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digitalmars.D - Website message overhaul, pass 2

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread, 
then made one more pass:

http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news, 
links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback 
please focus on the core message.

There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different, 
text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a 
different page).

There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that 
randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


Thanks,

Andrei
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, November 20, 2011 02:40:09 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:
 
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/
 
 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.
 
 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).
 
 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.

Overall. It looks good. It's also more compact, which is probably a good thing. One thing that bothered me right off the bat though is "modeling power" in that my first reaction is "what kind of modeling power?" It feels to me like it needs an adjective in front of it. It's probably fine though - particularly since I can't think of what to put in front of it (high?). The thought behind it is solid, but I guess that the phrase is just a bit odd to me. Nitpick: "giving the best of the static and dynamic worlds" would be slightly better IMHO as "giving the best of both the static and the dynamic worlds." Nitpick: The + on the Example link is a nice improvement, but ideally it would change to a - when the example is visible. That might be more complicated than it's worth though. I don't know (since I'm not a web programmer). Nitpick: "Best paradigm is to not impose..." sounds odd. Do you mean "The best paradigm..." or something else? Maybe it should be something more like "It is best to not impose one programming paradigm at the expense of others." Suggestion: Make RAII in the text a link to RAII on wikipedia. Also, scope should probably be turned into a link to scope statements in the documenation. I really like the idea of having the prominent example rotate randomly from a list somewhere, but of course, that means that we need to come up with such a list, and coming up with good, concise examples like that generally seems to be difficult. If we can come up with even just a few though, it would still be a nice touch over having one, static example. I find it interesting that whatever you did with the news section this time around actually shows up properly in Konqueror, whereas before it didn't (Konqueror is generally quite standards compliant, but that doesn't always translate to showing stuff correctly - especially with advanced web 2.0 kind of stuff). Overall, it looks good to me. But from the previous comments, I think that others are far pickier than I am about the content (e.g. multi-paradigm was fine with me). - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 20 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 3:10 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Overall. It looks good. It's also more compact, which is probably a good
 thing. One thing that bothered me right off the bat though is "modeling power"
 in that my first reaction is "what kind of modeling power?" It feels to me like
 it needs an adjective in front of it. It's probably fine though - particularly
 since I can't think of what to put in front of it (high?). The thought behind
 it is solid, but I guess that the phrase is just a bit odd to me.

Keeping this in mind.
 Nitpick: "giving the best of the static and dynamic worlds" would be slightly
 better IMHO as "giving the best of both the static and the dynamic worlds."

Done.
 Nitpick: The + on the Example link is a nice improvement, but ideally it would
 change to a - when the example is visible. That might be more complicated than
 it's worth though. I don't know (since I'm not a web programmer).

Yes, that's part of the plan. Note that the "+" is a nice small Unicode "+", and probably the "-" will be the small Unicode "-".
 Nitpick: "Best paradigm is to not impose..." sounds odd. Do you mean "The best
 paradigm..." or something else? Maybe it should be something more like "It is
 best to not impose one programming paradigm at the expense of others."

I wanted to put there a strong sentence a la "best organization is disorganization". I thought "best paradigm is no paradigm" but that would be too extreme.
 Suggestion: Make RAII in the text a link to RAII on wikipedia. Also, scope
 should probably be turned into a link to scope statements in the documenation.

Done.
 I really like the idea of having the prominent example rotate randomly from a
 list somewhere, but of course, that means that we need to come up with such a
 list, and coming up with good, concise examples like that generally seems to
 be difficult. If we can come up with even just a few though, it would still be
a
 nice touch over having one, static example.

I'm sure we will. I wonder how I can superimpose on the code frame a small text in the bottom right saying "[your code here]" linked to a submission form. That way we advertise the contest right where the prize is!
 I find it interesting that whatever you did with the news section this time
 around actually shows up properly in Konqueror, whereas before it didn't
 (Konqueror is generally quite standards compliant, but that doesn't always
 translate to showing stuff correctly - especially with advanced web 2.0 kind of
 stuff).

I issued a window.stop() after the twitter code.
 Overall, it looks good to me. But from the previous comments, I think that
 others are far pickier than I am about the content (e.g. multi-paradigm was
 fine with me).

Thanks for your input! Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Looks great.

While I am not native English speaker, would it not be better
to exachange the position of *naturally* and *compiles* on the following
sentence?

From:

"D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

To:

"D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

--
Paulo

Am 20.11.2011 09:40, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent reply Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Sun 20 Nov 2011 05:09:28 AM CST, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Looks great.

 While I am not native English speaker, would it not be better
 to exachange the position of *naturally* and *compiles* on the following
 sentence?

 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

 -- 
 Paulo

 Am 20.11.2011 09:40, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei


Nice catch. It does indeed sound better your way.
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 9:50 AM, Derek wrote:
 On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:40:34 +1100, Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 On Sun 20 Nov 2011 05:09:28 AM CST, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Looks great.

 While I am not native English speaker, would it not be better
 to exachange the position of *naturally* and *compiles* on the following
 sentence?

 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

Nice catch. It does indeed sound better your way.

I think "naturally" can be removed altogether. "D compiles to efficient machine code."

"Naturally" emphasizes that we're not talking about the "reasonably advanced compiler" myth. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 12:26 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Clicking Example doesn't do anything. And yes I have javascript on. :)

I only noticed that now... will look into it. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Derek <ddparnell bigpond.com> writes:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:40:34 +1100, Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 On Sun 20 Nov 2011 05:09:28 AM CST, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Looks great.

 While I am not native English speaker, would it not be better
 to exachange the position of *naturally* and *compiles* on the following
 sentence?

 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

Nice catch. It does indeed sound better your way.

I think "naturally" can be removed altogether. "D compiles to efficient machine code." -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
Clicking Example doesn't do anything. And yes I have javascript on. :)
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 5:09 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Looks great.

 While I am not native English speaker, would it not be better
 to exachange the position of *naturally* and *compiles* on the following
 sentence?

 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

Done. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Derek <ddparnell bigpond.com> writes:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:06:00 +1100, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 I think "naturally" can be removed altogether.

 "D compiles to efficient machine code."

"Naturally" emphasizes that we're not talking about the "reasonably advanced compiler" myth.

Ok, I see where you are going with that now; it wasn't obvious to me. So rephrasing it and using more words, - the nature of D makes it simple to generate efficient machine code. -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 5:22 PM, Danni Coy wrote:
     From:

     "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

     To:

     "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."


 I think that naturally applies to D rather than compiles
 so perhaps
 "Naturally D compiles to efficient native code."

That Yoda sounds said like. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 5:31 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 5:22 PM, Danni Coy wrote:
 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."


 I think that naturally applies to D rather than compiles
 so perhaps
 "Naturally D compiles to efficient native code."

That Yoda sounds said like. Andrei

On second thought, this seems glib, apologies. What I really meant to say is that "natural" actually goes to the process of compilation, not D itself. You can see that by replacing e.g. "natural" with "easy": D compiles easily to efficient native code. That's what I meant when writing the sentence, and again it's there to avoid the fallacy that you'd need a magically advanced compiler to do that. In fact I've considered adding one more sentence there, but I can't come up with anything short and good. Something like: "D builds structure on top of C's object model bedrock, so D compiles naturally to efficient native code." That is long-ish and, worse, leads to all sorts of mistaken interpretations. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 20/11/2011 08:40, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

This is a huge improvement! Ignoring the broken +Example links: - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there is... Not good at all. - Rotating the example is a brilliant idea, particularly if powered by a continuous contest. - This is less about the message, but how about an "explain this" link in the corner of examples with little hints for C/C++/Java programmers, so when clicked additional comments appear in the code or bubbles appear above on hover or something, they would include small bits of text like "auto can be used in place of a type to infer the type from what is being assigned"... But better worded of course. - Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the title being so long. I think "The D Programming Language" on its own is fine. The rest of it may still have a place, but it needs to be elsewhere in my opinion (even if it just moves to the line below). - Your summary sentence at the start reads "It pragmatically combines efficiency, control, and modeling power, with safety and programmer productivity." You then go on to talk about convinience, power and efficiency... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_sentence The sentence needs to be changed to reflect what you go on to detail below - currently you're making statements without backing them up (note that you do back up most of it, not all of it though, and the subheadings don't make it obvious where you can find out more about the claims). - convinience -> convenience - I can't really fault the bullet points, they're a huge improvement. - I have a reasonably large screen and can't see the news section without scrolling. To me this means there is no news ;) I'm starting to nit-pick, it must be getting better. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent reply Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 1:09 PM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a
 couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D
 better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code
 needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there
 is... Not good at all.

It's hard to come up with something that is short, easily-understandable and demonstrates D's (numerous) powerful features. How about this one: // Match email addresses on each line of standard input // using a compile-time generated regular expression engine. import std.stdio, std.regex; void main() { string email = r"\b[A-Z0-9._%+-]+ [A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}\b"; foreach (line; stdin.byLine()) { foreach (m; match(line, regex(email, "i"))) { writefln("%s[%s]%s", m.pre, m.hit, m.post); } } } Demonstrates: - Syntax - Imports - Raw string literals - Foreach with type deduction - CTFE with regex - "Batteries included" library (std.byLine(), regex, match, writefln) - General succinctness of D code
 - Rotating the example is a brilliant idea, particularly if powered by a
 continuous contest.
 - This is less about the message, but how about an "explain this" link
 in the corner of examples with little hints for C/C++/Java programmers,
 so when clicked additional comments appear in the code or bubbles appear
 above on hover or something, they would include small bits of text like
 "auto can be used in place of a type to infer the type from what is
 being assigned"... But better worded of course.
 - Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the title being so long. I think
 "The D Programming Language" on its own is fine. The rest of it may
 still have a place, but it needs to be elsewhere in my opinion (even if
 it just moves to the line below).
 - Your summary sentence at the start reads "It pragmatically combines
 efficiency, control, and modeling power, with safety and programmer
 productivity." You then go on to talk about convinience, power and
 efficiency... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_sentence The sentence
 needs to be changed to reflect what you go on to detail below -
 currently you're making statements without backing them up (note that
 you do back up most of it, not all of it though, and the subheadings
 don't make it obvious where you can find out more about the claims).
 - convinience -> convenience
 - I can't really fault the bullet points, they're a huge improvement.
 - I have a reasonably large screen and can't see the news section
 without scrolling. To me this means there is no news ;)

 I'm starting to nit-pick, it must be getting better.

+1 to everything
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 2:17 PM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 Demonstrates:
 - Syntax
 - Imports
 - Raw string literals
 - Foreach with type deduction
 - CTFE with regex
 - "Batteries included" library (std.byLine(), regex, match, writefln)
 - General succinctness of D code

Ignore the CTFE with regex, it doesn't do any CTFE. Maybe I was thinking of the new one?
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 8:17 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 How about this one:

 // Match email addresses on each line of standard input
 // using a compile-time generated regular expression engine.
 import std.stdio, std.regex;

 void main() {
 string email = r"\b[A-Z0-9._%+-]+ [A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}\b";

 foreach (line; stdin.byLine()) {
 foreach (m; match(line, regex(email, "i"))) {
 writefln("%s[%s]%s", m.pre, m.hit, m.post);
 }
 }
 }

 Demonstrates:
 - Syntax
 - Imports
 - Raw string literals
 - Foreach with type deduction
 - CTFE with regex
 - "Batteries included" library (std.byLine(), regex, match, writefln)
 - General succinctness of D code

Great. Save that for the contest. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Dmitry Olshansky <dmitry.olsh gmail.com> writes:
On 20.11.2011 18:17, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 1:09 PM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a
 couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D
 better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code
 needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there
 is... Not good at all.

It's hard to come up with something that is short, easily-understandable and demonstrates D's (numerous) powerful features. How about this one: // Match email addresses on each line of standard input // using a compile-time generated regular expression engine. import std.stdio, std.regex; void main() { string email = r"\b[A-Z0-9._%+-]+ [A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}\b";

Well, soon you'd get CTFE and compile-time goodies... Then just swap it with: auto email = ctRegex!(r"\b[A-Z0-9._%+-]+ [A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}\b","i"); just keep in mind that it's fairly new and experimental stuff.
 foreach (line; stdin.byLine()) {
 foreach (m; match(line, email))) {
 writefln("%s[%s]%s", m.pre, m.hit, m.post);
 }
 }
 }

 Demonstrates:
 - Syntax
 - Imports
 - Raw string literals
 - Foreach with type deduction
 - CTFE with regex
 - "Batteries included" library (std.byLine(), regex, match, writefln)
 - General succinctness of D code

 - Rotating the example is a brilliant idea, particularly if powered by a
 continuous contest.
 - This is less about the message, but how about an "explain this" link
 in the corner of examples with little hints for C/C++/Java programmers,
 so when clicked additional comments appear in the code or bubbles appear
 above on hover or something, they would include small bits of text like
 "auto can be used in place of a type to infer the type from what is
 being assigned"... But better worded of course.
 - Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the title being so long. I think
 "The D Programming Language" on its own is fine. The rest of it may
 still have a place, but it needs to be elsewhere in my opinion (even if
 it just moves to the line below).
 - Your summary sentence at the start reads "It pragmatically combines
 efficiency, control, and modeling power, with safety and programmer
 productivity." You then go on to talk about convinience, power and
 efficiency... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_sentence The sentence
 needs to be changed to reflect what you go on to detail below -
 currently you're making statements without backing them up (note that
 you do back up most of it, not all of it though, and the subheadings
 don't make it obvious where you can find out more about the claims).
 - convinience -> convenience
 - I can't really fault the bullet points, they're a huge improvement.
 - I have a reasonably large screen and can't see the news section
 without scrolling. To me this means there is no news ;)

 I'm starting to nit-pick, it must be getting better.

+1 to everything

Back to topic, I'm also pleased with the recent improvements. -- Dmitry Olshansky
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 7:09 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a
 couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D
 better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code
 needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there
 is... Not good at all.

I'd be curious how with only a couple of lines more you address in C lines of arbitrary length and proper error handling. Same goes about C++ (in addition to the speed issue) - code that does the right thing and is not very slow is quite subtle and I doubt two out of five C++ programmers know how to write it.
 - Rotating the example is a brilliant idea, particularly if powered by a
 continuous contest.

Yah, looking forward to that. It's going to be interesting.
 - This is less about the message, but how about an "explain this" link
 in the corner of examples with little hints for C/C++/Java programmers,
 so when clicked additional comments appear in the code or bubbles appear
 above on hover or something, they would include small bits of text like
 "auto can be used in place of a type to infer the type from what is
 being assigned"... But better worded of course.

Good idea.
 - Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the title being so long. I think
 "The D Programming Language" on its own is fine. The rest of it may
 still have a place, but it needs to be elsewhere in my opinion (even if
 it just moves to the line below).

I like that the main message is small enough to allow formatting in large font.
 - Your summary sentence at the start reads "It pragmatically combines
 efficiency, control, and modeling power, with safety and programmer
 productivity." You then go on to talk about convinience, power and
 efficiency... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_sentence The sentence
 needs to be changed to reflect what you go on to detail below -
 currently you're making statements without backing them up (note that
 you do back up most of it, not all of it though, and the subheadings
 don't make it obvious where you can find out more about the claims).

Agreed. I'll think of fixing that.
 - convinience -> convenience

Where?
 - I can't really fault the bullet points, they're a huge improvement.
 - I have a reasonably large screen and can't see the news section
 without scrolling. To me this means there is no news ;)

I'm considering moving the news on the right-hand side.
 I'm starting to nit-pick, it must be getting better.

Thanks for the feedback! Andrei
Nov 20 2011
parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 20/11/2011 19:55, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 7:09 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a
 couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D
 better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code
 needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there
 is... Not good at all.

I'd be curious how with only a couple of lines more you address in C lines of arbitrary length and proper error handling. Same goes about C++ (in addition to the speed issue) - code that does the right thing and is not very slow is quite subtle and I doubt two out of five C++ programmers know how to write it.

I don't have time to write up an example, however a C/C++ programmer reading that code would have no idea any error handling was happening.
 I like that the main message is small enough to allow formatting in
 large font.

I personally don't find it very readable with it all being on one line, I feel breaking it into two looks far nicer (I did try).
 - convinience -> convenience

Where?

No idea! :D
 - I can't really fault the bullet points, they're a huge improvement.
 - I have a reasonably large screen and can't see the news section
 without scrolling. To me this means there is no news ;)

I'm considering moving the news on the right-hand side.

I think it would be quite good to put it in the already existent sidebar - as I've already mentioned, I don't see the sidebar unless I really look for it (it looks too much like it's part of the background)... With a bit of tweaking I think you could make it more noticeable (without being intrusive) and have the twitter feed in there (thus saving horizontal space for those with small screens). -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Nov 20 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 5:43 PM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 I think it would be quite good to put it in the already existent sidebar
 - as I've already mentioned, I don't see the sidebar unless I really
 look for it (it looks too much like it's part of the background)... With
 a bit of tweaking I think you could make it more noticeable (without
 being intrusive) and have the twitter feed in there (thus saving
 horizontal space for those with small screens).

Tried that, too narrow. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Jerry <jlquinn optonline.net> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:

 On 11/20/11 7:09 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 - The code sample at the top is terrible, the equivalent C is only a
 couple of lines longer and it doesn't show off any of what makes D
 better! Admittedly you're limited in what you can do here as the code
 needs to be fairly understandable by non-D programmers, but what's there
 is... Not good at all.

I'd be curious how with only a couple of lines more you address in C lines of arbitrary length and proper error handling. Same goes about C++ (in addition to the speed issue) - code that does the right thing and is not very slow is quite subtle and I doubt two out of five C++ programmers know how to write it.

I had one minor thought on the average line length code example. If you eliminate the initialization of lines and sumLength, it would demonstrate default initialization.
 - Rotating the example is a brilliant idea, particularly if powered by a
 continuous contest.

Yah, looking forward to that. It's going to be interesting.
 - This is less about the message, but how about an "explain this" link
 in the corner of examples with little hints for C/C++/Java programmers,
 so when clicked additional comments appear in the code or bubbles appear
 above on hover or something, they would include small bits of text like
 "auto can be used in place of a type to infer the type from what is
 being assigned"... But better worded of course.

Good idea.

What do you think about offering equivalent code from other languages? Not necessarily all language for any given example, but if there are enough equivalents from enough other languages, it might more directly highlight the strengths of D for newbies with those backgrounds. So in this case a perl comparison wouldn't be illuminating but a C++ one would. If all the various paradigms that D supports get illustrated that way it might give a broader feeling for how D will make things easier on many fronts. Jerry
Nov 25 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 8:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

Much better :-) A few comments: Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means. I think the point about the shebang line is unnecessary. It's a certainly a nice feature, but doesn't feel important enough to me to warrant being on the front-page trying to sell the language. Perhaps something about version/debug blocks would be more appropriate as they're something that everyone uses. "Without preventing virtual machine approaches, D naturally compiles to efficient native code." I would add onto the end of that "rivaling and often bettering the runtime performance of raw C and C++ code." That's what people really want to hear, and it doesn't hurt to be explicit about it. With this point: "The safe, trusted, and system modular attributes allow the programmer to best decide the safety/efficiency tradeoffs of a particular application, and have the compiler check for consistency." I'm not sure the reader can get much from that without knowing what those attributes mean.
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, November 20, 2011 13:47:31 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 8:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:
 
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

Much better :-) A few comments: Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means.

Making it a link to wikipedia should be plenty. The C++ will know what RAII is, and anyone who's learning D should learn it. The combination of an example, the brief explanation that's there, and a link to Wikipedia should be plenty for people to be able to figure out what they need to know. And it _is_ a very important feature for those who know what it means. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 20 2011
parent reply Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 1:46 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 13:47:31 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 8:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

Much better :-) A few comments: Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means.

Making it a link to wikipedia should be plenty. The C++ will know what RAII is, and anyone who's learning D should learn it. The combination of an example, the brief explanation that's there, and a link to Wikipedia should be plenty for people to be able to figure out what they need to know. And it _is_ a very important feature for those who know what it means.

I just think it's a terrible acronym and that we shouldn't be promoting its use. What part of "resource acquisition is initialization" tells me that its main purpose is deterministic, scoped resource management? They should learn the concept but not the acronym ;-)
Nov 20 2011
parent reply Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 2:20 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 14:22:16 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 1:46 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 13:47:31 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 8:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

Much better :-) A few comments: Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means.

Making it a link to wikipedia should be plenty. The C++ will know what RAII is, and anyone who's learning D should learn it. The combination of an example, the brief explanation that's there, and a link to Wikipedia should be plenty for people to be able to figure out what they need to know. And it _is_ a very important feature for those who know what it means.

I just think it's a terrible acronym and that we shouldn't be promoting its use. What part of "resource acquisition is initialization" tells me that its main purpose is deterministic, scoped resource management? They should learn the concept but not the acronym ;-)

It's well-established at this point. It would _increase_ confusion for many if we tried to avoid the term. - Jonathan M Davis

It's *only* established in the C++ community, and I would even suspect that majority of working C++ programmers don't know what it means (even though they know the concept). The vast majority of programmers (i.e. non-C++ programmers) have no idea what it means, can't tell from the name, and when they learn it they'll have no why it was called that.
Nov 20 2011
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
RAII confused me at first because it doesn't really have anything to do with
resource
acquisition or initilaization!

RAII is more about scoped destructors than anything else... the opposite of what
the name implies.


I know what it means now, but I see where Peter Alexander is coming from. It's
not
an intuitive name.
Nov 20 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 8:36 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 RAII confused me at first because it doesn't really have anything to do with
resource
 acquisition or initilaization!

 RAII is more about scoped destructors than anything else... the opposite of
what
 the name implies.


 I know what it means now, but I see where Peter Alexander is coming from. It's
not
 an intuitive name.

Adjusted text. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 7:47 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 A few comments:

 Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it
 means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what
 it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory
 management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that
 to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means.

I think RAII+link is fine. It's an awful acronym, but it has caught on.
 I think the point about the shebang line is unnecessary. It's a
 certainly a nice feature, but doesn't feel important enough to me to
 warrant being on the front-page trying to sell the language. Perhaps
 something about version/debug blocks would be more appropriate as
 they're something that everyone uses.

Good point, will keep in mind.
 "Without preventing virtual machine approaches, D naturally compiles to
 efficient native code." I would add onto the end of that "rivaling and
 often bettering the runtime performance of raw C and C++ code." That's
 what people really want to hear, and it doesn't hurt to be explicit
 about it.

"No mention of other languages." Well I broke that with C-like syntax because that's very informative.
 With this point:

 "The  safe,  trusted, and  system modular attributes allow the
 programmer to best decide the safety/efficiency tradeoffs of a
 particular application, and have the compiler check for consistency."

 I'm not sure the reader can get much from that without knowing what
 those attributes mean.

There's an article link for those interested. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 3:01 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:58:14 -0600, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 11/20/11 7:47 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 I think the point about the shebang line is unnecessary. It's a
 certainly a nice feature, but doesn't feel important enough to me to
 warrant being on the front-page trying to sell the language. Perhaps
 something about version/debug blocks would be more appropriate as
 they're something that everyone uses.

Good point, will keep in mind.

On top of that, #! is only available to the *nix world.

And cygwin. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 20/11/11 7:58 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 "Without preventing virtual machine approaches, D naturally compiles to
 efficient native code." I would add onto the end of that "rivaling and
 often bettering the runtime performance of raw C and C++ code." That's
 what people really want to hear, and it doesn't hurt to be explicit
 about it.

"No mention of other languages." Well I broke that with C-like syntax because that's very informative.

How about being more vague? "rivalling and often bettering the runtime performance of other systems programming languages."
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+d gmail.com> writes:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:58:14 -0600, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 11/20/11 7:47 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 I think the point about the shebang line is unnecessary. It's a
 certainly a nice feature, but doesn't feel important enough to me to
 warrant being on the front-page trying to sell the language. Perhaps
 something about version/debug blocks would be more appropriate as
 they're something that everyone uses.

Good point, will keep in mind.

On top of that, #! is only available to the *nix world.
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, November 20, 2011 14:22:16 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 1:46 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 13:47:31 Peter Alexander wrote:
 On 20/11/11 8:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:
 
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

Much better :-) A few comments: Can we please not use the term RAII? First, only C++ people know what it means, and second, its expansion doesn't tell you what it does or what it is used for. Just say something like "scoped deterministic memory management" or something like that. I'm sure C++ people will link that to RAII, and non-C++ people will have a better idea of what it means.

Making it a link to wikipedia should be plenty. The C++ will know what RAII is, and anyone who's learning D should learn it. The combination of an example, the brief explanation that's there, and a link to Wikipedia should be plenty for people to be able to figure out what they need to know. And it _is_ a very important feature for those who know what it means.

I just think it's a terrible acronym and that we shouldn't be promoting its use. What part of "resource acquisition is initialization" tells me that its main purpose is deterministic, scoped resource management? They should learn the concept but not the acronym ;-)

It's well-established at this point. It would _increase_ confusion for many if we tried to avoid the term. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:40:09 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,  
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I would like to humbly suggest a change in the punctuation of the top heading. From this:
 The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native  
 efficiency.

To this:
 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native  
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization, but the period-overloaded version reads in my head like a lame car commercial. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 20 2011
parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization

Too many capitals! The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native efficiency. The - Start of a sentence D Programming Language - a noun. Modern - comes after a colon. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 7:40 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 Just a heads up, d-p-l.org/download.html results in an infinite
 redirect loop for me.
 digitalmars.com redirects to d-p-l.

 In other words, there is no longer any way to download the dmd
 compiler.

 Also, http://www.d-programming-language.org/1.0/index.html (D1 home on
 the sidebar)  doesn't exist.

 We're looking good with the website though!

We're on that. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 21/11/2011 00:13, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 23:47:42 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization

Too many capitals! The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native efficiency. The - Start of a sentence D Programming Language - a noun. Modern - comes after a colon.

I completly disagree. It's the title. You're _supposed_ to capitalize there. It looks just plain wrong to not capitalize those words. If it were in a sentence, that would be one thing, but titles follow different rules of capitalization. - Jonathan M Davis

It's a title?! Oh yeah, scrap then, capitalise it all. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.

Arranged things such that +Example becomes -Example when expanded. Also, examples are now clickable while the page is still loading. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu:

 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread, 
 then made one more pass:
 
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

On Wikipedia they are asking for some changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_language (We don't want to use this on the front page: import std.stdio, std.string, std.algorithm; void main() { string[][string] signature2words; foreach (char[] line; lines(File("words.txt"))) { auto cline = line.chomp(); string word = cline.idup; cline.toLowerInPlace(); (cast(ubyte[])cline).sort(); signature2words[cline.idup] ~= word; } foreach (words; signature2words) if (words.length > 1) writefln(words.join(" ")); } ------------------------------- I have modified a bit your text, this is not meant to be a final version, but shows a text I like a bit more: The D programming language // Finds and prints word anagrams import std.stdio, std.string, std.algorithm; void main() { dstring[][dstring] signature2words; foreach (dstring line; lines(File("words.txt"))) { auto word = line.chomp(); auto key = word.toLower().dup.sort().release().idup; signature2words[key] ~= word; } foreach (words; signature2words) if (words.length > 1) writefln(words.join(" ")); } D is a statically typed language with C-like syntax. It tries to combine efficiency and control with safety and programmer productivity. Convenience * The simple type inference of D allow writing code with no redundant type specifications, while keeping static typing safety and efficiency. [Example] * The optional garbage collector makes for simple and safe code. D also supports scoped resource management (the RAII idiom) and scope statements for ....... code that is easy to read. [Example] * Array slicing syntax, built-in dynamic arrays and associative arrays, and several other features allow to write handy short script-like programs succinctly and safely. Power * D supports classic polymorphism, value semantics, functional style, generics, generative programming and contract programming. [Example] * D offers an innovative approach to concurrency featuring true immutable data, message passing, no sharing by default, pure functions and controlled mutable sharing across threads. Read more. * D scales to larger projects with unit testing, information hiding, refined modularity, fast compilation and precise interfaces. Read more. Efficiency * D compiles naturally to efficient native code. * D is designed such that most obvious code is fast and safe. On occasion you might need to escape the confines of type safety for ultimate speed and control. For such rare cases D offers native pointers, type casts, access to any C function without any intervening translation, and even inline assembly. So D allows to mix high level code and low level code in the same program. [Example] * The safe, trusted, and system modular attributes allow the programmer to best decide the safety/efficiency tradeoffs of a particular application, and have the compiler check for consistency. Read more. Bye, bearophile
Nov 20 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 4:45 PM, bearophile wrote:
[snip]

Thanks for your feedback! Operated a few changes. I think the example 
introduces too many concepts.


Thanks again,

Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Danni Coy <danni.coy gmail.com> writes:
--14dae9399599b3585204b232d6f4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 From:

 "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."

 To:

 "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."

so perhaps "Naturally D compiles to efficient native code." --14dae9399599b3585204b232d6f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br> <br> From:<br> <br> &quot;D naturally compiles to efficient native code.&quot;<br> <br> To:<br> <br> &quot;D compiles naturally to efficient native code.&quot;<span class=3D"HO= EnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> <br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think that naturally a= pplies to D rather than compiles=A0</div><div>so perhaps=A0</div><div>&quot= ;Naturally D compiles to efficient native code.&quot;=A0</div></div> --14dae9399599b3585204b232d6f4--
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, November 20, 2011 17:31:57 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 5:22 PM, Danni Coy wrote:
     From:
     
     "D naturally compiles to efficient native code."
     
     To:
     
     "D compiles naturally to efficient native code."
 
 I think that naturally applies to D rather than compiles
 so perhaps
 "Naturally D compiles to efficient native code."

That Yoda sounds said like.

Well, if it were "Naturally, D compiles to efficient, native code," then it means something similar to "Obviously, D compiles to efficient, native code." But the naturally that the original phrase uses is a different definition. So, yes, if naturally were to keep the same meaning with this suggested rewrite, it would be Yoda-talk, but most people would probably take it as a different meaning of the word entirely. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--0015175cac2470c91304b233942e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2011/11/20 Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com>

 On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization

Too many capitals! The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native efficiency. The - Start of a sentence D Programming Language - a noun. Modern - comes after a colon.

I agree. If you have each four as its own sentence, it gives them equal emphasis, which is strange. "The D Programming Language" should be the primary statement, followed by a colon, and then an enumeration of those four selling points. Although, I think that listing the selling points like that is silly and that "Welcome to D" would suffice. --0015175cac2470c91304b233942e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/11/20 Robert Clipsham <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt= ;<a href=3D"mailto:robert octarineparrot.com">robert octarineparrot.com</a>= &gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class=3D"im">On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native<br> Efficiency<br> </blockquote> <br> I&#39;m not sure about the capitalization<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Too many capitals!<br> <br> The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native effi= ciency.<br> <br> The - Start of a sentence<br> D Programming Language - a noun.<br> Modern - comes after a colon.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. =A0I= f you have each four as its own sentence, it gives them equal emphasis, whi= ch is strange. &quot;The D Programming Language&quot; should be the primary= statement, followed by a colon, and then an enumeration of those four sell= ing points.</div> <div><br></div><div>Although, I think that listing the selling points like = that is silly and that &quot;Welcome to D&quot; would suffice.</div></div> --0015175cac2470c91304b233942e--
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, November 20, 2011 23:47:42 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization

Too many capitals! The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native efficiency. The - Start of a sentence D Programming Language - a noun. Modern - comes after a colon.

I completly disagree. It's the title. You're _supposed_ to capitalize there. It looks just plain wrong to not capitalize those words. If it were in a sentence, that would be one thing, but titles follow different rules of capitalization. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--0015175933f820c2ba04b233c54f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2011/11/20 Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>

 On Sunday, November 20, 2011 23:47:42 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, Native
 Efficiency

I'm not sure about the capitalization

Too many capitals! The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native efficiency. The - Start of a sentence D Programming Language - a noun. Modern - comes after a colon.

I completly disagree. It's the title. You're _supposed_ to capitalize there. It looks just plain wrong to not capitalize those words. If it were in a sentence, that would be one thing, but titles follow different rules of capitalization. The biggest problem is the title's equal emphasis. There should be a

What makes more sense? Ducks. Tasty. Feathers. Buoyant. or Ducks: Tasty, Feathers, Bouyant. --0015175933f820c2ba04b233c54f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/11/20 Jonathan M Davis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmdavis= Prog gmx.com" target=3D"_blank">jmdavisProg gmx.com</a>&gt;</span><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0= 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div><div>On Sunday, November 20, 2011 23:47:42 Robert Clipsham wrote:<br> &gt; On 20/11/2011 21:49, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Powe= r, Native<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; Efficiency<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; I&#39;m not sure about the capitalization<br> &gt;<br> &gt; Too many capitals!<br> &gt;<br> &gt; The D Programming Language: Modern convenience, modeling power, native= <br> &gt; efficiency.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; The - Start of a sentence<br> &gt; D Programming Language - a noun.<br> &gt; Modern - comes after a colon.<br> <br> </div></div>I completly disagree. It&#39;s the title. You&#39;re _supposed_= to capitalize there.<br> It looks just plain wrong to not capitalize those words. If it were in a<br=

capitalization.<br> <span><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquote><div>The bigge= st problem is the title&#39;s equal emphasis. =A0There should be a colon.</= div><div><br></div><div>What makes more sense?</div><div><br> </div><div>Ducks. Tasty. Feathers. Buoyant.</div><div><br></div><div>or</di= v><div><br></div><div>Ducks: =A0Tasty, Feathers, Bouyant.</div></div> --0015175933f820c2ba04b233c54f--
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
Just a heads up, d-p-l.org/download.html results in an infinite 
redirect loop for me.
digitalmars.com redirects to d-p-l. 

In other words, there is no longer any way to download the dmd 
compiler.

Also, http://www.d-programming-language.org/1.0/index.html (D1 home on 
the sidebar)  doesn't exist.

We're looking good with the website though!
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
LOL, some ISP is gonna have its stack blown!
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right. * Border is thinner * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally * Footer is better integrated * Copyright text is smaller Andrei
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 11/20/2011 9:31 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right. * Border is thinner * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally * Footer is better integrated * Copyright text is smaller Andrei

One thing that's annoyed me for a while about the pages.. the last updated date does not deserve such prominent placement, imho. Second, if the 'comment on this page' link is going to continue to receive similar placement, there really needs to be continuous effort to actually incorporate the comments. Many, if not all, of the sites pages have comments over in the wiki, many of which are bug reports. It's essentially a black hole through which feedback disappears forever. Should that link be turned into a bugzilla link instead, maybe? Later, Brad
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 12:00 AM, Brad Roberts wrote:
 One thing that's annoyed me for a while about the pages.. the last
 updated date does not deserve such prominent placement, imho.

Moved the date to the footer. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent David Gileadi <gileadis NSPMgmail.com> writes:
On 11/20/11 11:00 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
 Second, if the 'comment on this page' link is going to continue to receive
similar placement, there really needs to be
 continuous effort to actually incorporate the comments.  Many, if not all, of
the sites pages have comments over in the
 wiki, many of which are bug reports.  It's essentially a black hole through
which feedback disappears forever.  Should
 that link be turned into a bugzilla link instead, maybe?

I had planned this when I first worked on the site redesign. I did some work on implementing it via Javascript and this could work if there were a service on the dpl.org site that scrapes the HTML from the wiki. Of course the larger question is whether we want user comments to appear on every page. I tend to think that a bugzilla link may be more appropriate, with an appropriate link text change.
Nov 22 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/20/11 11:31 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right. * Border is thinner * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally * Footer is better integrated * Copyright text is smaller Andrei

I got word that not all browsers display the Unicode + and -, so I replaced the text with "See example" and "Hide example". Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Kapps <Kapps NotValidEmail.com> writes:
I think it actually looks quite nice.

Some issues:
I really think it should be Expand/Contract Example instead of +/- 
Example. Having +/- after a period just seems... strange.

Example Convenience[1] uses 'dictionary' as the name of the AA, then 
references it by using 'table'.
Example Convenience[2] uses new Widget. This goes against  property I 
believe, and would probably not work with -property.

I really don't like the "#!/usr/bin/rdmd" at the top. I believe this is 
a unix thing (at the very least, Windows command prompt does not support 
'#!'), and it's worrying seeing something like that when looking at 
basic examples for a cross-platform language. It will either confuse the 
user if they don't know what it is, perhaps making them think it's part 
of the language (as # usually means a preprocessor directive), or make 
them wonder whether things like Windows are treated second-hand when 
it's all they see.


On 20/11/2011 11:31 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right. * Border is thinner * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally * Footer is better integrated * Copyright text is smaller Andrei

Nov 20 2011
parent reply Kapps <Kapps NotValidEmail.com> writes:
Also, the title is currently "- The D Programming Language". I assume 
that "- " at the start shouldn't be there?

On 21/11/2011 1:28 AM, Kapps wrote:
 I think it actually looks quite nice.

 Some issues:
 I really think it should be Expand/Contract Example instead of +/-
 Example. Having +/- after a period just seems... strange.

 Example Convenience[1] uses 'dictionary' as the name of the AA, then
 references it by using 'table'.
 Example Convenience[2] uses new Widget. This goes against  property I
 believe, and would probably not work with -property.

 I really don't like the "#!/usr/bin/rdmd" at the top. I believe this is
 a unix thing (at the very least, Windows command prompt does not support
 '#!'), and it's worrying seeing something like that when looking at
 basic examples for a cross-platform language. It will either confuse the
 user if they don't know what it is, perhaps making them think it's part
 of the language (as # usually means a preprocessor directive), or make
 them wonder whether things like Windows are treated second-hand when
 it's all they see.


 On 20/11/2011 11:31 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right. * Border is thinner * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally * Footer is better integrated * Copyright text is smaller Andrei


Nov 20 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 1:34 AM, Kapps wrote:
 Also, the title is currently "- The D Programming Language". I assume
 that "- " at the start shouldn't be there?

Not seeing that. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
next sibling parent Kapps <Kapps NotValidEmail.com> writes:
It definitely seems to be part of the page.

Source on Firefox 8.0 - Windows - After cache clear:
<meta name="description" content="D Programming Language" />
<title> - D Programming Language</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="css/style.css" />

Source on Debian machine from curl:
curl -s http://d-programming-language.org/new/ | grep "<title>"
<title> - D Programming Language</title>


On 21/11/2011 1:45 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 1:34 AM, Kapps wrote:
 Also, the title is currently "- The D Programming Language". I assume
 that "- " at the start shouldn't be there?

Not seeing that. Andrei

Nov 20 2011
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 1:45 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 1:34 AM, Kapps wrote:
 Also, the title is currently "- The D Programming Language". I assume
 that "- " at the start shouldn't be there?

Not seeing that. Andrei

Oh, got it. Fixed. Andrei
Nov 20 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply tn <no email.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:

 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...)

The page starts to look good. But the title ("The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency.") is too long and hard to read. I would shorten it to something like "The D programming language - Convenience, Power, Efficiency" or even "The D programming language".
Nov 21 2011
parent Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On 21/11/11 8:23 AM, Derek wrote:
 On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:02:39 +1100, tn <no email.com> wrote:

 The page starts to look good. But the title ("The D programming
 language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency.") is
 too long and hard to read. I would shorten it to something like "The D
 programming language - Convenience, Power, Efficiency" or even "The D
 programming language".

Yes!

Agree. It also splits over a line for me, which is kind of ugly for a title.
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Derek <ddparnell bigpond.com> writes:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:02:39 +1100, tn <no email.com> wrote:

 The page starts to look good. But the title ("The D programming  
 language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency.") is  
 too long and hard to read. I would shorten it to something like "The D  
 programming language - Convenience, Power, Efficiency" or even "The D  
 programming language".

Yes! -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 21/11/2011 05:31, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right.

Something that's just annoyed me thoroughly now you've done this (though it didn't before for some reason) - my eyes have to look all over the place to see everything on the screen. Please use something like: body { max-width: 1300px; margin: 0px auto; } This won't be noticeable for smaller screens, but on larger screens it makes the page a lot more readable.
 * Border is thinner

 * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally

On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn't fit on one line. Titles should not be so long!
 * Footer is better integrated

 * Copyright text is smaller


 Andrei

-- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Nov 21 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On 21/11/2011 05:31, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/20/11 2:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

I made one more pass and improved the homepage in a number of ways. (Learned about <div> more than I ever wanted to know...) * The news column is now on the right.

Something that's just annoyed me thoroughly now you've done this (though it didn't before for some reason) - my eyes have to look all over the place to see everything on the screen. Please use something like: body { max-width: 1300px; margin: 0px auto; }

Set it to 1600px.
 This won't be noticeable for smaller screens, but on larger screens it
 makes the page a lot more readable.

 * Border is thinner

 * The page behaves better when shrinking laterally

On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn't fit on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title. Andrei
Nov 21 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn't fit
 on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title.

Then what is it? It's sure not a sentence, and it's at the top of the page. - Jonathan M Davis

Section header. Andrei
Nov 21 2011
next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, November 21, 2011 13:35:21 Jimmy Cao wrote:
 2011/11/21 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>
 
 On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title
 doesn't fit on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title.

Then what is it? It's sure not a sentence, and it's at the top of the page. - Jonathan M Davis

Section header.

This is an urgent fix of utmost grammatical importance: The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency. -> The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, and Native Efficiency A dash in place of the colon would also work. A section header is a title, so capitalize accordingly.

1. It's odd to call the header on the top of the page something other than a title IMHO, but it's a matter of semantics, I suppose. 2. Regardless of that, I would argue that section headers _are_ titles and should follow the same rules with regards to capitalization. Also, it should probably be a colon after "The D Programming Language" rather than a period. It makes more sense grammatically. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling parent Adam Richardson <simpleshot gmail.com> writes:
--000e0cd56bc852136a04b2450a8b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>wrote:

 On Monday, November 21, 2011 13:35:21 Jimmy Cao wrote:
 2011/11/21 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>

 On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title
 doesn't fit on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title.

Then what is it? It's sure not a sentence, and it's at the top of the page. - Jonathan M Davis

Section header.

This is an urgent fix of utmost grammatical importance: The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency. -> The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, and Native Efficiency A dash in place of the colon would also work. A section header is a

 so capitalize accordingly.

1. It's odd to call the header on the top of the page something other than a title IMHO, but it's a matter of semantics, I suppose. 2. Regardless of that, I would argue that section headers _are_ titles and should follow the same rules with regards to capitalization. Also, it should probably be a colon after "The D Programming Language" rather than a period. It makes more sense grammatically. - Jonathan M Davis

Insisting that titles be capitalized to match typical print publication conventions is rather old school in terms of web development, and D is anything but old school :) Rather, the style guide for the site should be implemented consistently site-wide, and the capitalization scheme (which CAN require rules such as those outlined by the *The Chicago Manual of Style *, but, again, does not have to) should be addressed in the style guide: http://styleguide.yahoo.com/editing/treat-abbreviations-capitalization-and-titles-consistently/capitalization Styling depends on *what something is* and *where it is *in the flow of the page. A heading in an aside might be styled in sentence case as opposed to the same content appearing within the main header tag of a page, which might be title case. As long as the D website consistently follows the style choices laid out for the site, all will be well :) That said, the main header could benefit from the colon as pointed out by others, and the tagline could be improved. Steve Krug provides some great, quick insights on what makes a great tagline: http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Me-Think-Usability/dp/0321344758 Adam --000e0cd56bc852136a04b2450a8b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Jonathan M Davis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a = href=3D"mailto:jmdavisProg gmx.com">jmdavisProg gmx.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot= e:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On Monday, November 21, 2011 13:35:= 21 Jimmy Cao wrote:<br> &gt; 2011/11/21 Andrei Alexandrescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmai= l erdani.org">SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org</a>&gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wro= te:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On my laptop&#39;s screen (1280x800, not the smallest= ) the title<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; doesn&#39;t fit on one line. Titles should not be so = long!<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; It&#39;s not a title.<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; Then what is it? It&#39;s sure not a sentence, and it&#39;s a= t the top of the<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; page.<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; - Jonathan M Davis<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; Section header.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; This is an urgent fix of utmost grammatical importance:<br> &gt;<br> &gt; The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native= <br> &gt; efficiency. -&gt; =A0The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, M= odeling<br> &gt; Power, and Native Efficiency<br> &gt;<br> &gt; A dash in place of the colon would also work. =A0A section header is a= title,<br> &gt; so capitalize accordingly.<br> <br> </div></div>1. It&#39;s odd to call the header on the top of the page somet= hing other than a<br> title IMHO, but it&#39;s a matter of semantics, I suppose.<br> <br> 2. Regardless of that, I would argue that section headers _are_ titles and<= br> should follow the same rules with regards to capitalization.<br> <br> Also, it should probably be a colon after &quot;The D Programming Language&= quot; rather<br> than a period. It makes more sense grammatically.<br> <span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> - Jonathan M Davis<br> </font></span></blockquote></div><br>Insisting that titles be capitalized t= o match typical print publication conventions is rather old school in terms= of web development, and D is anything but old school :) Rather, the style = guide for the site should be implemented consistently site-wide, and the ca= pitalization scheme (which CAN require rules such as those outlined by the= =A0<i style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12px; ">The Chicago Manual of Style</i><span style=3D"col= or: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12px; ">, but, again, does not have to</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(51, = 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">) sh= ould be addressed in the style guide:</span><div> <font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica= , sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><= br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#3333= 33" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><a href=3D"http://styleguide.yahoo.com/editing/t= reat-abbreviations-capitalization-and-titles-consistently/capitalization">h= ttp://styleguide.yahoo.com/editing/treat-abbreviations-capitalization-and-t= itles-consistently/capitalization</a></span><br> </font><div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#333333" face=3D= "Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"fo= nt-size: 12px; "><br></span></font><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" co= lor=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-= style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">Styling depends on <b>what something= is</b> and <b>where it is </b>in the flow of the page. A heading in an asi= de might be styled in sentence case as opposed to the same content appearin= g within the main header tag of a page, which might be title case. As long = as the D website consistently follows the style choices laid out for the si= te, all will be well :)</span></font></div> <div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial, Helv= etica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12p= x;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"= #333333" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-s= pan" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">That said, the main header could benefit fr= om the colon as pointed out by others, and the tagline could be improved. S= teve Krug provides some great, quick insights on what makes a great tagline= :</span></font></div> <div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial, Helv= etica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12p= x;"><a href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Me-Think-Usability/dp/032134= 4758">http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Me-Think-Usability/dp/0321344758</a><= /span></font></div> <div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial, Helv= etica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12p= x;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"= #333333" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-s= pan" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">Adam</span></font></div> </div></div></div> --000e0cd56bc852136a04b2450a8b--
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn't fit
 on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title.

Then what is it? It's sure not a sentence, and it's at the top of the page. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--001517479514d4a08404b243caea
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2011/11/21 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>

 On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:

 On my laptop's screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn't fit
 on one line. Titles should not be so long!

It's not a title.

Then what is it? It's sure not a sentence, and it's at the top of the page. - Jonathan M Davis

Section header.

This is an urgent fix of utmost grammatical importance: The D programming language. Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency. -> The D Programming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, and Native Efficiency A dash in place of the colon would also work. A section header is a title, so capitalize accordingly. --001517479514d4a08404b243caea Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/11/21 Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D= "ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org" target=3D"_blank= ">SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org</a>&gt;</span><br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On 11/21/11 12:50 PM, Jonathan M Davis = wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:33:19 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:<br> </div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor= der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On my laptop&#39;s screen (1280x800, not the smallest) the title doesn&#39;= t fit<br> on one line. Titles should not be so long!<br> </blockquote> <br> It&#39;s not a title.<br> </div></blockquote> <br><div> Then what is it? It&#39;s sure not a sentence, and it&#39;s at the top of t= he page.<br> <br> - Jonathan M Davis<br> </div></blockquote> <br> Section header.</blockquote><div><br></div>This is an urgent fix of utmost = grammatical importance:<br><div><br></div><div>The D programming language. = Modern convenience. Modeling power. Native efficiency. -&gt; =A0The D Progr= amming Language: Modern Convenience, Modeling Power, and Native Efficiency<= /div> <div><br></div><div>A dash in place of the colon would also work. =A0A sect= ion header is a title, so capitalize accordingly.=A0</div></div></div> --001517479514d4a08404b243caea--
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/21/11 11:56 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 Something that's just annoyed me thoroughly now you've done this (though
 it didn't before for some reason) - my eyes have to look all over the
 place to see everything on the screen. Please use something like:

 body {
 max-width: 1300px;
 margin: 0px auto;
 }

 This won't be noticeable for smaller screens, but on larger screens it
 makes the page a lot more readable.

I decided to undo this artificial limitation. Sorry. Andrei
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 20.11.2011 09:40, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

First, a comment. I like the word "control" in the first line. Along with "pragmatic" it's IMHO one of the key themes of D. If asked for a slogan for D, I'd say, "Regain control with D". Consider replacing the "power" title with "control". Everybody claims power, far fewers languages claim control. "The best paradigm is to not impose one at the expense of others" I think the underlying idea, is that each paradigm is good for solving particular kinds of problems, but poor for others. I'm not quite sure how to word this, something like, "The best programming paradigm depends on the problem domain", or "No single paradigm is optimal for all problem domains". As others said, the word "naturally" here is a bit funny: "D compiles naturally to efficient native code." How about: "D compiles directly to efficient native code."
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Matt Soucy <msoucy csh.rit.edu> writes:
On 11/20/2011 03:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

sample code should use dictionary["two"] instead of table["two"] on line 8, so that it would actually compile. Other than that nitpick, and the fact that the download page is still on digitalmars.com, it looks great!
Nov 21 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Brad Anderson <eco gnuk.net> writes:
--f46d042f97524ffabb04b255f6c2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu <
SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread, then
 made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.**org/new/<http://d-programming-language.org/new/>

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback please
 focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

Solid improvements. In the first example shouldn't: auto x = min(arr[0], table["two"]); be: auto x = min(arr[0], dictionary["two"]); Regards, Brad Anderson --f46d042f97524ffabb04b255f6c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;= <a href=3D"mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org">SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.= org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex;"> Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread, then m= ade one more pass:<br> <br> <a href=3D"http://d-programming-language.org/new/" target=3D"_blank">http:/= /d-programming-language.<u></u>org/new/</a><br> <br> I didn&#39;t make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news, = links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback please = focus on the core message.<br> <br> There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different, text= is shorter, no more &quot;community&quot; section (probably it&#39;ll go o= n a different page).<br> <br> There&#39;s a prominent example at the top. I&#39;m thinking to rotate that= randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.<br> <br> <br> Thanks,<br> <br> Andrei<br> </blockquote></div><br><div>Solid improvements.</div><div><br></div><div>In= the first example shouldn&#39;t:</div><div>=A0 =A0 auto x =3D min(arr[0], = table[&quot;two&quot;]);</div><div>be:</div><div><div>=A0 =A0 auto x =3D mi= n(arr[0], dictionary[&quot;two&quot;]);</div> </div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Brad Anderson</div> --f46d042f97524ffabb04b255f6c2--
Nov 22 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/22/11 11:16 AM, Brad Anderson wrote:
 Solid improvements.

 In the first example shouldn't:
      auto x = min(arr[0], table["two"]);
 be:
      auto x = min(arr[0], dictionary["two"]);

Fixed. Also added [your code here] at the end of the top example. Try it! Andrei
Nov 22 2011
next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, November 23, 2011 18:23:11 Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Please, *please* don't make the website narrow like this:
 http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.html
 
 This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but
 don't make the entire website narrow because of that single page.

Yeah. That's pretty bad. I'd have expected the site to vary its width depending on your browser window, not force itself to an insanely narrow width. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/23/11 11:23 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Please, *please* don't make the website narrow like this:
 http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.html

 This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but
 don't make the entire website narrow because of that single page.

Ah, yah. Fixed. Thanks! Andrei
Nov 23 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/23/11 11:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/23/11 11:23 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Please, *please* don't make the website narrow like this:
 http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.html

 This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but
 don't make the entire website narrow because of that single page.

Ah, yah. Fixed. Thanks! Andrei

I also made the slogan H2 instead of H1. Andrei
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
Please, *please* don't make the website narrow like this:
http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.html

This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but
don't make the entire website narrow because of that single page.
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--485b3970cd1e65af2404b26a9b8b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2011/11/23 Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>

 On 11/23/11 11:40 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 11/23/11 11:23 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 Please, *please* don't make the website narrow like this:
 http://www.d-programming-**language.org/new/phobos/std_**algorithm.html<http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.html>

 This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but
 don't make the entire website narrow because of that single page.

Ah, yah. Fixed. Thanks! Andrei

I also made the slogan H2 instead of H1.

You should also put a colon (to make it grammatically correct). --485b3970cd1e65af2404b26a9b8b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/11/23 Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:SeeW= ebsiteForEmail erdani.org">SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org</a>&gt;</span><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On 11/23/11 11:40 AM, Andrei Alexan= drescu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On 11/23/11 11:23 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Please, *please* don&#39;t make the website narrow like this:<br> <a href=3D"http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/phobos/std_algorithm.h= tml" target=3D"_blank">http://www.d-programming-<u></u>language.org/new/pho= bos/std_<u></u>algorithm.html</a><br> <br> This is only necessary for that twitter thing on the /new page, but<br> don&#39;t make the entire website narrow because of that single page.<br> </blockquote> <br> Ah, yah. Fixed. Thanks!<br> <br> Andrei<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div> I also made the slogan H2 instead of H1.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yo= u should also put a colon (to make it grammatically correct).</div></div><b= r> --485b3970cd1e65af2404b26a9b8b--
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply RivenTheMage <riven-mage id.ru> writes:
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

There is an error, I believe: "scope statements" link should point to #ScopeGuardStatement, not #ScopeBlockStatement.
Nov 23 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/23/11 1:17 PM, RivenTheMage wrote:
 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

There is an error, I believe: "scope statements" link should point to #ScopeGuardStatement, not #ScopeBlockStatement.

Fixed. Thanks! Andrei
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the quick fix Andrei. :-)
Nov 23 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Martin Nowak" <dawg dawgfoto.de> writes:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 09:40:09 +0100, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Thanks to all who provided feedback! I read again the entire thread,  
 then made one more pass:

 http://d-programming-language.org/new/

 I didn't make technical/aesthetic changes (JS/noJS, placement of news,  
 links to secondary pages etc) so when providing additional feedback  
 please focus on the core message.

 There are significant changes of content: some keywords are different,  
 text is shorter, no more "community" section (probably it'll go on a  
 different page).

 There's a prominent example at the top. I'm thinking to rotate that  
 randomly, and pick examples out of an always-running contest.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

The css appears to be broken for http://d-programming-language.org/class.html as well as http://d-programming-language.org/new/class.html using Opera 11.52. martin
Nov 24 2011
prev sibling parent reply Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--f46d042fdb36a75d5504b2dabccf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

BTW, something is wrong with the class section of the language reference:
http://d-programming-language.org/new/class.html

It's been like that for months.

--f46d042fdb36a75d5504b2dabccf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BTW, something is wrong with the class section of the language reference:=
=A0<a href=3D"http://d-programming-language.org/new/class.html">http://d-pr=
ogramming-language.org/new/class.html</a><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s been =
like that for months.</div>

--f46d042fdb36a75d5504b2dabccf--
Nov 28 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-29 08:40, Caligo wrote:
 BTW, something is wrong with the class section of the language
 reference: http://d-programming-language.org/new/class.html

 It's been like that for months.

There's a pull request available but it hasn't been merged. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 28 2011