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digitalmars.D - Weak Eco System?

reply Benro <benro rhysoft.com> writes:
A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a 
Windows environment.

Installation of D fairly standard and no issues.


**Jetbrain intellij-dlanguage:**

* Installed Intellij
* Found the dlanguage plugin and installed

Then found out it requires Dub, DCD, Dscanner, DFmt ..

And here the "work" begins. It already requires GIT to be 
installed on the host system.

Then it require knowledge how to clone the projects and building 
them. Several of the projects have out of date information.

DCD required:
"dub build --build=release --config=client --force"
"dub build --build=release --config=server --force"

Forced was needed or compilation failed on different versions on 
3th party packages.

Dfmt required:
"git submodule update --init --recursive" and then build.bat

Dscanner:
Needed dub to build. Its build.bat was out of date and gave 
errors.

After these steps the files got linked into the dlanguage plugin. 
Partially they worked and also gave errors: 
"com.google.gson.stream.MalformedJsonException: Use 
JsonReader.setLenient(true) to accept malformed JSON at line 1 
column 5 path $".

Usability: 4/10 ( Color Syntax worked, Some type hinting worked )


**Visual Studio Code dlang-vscode:**

* Installed.
* Errors on fetching several of the dependances (dcd etc). As 
those dependances did not get installed, most enhancements did 
not work.

Usability: 1/10 ( Color Syntax worked )


**Visual Studio Code code-d:**

* Installed.

* Gave warning to install Workspaces-d. Auto installed 
Workspaces-d. Restarted.
* Gave warning for DUB, DCD, etc ... Auto installed all 
dependances.

Again issues. Code formatting etc worked but no code hinting or 
any advanced features. Looks more or less like a colored editor 
with formatting. Looked for solution, nothing found.

Usability: 2/10 ( Color Syntax, Code formatting worked )

4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.


Its not the my first time trying to get D working as a production 
environment ( beyond just command line + simple color editor ). A 
lot of times it comes down to different version plugins, bugs / 
out of date with the main DMD version, main git code not 
stable/tested properly.

And its not my attempt trying to get D editors set up in a 
acceptable way. Always gave up and back to C# because "it just 
works".

These steps are too much for people who want to quickly check out 
D and its Editor/IDE support. If D wants to showcase itself to 
new developers or developers coming from different languages 
there is a need for a more unified environment.

------------------------------

My question/suggestion becomes why are DCD, Dscanner, DFormat etc 
not part of the default installation.

* This means that they can be tested for release with that 
version of D.
* It means that Editor/IDE authors can predict where these files 
are.
* It bypasses a lot of issues where people download the "latest" 
version from GIT and run into issues.

Its "Win Win" for all ...
May 16
next sibling parent burber <burb dr.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 14:51:29 UTC, Benro wrote:
 A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a 
 Windows environment.

 [...]
I've tried many different IDEs, some are alright but most don't have what I personally think they should have. I think if this language had a solid IDE similar to IntelliJ and/or Eclipse, it would be great. I can't blame anyone for the plugins being outdated or buggy because it's community ran, there isn't much more you can expect. I'm one of those people who depend on a good IDE (used Vim and Emacs maybe once or twice) and I think that D could get really popular if it had better IDE support.
May 16
prev sibling next sibling parent aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 14:51:29 UTC, Benro wrote:
 A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a 
 Windows environment.

 [...]
I just install sublime text editor and that all the tooling I ever needed. Sublime has a Dkit plugin too. I agree to bundling the tools together though.
May 16
prev sibling next sibling parent reply WebFreak001 <d.forum webfreak.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 14:51:29 UTC, Benro wrote:
 **Visual Studio Code code-d:**

 * Installed.

 * Gave warning to install Workspaces-d. Auto installed 
 Workspaces-d. Restarted.
 * Gave warning for DUB, DCD, etc ... Auto installed all 
 dependances.

 Again issues. Code formatting etc worked but no code hinting or 
 any advanced features. Looks more or less like a colored editor 
 with formatting. Looked for solution, nothing found.

 Usability: 2/10 ( Color Syntax, Code formatting worked )

 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Sorry to hear that, usually the issue is directly logged to the developer tools (Ctrl-Shift-P -> Toggle Developer Tools) which you can just send in as issue on https://github.com/Pure-D/code-d if it is broken. It should always have basic auto completion for the current file and project auto completion for dub projects (but not sub packages) as well as linting the file when saving and even showing build errors when using dub. If it can't find the D import directory (std, core) then it should also show a warning to you so I don't really know what went wrong without the log. In the next big version update the log will be easier to access by the output tab in vscode.
May 16
parent Benro <benro rhysoft.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 16:31:54 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote:
 Sorry to hear that, usually the issue is directly logged to the 
 developer tools (Ctrl-Shift-P -> Toggle Developer Tools) which 
 you can just send in as issue on 
 https://github.com/Pure-D/code-d if it is broken. It should 
 always have basic auto completion for the current file and 
 project auto completion for dub projects (but not sub packages) 
 as well as linting the file when saving and even showing build 
 errors when using dub. If it can't find the D import directory 
 (std, core) then it should also show a warning to you so I 
 don't really know what went wrong without the log. In the next 
 big version update the log will be easier to access by the 
 output tab in vscode.
I will take another look at it tomorrow. The installation was at my work. At home i need to deal with another issue, so i can not reproduce it. D installed on USB stick. Can not uninstall ( stick at work ). Can not install new version because the old one can not uninstall. Yay...
May 16
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 14:51:29 UTC, Benro wrote:
 Then found out it requires Dub, DCD, Dscanner, DFmt ..

 And here the "work" begins. It already requires GIT to be 
 installed on the host system.

 Then it require knowledge how to clone the projects and 
 building them. Several of the projects have out of date 
 information.

 DCD required:
 "dub build --build=release --config=client --force"
 "dub build --build=release --config=server --force"

 Forced was needed or compilation failed on different versions 
 on 3th party packages.

 Dfmt required:
 "git submodule update --init --recursive" and then build.bat

 Dscanner:
 Needed dub to build. Its build.bat was out of date and gave 
 errors.
If you have problems with Hackerpilot's programs don't forget to report an issue. His tools are now maintained by an organization people (https://github.com/dlang-community) and fix are merged fast. For example the build.bat fix could have been made and merged in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report it!
May 16
parent reply Benro <benro rhysoft.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 17:14:49 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 For example the build.bat fix could have been made and merged 
 in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report it!
First of all. ! is not appreciated. This is considered yelling. Second. The dscanner issue was listed on there own Git "build.bat is out of date" for over 3 months. So please do not poke people about not reporting a issue, that is already known for 3 months. And in case of dscanner, using dup worked just as well but you need to figure it our yourself. And for your information, i reported SEVERAL issues each time i gave D a try. More then half the times it ended up being a issue with dcd or dscanner. Why do i need to defend myself from you? Very welcoming attitude. Some authors responded fast but had been unable to fix the issue because it was: * DCD ( Twice ). * Incompatibility between D versions, plugin was not updated. Solved it with running the older D version. * A 3th party plugin, that was use was incompatibility ( one with a version issue and one where it did not fix a D regression issue ). I do not take away from the editor authors there hard word but when they need to rely on dscanner, dcd etc for stability, they end up with bug reports that are constantly not there issue. Getting blasted for supposedly not reporting bugs irks the hell out of me. The Code-d issue i have nothing to report because there is not a single error message. It simply does not work. Output is clean. Workspace-d reported no issue. Bug report: It does not work. Yea, the author will love that one. O_o The IntelliJ IDEA, yea, i need to report that one but i was tired after the whole installation cycle. I tried that one in the end. That was my bad. I rather post it here and bring focus on the whole issue then simply report it on git and then months later coming back to see nothing has changed ( again and again ).
May 16
next sibling parent Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 21:08:34 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 17:14:49 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 For example the build.bat fix could have been made and merged 
 in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report it!
First of all. ! is not appreciated. This is considered yelling. Second. The dscanner issue was listed on there own Git "build.bat is out of date" for over 3 months. So please do not poke people about not reporting a issue, that is already known for 3 months. And in case of dscanner, using dup worked just as well but you need to figure it our yourself. And for your information, i reported SEVERAL issues each time i gave D a try. More then half the times it ended up being a issue with dcd or dscanner. Why do i need to defend myself from you? Very welcoming attitude. [...] Getting blasted for supposedly not reporting bugs irks the hell out of me.
I didn't blast you, don't feel attacked by a simple exclamation mark: you didn't give all the information about the D-Scanner "build.bat" bug. I was only speaking about this. The fact is as a user I'm quite satisfied with the state of the ecosystem.
May 16
prev sibling parent reply Mike B Johnson <Mikey Ikes.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 21:08:34 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 17:14:49 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 For example the build.bat fix could have been made and merged 
 in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report it!
First of all. ! is not appreciated. This is considered yelling.
Grow up!!!!! ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
May 16
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 23:17:10 Mike B Johnson via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 21:08:34 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 17:14:49 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 For example the build.bat fix could have been made and merged
 in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report it!
First of all. ! is not appreciated. This is considered yelling.
Grow up!!!!! ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Let's please be civil. It can be quite easy to misinterpet tone when dealing only with text, but it looks to me like there's too much overacting in this thread in general. Let's take the feedback and try and be constructive about it. And regardless of what someone else posted, insults are not appropriate here. - Jonathan M Davis
May 16
parent reply biocyberman <biocyberman gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 00:18:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 23:17:10 Mike B Johnson via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 21:08:34 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 17:14:49 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 For example the build.bat fix could have been made and 
 merged in 10 min. if you would have took the time to report 
 it!
First of all. ! is not appreciated. This is considered yelling.
Grow up!!!!! ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Let's please be civil. It can be quite easy to misinterpet tone when dealing only with text, but it looks to me like there's too much overacting in this thread in general. Let's take the feedback and try and be constructive about it. And regardless of what someone else posted, insults are not appropriate here. - Jonathan M Davis
To have a reference for what Jonathan is saying, read this: https://www.fastcodesign.com/3036748/why-its-so-hard-to-detect-emotion- n-emails-and-texts. In general, programmers are both very patient and impatient at the same time. For example, they can be very patient to fix their own bugs, and very very very impatient to deal with bugs made by other programmers :). Therefore I definitely suggest this forum to support rich text format and emoticons.
May 19
parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Friday, 19 May 2017 at 08:30:02 UTC, biocyberman wrote:
 [...]

 Therefore I definitely suggest this forum to support rich text 
 format and emoticons.
Considering that the forum is an NNTP / mailing list frontend I am not sure how viable that is with regards to people using NNTP clients.
May 19
prev sibling parent reply Benro <benro rhysoft.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
 Grow up!!!!!

 ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only 
 exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Thank you for your helpful comment. I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members. One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority. Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages. D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day". Lets see with other languages? Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box. ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly. Rust: ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ... I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts. It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count. I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them. I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad. But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts. Let me mention how a few other languages do things: Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever? Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not? Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum. Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals. Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation. dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's? Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen. It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag. How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>. Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up. I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time. Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this. Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!
May 17
next sibling parent reply Daniel Kozak via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
I do not see any problem with D community. It is one of the best community
I known btw. I would like to have better IDE support for D too, but this is
something I do not see comming until Jetbrains make it for us (and I do not
see why would they  do this until D is much more popular)

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Benro via Digitalmars-d <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:

 Grow up!!!!!

 ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to
 insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Thank you for your helpful comment. I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members. One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority. Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages. D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day". Lets see with other languages? Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box. ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly. Rust: ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ... I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts. It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count. I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them. I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad. But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts. Let me mention how a few other languages do things: Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever? Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not? Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum. Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals. Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation. dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's? Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen. It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag. How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>. Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up. I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time. Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this. Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!
May 17
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 08:27:50 UTC, Daniel Kozak wrote:
 I do not see any problem with D community.
Wow!
May 17
prev sibling next sibling parent Daniel Kozak via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
Btw, I have no issue with code-d on linux, but on windows why havent you
try visuald ide? I belive it is one of the best D ide on windows right now
and if I remember correctly it is part of standard D installer

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Daniel Kozak <kozzi11 gmail.com> wrote:

 I do not see any problem with D community. It is one of the best community
 I known btw. I would like to have better IDE support for D too, but this is
 something I do not see comming until Jetbrains make it for us (and I do not
 see why would they  do this until D is much more popular)

 On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Benro via Digitalmars-d <
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:

 Grow up!!!!!

 ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to
 insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Thank you for your helpful comment. I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members. One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority. Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages. D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day". Lets see with other languages? Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box. ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly. Rust: ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ... I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts. It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count. I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them. I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad. But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts. Let me mention how a few other languages do things: Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever? Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not? Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum. Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals. Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation. dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's? Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen. It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag. How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>. Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up. I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time. Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this. Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!
May 17
prev sibling next sibling parent Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 08:19:43 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
 Grow up!!!!!

 ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only 
 exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Thank you for your helpful comment. I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members. One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority. Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages. D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day". Lets see with other languages? Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box. ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly. Rust: ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ... I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts. It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count. I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them. I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad. But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts. Let me mention how a few other languages do things: Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever?
D release cycle is not so bad. I also program in Object Pascal: FPC has one release every 2 years...There's better, there's worst. The schedule is sometimes broken but it's because of the dot releases which fix regressions. At least they are handled and not ignored just to respect a release date.
 Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able 
 Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( 
 https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). 
 From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors 
 that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. 
 Inviting is it not?

 Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you 
 consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active 
 communities outside there main side / forum.
You're welcome in D IRC channel. It's very active, very friendly, less formal than the forum, more immediate. There are channels with way more users but almost no public conversations.
 Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part 
 of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to 
 turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other 
 languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards 
 proposals.

 Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main 
 installation.

 dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be 
 default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, 
 getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd 
 or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's?

 Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. 
 The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped 
 onto a user his screen.

 It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever 
 user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag.


 How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your 
 community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear 
 lack of people to support the language and this attitude of 
 running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>.
The 3 compilers use the same front-end. Lexing, parsing, semantic are common.
 Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about 
 corporate backers, its about how the community is build up.


 I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There 
 are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see 
 after a short amount of time.


 Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am 
 trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much 
 time writing this.

 Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike 
 to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to 
 deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good 
 day to you Sir!
While being angry remove the barrier of the politeness and allows a certain frankness, you should calm down. After all it's only about a misunderstanding initiated by an exclamation mark. Well, i think this thread is dead but don't give up for all that, these kind of conversation happen several times per year, it's not that a problem for me...life is so.
May 17
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
 I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to 
 the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
 
 One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same 
 issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard 
 response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei
May 17
parent reply ezneh <petitv.isat gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
 I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more 
 related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its 
 members.
 
 One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the 
 exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues 
 and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a 
 sense of superiority.
Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei
Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D). I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out". It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).
May 17
next sibling parent aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 11:08:00 UTC, ezneh wrote:
 On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 [...]
Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D). I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out". It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).
Windows without visual studio generally suck
May 17
prev sibling parent reply juanjux <juanjo juanjoalvarez.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 11:08:00 UTC, ezneh wrote:
 On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
 I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more 
 related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its 
 members.
 
 One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the 
 exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues 
 and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with 
 a sense of superiority.
Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei
Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D). I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out". It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).
I use D with the Vim plugin, Dutyl. The installation of dependences is somewhat manual but once it installed it works perfectly well. Compared with the Go plugin the only thing that I miss is auto downloading of dependences; maybe I'll try to make a PR tonight. The original poster attitude to the exclamation sounds incredibly disproportionate. Replies were friendly until that point. As another newcomer newcomer, sounds like another Rust user extending the Crusade, but maybe is just me.
May 17
parent Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 16:32:45 UTC, juanjux wrote:
 On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 11:08:00 UTC, ezneh wrote:
 [...]
I use D with the Vim plugin, Dutyl. The installation of dependences is somewhat manual but once it installed it works perfectly well. Compared with the Go plugin the only thing that I miss is auto downloading of dependences; maybe I'll try to make a PR tonight. The original poster attitude to the exclamation sounds incredibly disproportionate. Replies were friendly until that point. As another newcomer newcomer, sounds like another Rust user extending the Crusade, but maybe is just me.
I suggest you to tryout also 'ale' [1], it works amazingly well! [1] https://github.com/w0rp/ale /Paolo
May 17
prev sibling parent reply Mike B Johnson <Mikey Ikes.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 08:19:43 UTC, Benro wrote:
 On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
 Grow up!!!!!

 ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only 
 exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
Thank you for your helpful comment. I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
You should ask yourself that question, seriously. You started with your condescending ego based remark about how ! is yelling, when it is not! THIS IS YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which, in fact, it is not because no sound was made. But because of your need to be treated as an authority you pretend to know something and then run around trying to enforce some imaginary law that you have self appointed yourself the judge, jury, and executioner. Then, because you think you are intelligent you try to pretend further to hold some imaginary high ground because you are born from the loins of Jesus himself and the rest of us heathens are too stupid to get it. My suggestion, go back to acting school. Whatever you are doing isn't working.
May 22
parent reply Benro <benro rhysoft.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 09:13:22 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
 You should ask yourself that question, seriously. You started 
 with your condescending ego based remark about how ! is 
 yelling, when it is not! THIS IS 
 YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Which, in fact, it is not because no sound was made. But 
 because of your need to be treated as an authority you pretend 
 to know something and then run around trying to enforce some 
 imaginary law that you have self appointed yourself the judge, 
 jury, and executioner.

 Then, because you think you are intelligent you try to pretend 
 further to hold some imaginary high ground because you are born 
 from the loins of Jesus himself and the rest of us heathens are 
 too stupid to get it.

 My suggestion, go back to acting school. Whatever you are doing 
 isn't working.
Instead of actually commenting on the topic, you seem to keep focusing on a misunderstanding that everybody got over the a long time ago. All you do is make people feel unwelcome, that seems to be your goal. 1. Statement 2. Misunderstanding 3. Fixed << It ended here 4. << Your troll comment 5. << My response 6. << Several days later your troll comment again 7. This respond to Troll As stated before. Good compiler, weak eco system and some nasty individuals. It seems that you missed my point about "inviting" community. Any normal community will have a moderator that by now removed the clearly trolling attempts. I on the other hand have been using my time productive, trying to figure out where those issue come from as it was impossible to reproduce the same issue ( VSC ) on a system. But, its clear i do not need to wast my time any more feeding the trolls here. All: ************* Sure, it started because of my mistake and i take full responsibility and it was resolved but i will not deal with this attitude any more. And for the people that wonder why D is not more popular. No offense but when you have people like that lurking around and you do not use moderators to deal with them, its difficult for anybody to ever feel welcome. /************ Mike: ************* So, Mike you win, happy now. Probably not because i expect you will post some other nasty responds soon how its all my fault. You got your wish. Uninstalling D / VSC plugin / Jetbrain plugin and will moving to a more open and moderated community. /************ Peace out to the rest of the community and frankly... Good luck!
May 22
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
I am sorry for your experience here. I am unaware of any contributions 
from him in the past. He appears to be pretty new here. We generally try 
not to respond to such posts telling people to quit it until it really 
is well past this point. It is expected that you ignore them. Once you 
start banning + deleting non-spam its a real slippery slope.

Everybody has bad days and sometimes telling them to quit is not a good 
thing.

Yes you came on a bit strong (this is fine) in the beginning but you 
raised excellent points of problems in our ecosystem.

We recently moved dcd, dscanner and dfmt under a community run 
organization to help maintain these code bases. I am part of this 
organization, I will have a chat with HackerPilot (author) to see if 
there is anything we can do to aid packaging.
May 22
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 12:04:39 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 Once you start banning + deleting non-spam its a real slippery 
 slope.
This is an argument I've never understood. Seems to be dominant here. Not banning and deleting is a slippery slope.
May 22
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 22.05.2017 16:31, bachmeier wrote:
 On Monday, 22 May 2017 at 12:04:39 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 Once you start banning + deleting non-spam its a real slippery slope.
This is an argument I've never understood.
First, _this not a significant problem around here_. The forum self-moderates reasonably well. That said: Ignoring trolls is both effective and convenient. Why would anyone be affected by what such a person posts in the first place? Their thoughts have no relevance as they lack maturity. Therefore, all they do is waste a tiny little bit of time now and then. Moderation also wastes time, and it is not actually easy to do well.
 Seems to be dominant here.
It's part of the reason why I'm here. Attacking someone personally for supposedly being hostile is a great way to derail a technical discussion. It's a popular trolling strategy. The way it has worked here so far is that if you are not able to give someone the benefit of the doubt, you simply ignore them.
 Not banning and deleting is a slippery slope.
If you use a newsgroup reader, you can block people's posts at will. Why does there need to be a central authority? It's just overhead. As soon as such an authority is established, people will try to move the line around and argue about definitions of fuzzy terms in order to get the central authority to ban precisely the set of posts they do not like. This is not a productive use of the forums. Also, aggressive moderation does not necessarily solve a problem. People can simply get more sensitive (e.g. they will get offended about trivialities such as exclamation marks and other unreliable cues) and then newcomers, whose first language is not necessarily English, need to learn arbitrary rules in order to be treated respectfully.
May 22
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 05/16/2017 10:51 AM, Benro wrote:
 A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a Windows
 environment.
Full-on IDEs always make simple things complicated. If you're on Windows, I highly recommend Programmer's Notepad 2. Works great with D out-of-the-box (as well as gobs of other languages), is lightning-quick and responsive, and highly configurable. Sublime Text is equally good, if you don't mind a non-native UI. If you're ever checking it out on Linux, KDevelop is pretty decent. Heck, even Kate has built-in D support.
May 17
parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 17:11:14 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
(Abscissa) wrote:
 On 05/16/2017 10:51 AM, Benro wrote:
 A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a 
 Windows
 environment.
Full-on IDEs always make simple things complicated. If you're on Windows, I highly recommend Programmer's Notepad 2. Works great with D out-of-the-box (as well as gobs of other languages), is lightning-quick and responsive, and highly configurable. Sublime Text is equally good, if you don't mind a non-native UI. If you're ever checking it out on Linux, KDevelop is pretty decent. Heck, even Kate has built-in D support.
I'm in agreement on that. I used IDEs for a while, but there was a lot of mental overhead, at least for me. But I can understand that someone coming from a language like Java would feel that an IDE is a necessity. What I find a bit surprising is someone holding up Go as an example of a language with a good IDE situation. Back when I used Go (before discovering D) I saw almost exactly the same discussions. Go had no goods IDEs and it was hurting adoption and you can't program without an IDE. The responses were pretty much the same as those here: you don't need an IDE to write Go code. As an example, there's this thread from 2015, long after I had moved on from Go: https://www.quora.com/Go-programming-language-What-is-the-best-IDE-to-use-for-Go
May 17
prev sibling next sibling parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 14:51:29 UTC, Benro wrote:
 A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a 
 Windows environment.

 [...]
Thanks for the overview. This topic pops up fairly regularly; the gist - from my point of view - is this: While what we currently have is severely lacking when compared to other programming languages, from my observation it seems good enough for the majority of people currently using D (though that view is solely based on reading through this forum, so take it with salt). That means it seems highly unlikely to me you will get someone to do a lot work on this for you for free. Your options (with regards to affecting change) as I see them are as follows: - Pay someone to do it - Do it yourself - Try to convince others to do work you consider worth doing As I stated above, I doubt the last option will work given what we have.
May 17
prev sibling parent reply Manu via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 17 May 2017 at 00:51, Benro via Digitalmars-d <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 [...]

 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Visual Studio proper is the only IDE that 'just works' well, VisualD is very good. MonoDevelop also has good 'just works' support last I checked, but debugging is much better in Visual Studio.
May 17
next sibling parent MysticZach <reachzach ggmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 May 2017 at 05:43:48 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 17 May 2017 at 00:51, Benro via Digitalmars-d < 
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 [...]

 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Visual Studio proper is the only IDE that 'just works' well, VisualD is very good. MonoDevelop also has good 'just works' support last I checked, but debugging is much better in Visual Studio.
I think the lack of clear signals about what works and what doesn't in the most easily reached places on the website, forums, wiki, etc. is probably as big a problem as is any of those things not working in the first place...?
May 18
prev sibling next sibling parent qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 18 May 2017 at 05:43:48 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 17 May 2017 at 00:51, Benro via Digitalmars-d < 
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 [...]

 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Visual Studio proper is the only IDE that 'just works' well, VisualD is very good. MonoDevelop also has good 'just works' support last I checked, but debugging is much better in Visual Studio.
Maybe there should be a more precise description what works. I guess Syntax Highlighting works nearly everywhere. Formatting mostly works, but people need to configure dfmt. I would assume refactoring works nowhere, not even VisualD. I have no Windows, I cannot try VisualD, so do not really know. It would require an integrated parser instead of using the usual external tools (dftm, etc).
May 19
prev sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 18 May 2017 at 05:43:48 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 17 May 2017 at 00:51, Benro via Digitalmars-d < 
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 [...]

 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Visual Studio proper is the only IDE that 'just works' well, VisualD is very good. MonoDevelop also has good 'just works' support last I checked, but debugging is much better in Visual Studio.
We could use a more precise statement than "just works". Here is someone who likes IntelliJ IDEA's Rust support [0]. What I can see: * Show documentation in tooltip * Inline renaming of local variable (What about project-wide?) * Completion (with semantics, I assume) * Find all uses (of a local variable? What about project-wide?) * One-click dependency resolution (I guess) * Folding What I do not see (might or might not be available): * Advanced refactoring, like "extract function" or "converted lambda to named function" * Clicking on build errors/warnings and showing them inline * Displaying unit test status * Integrated debugger (which should probably have various sub-items...) * Integrated profiling * GUI builder * Color picker [0] https://twitter.com/kot_2010/status/865861074360426496
May 22
parent Manu via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 22 May 2017 at 18:56, qznc via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com
 wrote:
 On Thursday, 18 May 2017 at 05:43:48 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 17 May 2017 at 00:51, Benro via Digitalmars-d <
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 [...]
 4 Hours work. Discouraged and gave up after this.
Visual Studio proper is the only IDE that 'just works' well, VisualD is very good. MonoDevelop also has good 'just works' support last I checked, but debugging is much better in Visual Studio.
We could use a more precise statement than "just works".
I said: "'just works' well"... It's a deliberately imprecise statement. For me, it means, it didn't require ANY action from me to make it work, and it 'just works' well enough that I rarely think about it; it tends to do what I expect, when I expect it to, as compared to other industry standard tooling. Since this is a Visual Studio plugin, it is being measured against the VC++ and C# experiences.
May 24