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digitalmars.D - Unification

reply Zexx <katapult europe.com> writes:
Have you heard of language called Vala? They came to the same idea - C# is a
scripting language for web apps, but it's not suitable for demanding
applications.

I myself used Delphi for a long time because Object Pascal provided me with all
the modern features and modern IDE that left competitors in dust. Especiall
Microsoft's pityful Visual Studio 6. Unfortunately, Microsoft responded by
buying shares of Borland, made them go NET and... that was the end of Delphi as
native language. Embarcadero isn't "el salvatore" either.

C and C++ programmers search for a modern language too. Java and C# programmers
have modern languages, but their programs waste 10 times more memory than
necessary and aren't suitable for resource demanding applications.

The creators of D and Vala know why they created it. Maybe there are other
similar projects. But why work separately? There's no chance for success when
working like that.

I propose uniting. Lets make programmers busy on the same goal, instead of 5
separate ones. Making a modern language is only the first part. Other parts are
harder.

1. Quality, fast, optimizing cross-platform compilers. Speed of compilation is
important too.

2. IDEs where you can write and debug code, but NOT only that. IDEs where you
can create visual applications with ease. There will be no popularity util
there's a visual forms editor similar to that in MS Visual Studio or Delphi.

3. Lots of libraries for all purposes (including ports of existing libraries),
so that one doesn't have to reinvent the wheel every time a different project
is started.

4. A dedicated web site where you can upload and download libraries and
components, whether free or commercial. Where you can find everything you need
when you need it, or a place where you can share (or sell) libraries that you
made.

5. Lots of shiny, new, beautiful visual controls already coming in the package.
Some programmers are happy if their programs use standard Linux or Windows
style. That's not enough anymore. 

Programs made with a new tool that kicks arse must attract people. Not  only by
functionality and usability, but by looks too. So that new programmers wish to
make their applications in that and not in other development tools.
Mediocre-looking software won't win any followers.

A dedicated team that makes controls must be formed. And they shouldn't just
copy Office 2007 controls, they should be beyond that. Programs written in a
new unified language must look excellent and modern, to attract young
programmers and increase overall popularity of the new language / environment. 

Those are all the necessary steps. None of that is unnecessary. Without that D
and Vala will stay just experiments. And nobody wants that. Except maybe
Microsoft, Sun and Google.
Dec 02 2009
next sibling parent reply Frank Bolton <frbltn btinternet.com> writes:
Zexx Wrote:


 I myself used Delphi for a long time because Object Pascal provided me with
all the modern features and modern IDE that left competitors in dust. Especiall
Microsoft's pityful Visual Studio 6. Unfortunately, Microsoft responded by
buying shares of Borland, made them go NET and... that was the end of Delphi as
native language. Embarcadero isn't "el salvatore" either.
 

There is always freepascal/lazarus for people still pining for the Delphi :-)
Dec 02 2009
parent reply Zexx <katapult europe.com> writes:
Yeah, they do. Ever tried using it? :)



Frank Bolton Wrote:

 Zexx Wrote:
 
 
 I myself used Delphi for a long time because Object Pascal provided me with
all the modern features and modern IDE that left competitors in dust. Especiall
Microsoft's pityful Visual Studio 6. Unfortunately, Microsoft responded by
buying shares of Borland, made them go NET and... that was the end of Delphi as
native language. Embarcadero isn't "el salvatore" either.
 

There is always freepascal/lazarus for people still pining for the Delphi :-)

Dec 02 2009
parent Frank Bolton <frbltn btinternet.com> writes:
Zexx Wrote:

 Yeah, they do. Ever tried using it? :)
 
 
 
 Frank Bolton Wrote:
 
 Zexx Wrote:
 
 
 I myself used Delphi for a long time because Object Pascal provided me with
all the modern features and modern IDE that left competitors in dust. Especiall
Microsoft's pityful Visual Studio 6. Unfortunately, Microsoft responded by
buying shares of Borland, made them go NET and... that was the end of Delphi as
native language. Embarcadero isn't "el salvatore" either.
 

There is always freepascal/lazarus for people still pining for the Delphi :-)


I use it when I can - its much improved in recent years :-)
Dec 02 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent yigal chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Zexx Wrote:

 Have you heard of language called Vala? They came to the same idea - C# is a
scripting language for web apps, but it's not suitable for demanding
applications.
 
 I myself used Delphi for a long time because Object Pascal provided me with
all the modern features and modern IDE that left competitors in dust. Especiall
Microsoft's pityful Visual Studio 6. Unfortunately, Microsoft responded by
buying shares of Borland, made them go NET and... that was the end of Delphi as
native language. Embarcadero isn't "el salvatore" either.
 
 C and C++ programmers search for a modern language too. Java and C#
programmers have modern languages, but their programs waste 10 times more
memory than necessary and aren't suitable for resource demanding applications.
 
 The creators of D and Vala know why they created it. Maybe there are other
similar projects. But why work separately? There's no chance for success when
working like that.
 
 I propose uniting. Lets make programmers busy on the same goal, instead of 5
separate ones. Making a modern language is only the first part. Other parts are
harder.
 
 1. Quality, fast, optimizing cross-platform compilers. Speed of compilation is
important too.
 
 2. IDEs where you can write and debug code, but NOT only that. IDEs where you
can create visual applications with ease. There will be no popularity util
there's a visual forms editor similar to that in MS Visual Studio or Delphi.
 
 3. Lots of libraries for all purposes (including ports of existing libraries),
so that one doesn't have to reinvent the wheel every time a different project
is started.
 
 4. A dedicated web site where you can upload and download libraries and
components, whether free or commercial. Where you can find everything you need
when you need it, or a place where you can share (or sell) libraries that you
made.
 
 5. Lots of shiny, new, beautiful visual controls already coming in the
package. Some programmers are happy if their programs use standard Linux or
Windows style. That's not enough anymore. 
 
 Programs made with a new tool that kicks arse must attract people. Not  only
by functionality and usability, but by looks too. So that new programmers wish
to make their applications in that and not in other development tools.
Mediocre-looking software won't win any followers.
 
 A dedicated team that makes controls must be formed. And they shouldn't just
copy Office 2007 controls, they should be beyond that. Programs written in a
new unified language must look excellent and modern, to attract young
programmers and increase overall popularity of the new language / environment. 
 
 Those are all the necessary steps. None of that is unnecessary. Without that D
and Vala will stay just experiments. And nobody wants that. Except maybe
Microsoft, Sun and Google.
 
 

My personal opinion - Vala is a waste unnecessary effort. Vala is a 99.9% a reimplementation of C# on top of the GObject system. Had I wanted useing C# I would have just use the .net version or the mon version if I'm on *nix. I don't see any benefit in using the C based Gobject system either.
Dec 02 2009
prev sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
Zexx Wrote:

 The creators of D and Vala know why they created it. Maybe there are other
similar projects. But why work separately? There's no chance for success when
working like that.

It looks to me as though this should be asked of the Vala devs. Vala does have a different goal than that of D. The could probably have made use of D by providing proper libraries to achieve their goal. It appeared 5 years after D so you won't see D enthusiasts jumping on the chance to abandon it. (Vala is of course someone's pet project and they wouldn't abandon it to help the development of someone else's pet project.)
Dec 02 2009