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digitalmars.D.announce - Article: New D language pumps up programmer productivity Options

reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

Digg: 
http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity
Jan 18 2008
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
 
 Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/
 
 Digg: 
 http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_pro
rammer_productivity 
 

Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature. Those dubious arguments should be removed. A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation. --bb
Jan 18 2008
parent reply Jascha Wetzel <firstname mainia.de> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

 Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

 Digg: 
 http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_pro
rammer_productivity 

Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature. Those dubious arguments should be removed. A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.

i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.
Jan 18 2008
parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Jascha Wetzel wrote:
 Bill Baxter wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

 Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

 Digg: 
 http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_pro
rammer_productivity 

Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature. Those dubious arguments should be removed. A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.

i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.

That's a fine argument too. But just saying "it's 4000 lines of code therefore it must be buggy" is weak, considering the amount of testing std::string and std::vector get and the amount of resources poured into providing STL implementations. I'd be much more likely to believe 100 lines of D compiler source code is buggy than 4000 lines of a mainstream STL, simply because the STL has had *orders of magnitude* more use than DMD. --bb
Jan 18 2008
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:
 Jascha Wetzel wrote:
 Bill Baxter wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

 Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

 Digg:
 http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity

Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature. Those dubious arguments should be removed. A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.

i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.

That's a fine argument too. But just saying "it's 4000 lines of code therefore it must be buggy" is weak, considering the amount of testing std::string and std::vector get and the amount of resources poured into providing STL implementations. I'd be much more likely to believe 100 lines of D compiler source code is buggy than 4000 lines of a mainstream STL, simply because the STL has had *orders of magnitude* more use than DMD.

std::string and std::vector aren't terribly complex to implement either. In my experience, the only real sticking point in implementing STL containers is having to use STL allocators, which makes the code a bit more complex/weird than it would be otherwise. But this is really only an issue once, since the same technique applies to all containers. That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental. The entire D runtime occupies around 70k. Sean
Jan 19 2008
parent reply Jascha Wetzel <firstname mainia.de> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:
 That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental.  The
 entire D runtime occupies around 70k.

i was exaggerating, it's only 468k ;) -----bloat.cc------ #include <string> #include <vector> int main() { } ------------------- g++ -E bloat.cc -o bloat_pre.cc ls -l -rw-r--r-- 1 jascha jascha 52 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat.cc -rw-r--r-- 1 jascha jascha 479498 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat_pre.cc
Jan 19 2008
parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r=F4me_M=2E_Berger=22?= <jeberger free.fr> writes:
Jascha Wetzel wrote:
 Sean Kelly wrote:
 That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental.  The
 entire D runtime occupies around 70k.

i was exaggerating, it's only 468k ;) -----bloat.cc------ #include <string> #include <vector> int main() { } ------------------- g++ -E bloat.cc -o bloat_pre.cc ls -l -rw-r--r-- 1 jascha jascha 52 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat.cc -rw-r--r-- 1 jascha jascha 479498 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat_pre.cc

And using uSTL? http://ustl.sourceforge.net/ Jerome -- +------------------------- Jerome M. BERGER ---------------------+ | mailto:jeberger free.fr | ICQ: 238062172 | | http://jeberger.free.fr/ | Jabber: jeberger jabber.fr | +---------------------------------+------------------------------+
Jan 19 2008
prev sibling parent "Jb" <jb nowhere.com> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:fmpqf1$1skg$1 digitalmars.com...
 Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

 Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

Dunno whether I am imagining this but the discusion comments regarding D seem to be more positive these days. There also seems to be more people who have actualy tried D replying.
Jan 18 2008