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digitalmars.D - TIOBE February 2016.... 15 ?!

reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
but it sure will be great for its image.
Feb 02 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.
I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.
Feb 02 2016
next sibling parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:45:02 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously.
I'm pretty sure nobody here does, but I know lots of people outside who care. Also I find showing even little achievements good for the troop's morale. I won't enter any fight, see last month's TIOBE post for the arguments ;)
Feb 02 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:50:07 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 Also I find showing even little achievements good for the 
 troop's morale.
Well, it is better to have good information. If you zoom in on the link above you'll see some interesting facts on daily patterns. The Swift and Go graph go way down in weekends, so they are used by businesses. Rust does not, so it currently is appealing to hobbyists. D should think about capturing some of that Rust audience. What is important is to be realistic, so that a good strategy can be selected. Right now Rust may have 10x more interest than D, and C++ 40x more interest than Rust. Just a guesstimate based on search frequencies, but it stacks up with github.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply CraigDillabaugh <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:00:20 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:50:07 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 Also I find showing even little achievements good for the 
 troop's morale.
Well, it is better to have good information. If you zoom in on the link above you'll see some interesting facts on daily patterns. The Swift and Go graph go way down in weekends, so they are used by businesses. Rust does not, so it currently is appealing to hobbyists. D should think about capturing some of that Rust audience. What is important is to be realistic, so that a good strategy can be selected. Right now Rust may have 10x more interest than D, and C++ 40x more interest than Rust. Just a guesstimate based on search frequencies, but it stacks up with github.
C++ is likely searched the most because every time you need to do anything non-trivial you need to go on Stack Overflow or a similar site and find out how to do it, because there is very little chance you would ever be able to figure out the syntax on your own :o)
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 13:12:13 UTC, CraigDillabaugh 
wrote:
 C++ is likely searched the most because every time you need to 
 do anything non-trivial you need to go on Stack Overflow or a 
 similar site and find out how to do it, because there is very 
 little chance you would ever be able to figure out the syntax 
 on your own :o)
:-) "C++" has a 30% drop in weekends so it is certainly affected by business usage.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 08:45 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.
I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.
Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results considerably. Results using Google's categorization instead: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F01kbt7&date=1%2F2009%2085m&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 Those are still the same tiny numbers, though, so there's really not much to infer from this.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:23:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I 
 get are tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the 
 results considerably.
Not really, you look at trends over time not absolutes.
 Results using Google's categorization instead:
I have found the Google classification to be wrong in the past. So I think it is better to find a term that is unique for the language, I don't know any such term for Rust though.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:29 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:23:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are
 tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results
 considerably.
Not really, you look at trends over time not absolutes.
Okay, I see, it's just percentage of the highest value. To make any kind of qualitative judgements, it would be necessary to at least have a hint for the absolute numbers.
 Results using Google's categorization instead:
I have found the Google classification to be wrong in the past.
I have no doubt about that!
 So I think it is better to find a term that is unique for the language,
 I don't know any such term for Rust though.
And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If you look at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming language", "D language", "D programming", none of them seems to correlate with events such as the date of first publication, version 1.000, version 2.000, the conferences etc.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:43:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If 
 you look at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming 
 language", "D language", "D programming", none of them seems to 
 correlate with events such as the date of first publication, 
 version 1.000, version 2.000, the conferences etc.
You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" has only been in used in recent years and probably only by invested users. It is difficult to find terms for "D" that have enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling trend. While "dlang" is more stable.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:53:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably 
 only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, 
 july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling 
 trend. While "dlang" is more stable.
The cause of the biggest spike of interest, january 2007: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/07/01/01/2041256/the-d-programming-language-version-10
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:43:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If you look
 at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming language", "D
 language", "D programming", none of them seems to correlate with
 events such as the date of first publication, version 1.000, version
 2.000, the conferences etc.
You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" has only been in used in recent years and probably only by invested users. It is difficult to find terms for "D" that have enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling trend. While "dlang" is more stable.
I agree with this in general, but the uncertainty is still far to high to be able to make comparisons between languages. Rough trends maybe. BTW, this one (using the "programming" category) looks like it could be somewhat neutral: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=d%20language%2C%20rust%20language%2C%20go%20language%2C%20swift%20language&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 At least it shows the characteristic spikes for each language and the related searches look reasonable. But the popularity of D pre-2007 looks odd, and with such a bias it's impossible to read anything out of the more recent numbers (in terms of absolute value) without wishful thinking.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 09:09:20 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 At least it shows the characteristic spikes for each language 
 and the related searches look reasonable. But the popularity of 
 D pre-2007 looks odd, and with such a bias it's impossible to 
 read anything out of the more recent numbers (in terms of 
 absolute value) without wishful thinking.
Yes, I think counting significant libraries/framworks and github activity provide better absolute measurements for comparable languages (Go, Rust, D), but doesn't work for enterprise languages. Still, the trends says something about the future of competing languages, so if one want to lay down a strategy it can be useful. And it also can tell us something about what events leads to increased/falling interest.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply WebFreak001 <janju007 web.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 09:09:20 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 BTW, this one (using the "programming" category) looks like it 
 could be somewhat neutral: 
 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=d%20language%2C%20rust%20language%2C%20go%20language%2C%20swift%20language&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1
Combining that with the categories now gives a graph which looks very likely to be correct: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=%2Fm%2F01kbt7%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:43:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
 D has been around the corner for a D-ecade.
I laughed.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:34:09 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote:
 Combining that with the categories now gives a graph which 
 looks very likely to be correct:

 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=%2Fm%2F01kbt7%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1
That would make D very popular in China and Russia, compared to the US. Maybe it is, I don't know.
Feb 03 2016
parent WebFreak001 <janju007 web.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:41:01 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 That would make D very popular in China and Russia, compared to 
 the US. Maybe it is, I don't know.
It puts Japan on the first place. Considering how the #dlang twitter hashtag looks like this could be very true.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:53:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" 
 has only been in used in recent years and probably only by 
 invested users. It is difficult to find terms for "D" that have 
 enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably 
 only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, 
 july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling 
 trend. While "dlang" is more stable.
I never search dlang. I typically search d language
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:23 schrieb Sönke Ludwig:
 Am 03.02.2016 um 08:45 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.
I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.
Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results considerably. Results using Google's categorization instead: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F01kbt7&date=1%2F2009%2085m&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 Those are still the same tiny numbers, though, so there's really not much to infer from this.
So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches in January 2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster tools show 235 klicks on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in the same timeframe (12 clicks for "dlang"). So the question is what those Google Trend numbers actually show, it can't be the total amount of searches.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:34:47 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
 So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches 
 in January 2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster 
 tools show 235 klicks on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in the 
 same timeframe (12 clicks for "dlang"). So the question is what 
 those Google Trend numbers actually show, it can't be the total 
 amount of searches.
I believe it is percentage relative to the peak of the graph? But the heuristics for the aggregated Google classification is very wrong, maybe they put more effort into the big languages like Java and C++? I've previously seen "java d compiler" classified as related to "d programming language".
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:40:54 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:34:47 UTC, Sönke Ludwig 
 wrote:
 So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches 
 in January 2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster 
 tools show 235 klicks on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in 
 the same timeframe (12 clicks for "dlang"). So the question is 
 what those Google Trend numbers actually show, it can't be the 
 total amount of searches.
I believe it is percentage relative to the peak of the graph?
If you hover over the question mark in the circle you get this: «Numbers represent search interest relative to the highest point on the chart. If, at most,10% of searches for the given region and time frame were for "pizza," we'd consider this 100. This doesn't convey absolute search volume. Learn more»
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch> writes:
Ola Fosheim Grøstad <ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang gmail.com> wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
 
 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.
I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.
Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries. Tobi
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 16:45:02 UTC, Tobias Müller 
wrote:
 Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries.
Tiobe is measuring signal + lots of noise.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 17:16:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 16:45:02 UTC, Tobias Müller 
 wrote:
 Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries.
Tiobe is measuring signal + lots of noise.
So like google trends. Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 17:43:59 UTC, bubbasaur wrote:
 So like google trends.
All quantitative studies that are done without consideration suffers from this. It isn't a property of Google Trends, but of the analytical performance of the person using it...
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
[...]
 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.
Oh, I am sure I caused it myself, I am new on D and all my searching for it and than Bang ! :-) So, don't try to understand Tiobe, just be happy D is a new entry for top 20, and work hard to improve DMD, GDC, LDC, DUB, vibe.d etc... to make this real cool programming experience open for more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster computers becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers doing the job, where a real alternative is around the corner: D.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:41:40 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:
 open for more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster 
 computers becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers 
 doing the job, where a real alternative is around the corner: D.
D has been around the corner for a D-ecade. The corner is constantly moving so that is obviously not a winning strategy.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:43:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:41:40 UTC, Martin 
 Tschierschke wrote:
 open for more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster 
 computers becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers 
 doing the job, where a real alternative is around the corner: 
 D.
D has been around the corner for a D-ecade. The corner is constantly moving so that is obviously not a winning strategy.
If something is around the corner, you must know! So I got it via this: http://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/Programmiersprache-D-Compiler-ist-jetzt-selbst-in-D-geschrieben-2869589.html The most read IT News Ticker in Germany, pointing to D, saying that the D compiler now is written in D, and what made me interested, the reference to C++ and Ruby. So I started to read Wikipedia and in the end I gave it a try. What about making a special voting list/page, where every one registered to the forum, can put in, why he/she is using D and vote for other arguments giving + or maybe - points. And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic of D (language or environemt) need to be improved most?
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:06:30 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:
 If something is around the corner, you must know!
There are many corners. Some, like the corner of compiled languages with automatic memory management and high level features have moved a lot in the past few years (Swift and Go). It is gone. There is no way for D to catch up with Swift and Go. The other corner, taken by C, C++ and now also Rust, moves a lot slower and is in some areas incapable of moving. So I think the current focus on interfacing with C++ is the right focus, just keep focused on it. D needs to reach parity with common C++ features and then do it better across the board. C++ is basically incapable of undoing past bad design decisions. D also have baggage, but D is fortunate enough to have commercial users who have clearly stated that they welcome breaking changes, so D can thankfully get rid of bad design choices. C++ cannot break existing code, and Rust has gone down a trail of semantics that leads to complicated compiler design. That's to D's advantage, if D avoid going down similar complicated routes (unfortunately some DIPs suggests otherwise). There's lots of potential there if the D designers stay focused on that target and take the fast path (avoid convoluted semantics and compiler requirements).
 And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic 
 of D (language or environemt) need to be improved most?
The historical challenge for D is a tendency to spread out. Voting is no good, it takes away focus. Then you are back to hunting down many corners, and D will remain one step behind.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:21:05 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:06:30 UTC, Martin 
 Tschierschke wrote:
 If something is around the corner, you must know!
There are many corners. Some, like the corner of compiled languages with automatic memory management and high level features have moved a lot in the past few years (Swift and Go). It is gone. There is no way for D to catch up with Swift and Go.
May be, I did not start to learn anything about these languages yet, so I just looked on the Wikipedia pages, and I am not convinced. Why? Syntax not C compatible, but for me this is a very strong argument, because everybody is defining his own similar elements and after "learning" some Languages (Basic,Z80Asm,Pascal,Comal,Prolog,(x86Asm),C,C++,Perl,Php,Ruby (RoR)) I am quite happy, that D offers a 'known' syntax. And the opportunity to use it for scripting - compiling very fast (#!-rdmd Execution). By learning D, I can write a super fast web applications (vibe.d) + stand alone programs for any purpose and even do scripting tasks. Is there any other language candidate offering the same?
 The other corner, taken by C, C++ and now also Rust, moves a 
 lot slower and is in some areas incapable of moving. So I think 
 the current focus on interfacing with C++ is the right focus, 
 just keep focused on it. D needs to reach parity with common 
 C++ features and then do it better across the board.
Sounds right. [...]
 And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic 
 of D (language or environment) need to be improved most?
The historical challenge for D is a tendency to spread out. Voting is no good, it takes away focus. Then you are back to hunting down many corners, and D will remain one step behind.
The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements really needed, to get this focus. I think, it is not so useful, that there are already min. 4 different DUB modules to access MySQL/MariaDB).
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:14:39 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:
 Why? Syntax not C compatible, but for me this is a very strong 
 argument, because everybody is defining his own similar 
 elements and after "learning" some  Languages 
 (Basic,Z80Asm,Pascal,Comal,Prolog,(x86Asm),C,C++,Perl,Php,Ruby 
 (RoR))
 I am quite happy, that D offers a 'known' syntax.
What is considered a "known" syntax changes over time though. You know Comal? Isn't that a danish language that never got much traction outside Denmark? I remember reading danish computer magazines in the late 80s that devoted many pages to it.
 By learning D, I can write a super fast web applications 
 (vibe.d) +
 stand alone programs for any purpose and even do scripting 
 tasks.

 Is there any other language candidate offering the same?
Not if you want the kind of C++ style metaprogramming that D offers. Go is ok for web applications, Python is ok for scripting; I am inclined to use those for web as they are supported by Google Cloud. If you want to do everything with one language D might be closer. I personally don't see much advantage in using one language for everything, but some people see it as a major benefit.
 The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements 
 really needed, to get this focus.
If the D community wasn't spread out: economic/scientific, games, web, hobby, professional, educated, non-educated... There tends to be contention between those that want to see D strive to become a potent system level programming language and those that want to see D become a convenient compiled scripting language. Trying to move in both directions at the same time is bound to lead to a net slow down in progress IMHO.
 I think, it is not so useful, that there are already min. 4 
 different DUB modules to access MySQL/MariaDB).
The D eco system suffers a bit from having eager programmers, but not enough of them, so you have all these libraries that are created, but not polished and maintained.
Feb 03 2016
parent Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:34:26 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
[..]
 You know Comal? Isn't that a danish language that never got 
 much traction outside Denmark? I remember reading danish 
 computer magazines in the late 80s that devoted many pages to 
 it.
Comal, Yes, it was one of our learning languages in School...~1984? [...]
 The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements 
 really needed, to get this focus.
If the D community wasn't spread out: economic/scientific, games, web, hobby, professional, educated, non-educated... There tends to be contention between those that want to see D strive to become a potent system level programming language and those that want to see D become a convenient compiled scripting language. Trying to move in both directions at the same time is bound to lead to a net slow down in progress IMHO.
Ok.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.
Well, people who observe TIOBE index knew this is going to happen. Did we? :)
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
Very good, and different from the other guy I think this list is very reasonable, just look the top languages and their positions and I agree. So guys let's celebrate this! :) Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply rsw0x <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.
Doesn't matter if Tiobe is wrong or not, being in the top 20 is *good* for D because a lot of people do indeed use Tiobe. Any exposure = good exposure.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:09:23 UTC, rsw0x wrote:
 Doesn't matter if Tiobe is wrong or not, being in the top 20 is 
 *good* for D because a lot of people do indeed use Tiobe.
 Any exposure = good exposure.
That's kinda like saying that winning 6 out of 6 coin-flips is undeniably good for Clinton, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Depends on the reader. But it is undeniably bad for Clinton's campaign if they think they can rest on their laurels and win the race by chance. If we take a look at the most voted topics on StackOverflow, languages like C++, Rust and Go have "language technical" questions, but for D the list is dominated by questions related to credibility, many asking for a comparison of D to C++. So clearly D can most likely gain a lot from addressing aspects that people care about. Top votes for D on StackOverflow: 149 votes 32k views C++ versus D [closed] Is the D language a credible alternative to Java and C++? What will it take to become a credible alternative? Should I bother learning it? 137 votes 38k views Why isn't the 'D' language picking up? [closed] Anybody using language 'D'? Why isn't it more popular? 126 votes 36k views D Programming Language in the real world? [closed] Is anyone out there using D for real world applications? If so, what are you using it for? I can't seem to find anything big on the web written in D. 108 votes 23k views How fast is D compared to C++? I like some features of D, but would be interested if they come with a runtime penalty? To compare, I implemented a simple program that computes scalar products of many short vectors both in C++ and ... 76 votes 8k views What are the differences between concepts and template constraints? I want to know what are the semantic differences between the C++ full concepts proposal and template constraints (for instance, constraints as appeared in Dlang or the new concepts-lite proposal for .. 69 votes 15k views Why 0.1 + 0.2 == 0.3 in D? assert(0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3); 69 votes 3k views To GC or Not To GC I've recently seen two really nice and educating languages talks: This first one by Herb Sutter, presents all the nice and cool features of C++0x, why C++'s future seems brighter than ever, and how ...
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:29:00 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 ...
Man, this is all matter of opinion and I sincerely respect yours, but you're always being pessimistic, every good news here and I saw you undermining the effect. I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on Reddit and people talk about for good or worst. Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
 I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on 
 Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.
Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, because they had higher expectations. If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. Which D cannot deliver. Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to resentment. What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations and goals.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent rsw0x <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
 I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on 
 Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.
Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, because they had higher expectations. If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. Which D cannot deliver. Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to resentment. What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations and goals.
None of those things happen without users, and being high on tiobe gets users. The D community is stretched incredibly thin already.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 ...
 Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the 
 forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, 
 lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad 
 impression, because they had higher expectations.
Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools but the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or have restrictions whatever.
 If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the 
 current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of 
 Swift. Which D cannot deliver.
Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D and write new tools that is lacking right now? Sorry but this is not like be realistic you're being too much pessimistic. Let the river take it's course. :) Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:48:48 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
 Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools 
 but the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or 
 have restrictions whatever.
It is possible to position a language as a focused niche alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression because my initial expectations were low. That meant I had low resistance to downloading D again a few years later, and so on. So, even if people are leaving, it is important that they leave without resentment, after all if they were willing to give D a spin once, they might be willing to spin it up a few more times later on. Feel good.
 Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D 
 and write new tools that is lacking right now?
They could, but are they likely to? The most likely group to do system level programming are system level programmers, so realistic articles, presentations and talks that make D look technically interesting are more likely to win them over. As the "most voted topics" on StackOverflow shows, D has a perceived credibility problem. Being honest and realistic is the best way to address that, IMO. Perpetrating the idea that D is as big as Swift just hurts D's credibility.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 20:41:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
 It is possible to position a language as a focused niche 
 alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what 
 attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek 
 that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I 
 realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression 
 because my initial expectations were low.
[...]
Alright, you win, I'm going to buy some bottles of whisky and play blues all night to atone for the dreary thought of hords of users coming to see what is done here. It's not as if we were responsible for the TIOBE ranking, but we sure are responsible for giving them hope in a new, how hopelessly uncomplete language that we love. They'll harass the developers with new uncovered issues and criticate their choices. They'll fill the General section of the forum with questions meant for Learn. They'll talk about C++ like never before and maybe even about Rust or Go. The most clement ones will leave but not without a dreadful blog post pointing at D's defects. The real problem will be with the other ones, those who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, others by sheer curiosity. They'll ask about how they can help just to see our aimless messages unable to guide them to do anything useful. You're right, gaining unwanted attention really is a nightmare. Oh, quick, a drink, I think I hear the first of them. They're coming... D's DoomsDay.
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 23:08:19 UTC, cym13 wrote:
 defects. The real problem will be with the other ones, those 
 who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, others by 
 sheer curiosity.
Actually, yes. I do think getting aiming for more demanding users at this point is a problem as I want to see breaking changes implemented. I don't think having a large user base of programmers is an advantage, as that will lead to protests against changes and improvements that could make D a real contender.
Feb 04 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 02/03/2016 02:06 AM, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.
Thanks for the info. Probably not worth posting to reddit, but I did post it on FB and Twitter: https://facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/1220250531321959 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/694948280858492928 Andrei
Feb 03 2016
parent reply yawniek <dlang srtnwz.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:36:35 UTC, Andrei 
Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 02/03/2016 02:06 AM, cym13 wrote:
 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it
 sure will be great for its image.
Thanks for the info. Probably not worth posting to reddit, but I did post it on FB and Twitter: https://facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/1220250531321959 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/694948280858492928 Andrei
i hate to spoil the party but: http://donnemartin.com/viz/pages/2015
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 02/03/2016 01:40 PM, yawniek wrote:
 i hate to spoil the party
What party? -- Andrei
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:40:30 UTC, yawniek wrote:
 i hate to spoil the party but:
 http://donnemartin.com/viz/pages/2015
What is that supposed to mean? This tool doesn't even track D, how could it show any meaningful comparison with other languages?
Feb 03 2016