solar, it's more political than practical. Our paybacks without subsidizing are usually in the 2-5 year range. And our equipment is guaranteed for far longer. The incentive just makes it a real easy sell (usually under 2 year payback). We also sell to large companies that have humongous coolers/freezers (think like home-depot sized), and these places can have less than one year payback *without* incentives. -Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:
 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* 
 you can wait 20 years"
A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:18:09 -0400, Adam D. Ruppe  
<destructionator gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can  
 wait 20 years"
A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it.
But the difference is, houses frequently last far more than 20 years :) -Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20
 years"
A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it.
Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time, now (because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price increases). This means you are financially better off renting. Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one of them.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:51:53 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can  
 wait 20
 years"
A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it.
Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time, now (because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price increases). This means you are financially better off renting.
Define financially better off :) And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables to consider. -Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Define financially better off :)
You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?
 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables
to
 consider.
I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing. (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.) I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top. Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:29:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house 
 costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There 
 goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top.
This is a peeve of mine. I don't see my house as a financial asset, that is I don't see it as something to sell for cash. It's value to me is entirely derived from me living inside it. I saw a politician, President Obama I think, recently say "home values are on the rise, which gives more wealth to the middle class".... but is that really the case? The market value is only transformed into cash by a) loans, which aren't a net gain (excepting a lucky investment) because you have to pay them back or b) selling it. ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think raising property values makes me wealthier at all. But I do feel the house is worth it financially because it erases an ongoing cost down the road. The sum of my taxes and homeowner's insurance are about 1/3 what I was paying in rent, so after the house is paid off, it is like erasing eight rent payments a year. It'll still take time for that to exceed the mortgage cost, but it eventually will, and when that happens, the house could have a $0 market value and that wouldn't matter to me because it still does what I need it to do.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:55 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now homeless. And
 housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase the gains you got from
 selling the old house!
Yeah, I love that one.
 But I do feel the house is worth it financially because it erases an ongoing
 cost down the road. The sum of my taxes and homeowner's insurance are about 1/3
 what I was paying in rent,
Don't forget mortgage interest.
 so after the house is paid off, it is like erasing
 eight rent payments a year. It'll still take time for that to exceed the
 mortgage cost, but it eventually will, and when that happens, the house could
 have a $0 market value and that wouldn't matter to me because it still does
what
 I need it to do.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Jesse Phillips" <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're 
 now homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house 
 will erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I 
 don't think raising property values makes me wealthier at all.
But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't pay because your wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares!
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:36:11 -0400, Jesse Phillips  
<Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now  
 homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase  
 the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think raising  
 property values makes me wealthier at all.
But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't pay because your wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares!
In the US at least, only home sales (or transfers of ownership, like inheritance) are taxed. As long as you live there, they will not (and I believe they cannot) tax you based on the "current value." Property taxes are different, and you will be paying those no matter how you live (rent or own). And you are allowed to transfer equity from your current home into a new home tax free, even if you gained, up to a certain amount. I think there are limitations on how many times you can do this... The tax system is definitely set up to favor the homeowner, not the renter. -Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent Charles Hixson <charleshixsn earthlink.net> writes:
On 06/11/2013 08:59 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:36:11 -0400, Jesse Phillips
 <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now
 homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will
 erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think
 raising property values makes me wealthier at all.
But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't pay because your wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares!
In the US at least, only home sales (or transfers of ownership, like inheritance) are taxed. As long as you live there, they will not (and I believe they cannot) tax you based on the "current value." Property taxes are different, and you will be paying those no matter how you live (rent or own). And you are allowed to transfer equity from your current home into a new home tax free, even if you gained, up to a certain amount. I think there are limitations on how many times you can do this... The tax system is definitely set up to favor the homeowner, not the renter. -Steve
That's a state-by-state decision. As to whether it's fair...I could make a case against either side.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:29:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Define financially better off :)
You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?
 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so 
 many variables to
 consider.
I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing. (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.) I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top. Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
In my experiences renting in the UK, a lot depends on the local conditions. For example, low quality housing situated near a university is a fantastic investment as a landlord: There is very little domestic demand for those properties as the academics don't want them and nor do the better paid admin staff, so the prices stay low. However, the rental demand is intense, inexperienced and inflexible, keeping rents very high.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/11/13 5:29 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Define financially better off :)
You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?
 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many
 variables to
 consider.
I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing. (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.) I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top. Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
Whoa. I agree with all that, but this is well-known stuff, not obscure information going against common beliefs. There are a bunch of sites computing "buy vs rent" etc. Andrei
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:29:45 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Define financially better off :)
You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?
Cash is not always the only consideration. Equity has value. Quality of living has value, and can increase your financial situation. And depending on how much more "moolah", it might not be worth it. Consider that while you are renting, you are paying someone else's mortgage on that property, and at the end of the day (lease), you have nothing and they have a property, worth hundreds of thousands. Whether you succeed or not depends very much on the local market.
 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many  
 variables to
 consider.
I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing.
I never said it was *always* better, but it's not always worse either. Now is actually a very good time to buy, because prices are low. A house is a very safe investment, if you can afford the mortgage. Property will ALWAYS have value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.
 (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when  
 they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock  
 options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell  
 it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his  
 salary.)
Many people buy too much house for their salary. It's even encouraged by the banks/government, it makes the government "look good" when more people can buy houses. Then you get the market crash of '08. This is actually a pretty despicable practice IMO. Mortgages and housing investments are not things to take lightly, but we use "pre-approval" from the bank, as if the bank says "Yes, you can afford that house!" when it really has nothing to do with what you can afford. And then the government threatened to punish banks if they did not make sure low-income families were approved for houses they couldn't afford. It sounds like your friend was not in that dire of straights though, since he bought his house with cash. Cash that he didn't have before. I'm assuming he got most of that back (unless he was careless about his choice of house). As humans, we seem to consider loss of what we didn't know we had worse than never having gained it. A very interesting study posed two questions to people: 1. You are given $1000, without having done anything to earn the money. You then are given the option to take an additional $500 guaranteed, or a 50/50 chance at getting $1000 more. Which would you choose? 2. You are given $2000, without having done anything to earn the money. You then are given the option to lose $500 guaranteed, or a 50/50 chance at losing $1000. Which would you choose? The vast majority chooses the safe route of gaining $500 on the first question, but then chooses to risk $1000 on the second question because they HATE to simply give up $500 for sure. Most people don't notice that both questions are EXACTLY the same.
 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a  
 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of  
 your profits right off the top.
My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was 150% of the *purchase price*. Minus the 6% commission :) Although, it was only 3% because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not charge me her half. And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price invested when I sold. Of course, in '05 prices were inflated, so the house I bought with that money has since gone down in value. But I'm still pretty well off because of my profit from the first. And I have a very nice house, one which would be tough to rent at the mortgage payment I currently have.
 Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
They can. They don't have to go up as much as you think. They can go down. You have to be more aware of the market than with renting, that is for sure. But that is true for any rent vs. buy situation when you are looking at a large purchase. -Steve
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:29:45 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Define financially better off :)
You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?
Cash is not always the only consideration. Equity has value.
I know that. I took accounting, and know that any asset that can be exchanged for money is as good as money. Home equity can be quickly converted to cash via a home equity loan, or a bit more slowly by selling it.
 Property will ALWAYS have
 value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.
Unless you buy in Detroit! (And that's far from the only such example. Many small towns in America are like that.)
 Most people don't notice that both questions are EXACTLY the same.
Most people are math challenged. A friend of mine in the used car lot business told me that's how they make their money - off of people who simply don't understand how financing works, even when they're flatly told how it works. Pick up a copy of the book "Influence". I bet you'll find it fascinating! I sure did.
Jun 11 2013
parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:29:17 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Property will ALWAYS have
 value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.
Unless you buy in Detroit! (And that's far from the only such example. Many small towns in America are like that.)
Correction, unless you BOUGHT in Detroit :) If you buy in Detroit now, it's dirt cheap and you get what you pay for! Certainly it pays to do research about the community, and not just look at the last year of sales. My great uncle made his fortune during the great depression, simply because he owned land/property outright. When everyone lost everything, so many newly homeless people needed places to stay, so he built very modest very cheap housing. They were grateful to have a place to live, and he was able to avoid all effects from the depression because he had the one thing that everyone needs, and they're not making any more of :) -Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was 150% of
 the *purchase price*.  Minus the 6% commission :)  Although, it was only 3%
 because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not charge me her half.
 And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price invested when I sold.
Consider that you rode the real estate boom using leverage. But that lever works both ways, as many found out to their horror a few years later. You can lose a lot more than 100% of your investment when you lever. I've ridden a couple booms successfully, too. I made the mistake of thinking that was business acumen. It wasn't, as I got a very rude comeuppance on the back slope of the boom. I live in the land of the Microsoft zillionaires. It's fun talking to them about their wealth. Most of them realize that they're worth $20m because lightning struck them, and behave prudently. A few delude themselves into thinking they are wealthy because they are business geniuses, and wind up getting reset to zero. Microsoft stock has been flat for 13 years now, and it isn't going to happen again to them. I don't mean to discourage anyone from shooting for the stars in building their investments, I just want to point out that owning a home is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As always, caveat emptor.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:40:29 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was  
 150% of
 the *purchase price*.  Minus the 6% commission :)  Although, it was  
 only 3%
 because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not charge me  
 her half.
 And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price invested when I  
 sold.
Consider that you rode the real estate boom using leverage. But that lever works both ways, as many found out to their horror a few years later. You can lose a lot more than 100% of your investment when you lever.
Absolutely. But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay for it. The problem is when you buy a house that is beyond your means. Which a lot of people did.
 I've ridden a couple booms successfully, too. I made the mistake of  
 thinking that was business acumen. It wasn't, as I got a very rude  
 comeuppance on the back slope of the boom.
I don't have enough history yet, but so far, my real estate moves have been adequate, maybe a bit fortunate. It helps to have a friend in the business :) I certainly don't profess to be a professional real-estate investor. But I believe if I had chosen to rent, my current state would be VASTLY different than it is now now, and that wasn't exactly because of a bolt of lightning, it was an educated choice. It also helps not to live on the west coast, where house prices can be outrageous.
 I live in the land of the Microsoft zillionaires. It's fun talking to  
 them about their wealth. Most of them realize that they're worth $20m  
 because lightning struck them, and behave prudently. A few delude  
 themselves into thinking they are wealthy because they are business  
 geniuses, and wind up getting reset to zero. Microsoft stock has been  
 flat for 13 years now, and it isn't going to happen again to them.

 I don't mean to discourage anyone from shooting for the stars in  
 building their investments, I just want to point out that owning a home  
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As  
 always, caveat emptor.
Home ownership for *living* in, is not for wealth. It's for living. You compare it to renting. How much more/less does it cost to own vs. rent, and you have to consider the mortgage tax deduction, the property tax deduction, the equity you build, etc. It's not just a direct comparison of payments. This is all I'm trying to say. It can cost more to live in a house payment-wise, but you can be better off financially. It all depends on how much more or less it is. And the variables are tremendously varied across the country and even between two adjacent towns. Home ownership for *investment* is a completely different ballgame. There, you're comparing it to *not investing*, which costs you nothing :) -Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 I just want to point out that owning a home
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As
 always, caveat emptor.
I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main difference is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a stock. Andrei
Jun 12 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/12/2013 5:58 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 I just want to point out that owning a home
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As
 always, caveat emptor.
I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main difference is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a stock.
When you're comparing ownership to renting, the utility issue is moot. Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay 
for it. Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs renting.
 it was an educated choice.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat the success consistently. For example, a lot of CEOs have made fortunes for their companies by backing the right horse. Sometimes, people dismiss them as just lucky, being in the right place at the right time and guessing the right direction. But some CEOs repeatedly make the right choices, and that cannot be dismissed as luck. Examples: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. I also know a guy who sold everything at the 2000 peak and the 2007 peak. He tells me it was obvious, but I don't know anyone else who did both, although I know many who did one or the other.
Jun 12 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:20:30 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
  > But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you  
 can pay for it.

 Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs  
 renting.
Right, but my point is, if you don't sell, there is no financial windfall/loss. If you can afford to "ride out" the low period, you most likely will break even or make money when you do sell. Home prices pretty much are consistent, and go in cycles. Almost no houses go down to 0, and traditionally, the value goes up with inflation. It's normally a pretty safe place to store your net worth.
  > it was an educated choice.

 I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat  
 the success consistently.
The funny thing is, I'm not in home ownership to make money. I've lost about half of what I made on the previous sale, if I sold today. But I don't care. I just want a house to live in :) The thing I see as a large barrier to home ownership is the down payment. If you can get into home ownership, at a good time when prices are low, then you are set pretty much forever. But you have to have that large initial investment. Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, but you have to have the right goal. -Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks,
I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital improvements.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:33:26 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks,
I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital improvements.
I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead. Sheesh, so much literalism here :) -Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's: 1. trivial to buy and sell - a couple clicks 2. liquid - sell and get your money within minutes 3. trivial to borrow against - just write a check - no papers to sign 4. globally internationalized 5. fairly inflation proof 6. long term gains are fairly reliable 7. you can space out incremental sales in order to avoid a one-time boost into a high tax bracket 8. you instantly know exactly what it's worth A house: 1. hard to buy and sell 2. selling can easily be a year long process to get your money 3. hard to borrow against - need appraisals, approvals, piles of paperwork 4. it's literally nailed to one spot. location location location - bet wrong on that, and the economy will easily pass you by 5. reasonably inflation proof 6. long term gains again depend on location, location, location 7. no income averaging on a big gain 8. you never know what it's worth until you have a signed deed of sale, in fact, its value can vary tremendously (+-30%) depending on who happens to be looking for a house like yours. Zillows has only a vague connection to reality, and is only really useful if you have a cookie cutter house in a cookie cutter subdivision. Yes, I own my home. But it blows as an easy, predictable investment. You're not going to get a big score investing in SPY. But if you have a regular schedule of investing in it, over the long term, it's very very likely you'll be just fine.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so  
 much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:
If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years? -Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:
If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years?
If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means! BTW, SPY isn't a company. It is a tracker of the S&P 500, meaning it's 500 stocks in one package. QQQ is the one for the Nasdaq, and DIA For the Dow 30. http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/etf-list/?symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb "The investment seeks to provide investment results that, before expenses, generally correspond to the price and yield performance of the S&P 500 Index. The Trust holds the Portfolio and cash and is not actively "managed" by traditional methods. To maintain the correspondence between the composition and weightings of Portfolio Securities and component stocks of the S&P 500 Index ("Index Securities"), the Trustee adjusts the Portfolio from time to time to conform to periodic changes in the identity and/or relative weightings of Index Securities."
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
Why do those things pay dividends?
--bb


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Walter Bright
<newshound2 digitalmars.com>wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so
 much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:
If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years?
If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means! BTW, SPY isn't a company. It is a tracker of the S&P 500, meaning it's 500 stocks in one package. QQQ is the one for the Nasdaq, and DIA For the Dow 30. http://investing.money.msn.**com/investments/etf-list/?** symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb<http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/etf-list/?symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb> "The investment seeks to provide investment results that, before expenses, generally correspond to the price and yield performance of the S&P 500 Index. The Trust holds the Portfolio and cash and is not actively "managed" by traditional methods. To maintain the correspondence between the composition and weightings of Portfolio Securities and component stocks of the S&P 500 Index ("Index Securities"), the Trustee adjusts the Portfolio from time to time to conform to periodic changes in the identity and/or relative weightings of Index Securities."
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:53 PM, Bill Baxter wrote:
 Why do those things pay dividends?
S&P 500 companies pay dividends, and since you own a piece of them via SPY, you get paid those dividends.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:48:12 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright  
 <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so  
 much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:
If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years?
If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!
I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P -Steve
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
This was on NPR just this morning:
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/13/188979111/how-to-invest-in-real-estate-without-being-a-landlord
--bb


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer
<schveiguy yahoo.com>wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:48:12 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so
 much
 literalism here :)
I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:
If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years?
If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!
I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P -Steve
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P
Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of buying a house vs renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:18:58 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P
Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of buying a house vs renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.
That is where this started, but it's not what we were last discussing. The utility issue is not moot, it's never moot, because you have to live somewhere. Unless you're lucky (?) enough to live in your parents' basement rent free. -Steve
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 23:19:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of 
 buying a house vs renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.
The utility though is mathematically equivalent to the house cutting you a check each year for the difference of property taxes, insurance, and repairs and rent though. Which is virtually guaranteed to be a positive number because the landlord has to pay all that too, and presumably wants to turn a profit on top of it. It is fair to balance that against the downsides of mortgage interest and equity loss, but even if we assume 100% of the principle is just flushed down the toilet, it is quite possible for the utility to still be worth it in dollar terms, especially over 30 or more years of living in the house. Maybe not as big a gain as stocks or whatever, but also very low risk. Even safe stocks can dip right when you want to use it - imagine wanting to retire in 1930 - but you'll still be able to live in your house (and if it burns down, at least you have insurance so that isn't a total loss either).
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 7:14 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 The utility though is mathematically equivalent to the house cutting you a
check
 each year for the difference of property taxes, insurance, and repairs and rent
 though. Which is virtually guaranteed to be a positive number because the
 landlord has to pay all that too, and presumably wants to turn a profit on top
 of it.
Actually, real estate prices greatly outpaced the rents a few years ago, which is not surprisingly a strong sign of a bubble. It is not at all virtually guaranteed (not even remotely guaranteed) that rents will bring in more than the cost of the building. (People building apartment buildings go bust all the time.) A landlord cannot simply charge more - he can only charge the market rate. Landlords will often accept a losing rent agreement just to avoid losing even more money with an empty unit.
 Maybe not as big a gain as stocks or whatever, but also very low risk. Even
safe
 stocks can dip right when you want to use it - imagine wanting to retire in
1930
 - but you'll still be able to live in your house (and if it burns down, at
least
 you have insurance so that isn't a total loss either).
I understand the argument, but I believe the risk is much higher than others perceive it to be. Let's address the situation of having paid off the house, and owning it free and clear. What it's "costing" you is the opportunity cost of the money you could sell the house for. If your house is worth $200,000, if you sold it and collected the $200,000, you could invest that money and get a return. Then, to do a proper comparison, you'd compare that return against the cost of renting. Really, nothing fundamental changes once you pay off the mortgage.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/13/13 10:48 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
[snip]

This group is for disseminating news about D. Please do not use it for 
general and off-topic discussions, not even with the [OT] tag.


Thanks,

Andrei
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money 
 isn't reliably one of them.
I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage interest rates and fitting in principle prepayments into my budget tipped me toward the other side. (Then the landlord jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - this is the biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to deal with a landlord anymore!) But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing your own math before making a decision.
Jun 11 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one
 of them.
I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage interest rates and fitting in principle prepayments into my budget tipped me toward the other side. (Then the landlord jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - this is the biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to deal with a landlord anymore!) But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing your own math before making a decision.
Yes, not having to deal with a landlord is one of the nice perques. On the other hand, there's another landlord you can't get away from - the property tax people and the zoning people and the permit people. You never really own it. If there's an HOA, better read those covenants very, very carefully first. I own the house I live in, I find it worthwhile for me. But I'm not under any delusion that it's some great financial investment. I've previously owned 4 houses, and lost money on two of them (one of them pretty badly). If I sold my current one today, I'd lose a nice chunk on it. Renting can be nice. For example, if your life circumstances change, or you just want a change of scenery, you can just walk away from it.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer:

 I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to 
 innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize 
 it.  When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its 
 own merits.
The situation is far more complex than that. Bye, bearophile
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years
for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs. I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails. PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight. Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking. If you're considering a PV system, I'd ask serious questions about the useful life of the system, and what maintenance is required (at a minimum, they'll need the dirt and mold regularly cleaned off). Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 6/11/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance
 you
 can get replacement parts for 20 years.
I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or get spare parts (e.g. cars).
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:11 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 6/11/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance
 you
 can get replacement parts for 20 years.
I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or get spare parts (e.g. cars).
Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think that's an anomaly.
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Andrej Mitrovic" <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new 
 ones! But I think that's an anomaly.
I guess it totally depends on where you live. :)
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:47 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think
 that's an anomaly.
I guess it totally depends on where you live. :)
In the US. For example, my daily driver is an '89 Bronco II. I can get a new radiator for $20, brake calipers for $80, etc. It's amazing how cheap it is to keep that old heap running in top condition. Just try doing a brake job on a newer car. Ghastly prices. For older cars, like my '72 Dodge, a vast industry has sprung up to manufacture replacement parts, from original to much, much improved ones. It's really marvelous. It is interesting how my old cars are far, far cheaper to keep running than even regular maintenance on a newish one.
Jun 11 2013
parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:21:57 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 For example, my daily driver is an '89 Bronco II.
Had to look that up on wikipedia. Yikes, don't corner too fast in that thing, we need you alive!
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs. I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails. PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight. Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking. If you're considering a PV system, I'd ask serious questions about the useful life of the system, and what maintenance is required (at a minimum, they'll need the dirt and mold regularly cleaned off). Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.
A lot of the solar companies give great guarantees on the whole setup (assuming they don't go out of business of course). My parents have had theirs for ~5 years now with no problems at all, other than giving them a quick wipe once every few months and adjusting the angle for the seasons. Admittedly, one has to consider that in the UK they very rarely get particularly hot. We also don't get particularly pronounced day/night temperature variation compared to some places. There's probably some good data on the lifetimes somewhere.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.
Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups.
Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs.
That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 year warranty. Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has gained field experience.
 I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the 
 integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to 
 migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails.
That's true for certain kinds of dopants (it's particularly true if you have copper involved), but dopant migration is not an issue for any commercial solar modules that I know of. (The situation may be different for exotic technologies). This is because solar cells are very simple devices, they're just enormous diodes. Virtually all solar module failures in the field are caused by mechanical issues (bad solder joints, cracks, delamination), not by semiconductor degradation.
 PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight.
They do. Still not as hot as a CPU though!
 Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking.
Most of these problems were solved in the 80's. We were continuously doing accelerated lifetime testing of our own modules and ones from various manufacturers. Temperature cycling, humidity freeze, hail impact testing (that's fun), wind load testing (that's really fun), etc. For some silicon modules you can get oxygen-boron complexes induced by UV, which causes a slow reduction in power, but our modules survived 200 years equivalent UVB exposure with no degradation whatsoever.
 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some 
 assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.
That one is definitely true. Even worse is batteries for off-grid systems, batteries have a very short lifetime.
Jun 12 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/12/2013 1:04 AM, Don wrote:
 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Note that none of the advertisements,
 brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs.
That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 year warranty. Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has gained field experience.
Warranty is not the same as expected life, MTBF, etc. Anyhow, thanks for weighing in with a great post!
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Here's the beauty of it though: the manufacturer offers a 25 year warranty! I've heard stories of PV panels from the 70's still working too. I betcha the lifetime depends on your local weather conditions and such, I know heat can damage them over time, which might be a positive for being here in a colder area.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent David <d dav1d.de> writes:
Am 11.06.2013 14:33, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei
Regarding the IDE thing, did you ever try Kdevelop? Never crashed on me, has syntax highlighting, really basic completion (based on already written *words*, so really basic), but the amazing gdb integration known from C/C++ works! Definitly worth a look.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:33:03 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Reddit: 
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei
Torrents/links up: http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Juan Manuel Cabo <juanmanuel.cabo gmail.com> writes:
On 06/11/2013 09:33 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei
Great talk!!! Can't wait for faster CTFE, the new orange serialization library would benefit from it. --jm
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 06/11/2013 02:33 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


 Andrei
Nice talk. I'd like to relativize the statement about JITing CTFE though. This is feasible, even given issues such as global local variables. [1] I have a byte code interpreter for most of CTFE. I have been unexpectedly busy lately, but hope to get my D frontend out the door in a more or less respectable state soon. [1] Given that I understand the term correctly. Is this what you meant?: int foo(int x){ immutable globalLocal1 = 1; int globalLocal2 = x; int foo(bool first){return first?globalLocal1:globalLocal2;} enum y = foo(true); return foo(false)+y; } static assert(foo(2)==3);
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Basically just syntax highlighting. Most code editors support D these days. I also can't believe that just because an editor has support for D syntax highlighting will introduce more bugs. So is he saying that all editors are bad and crash? I mostly use TextMate (Mac OS X only) when coding D. Having support for D certainly doesn't make it crash more. There are one or two problems with TextMate but that has nothing to do with D and are easily avoidable. It has crashed once or twice for me but not that many times that it's worth bring up like this. Sublime Text is also a good text editor, available on Mac OS X, Linux and Windows. It's fast and stable as far as I'm aware. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 12 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a 
 lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote:
 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. 
 The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS 
 if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute 
 showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something 
 about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
What IDEs are crashing for you? Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can 
 imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler 
 editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't 
 crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't 
 think it has ever crashed.
I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that is somewhat different story.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander 
 wrote:
 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can 
 imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler 
 editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't 
 crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't 
 think it has ever crashed.
I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that is somewhat different story.
Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...
That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing
 (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of
 death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky
 enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will
 crash at startup...
That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:53:38 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that 
 worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it 
 ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some 
 vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.
Indeed. Software responsiveness is my #1 pet peeve with just about all software. If a video game can simulate physics, render millions of triangles, stream multiple channels of audio, and process game logic and AI in under 16ms then your crappy text editor can at least have the decency to put a character on the screen when I press a key without having to wait multiple seconds. From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to start up before I can start entering commands. People just don't care anymore. In 1977, when Alan Kay was describing DynaBook (basically, the iPad) he said: "There should be no discernible pause between cause and effect. One of the metaphors we used when designing such a system was that of a musical instrument, such as a flute, which is owned by its user and responds instantly and consistently to its owner's wishes. Imagine the absurdity of a one-second delay between blowing a note and hearing it!" http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m1977001_dynamedia.pdf 35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the absurdity isn't imaginary.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:00:26 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the 
 absurdity isn't imaginary.
The ipad amazes me. Not only is it brutally slow, but it crashes... a lot (the ipad 1 anyway, i've never seen the newer ones). Yet Apple has a reputation for quality. Maybe it is because their crashes just reset the device rather than giving an error message so people don't know whom to blame! idk. Another slow, unstable device? The playstation 3. The games themselves run ok, but turning it on and switching apps on that home screen is just atrocious.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:00 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
  From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to
 start up before I can start entering commands.
The perennial problem with JITs.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 13/06/2013 17:53, Walter Bright wrote:
 Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked
 instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today,
 with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to
 have 15 second delays.
We're talking about IDEs here, not mere code editors. There is a lot more going on in the application, much more potential functionality and more things for the IDE to analyze whilst the user works with the source. That said, 15 second delays, are not acceptable, not at all! But we are not "vendors": we're not selling a commercial product, nor a service, nor even are we getting paid to develop FOSS projects. This is something we work on our free time, and that greatly restricts the resources we have for that. And like Don said, in the D community there's still very few people working on IDEs, whereas the people and contributions for the compilers, Phobos and other librarys has increased significantly. It may simply be that more people/contributions are necessary for a good level of quality be achieved/maintained. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Peter Williams <pwil3058 bigpond.net.au> writes:
On 13/06/13 19:19, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while
 typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even
 have "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a
 crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your
 default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...
That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/
Geany works well for me. Syntax highlighting and a symbols navigation sidebar. Plus there is a customizable "snippets" facility (e.g. type "class" hit TAB and you get the shell of a class formatted how you like it, etc) if you like that type of thing. I believe that it's available for Linux, Mac and Windows. Peter PS On the subject of snippets, does any one know how to get a D specific .gitignore added to github's new repo interface? Currently, I just ask for the C one but D not being in the list of offerings makes it look like a second class language.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:19:33 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...
That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/
Very good editor, but as of stability, this isn't the best? I ca, make it crash quite easily. However, ti is really fast, including recovery after crash.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...
https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;) It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 12:39:49 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...
https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;) It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.
Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than compiler bugs. Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not commercially.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 13:22:23 UTC, Don wrote:
 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in 
 the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than 
 compiler bugs.

 Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a 
 state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using 
 them. Not commercially.
I have not yet managed to watch the talk (queued!), just noticed the comment that got my attention :( Sorry about that. My point is - they are stable enough so that you may not even encounter a crash for months or more unless you start using on some real code base extensively. No way it can be improved without bug reports. I don't ask you to use them - just check time to time and file issues found. Isn't it how mainstream D development works? The fact that Mono-D currently has _zero_ crash bugs reported & open is really surprising to me given comments in this thread. Judging by my experience Alex is a very responsive guy when it comes to fixing/tweaking Mono-D but he will need some details for sure.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote:

 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk
 is:
Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar panels. :p Ali
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:36:11 Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote:
 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk
 is:
Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar panels. :p
LOL. Yeah. That and the housing market. The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :( - Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :(
In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit.
Jun 13 2013
parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 20:29:34 Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :(
In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit.
Well, the fact that other discussions popped up isn't necessarily a problem. It's just a pity that there's been so little discussion about the talk itself. There wasn't a ton of talk in reddit either, but there was definitely quite a bit more there than here. I feel particularly sorry for Stefan Rohe's talk though. The _only_ comment that it got on reddit was Walter's post for the abstract. It's gotten more discussion here though. - Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 13/06/2013 10:05, Don wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine
 MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like
 Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been
 using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed.
I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that is somewhat different story.
Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...
Regarding DDT, do you mean a crash were actually the Eclipse application terminates? I find that highly unlikely, the whole codebase of Eclipse DDT is Java based so there should not be a crash like that (baring some old JVM bug, but even so...). A freeze is possible, if there's some infinite loop bug, or some massive slowdown due to a crappy algorithm (quadratic growth or worse) As a DDT maintaner I've never had a bug report, or even heard of such crashes. I can't guess people's minds..., and I skip most newsgroups threads if the title doesn't seem relevant. It was actually only by chance that I found this subthread discussing IDEs. I have heard about long pauses and delays, that I have. It's something that needs to be looked at, it's a massive issue. Even so I've never had any concrete bug report on such performance issues. Or even someone mentioned a concrete file I could take a look at and see if using autocomplete there was slow and unresponsive. My work on a new parser for DDT is nearly complete, a new version should be out soonish. And from now onwards it should be possible to tackle these issues. I do agree frequent crashes and long pauses should take precedence over nearly all other issues. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or 
 emacs :)
The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in the past. I had a file with a large array in it (hundreds of lines), and scrolling over those lines caused vim to stutter at about 1fps.
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 2:22 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in the past. I had
a
 file with a large array in it (hundreds of lines), and scrolling over those
 lines caused vim to stutter at about 1fps.
Back in the Bad Old DOS days, I had trouble with that with my text editor. The solution was to implement cooperative multitasking, where the computation of the display was disconnected from the command processing. The display computation would regularly check to see if it was obsolete, and start over if it was. Command handling always preempted. It worked like a champ, making the editor nice and crisp.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar. ... R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Colin Grogan" <grogan.colin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don 
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D 
 a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar. ... R
How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan <grogan.colin gmail.com>  
wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don  
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar. ... R
How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability, in other words trying to define the goal posts to work towards. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan 
 <grogan.colin gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don 
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help 
 D a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar. ... R
How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability,
Must not be worse than Notepad. <g> I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point. I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy. D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three working on IDEs. We need a couple more. And that's really all I'm saying.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:12 PM, Don wrote:
 Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>
May I present MicroEmacs: https://github.com/DigitalMars/med
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote:

 May I present MicroEmacs:

 https://github.com/DigitalMars/med
Only Linux and Windows support? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:40 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote:

 May I present MicroEmacs:

 https://github.com/DigitalMars/med
Only Linux and Windows support?
Others are trivially added if anyone cares.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:12, Don wrote:

 Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>
 I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point.
 I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy.
Give Sublime a try.
 D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three
 working on IDEs. We need a couple more.
 And that's really all I'm saying.
I agree. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:12:31 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan  
 <grogan.colin gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don  
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter:  
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar. ... R
How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability,
Must not be worse than Notepad. <g> I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point.
Ok.. but that doesn't give ppl anything to aim for as a starting point..
 I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy.
So you write all your code using "copy con"? :p So, you use vi?
 D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three  
 working on IDEs. We need a couple more.
 And that's really all I'm saying.
Valid point, but to get more people interested I think we need a concrete goal and/or a list of faults with the existing competition. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:
 What are the basic features you would require of a development environment,
People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:
 What are the basic features you would require of a development 
 environment,
People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line. Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. actually shows me what members a variable has, and not just some crappy lookup in the current file for potential members. Needs to work with templates, macros etc. as well. "Go to definition" and "Find all references" are must haves as well. Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed grep script that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs to work with templates, macros, etc. Basically, if the intellisense doesn't use a complete parser and semantic analyser then it probably isn't up to scratch.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 21:39:17 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:
 What are the basic features you would require of a development
 environment,
People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line.
The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical debuggers out of the water in terms of power. It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio definitely wins in that area. - Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly 
 interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to 
 blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.
What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Johannes Pfau <nospam example.com> writes:
Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly 
 interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to 
 blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.
What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?
Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point stack, status register and control register. I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that. Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite (https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault).
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 07:48, Johannes Pfau wrote:

 Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found
 this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating
 point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point
 stack, status register and control register.

 I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that.
 Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite
 (https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault).
LLDB is pretty advanced as well. The biggest benefit there is the integration with the compiler. I've watched some of the WWDC videos and you can do pretty cool stuff. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 05:48:17 UTC, Johannes Pfau wrote:
 Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200
 schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:
 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?
Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers?
Yes, Debug->Windows->Registers. A window with all the register values in it.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
 wrote:
 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are 
 fairly interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends 
 to blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.
What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)
The only thing that GDB can do that Visual Studio does not offer is a REPL like environment for C and C++ code. Visual Studio immediate window only supports managed languages properly. Everything else, VS wins hands down, specially when debugging data structures (thanks to visualizers) or multithreading/parallel code. -- Paulo
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?

 Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for 
 advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced 
 stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does 
 (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary 
 types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data 
 breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)
Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, especially for messy cases like stack corruption.
Jun 14 2013
parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:55 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? 
 When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of 
 own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, 
 especially for messy cases like stack corruption.
Yeah, you can script VS, although I haven't used it.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:18, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.

 It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of
 stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but
 you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced
 stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their
 graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio
 definitely wins in that area.
All graphical debuggers I have used (Eclipse, Xcode) are using GDB or LLDB as a backend. They all provide a command line for entering commands directly. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 21:39, Peter Alexander wrote:

 The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use
 Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has,
 but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you
 don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using
 gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the
 command line.
LLDB uses a far more consistent and logical structured commands than GDB. Although it doesn't support D. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:39:17 +0100, Peter Alexander  
<peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:
 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment,
People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line.
Agreed 100% - totally forgot about integrated debugging it's probably my #1 feature.
 Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. actually  
 shows me what members a variable has, and not just some crappy lookup in  
 the current file for potential members. Needs to work with templates,  
 macros etc. as well.
Meh, I could go either way on this, provided I have..
 "Go to definition" and "Find all references" are must haves as well.  
 Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed grep script  
 that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs to work with  
 templates, macros, etc.
These are essential, my #2/3 features. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:49:09 +0100, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:
 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment,
People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
I could go either way with intellisense. Sometimes I need a hand remembering what I'm doing, but mostly I'm just fine. What bugs me more is using an editor with no F1 -> go to documentation for this function or no F12 -> take me to the definition of this symbol. Those are invaluable - providing the help system doesn't take 10 years to load I'm looking at you (all versions of MSVC post 6). R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
"Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:
 
 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).
 
 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:
 
 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier
 to find/select/edit individual files
 
 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.
 
I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and "click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've never had it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources, ever. (It also supports ctags, although I've never used it.)
Jun 14 2013
next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 22:35:02 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
 "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:
 
 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, 
 those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly 
 flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).
 
 What are the basic features you would require of a development
  environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the 
 basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:
 
 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it 
 easier
 to find/select/edit individual files
 
 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.
 
I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and "click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've never had it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources, ever. (It also supports ctags, although I've never used it.)
Geany is also nice. It's slightly more IDE-like than the above but is still very lightweight and simple.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky  
<SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
 "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:
 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a development
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier
 to find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.
I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and "click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've never had it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources, ever.
Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 17 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote:

 Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a
 parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO.
I have that in TextMate :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 17 2013
parent Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 17 de June a las 12:42 me escribiste:
 On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote:
 
Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a
parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO.
I have that in TextMate :)
Same in VIM. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can try the best you can If you try the best you can The best you can is good enough
Jun 17 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky  
<SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:
 "click an error to jump to it's line in the source".
Is there a hotkey for this? .. it's little things like having a configurable hotkey (so I can make it F4 like in MSVC that make or break a new IDE/editor IMO). R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 17 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote:

 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point
 is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.
 It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the
 community to do something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's are crashing. Have you used Sublime, does that crash? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 13 de June a las 13:07 me escribiste:
 On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote:
 
Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point
is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.
It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the
community to do something about it.
Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's are crashing.
I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany moderately successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC, the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files (files that made the IDE crash consistently). I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are quite behind (at least in Linux). -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TIGRE SE COMIO A EMPLEADO DE CIRCO: DETUVIERON A DUEÑO Y DOMADOR -- Crónica TV
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).
I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable. If that's your requirements then you don't need an IDE, just an editor with syntax highlighting for D. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you 
 typically call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany 
 moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono 
 plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and 
 death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but 
 IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).
I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable.
I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
Jun 14 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:
 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't 
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he 
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is 
 stable.
I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable? That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are not good choices.
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:05:27 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:
 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is
 stable.
I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable? That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are not good choices.
I don't think that it's that he doesn't want them. It's that they don't matter until the IDE is stable enough that it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it doesn't matter what else it can do. But once it's stable enough that it doesn't crash and you can actually use it, _then_ you can discuss what other cool features it should have. Until then, it's worse than notepad. - Jonathan M Davis
Jun 14 2013
parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:51:57 +0100, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>  
wrote:

 On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:05:27 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:
 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is
 stable.
I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable? That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are not good choices.
I don't think that it's that he doesn't want them. It's that they don't matter until the IDE is stable enough that it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it doesn't matter what else it can do. But once it's stable enough that it doesn't crash and you can actually use it, _then_ you can discuss what other cool features it should have. Until then, it's worse than notepad.
I understood (t)his point the first time he made it. Lets assume we're in the development team for Notepad and we're trying to make it into the best D IDE in town. Lets assume stability is a solved problem. What's the next feature we work on? That's the Q we/I want answered so someone out there on the ether can either suggest an editor that meets the criteria or someone will be inspired to write one. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:40:40 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically  
 call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany  
 moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).
I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable.
I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
Notepad++ is better than notepad: http://notepad-plus-plus.org/download/v6.3.3.html Windows only tho I'm afraid. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 14/06/2013 08:40, Don wrote:
   EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
 Because they are unstable.
Just so we are absolutely clear, are you a talking about the current DDT project: http://code.google.com/p/ddt/ (formerly known as Mmrnmhrm) or EclipseD: http://www.dsource.org/projects/eclipsed which was formerly know as DDT, but is an *ancient* project, it was abandoned even before Descent and Mmrnmhrm came out. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <code klickverbot.at> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote:
 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. 
 The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS 
 if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute 
 showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something 
 about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
Link to bug reports?
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 12:33:03 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 Reddit: 
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/

 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a 
 lot.


 Andrei
Awesome talk, really inspiring. Great to see a D a success in commercial environment. I would love to make a switch to D already (from C++), learning it now, following all the updates and waiting for ARM support. Can't wait! I mean it, I actually miss not being able to switch now :P
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :)

One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management 
techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is 
generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at 
all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or 
simply judged by a common sense? Is keeping such restriction 
easier in D1 than in D2?
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Dicebot, el 14 de June a las 09:46 me escribiste:
 Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :)
 
 One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management
 techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is
 generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at
 all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or simply
 judged by a common sense?
I would say is enforced by reality. If we have a "leak" we find out sooner than later. Of course, having that experience people is extra careful when coding now about those issues. We are starting to implement code review as the team gets bigger, which also help to detect these problems earlier.
 Is keeping such restriction easier in D1 than in D2?
Yes, but is because of Tango, not D1. Almost every function that needs to allocate takes an optional buffer to work on (and for the ones that didn't we wrote replacements that used this scheme). That makes the programmer automatically aware of this buffer reusing. I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to completely avoid phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation. We even sometimes reuse exceptions to avoid allocating when something throws. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Todos en el mundo somos grasas, no hago distinción de sexo y raza, sólo que algunos lo disfrutan y otros no pueden evitarlo.
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to
completely avoid
 phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation.
Tango is available for D2 as well :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 14 de June a las 16:18 me escribiste:
 On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 
I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to
completely avoid
phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation.
Tango is available for D2 as well :)
Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could share the experience it would be appreciated. But anyway, the point is, it would be nice to be able to use the standard library and it would be nice if the standard library could cover the use case of people that can afford to have a lot of heap activity. It doesn't seem to be a very specific use case, at least not for commercial use, at least is the impression I got in the conference. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CHINO ATRAPA COTORRAS -- Crónica TV
Jun 14 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 23:09, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could
 share the experience it would be appreciated.
I use it :). My experience so far is if you don't take advantage of these buffers it can be a bit annoying. The reason is that most functions either return T[] or const(T)[]. If you use "string" in the rest of your code you cannot easily store a returned value to a "string" variable. I guess some of those could be fixed by returning inout(T)[] instead. Otherwise I think it's working good. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jun 15 2013
prev sibling parent "Joakim" <joakim airpost.net> writes:
Great talk, good to see someone talking about their real-world 
experience with D and Don kept it entertaining.

A quibble though: the title is horrible, as the talk has very 
little to do with metaprogramming, and those who aren't 
interested in the current title will just skip the talk.

A better, more accurate title and description might take it from 
the fourth-most viewed video to the most popular video, of those 
released so far.
Jun 14 2013