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digitalmars.D.announce - DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

Andrei
May 10 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei
May 10 2013
next sibling parent David <d dav1d.de> writes:
Am 10.05.2013 14:11, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:
 On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei
Onto reddit frontpage!
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:11:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei
Currently top of /r/programming hot :)
May 10 2013
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/10/2013 5:11 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5688464
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw ubuntu.com> writes:
On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>wrote:

 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=mPr2UspS0fE<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE>

 Andrei
Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? -- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
May 10 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-10 14:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 Are we releasing one talk every couple of days?
We want all talks right now :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 10 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org
 <mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>> wrote:

     Enjoy!

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=mPr2UspS0fE
     <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE>

     Andrei



 Are we releasing one talk every couple of days?
Two a week. Andrei
May 10 2013
next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw ubuntu.com> writes:
On 10 May 2013 15:38, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>wrote:

 On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org
 <mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail **erdani.org <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>>>
 wrote:

     Enjoy!

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?**__v=mPr2UspS0fE<https://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=mPr2UspS0fE>
     <https://www.youtube.com/**watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE>

     Andrei




 Are we releasing one talk every couple of days?
Two a week. Andrei
Just so long as I haven't aged a year before my talk is online. ;) PS: technically age a year in 18 days... -- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Two a week.
Is there a reason for this? -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 10 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/10/13 11:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Two a week.
Is there a reason for this?
Maximize impact. Andrei
May 10 2013
parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 15:26:07 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/10/13 11:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Two a week.
Is there a reason for this?
Maximize impact. Andrei
Well, just be careful because this could become a double edged sword. Some people "may" lose interest when the things are slow too.
May 12 2013
prev sibling parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 15:24:43 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Two a week.
Is there a reason for this?
It's good to keep people busy with D. ;) There have been way to many Go posts on reddit lately. :D
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/10/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 Are we releasing one talk every couple of days?
Two a week.
Initially I took this as a joke, but are you serious about this? Are we going to have to wait 10 weeks for all the videos to be uploaded?
May 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 21:12:00 Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 5/10/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 Are we releasing one talk every couple of days?
Two a week.
Initially I took this as a joke, but are you serious about this? Are we going to have to wait 10 weeks for all the videos to be uploaded?
He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact, because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more casual people viewing it. Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone. - Jonathan M Davis
May 11 2013
next sibling parent "Diggory" <diggsey googlemail.com> writes:
 He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video 
 gets minimal
 impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then 
 not bother with
 the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if 
 they're posted
 over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger 
 a impact,
 because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the 
 chances of more
 casual people viewing it.

 Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to 
 the conference
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how 
 quickly they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. 
 We'll keep
 getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of 
 several weeks as
 opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then 
 gone.

 - Jonathan M Davis
If there is such a long delay all that will happen is that people will forget/lose interest and stop watching the talks. It makes much more sense to release one each day or couple of days both to keep people interested and to avoid irritating everyone...
May 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-11 22:50, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal
 impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with
 the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted
 over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact,
 because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more
 casual people viewing it.

 Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep
 getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as
 opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone.
Can't we upload all of them somewhere more private. -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 12 2013
parent 1100110 <1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 05/12/2013 04:19 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-11 22:50, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 
 He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal
 impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not
 bother with
 the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're
 posted
 over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact,
 because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of
 more
 casual people viewing it.

 Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the
 conference
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly
 they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep
 getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as
 opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone.
Can't we upload all of them somewhere more private.
The problem with that is that some asshat will share them publicly to get karma. I understand why and I acknowledge it is probably for the best, but I wanna marathon dangit!
May 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:
 Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way.
I'm glad to see we have our priorities in order.
May 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way.
P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base.
May 11 2013
next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 23:35:38 +0200
Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly
 they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this
 way.
P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base.
I think some level of splitting-the-difference may be in order: I absolutely understand Andrei's reasoning and agree some level of staggering may be worthwhile for purposes of keeping D on the general public's radar. However, ten weeks is indeed a bit long, particularly if it's a deliberate staggering instead of simply a "lack of time" matter. And it does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to go but couldn't. Additionally, does it really make D look good if people notice "It took them two and a half months just to upload some videos?" Assuming there isn't also a "lack of time" issue getting in the way, I think spreading it all across one month sounds more reasonable. Plus, there's no reason we can't just simply delay announcing to reddit/ycombinator/etc.
May 11 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/11/13 5:54 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 And it
 does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to go but
 couldn't.
That I do take issue with. After the organizers and the speakers invested very significant effort in making this event happen, the basic complaint here is that they can't get free content out fast enough. It may be a nice idea to offer advance access to Kickstarter contributors though. There are three basic issues. One obvious one is postprocessing and uploading, work that's quite time-intensive and merciless (literally so as this thread shows). Second is keeping the temporal arc going with our announcements and discussions - releasing all at once would cannibalize the conference. Third, Kickstarter contributors have put money and speakers have put hard work into this; it would be disrespectful to _them_ to dilute the value of the conference ("nah, I don't care to go; after all I can always watch the free videos the day after".) We could and should adjust the release schedule to make it optimal with regards to the desiderata above. Two a week has been an initial thought. Please think it over and exercise reason. Thanks, Andrei
May 11 2013
next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 18:31:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Please think it over and exercise reason.
I have no problem with the pace, but then again, I attended the conference, so watching the videos is a review. And the slower pace makes it so that I can do things like post each one to my friends on google plus. Much faster, and it would be too much, too fast for them to pay any attention. I might get them to watch a few this way. - Jonathan M Davis
May 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 18:31:16 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 5/11/13 5:54 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 And it
 does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to
 go but couldn't.
That I do take issue with. After the organizers and the speakers invested very significant effort in making this event happen, the basic complaint here is that they can't get free content out fast enough.
[...]
 
 Please think it over and exercise reason.
 
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'll re-iterate a couple things: A. I didn't say "those who didn't" or "chose not to" go, but those who "couldn't". But more importantly: B: I said it *comes across* a bit disrespectful, I *didn't* say that it actually *is* disrespectful. Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. I was very careful to choose wordings that would not get misconstrued as such, so please don't twist my words into insults that I never made just because you don't agree with an idea that I merely placed on the table.
May 11 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei
May 11 2013
next sibling parent "Christopher Nicholson-Sauls" <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
I didn't get to go, simply because I could not make the time for 
it.  (Isn't it always the way...)  There are a few videos that 
I'm specifically waiting for, but perhaps more importantly I look 
forward to sharing them with specific people (the kind of people 
who might be able to convince stable companies to at least 
consider D for some of their work).

I also know that if I sent them a pile of links to hour-long 
videos, they probably aren't going to watch them all, if in fact 
any.  (Busy people are like that sometimes.)  I'm willing to bet 
there are plenty of other people on here doing the same -- and 
for us, at least, staggered releases are grand.  They create a 
"suspense" of sorts.  (Don't get me wrong, though... I'd totally 
marathon my way through the whole conf if they were all up 
tomorrow...)

That said, if a lot of current users are just too hungry to wait 
(and I can understand that!) then maybe speed it up /just 
slightly/.  Go 3 a week maybe? (Complete in 6.5 weeks.)  Or make 
it a video every three days? (Complete in 8.5 weeks.)  I don't 
really know what pace is best.  I am sure that all-at-once is not 
best -- for all reasons previously cited.
May 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "TommiT" <tommitissari hotmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best 
 release schedule.

 Andrei
I vote one video per day.
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day. -- Simen
May 12 2013
next sibling parent "Kapps" <opantm2+spam gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 08:55:03 UTC, Simen Kjaeraas wrote:
 On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely 
 suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* 
 a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should 
 all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day.
Agreed. Once you have videos coming in quickly, the amount of attention each talk gets diminishes heavily, including the amount of external attention D itself gets.
May 12 2013
prev sibling parent Faux Amis <faux amis.com> writes:
On 12-5-2013 10:47, Simen Kjaeraas wrote:
 On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day.
Whatever schedule is chosen, please make it memorable like "Tuesday && Thursday - D talk day".
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely 
 suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a 
 demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should 
 all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei
I guess is very culture-specific. Quite lot of programmers I know personally would have considered such marketing just for the sake of marketing an extremely hostile action and I personally have felt very frustrated when read that announcement. What I'd _personally_ like to see is all videos released at once but then once in a 2 days they get details nice description / summary prepared and announced via reddit-whatever only than. Can volunteer to do that "textification" if needed.
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely 
 suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a 
 demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should 
 all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
2 a week + early access to kickstarter contributors seems like the most apropriate compromise to me.
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely 
 suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a 
 demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should 
 all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei
As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
May 12 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote:
 As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say
stick
 with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that.
May 12 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Walter Bright, el 12 de May a las 11:42 me escribiste:
 On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote:
As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick
with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that.
As a speaker, as I said before, what would make me happy is to make my talk available as soon as possible. So, at least in my personal case, the "day in the sun" argument doesn't apply :) -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
May 14 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/13 7:29 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 Walter Bright, el 12 de May a las 11:42 me escribiste:
 On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote:
 As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say
stick
 with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that.
As a speaker, as I said before, what would make me happy is to make my talk available as soon as possible. So, at least in my personal case, the "day in the sun" argument doesn't apply :)
My aim here is to do the best for the D community. Andrei
May 14 2013
parent Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 14 de May a las 20:27 me escribiste:
 On 5/14/13 7:29 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
Walter Bright, el 12 de May a las 11:42 me escribiste:
On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote:
As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick
with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that.
As a speaker, as I said before, what would make me happy is to make my talk available as soon as possible. So, at least in my personal case, the "day in the sun" argument doesn't apply :)
My aim here is to do the best for the D community.
Yes, I know, and I appreciate it. I'm just saying that particular argument doesn't work for every speaker :) -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Los próximos veinte años se vienen a full, van a ser una locura tecnologica! -- Torto (abril de 2012)
May 15 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/12/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
Let's take a quick poll on how often we should make new pull requests. I say let's limit ourselves to only two per week.
May 12 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/12/13 9:14 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 5/12/13, Andrei Alexandrescu<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
Let's take a quick poll on how often we should make new pull requests. I say let's limit ourselves to only two per week.
Again, I don't understand what the problem is. It is my opinion that it's best for D if we release videos on a schedule, and I explained what makes me think so. Could you please do the same? Thanks, Andrei
May 12 2013
parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/12/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 Again, I don't understand what the problem is.
I understand now this is made this way to encourage discussions. I apologize if I sounded smug, it was uncalled for.
May 17 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best 
 release schedule.
I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
May 12 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/12/13 9:49 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release
 schedule.
I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! Andrei
May 12 2013
next sibling parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 14:16:26 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/12/13 9:49 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best 
 release
 schedule.
I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! Andrei
I definitely agree.
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 05/12/2013 10:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule!
+1, Reasonable compromise
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Diggory" <diggsey googlemail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 14:16:26 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule!

 Andrei
+1
May 12 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/12/2013 7:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule!
That does fit in with the observed phenomenon that a posting on reddit has a shelf life of about 2 days, and the statistics that posting on reddit on a weekend dooms it.
May 12 2013
parent 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 05/12/2013 01:44 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 5/12/2013 7:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule!
=20 That does fit in with the observed phenomenon that a posting on reddit has a shelf life of about 2 days, and the statistics that posting on reddit on a weekend dooms it. =20
+1
May 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Dmitry Olshansky <dmitry.olsh gmail.com> writes:
12-May-2013 17:49, Adam D. Ruppe пишет:
 On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release
 schedule.
I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
+1 -- Dmitry Olshansky
May 12 2013
prev sibling parent "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> writes:
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 13:49:05 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best 
 release schedule.
I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
+1
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Alix Pexton <alix.DOT.pexton gmail.DOT.com> writes:
On 12/05/2013 01:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.

 Andrei
I think 2 a week is about right. I watched Ali's twice, and might watch it again, I'm sure I've not taken it all in yet! If they are all released too quickly, there won't be time to digest and discuss them. The only downside to releasing them too slowly, imho, is that their impact might get diluted by the newsgroup chatter about them from those who got the t-shirt. A...
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 20:22:57 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a
 demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should
 all be released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
Not to make any particular point here, but given this current discussion, I found this recent comment hilariously ironic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694302 :) Again, I'm not posting that link to make any point, I just found it amusing to come across and wanted to share.
May 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 12 May 2013 01:22:57 +0100, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
I agree that 2 a week is reasonable given the motivations and reasoning already discussed. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 20:22:57 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current. 3 a week is max. BTW, this whole "I need it now" mentality reminds me of my first days of having a TiVo. My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a specific show name, on any channel. We set it up. We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of "Law and Order" to watch. In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, "aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch" When it became a chore, we deleted the "season pass". Now, this is different, because there are only 20 "episodes" in existence, and there will be no more until next year. But the effect is similar. I will watch one or two, and none of the others (I've seen them all live, mind you), but others will choose other talks to watch. Already there have been some interesting discussions on the available talks that would be lost in the noise if all were immediately available. It's nice to have everyone "stuck" at the same episode so you can discuss it at the same time! Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for a few weeks, and then all will be available at once. This is like waiting for the season to come out on dvd or netflix :) -Steve
May 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/13/2013 9:04 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for a few weeks, and
 then all will be available at once.  This is like waiting for the season to
come
 out on dvd or netflix :)
Yeah, I'll often record a whole season on the dvr, then watch it in a marathon session!
May 13 2013
parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 13 May 2013 at 17:18:34 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 5/13/2013 9:04 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for 
 a few weeks, and
 then all will be available at once.  This is like waiting for 
 the season to come
 out on dvd or netflix :)
Yeah, I'll often record a whole season on the dvr, then watch it in a marathon session!
I do the same, but I guess in case of D, we are not the one to convince as we already are.
May 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-13 18:04, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current.  3 a
 week is max.

 BTW, this whole "I need it now" mentality reminds me of my first days of
 having a TiVo.

 My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing
 too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a
 specific show name, on any channel.  We set it up.

 We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of "Law and Order" to watch.  In
 about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying,
 "aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch"  When it became a chore, we
 deleted the "season pass".
That's a bit much. I used to watch three episodes, around 40 minutes each, at once. Now I only have time for one episode. But I still get to see one per day. -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 13 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 14:35:14 -0400, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 On 2013-05-13 18:04, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current.  3 a
 week is max.

 BTW, this whole "I need it now" mentality reminds me of my first days of
 having a TiVo.

 My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing
 too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a
 specific show name, on any channel.  We set it up.

 We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of "Law and Order" to watch.  In
 about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying,
 "aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch"  When it became a chore, we
 deleted the "season pass".
That's a bit much. I used to watch three episodes, around 40 minutes each, at once. Now I only have time for one episode. But I still get to see one per day.
My point was, I would not like to see d conference videos becoming a "chore" to watch so you can keep up with the latest discussion. -Steve
May 13 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-13 20:41, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 My point was, I would not like to see d conference videos becoming a
 "chore" to watch so you can keep up with the latest discussion.
Oh, you mean the discussion. I was just thinking, if you don't want to watch more, then don't. -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/13/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying,
 "aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch"  When it became a chore, we
 deleted the "season pass".
Isn't this an issue with Tivo only having limited space to keep the episodes, essentially forcing you to watch something or delete it? This is not an issue with your average PC hard drive. Also, you may not want to watch every episode. For example if I think an episode is bad I just won't watch it, I'll watch the next episode. This probably won't work with series that have a continuous storyline, but with conference videos every "episode" is unique, and I'm really not interested in all of them. Having a delay of several days between releases does nothing to make me more interested in a talk. As for watching several hours per day, that's ok with me (e.g. if it's a really good series). If I have a free day to spare I'll watch any number of episodes if it's a really good show (Breaking Bad, Dexter, La Femme Nikita, just to name a few, were all great to watch eagerly). But this is clearly a YMMV territory, everyone has different needs. Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*.
May 13 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:43:01 -0400, Andrej Mitrovic  
<andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 On 5/13/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and  
 saying,
 "aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch"  When it became a chore, we
 deleted the "season pass".
Isn't this an issue with Tivo only having limited space to keep the episodes, essentially forcing you to watch something or delete it? This is not an issue with your average PC hard drive.
In our case, it was more of the fact that we didn't have time to watch all Law and Order episodes in existence, as there was about 4 per day on TNT + the newest one on NBC or whatever channel that was :) At the time, I had I think 80 hours available (at low quality), so running out of space was not a problem. But there is something about having it *available* that compels you to watch it, and eventually ends up making you resent the availability, however irrational that is (I mean, TiVo took the time to record all these, the least we can do is watch them. He's so cute too, why do they make him so CUTE with that fucking smile and sliding through the virtual world of video bits! Curse you TiVo!) But it's not a direct comparison, as I noted. The issue I think we want to avoid is to have everyone HAVING to watch all the talks in order to participate in the discussion. All us conference goers could be having related "insiders" discussions all over the newsgroups, but I think we have all pretty much refrained from doing that. Even if that's not the main point of the delay, it's good to consider that NG threads have a short life, and you want to have as many involved as possible.
 Also, you may not want to watch every episode. For example if I think
 an episode is bad I just won't watch it, I'll watch the next episode.
 This probably won't work with series that have a continuous storyline,
 but with conference videos every "episode" is unique, and I'm really
 not interested in all of them. Having a delay of several days between
 releases does nothing to make me more interested in a talk.
Believe me, I was definitely interested only in a few, and I was just a bit unenthusiastic on watching all of them to get to those. I was very much proven wrong. All the talks were good. I think this is important to note.
 As for watching several hours per day, that's ok with me (e.g. if it's
 a really good series). If I have a free day to spare I'll watch any
 number of episodes if it's a really good show (Breaking Bad, Dexter,
 La Femme Nikita, just to name a few, were all great to watch eagerly).
It shouldn't be a requirement, though.
 But this is clearly a YMMV territory, everyone has different needs.

 Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*.
I think part of it is logistics and preparation. You simply can't upload them all at once and have them all available at once. There must be SOME delay between postings that lasts longer than watching each video. The extension is simply to spread out the discussion/impact. I think it is a wise PR move. -Steve
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:43:01 -0400, Andrej Mitrovic  
<andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*.
BTW, for comparison: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Videos posted: 7/10/2008 http://forum.dlang.org/post/g54ptt$2so2$1 digitalmars.com Reminds me of Lewis CK's "Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy" http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8m5d0_everything-is-amazing-and-nobody-i_fun#.UZFpsBM199c -Steve
May 13 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 05/13/2013 03:41 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007

 Videos posted: 7/10/2008
 http://forum.dlang.org/post/g54ptt$2so2$1 digitalmars.com
I found the videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/braddr1 Ali
May 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 BTW, for comparison:

 Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007

 Slides posted: 7/10/2008
I wasn't around back then. :) On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 Reminds me of Lewis CK's "Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy"
Well there's always going to be a difference in expectations between the old and new generation. Some things become great, others start to suck. For example I've got this microwave at home which is more than 20 years old, and it still works as great as day 1. Whereas I once bought a (not so cheap) toaster and it broke within a month. Not everything is amazing these days at all. And once you add artificial restrictions to something, people get mad. On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 But there is something about having it *available* that compels you to watch
it, and eventually ends up making you resent the availability
YMMV (or MMMV). :) Anyway, yeah this was made to encourage discussions on every presentation, I understand this now.
May 15 2013
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Wed, 15 May 2013 20:18:26 +0200
Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 BTW, for comparison:

 Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007

 Slides posted: 7/10/2008
I wasn't around back then. :)
You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;)
 On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> wrote:
 Reminds me of Lewis CK's "Everything is amazing, and nobody is
 happy"
Well there's always going to be a difference in expectations between the old and new generation. Some things become great, others start to suck. For example I've got this microwave at home which is more than 20 years old, and it still works as great as day 1. Whereas I once bought a (not so cheap) toaster and it broke within a month. Not everything is amazing these days at all.
Same here. I looked everywhere trying to find a wide-slot toaster that *wasn't* 50's retro, managed to find *one* and it started having problems within just a few months. About 3 years later now, and I still put up with it anyway :) (It's not dangerously bad, the darkness setting just doesn't work unless it's all the way at "light".)
 And once you add artificial restrictions to something, people get mad.
 
And rightfully so! Which sometimes makes me think I'd be better off knowing nothing about computers. Then, just like all the happy people I see, I'd never notice the artificiality of the restrictions ;)
May 15 2013
next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 5/16/13, Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:
 I wasn't around back then. :)
You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;)
I'm still learning the alphabet, I'm only at D now!
May 15 2013
prev sibling parent "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 16 May 2013 01:40:51 +0200, Andrej Mitrovic  
<andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 On 5/16/13, Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:
 I wasn't around back then. :)
You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;)
I'm still learning the alphabet, I'm only at D now!
Now try writing that using only the letters you supposedly know. :p -- Simen
May 16 2013
prev sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, May 13, 2013 23:43:01 Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*.
Well, AFAIK, it was never stated that the videos would be posted quickly. For a while, it wasn't even clear whether the conference would even be recorded. So, we're very lucky to have what we have, and Andrei isn't doing anything different from what he said he was going to do. He just isn't doing what some people expected. - Jonathan M Davis
May 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste:
 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for "PR" reasons. I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual stuff and link it in the conference website). People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it. People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification about a new video once in a while. Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
May 14 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste:
 On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
 that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
 or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
 released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for "PR" reasons.
With all due respect I'd dare ask how versed you are in organizing conferences, PR campaigns, or anything related. Releasing video recordings with a delay has been the policy of all recent conferences I've participated or organized.
 I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how
 making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep
 D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual
 stuff and link it in the conference website).
There is evidence indicating we are doing the right thing. On what basis do you believe it's negative for PR?
 People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it.
 People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification
 about a new video once in a while.
People who are actively looking for the stuff will sure find it forever - just with a little delay at start, which I have explained why I find entirely reasonable.
 Still, 10 months seems crazy. As
 somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most.
With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. Andrei
May 14 2013
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 Still, 10 months seems crazy. As
 somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at  
 most.
With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable.
I think either misunderstanding or typo here. The original release schedule was to happen over 10 WEEKS not 10 months (2 per week, for 20 videos, that's 10 weeks or roughly 2.5 months). -Steve
May 14 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer, el 14 de May a las 20:35 me escribiste:
 On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 
On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
Still, 10 months seems crazy. As
somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2
at most.
With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable.
I think either misunderstanding or typo here. The original release schedule was to happen over 10 WEEKS not 10 months (2 per week, for 20 videos, that's 10 weeks or roughly 2.5 months).
OK, yeah, I thought I read 10 months somewhere and didn't do the math myself. 2.5 months is still high for my taste (and I insist, only if is just a marketing issue and not the lack of power to edit the talks), but more reasonable. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The number of wars fought between countries That both have at least one McDonalds is zero
May 15 2013
parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 at 20:08:23 UTC, Leandro Lucarella 
wrote:
 OK, yeah, I thought I read 10 months somewhere and didn't do 
 the math
 myself. 2.5 months is still high for my taste (and I insist, 
 only if is
 just a marketing issue and not the lack of power to edit the 
 talks), but
 more reasonable.
Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion, creating a new one on every answer you make.
May 15 2013
next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-05-16 05:48, deadalnix wrote:

 Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion,
 creating a new one on every answer you make.
At don't see a split in this topic at all using Thunderbird. That's probably a first time. -- /Jacob Carlborg
May 16 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 07:55:14 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-16 05:48, deadalnix wrote:

 Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the 
 discussion,
 creating a new one on every answer you make.
At don't see a split in this topic at all using Thunderbird. That's probably a first time.
It is something about web interface.
May 16 2013
prev sibling parent 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 05/16/2013 02:55 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-05-16 05:48, deadalnix wrote:
=20
 Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion,
 creating a new one on every answer you make.
=20 At don't see a split in this topic at all using Thunderbird. That's probably a first time. =20
ditto for icedove
May 16 2013
prev sibling parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
deadalnix, el 16 de May a las 05:48 me escribiste:
 On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 at 20:08:23 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
OK, yeah, I thought I read 10 months somewhere and didn't do the
math
myself. 2.5 months is still high for my taste (and I insist, only
if is
just a marketing issue and not the lack of power to edit the
talks), but
more reasonable.
Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion, creating a new one on every answer you make.
Thanks for pointing that out, but I think there is a problem with the forum software (I guess you are reading the NG using the web forums?). My client properly set the In-Reply-To: header. I checked manually the e-mail you replied to and have the correct Message-ID: of the post I was replying to in the In-Reply-To: header. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Breathe, breathe in the air. Don't be afraid to care. Leave but don't leave me. Look around and choose your own ground.
May 16 2013
parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 08:08:37 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 Thanks for pointing that out, but I think there is a problem 
 with the
 forum software (I guess you are reading the NG using the web 
 forums?).
 My client properly set the In-Reply-To: header. I checked 
 manually the
 e-mail you replied to and have the correct Message-ID: of the 
 post I was
 replying to in the In-Reply-To: header.
The problem is with Mailman, which is used to provide access to the newsgroups in the form of a mailing list. Mailman rewrites message IDs, so a mailing list user replying to a mailing list user will break threading. Sidenote: your client does not support format=flowed, which causes text quoted from your posts to appear jagged.
May 17 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 
 Still, 10 months seems crazy. As
 somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at
 most.
With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable.
5 weeks < 2 months He never said that was unreasonable, in fact just the opposite.
May 14 2013
prev sibling parent Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 14 de May a las 20:26 me escribiste:
 On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste:
On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest
that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand
or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be
released as soon as is technically feasable.
Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for "PR" reasons.
With all due respect I'd dare ask how versed you are in organizing conferences, PR campaigns, or anything related. Releasing video recordings with a delay has been the policy of all recent conferences I've participated or organized.
I organized a few a while back in Argentina but as I mentioned before privately in the conference, there were more like open events to spread the word, not closed, more developer-oriented conferences. But anyway, I was talking purely from the "user" POV, I don't claim to have any knowledge about PR or marketing at all (even more, I tend to hate marketing because it based on introducing artificial artifacts or manipulating the reality in some way, but that's a different topic). One example conference that I certainly know that releases all the material at once is the LLVM conference, for example: http://isocpp.org/blog/2013/05/clang-llvm-conference-videos-and-slides-are-now-available I know other linux conferences do that but I can't remember particular examples right now.
I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how
making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep
D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual
stuff and link it in the conference website).
There is evidence indicating we are doing the right thing. On what basis do you believe it's negative for PR?
My personal experience, just that. For me it sucks not being able to see the talks I couldn't attend. I just assume there is more people like me out there, I guess is not a very wild guess (in fact there has been quite a few other people complaining about this in the NG, even when some supported spreading the videos releases thinking it was better for D).
People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it.
People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification
about a new video once in a while.
People who are actively looking for the stuff will sure find it forever - just with a little delay at start, which I have explained why I find entirely reasonable.
Well, we disagree, I think people actively looking for the stuff should be able to access the stuff (when is technically possible to do so). Again, I agree that spreading the announcements in reddit over time is a good thing.
Still, 10 months seems crazy. As
somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most.
With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable.
If you read the text you are quoting, I'm saying between 1 and 2 months seems reasonable (so I can't explain why is it unreasonable :) I can live with that, even when I still think it will be way better to just upload everything and only make the announcements three times a week. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hoy traje las fotos de mi colon, las quieren ver? -- Rata
May 15 2013
prev sibling parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 11 May 2013 at 22:31:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 It may be a nice idea to offer advance access to Kickstarter 
 contributors though.
Again, be careful with that decision. For example, this seems to be reasonable at first, but doing this would NOT be nice with the developers in this community who couldn't afford with kickstarter, but contribute in another way, like for example: fixing bugs. PS: I'm not included in any of these case here.
May 12 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/11/13 5:35 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis<jmdavisProg gmx.com>  wrote:
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way.
P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base.
I think our approach is entirely reasonable. What exactly are you unhappy about? Andrei
May 11 2013
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 18:15:41 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 5/11/13 5:35 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis<jmdavisProg gmx.com>  wrote:
 and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly
 they're
 released, but it produces better PR for the language this way.
P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base.
I think our approach is entirely reasonable. What exactly are you unhappy about?
He wants to watch them all now (or at least as fast as he can get through them), and by pacing them out like this, he has to wait two months to be able to see them all. - Jonathan M Davis
May 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jesse Phillips" <Jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
These need to be updates on Kickstarter too.
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Enjoy!
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
 
Will this be going up on archive.org, too?
May 10 2013
parent reply David <d dav1d.de> writes:
Am 10.05.2013 19:28, schrieb Nick Sabalausky:
 On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
Will this be going up on archive.org, too?
https://archive.org/details/dconf2013-day01-talk02
May 10 2013
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Fri, 10 May 2013 19:48:09 +0200
David <d dav1d.de> wrote:

 Am 10.05.2013 19:28, schrieb Nick Sabalausky:
 On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
Will this be going up on archive.org, too?
https://archive.org/details/dconf2013-day01-talk02
Hmm, that's strange, it's not showing up (yet?) when searching their site for "dconf": https://archive.org/search.php?query=dconf Anyway, thanks.
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 Enjoy!
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
 
Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ I don't know how much interest there is in torrents of these now that archive.org is (awesomely) hosting direct downloads of the original full quality. But since I'm planning on grabbing all of them anyway, I may as well continue tossing the torrents together while I'm at it.
May 10 2013
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 05/10/2013 11:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the
 full-quality MP4 (from archive.org):

 http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/
Thank you for doing this!
 I don't know how much interest there is in torrents
Never used torrents... :) Ali
May 10 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Flamaros" <flamaros.xavier gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 18:45:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 Enjoy!
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
 
Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ I don't know how much interest there is in torrents of these now that archive.org is (awesomely) hosting direct downloads of the original full quality. But since I'm planning on grabbing all of them anyway, I may as well continue tossing the torrents together while I'm at it.
I prefers the torrent, thx.
May 10 2013
parent 1100110 <1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 05/10/2013 08:00 PM, Flamaros wrote:
 On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 18:45:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400
 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ I don't know how much interest there is in torrents of these now that archive.org is (awesomely) hosting direct downloads of the original full quality. But since I'm planning on grabbing all of them anyway, I may as well continue tossing the torrents together while I'm at it.
I prefers the torrent, thx.
I do as well, I shall seed.
May 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Very good talk. One more vote up!
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Mariusz `shd` =?UTF-8?B?R2xpd2nFhHNraSI=?= <alienballance gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
I've added them to wiki. Will URLs like http://dconf.org/talks/bright.html be active in like 2 or more years? It would be great to have links like http://dconf.org/talks/2013/* or maybe you're giving up on the next conferences? :)
May 10 2013
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/10/13 7:37 PM, "Mariusz `shd` Gliwiński" <alienballance gmail.com>" 
wrote:
 On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE
I've added them to wiki. Will URLs like http://dconf.org/talks/bright.html be active in like 2 or more years? It would be great to have links like http://dconf.org/talks/2013/* or maybe you're giving up on the next conferences? :)
Great idea. Stay tuned. Andrei
May 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
This can be a hard work, but it's possible to add subtitles on the videos? (Or at least on the next ones). PS: There is nothing wrong with the speech, it's just for convenience and more comprehension for non-english listeners.
May 11 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/11/13 8:41 AM, MattCoder wrote:
 On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
This can be a hard work, but it's possible to add subtitles on the videos? (Or at least on the next ones). PS: There is nothing wrong with the speech, it's just for convenience and more comprehension for non-english listeners.
There are speech-recognized subtitles available for English. There are ways to add subtitles for arbitrary languages but I'm not an expert. Of course the hardest part is defining them with the appropriate timings. Andrei
May 11 2013
parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 11 May 2013 at 13:29:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 There are speech-recognized subtitles available for English.
Yes I know about those automatic translation tools, but they seem not work properly, (principally with Programming talks). In fact in some cases they can confuse more than help. Well, but that's ok!
May 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "dnewbie" <run3 myopera.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Very good presentation. Thank you Ali.
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
I just finished watching. Very, very good presentation. A lot of interesting stuff in here. Also those "here comes the correct answer" were really funny, made me laugh in real ;) Thank you very much Ali for doing this presentation. Those 50 minutes were totally worth it. Best regards
May 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 ...
After some more thinking on topic I get the feeling that this is yet another case when having defined and working "scope" for function parameters would have been extremely useful. Lets imagine some string processing function I want to use: int foo(string); That is like Phobos string processing functions are defined, they take immutable(char)[], not const(char)[]. That is good in a sense that guarantees that function thread safety, but becomes an issue when you want to use that function with a mutable char buffer (some typical network packet manipulation, for example). Presentation recommends to use assumeUnique in such cases as you can be sure that mutable entity only exists in calling scope and is practically immutable for the duration of function call. However, this is potentially dangerous, because foo may save reference of some kind to its immutable argument in global state and then your program is in undefined behavior. It is OK with Phobos string processing functions because common sense and open sources guarantee that no such stuff happens, but in general this sounds like a type system hole. scope may have solved it.
May 15 2013
parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 09:42:06 Dicebot wrote:
 On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 ...
You probably should actually quote part of the message so that it's easier to figure out exactly which message you're replying to it.
 Presentation recommends to use assumeUnique in such cases as you
 can be sure that mutable entity only exists in calling scope and
 is practically immutable for the duration of function call.
 However, this is potentially dangerous, because foo may save
 reference of some kind to its immutable argument in global state
 and then your program is in undefined behavior. It is OK with
 Phobos string processing functions because common sense and open
 sources guarantee that no such stuff happens, but in general this
 sounds like a type system hole.
assumeUnique really should only be used when you construct something that you can't construct as immutable but want as immutable. Using it to simply pass to a function is a _bad_ idea in the general case. You can get away with it if you know exactly what the function does and code accordingly, but all it takes is the code being changed, and you could get some nasty bugs (especially if you were casting away immutable on the return value with the assemption that it was a slice of the original, and that assumption didn't hold true in the long term). But really, what it comes down to is that in general, if functions need immutable(char)[] or are going to be copying the string to immutable, they should take string explicitly, but otherwise, they should probably be accepting const or inout or be templated. Most string functions in Phobos are templated. What's less clear is what to do when a function accepts strings but isn't really operating on them (e.g stuff in std.file or std.net.curl), as they may need immutable(char)[]. In that case, it depends on what's being done with the string. For better or worse though, at this point, I think that it's most common to just accept string for those cases. It's not something that always has a clearcut answer though. - Jonathan M Davis
May 15 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 at 17:32:14 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 You probably should actually quote part of the message so that 
 it's easier to
 figure out exactly which message you're replying to it.
It is hard to quote the video :) I was referring to the part starting somewhere here: http://youtu.be/mPr2UspS0fE?t=39m35s I know that almost all Phobos stuff is either isSomeString+template one or const(char)[] one, but I was curious how this works in context of Ali's presentation. Negative side of const(char)[] vs immutable(char)[] is that function on its own no longer guarantees thread safety, it relies on the behavior of the caller, which is not that good from the point of view of the type system.
May 16 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Wed, 15 May 2013 18:32:03 +0100, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>  
wrote:
 What's less clear is what to do when a function accepts strings but  
 isn't really operating on them (e.g stuff in std.file or std.net.curl),  
 as they may need immutable(char)[]. In that case, it depends on what's  
 being done with the string. For better or worse though, at this point, I  
 think that it's most common to just accept string for those cases. It's  
 not something that always has a clearcut answer though.
I agree with the first bit, but I think we can make a clear-cut decision on this last.. To me it comes down to a Q of responsibility. Should a function/method (like those in std.file) require that the argument will not change for the lifetime of the function/method call, or is it reasonable for the function/method to assume the caller will ensure that. Taking by immutable(char) will guarantee it will not change (ignoring blunt forced cast) whereas const(char) will not, but there is an implicit assumption that it wont change and the caller should guarantee that. So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes without errors caused by mutable shared data? I think it's the callers responsibility and think that const(char) is the better choice in cases like this, my reasoning as follows.. 1. Callers should already be protecting shared mutable state before using it, this is a common and well understood pattern which cannot be avoided even if we use immutable(char) arguments (caller still needs to ensure shared state is not mutated while they make the immutable copy to pass). 2. In most cases, in most code shared data is less common, especially for calls to functions/methods like those mentioned here. So, we chose the option which is nicer for the common case, and const(char) is it. 3. const(char) does not require duplication of arguments by caller or callee so is more efficient, one of D's primary goals and a good baseline to build upon. So, I think in cases where the function/method doesn't need to retain the argument for longer than the lifetime of the call it should accept const(char), otherwise as you mentioned earlier it's better to simply require the caller provide the immutable(char) you require. This decision has a nice side-effect of implicitly documenting the lifetime/usage of arguments, const(char) means call lifetime, immutable(char) means longer, possibly indefinitely (until termination). Thoughts? R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 16 2013
next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:13:28 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 ...
I agree that this is a caller responsibility. What leaves me in doubts is how this responsibility is enforced though. With const nothing in type system prevents caller to violate that "contract" and mutate data during function call. Because, well, const does not guarantee that data is not mutated and thus it is a valid action. Contrary, immutable is absolutely strict requirement from a function that caller must take care of passed argument during the function call or fall into undefined behavior. Explicit usage of "assumeUnique" by caller is clear sign for a type system "yes, I know what I am doing, I am responsible". And no accidents possible. However, another issue arises then (my first comment), one I guessed "scope" may help with.
May 16 2013
parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 16 May 2013 11:25:48 +0100, Dicebot <m.strashun gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:13:28 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 ...
I agree that this is a caller responsibility. What leaves me in doubts is how this responsibility is enforced though. With const nothing in type system prevents caller to violate that "contract" and mutate data during function call. Because, well, const does not guarantee that data is not mutated and thus it is a valid action.
True, it's not enforced. But, that's because the responsibility lies with the caller, and I think this is a reasonable position to take in these cases (std.file methods which use but do not retain the argument post-call)
 Contrary, immutable is absolutely strict requirement from a function  
 that caller must take care of passed argument during the function call  
 or fall into undefined behavior. Explicit usage of "assumeUnique" by  
 caller is clear sign for a type system "yes, I know what I am doing, I  
 am responsible". And no accidents possible.
Sure, but it's more verbose, and therefore annoying for the general case (where the data is not shared). And.. The issue here is not common (because shared data is not common) /and/ where shared data is used it should already be protected (because that's the existing pattern). So that leaves us a very small number of cases which are "broken" and the solution to all of them is to protect the shared data(*) /not/ to call assumeUnique. The cases where assumeUnique could be used, so could const(char). Basically I think the assumeUnique idea is only useful where const(char) is useful and const(char) is far nicer. (*) you cannot even just call idup, because what if the data is in the process of mutating when you do? You have to protect the shared data with a mutex or similar. Regan -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 16 2013
parent reply "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:41:51 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 True, it's not enforced.  But, that's because the 
 responsibility lies with the caller, and I think this is a 
 reasonable position to take in these cases (std.file methods 
 which use but do not retain the argument post-call)
You see, if it is not enforced, than no one has any real responsibility. Multi-threading based on convention has been used quite a lot in C/C++ according to my experience it sucks. D developers has done a lot of work in pursuing type system that is aware of multi-threading and can make certain enforcements / provide guarantees. It makes no sense to stop in the midway. One of D slogans I remember was "Safe by default, efficient when needed". This is exactly one of such cases. Any type contract should be stated explicitly. Everywhere.
May 16 2013
parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 16 May 2013 12:06:18 +0100, Dicebot <m.strashun gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:41:51 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
 True, it's not enforced.  But, that's because the responsibility lies  
 with the caller, and I think this is a reasonable position to take in  
 these cases (std.file methods which use but do not retain the argument  
 post-call)
You see, if it is not enforced, than no one has any real responsibility. Multi-threading based on convention has been used quite a lot in C/C++ according to my experience it sucks. D developers has done a lot of work in pursuing type system that is aware of multi-threading and can make certain enforcements / provide guarantees. It makes no sense to stop in the midway.
You're missing my main point. The number of actually "broken" cases are small and the solution is always always always to protect the shared data. assumeUnique cannot help in these cases, so the caller ends up calling idup. The caller cannot safely call idup unless the shared data is protected. So, all roads lead to - protect the shared data. Given that, const(char) is 100% perfectly safe.
 One of D slogans I remember was "Safe by default, efficient when  
 needed". This is exactly one of such cases. Any type contract should be  
 stated explicitly. Everywhere.
As shown above, just using immutable(char) does not ensure it is safe. The caller could use assumeUnique mistakenly, or call idup without protecting the shared state, both are subtle bugs and the only solution is - protect the shared data. Any impression of complete safety from immutable(char) is therefore false. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 16 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote:
 So, I think in cases where the function/method doesn't need to retain the
 argument for longer than the lifetime of the call it should accept
 const(char), otherwise as you mentioned earlier it's better to simply
 require the caller provide the immutable(char) you require.
Well, as I said, the decision depends on what you're doing with the string. If you're just operating on it and not storing it or duping it, then const(char)[] or inout(char)[] makes the most sense, whereas if you're storing it or duping it, odds are that immutable(char)[] makes the most sense. - Jonathan M Davis
May 16 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote:
 So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes
 without errors caused by mutable shared data?
I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition. Whether you use const or immutable really has no impact on thread safety - not from the perspective of the function being called anyway. The only way that you can end up having to worry about thread-safety in such functions is if the caller casts away shared on a variable and then passes it to the function. And by definition, at that point it's the responsibility of the one doing the cast to make sure that they don't break the type system (since they've circumvented the type system by casting away shared). immutable avoids even that issue, because it's implicitly shared but can be treated by code as being thread- local (since it won't change), but the function accepting the string doesn't care. Worrying about that is completely up to the code that cast away shared. Without shared, the one area where the function risks the data changing when it was passed as const is when that function has another, mutable handle to the same data, and the data is mutated via that handle. If the function is never mutated the same type as the const parameter (either directly or indirectly), then there's no chance that the const parameter will change. So, while using immutable reduces the odds of threading issues, I think that it's quite clear that the function itself doesn't have to worry about that. And the type system won't even _let_ it worry about it, because the type system assumes that const without shared is thread-local, and without passing the appropriate mutex to the function, the function wouldn't be able to protect itself from mutation from another thread anyway (in the case where the const parameter was shared underneath the hood with shared cast away). - Jonathan M Davis
May 16 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <m.strashun gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 19:52:51 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote:
 So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method 
 call executes
 without errors caused by mutable shared data?
I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition. Whether you use const or immutable really has no impact on thread safety - not from the perspective of the function being called anyway. The only way that you can end up having to worry about thread-safety in such functions is if the caller casts away shared on a variable and then passes it to the function.
Very good point. "shared" has been paid minimal attention lately and I keep forgetting it actually can be used :)
May 17 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 16 May 2013 20:52:35 +0100, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>  
wrote:

 On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote:
 So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call  
 executes without errors caused by mutable shared data?
I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition.
Good point. Somehow I totally missed that. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 17 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Robert Jacques" <rjacque2 live.johnshopkins.edu> writes:
On Fri, 10 May 2013 05:08:09 -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Enjoy!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE

 Andrei
Thanks. I noticed a subtle error in the response to the question on logical const (at 32:11). Specifically, overloading the function on immutable doesn't allow you to 'know' that the object you are passed is const or not, as prior to the invocation of the function (and thus overload determination) an immutable object could be bound to a const reference. As an alternative, IIRC, the RTTI of a class can be introspected inside the function to determine mutable/immutable at runtime.
May 21 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 05/21/2013 04:58 PM, Robert Jacques wrote:

 the response to the question on logical const (at 32:11).
I think 31:22 is more precise. Ali
May 21 2013