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digitalmars.D - Swift is coming, Swift is coming

reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
A Wired article about Swift coming to the server, particularly 
after the imminent open-sourcing, that also mentions D as an 
alternative, especially since it's written by the same guy who 
wrote about D for Wired last year:

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/apples-swift-ios-programming-language-is-being-remade-for-data-centers/

Will be interesting to see how Swift does, a good natural 
experiment for those pushing D to focus on one niche before 
expanding, as Swift is doing really well on one of the most 
important development platforms today, iOS, before expanding onto 
the server.  Of course, Apple is unlikely to really push it on 
the server, other than open-sourcing and accepting patches, so 
they have a built-in excuse if it doesn't do well. ;)
Nov 24 2015
next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 17:59:35 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 Will be interesting to see how Swift does


Considering it won't be available for Windows, I'd guess not very 
well and it will remain a niche language until it does. There's a 
reason D shot up in popularity after it started to support 
windows more thoroughly.

Sure you can say that since it will be open source, people can 
create Windows versions. But without Apple merging changes 
upstream (which they have never said they would do) I really 
don't see those efforts lasting long before people realize the 
effort involved probably isn't worth it.
Nov 24 2015
parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 21:20:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 17:59:35 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 Will be interesting to see how Swift does


 Considering it won't be available for Windows, I'd guess not 
 very well and it will remain a niche language until it does.


I think it's niche languages that are developed first on Windows, 
;) as there's a lot more money going towards new app development 
for iOS these days.  Popular mobile apps like Snapchat do not 
even bother developing for Windows _or_ the web (I just had to 
look that up, as I'd never use such an app, just what I'd heard 
from others ;) ), so that you cannot even _use_ them on Windows.  
Imagine that!


 There's a reason D shot up in popularity after it started to 
 support windows more thoroughly.


This is a common misconception, but D was initially developed and 
released _on_ Windows 15 years ago, as Walter is a Windows guy.  
It did not add linux support till a couple years later:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog1.html#new063

Yes, Win64 support came later than linux/x64: blame Microsoft's 
closed toolchain and proprietary, undocumented formats for that.  
Perhaps they're learning their lesson with their recent 
open-sourcing of their CV/PDB debug format.


 Sure you can say that since it will be open source, people can 
 create Windows versions. But without Apple merging changes 
 upstream (which they have never said they would do) I really 
 don't see those efforts lasting long before people realize the 
 effort involved probably isn't worth it.


Yeah, I assumed they'd accept patches since they do for 
llvm/clang, and Swift comes from that umbrella rather than their 
other open-source projects that tend to just code dump 
occasionally.
Nov 25 2015
parent Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 08:55:28 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 There's a reason D shot up in popularity after it started to 
 support windows more thoroughly.


 This is a common misconception, but D was initially developed 
 and released _on_ Windows 15 years ago, as Walter is a Windows 
 guy.  It did not add linux support till a couple years later:

 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog1.html#new063


I did say "more thoroughly" on purpose :)
Nov 25 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 17:59:35 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 A Wired article about Swift coming to the server, particularly 
 after the imminent open-sourcing, that also mentions D as an 
 alternative, especially since it's written by the same guy who 
 wrote about D for Wired last year:

 http://www.wired.com/2015/11/apples-swift-ios-programming-language-is-being-remade-for-data-centers/

 Will be interesting to see how Swift does, a good natural 
 experiment for those pushing D to focus on one niche before 
 expanding, as Swift is doing really well on one of the most 
 important development platforms today, iOS, before expanding 
 onto the server.  Of course, Apple is unlikely to really push 
 it on the server, other than open-sourcing and accepting 
 patches, so they have a built-in excuse if it doesn't do well. 
 ;)


I don't know Swift well enough to comment on its features or 
merits, but it is naturally a success on iOS, because loads of 
people develop for iOS and sooner or later Apple's new favorite 
child will get everybody's attention. Server side, hm, I don't 
know. Will it run on Linux? How common are Apple servers? As far 
as I know, most server systems are Linux/Unix or Windows. That 
would make Swift a niche language on niche servers, wouldn't it :)

It's nice, though, that D was mentioned in an Apple related 
article.
Nov 25 2015
parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:06:14 UTC, Chris wrote:

 I don't know Swift well enough to comment on its features or 
 merits, but it is naturally a success on iOS, because loads of 
 people develop for iOS and sooner or later Apple's new favorite 
 child will get everybody's attention. Server side, hm, I don't 
 know. Will it run on Linux? How common are Apple servers? As 
 far as I know, most server systems are Linux/Unix or Windows. 
 That would make Swift a niche language on niche servers, 
 wouldn't it :)


Apple announced earlier this year that Swift will be ported to 
linux and open-sourced, so yes, it will.


 It's nice, though, that D was mentioned in an Apple related 
 article.


It also mentions Go and Rust as alternatives.
Nov 25 2015
parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:24:14 UTC, Joakim wrote:


 Apple announced earlier this year that Swift will be ported to 
 linux and open-sourced, so yes, it will.


Then I suppose that companies who use Linux servers and also 
develop for iOS may adopt it.

However, there are two factors to be considered.

1) it might not be worth the hassle to use swift on the server. 
If you also cater for Android etc., you would either lock 
yourself in or have to maintain two systems.

2) Linux people are naturally skeptical of anything coming from a 
big company. What if the Linux version always lags behind, 
because it's not top priority? What if certain new features are 
Apple only (to give their own servers an advantage)? What if this 
causes a mess of Linux patches and 3rd party libraries?

Server Swift might really end up as a niche within a niche.


 It also mentions Go and Rust as alternatives.


You would expect that alright, but D mentioned together with the 
marketing giants Apple and Google? That's nice. In this way 
people will read about Swift and hear "D" as well.
Nov 25 2015
parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:38:52 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:24:14 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 Apple announced earlier this year that Swift will be ported to 
 linux and open-sourced, so yes, it will.


 Then I suppose that companies who use Linux servers and also 
 develop for iOS may adopt it.


Or just anybody deploying to linux.


 However, there are two factors to be considered.

 1) it might not be worth the hassle to use swift on the server. 
 If you also cater for Android etc., you would either lock 
 yourself in or have to maintain two systems.


Only if you're counting the Android device, you could run Swift 
on iOS and the server without a problem.  And it won't be long 
before Swift is ported to Android too, as linux support is most 
of what's needed, so you'd only need Java for the native Android 
UI and Java-only APIs, ie the frontend of your Android app.


 2) Linux people are naturally skeptical of anything coming from 
 a big company. What if the Linux version always lags behind, 
 because it's not top priority? What if certain new features are 
 Apple only (to give their own servers an advantage)? What if 
 this causes a mess of Linux patches and 3rd party libraries?


I think the linux server crowd is much bigger than that old 
corporate-doubting handful these days.  I doubt Apple has any 
plans to push it as a server option, beyond porting it to linux, 
so I don't see them disadvantaging linux.  It will be up to third 
parties like the company mentioned in the article to develop it 
as a real server alternative.


 Server Swift might really end up as a niche within a niche.


Or it might end up becoming really popular, as a compiled, modern 
language that can be used on mobile and the server.

I don't really care how Swift does or follow it, but it will be 
competition for D, as it has generics, unlike Go, and doesn't 
have Rust's unfamiliar syntax or stringent emphasis on memory 
safety.  It's an up-and-coming competitor for D people to watch 
out for.
Nov 25 2015
next sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 16:02:18 UTC, Joakim wrote:

[snip]


 Server Swift might really end up as a niche within a niche.


 Or it might end up becoming really popular, as a compiled, 
 modern language that can be used on mobile and the server.

 I don't really care how Swift does or follow it, but it will be 
 competition for D, as it has generics, unlike Go, and doesn't 
 have Rust's unfamiliar syntax or stringent emphasis on memory 
 safety.  It's an up-and-coming competitor for D people to watch 
 out for.


With Apple behind it, it might become popular, but not 
necessarily in the OSS community. What if Apple started to make 
their own Apple specific extensions that are not open sourced and 
have to be backengineered on Linux. Then Swift would end up like 
OpenStep, wouldn't it?
Nov 25 2015
parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 16:17:45 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 16:02:18 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 [snip]


 Server Swift might really end up as a niche within a niche.


 Or it might end up becoming really popular, as a compiled, 
 modern language that can be used on mobile and the server.

 I don't really care how Swift does or follow it, but it will 
 be competition for D, as it has generics, unlike Go, and 
 doesn't have Rust's unfamiliar syntax or stringent emphasis on 
 memory safety.  It's an up-and-coming competitor for D people 
 to watch out for.


 With Apple behind it, it might become popular, but not 
 necessarily in the OSS community. What if Apple started to make 
 their own Apple specific extensions that are not open sourced 
 and have to be backengineered on Linux. Then Swift would end up 
 like OpenStep, wouldn't it?


I don't see Apple doing all that stuff nowadays.  This move to 
open-source Swift and port it to linux seems driven by the llvm 
devs, I doubt the company really cares.  Apple open-sourced their 
ARM64 backend for llvm last year, despite it being better than 
the incomplete OSS backend being worked on in llvm and providing 
a competitive advantage for their 64-bit ARM devices, so that I 
can now use it for Android too.  Of course, there are a _lot_ 
less Android/Aarch64 devices than iOS.

Apple really had no incentive to do that from a competitive 
standpoint, other than maybe the llvm devs at Apple not wanting 
to maintain two Aarch64 backends.  Yet, they did it anyway.  I 
don't think they really care about keeping Swift to themselves 
when they're the largest company on the planet and are minting 
$53 billion in profits a year!  For context, that's only $15 
billion less than google's entire revenue over the last year, ie 
their profits alone are almost all much as all the money google 
brought in.

I don't think they're sitting around thinking about how to make a 
couple million off Swift. ;)
Nov 25 2015
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2015-11-25 17:40, Joakim wrote:


 I don't see Apple doing all that stuff nowadays.  This move to
 open-source Swift and port it to linux seems driven by the llvm devs, I
 doubt the company really cares.  Apple open-sourced their ARM64 backend
 for llvm last year, despite it being better than the incomplete OSS
 backend being worked on in llvm and providing a competitive advantage
 for their 64-bit ARM devices, so that I can now use it for Android too.
 Of course, there are a _lot_ less Android/Aarch64 devices than iOS.


But I also doubt that they will try very hard. The ARM64 backend, as you 
mentioned, was available and in use by Apple long before it was pushed 
upstream. Same thing with many other features in Clang and LLVM. Take 
null-ability and Objective-C generics. Apple had an implementation ready 
and adopt their whole (most of?) SDK to use these features before they 
were pushed upstream.

Also, take a look at the Windows support as an example, which was poorly 
supported by Clang/LLVM. I don't think Apple has tried a tiny bit at all 
to improve the Clang/LLVM support for Windows.

I'm guessing the only reason why they will release a Linux port is 
because OS X and Linux are fairly similar, making this small(er) effort.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 25 2015
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 26 November 2015 at 07:40:13 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:

 I'm guessing the only reason why they will release a Linux port 
 is because OS X and Linux are fairly similar, making this 
 small(er) effort.


Maybe also because of NextStep/GNUStep etc being available on 
Linux. OS-X gets lots of sofware from the unix world (e.g. 
macports), so they are better off with a stronger Linux than a 
stronger Windows.
Nov 26 2015
prev sibling parent Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Thursday, 26 November 2015 at 07:40:13 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:

 On 2015-11-25 17:40, Joakim wrote:


 I don't see Apple doing all that stuff nowadays.  This move to
 open-source Swift and port it to linux seems driven by the 
 llvm devs, I
 doubt the company really cares.  Apple open-sourced their 
 ARM64 backend
 for llvm last year, despite it being better than the 
 incomplete OSS
 backend being worked on in llvm and providing a competitive 
 advantage
 for their 64-bit ARM devices, so that I can now use it for 
 Android too.
 Of course, there are a _lot_ less Android/Aarch64 devices than 
 iOS.


 But I also doubt that they will try very hard. The ARM64 
 backend, as you mentioned, was available and in use by Apple 
 long before it was pushed upstream. Same thing with many other 
 features in Clang and LLVM. Take null-ability and Objective-C 
 generics. Apple had an implementation ready and adopt their 
 whole (most of?) SDK to use these features before they were 
 pushed upstream.


Right, my point was that it was all open-sourced and pushed 
upstream eventually.


 Also, take a look at the Windows support as an example, which 
 was poorly supported by Clang/LLVM. I don't think Apple has 
 tried a tiny bit at all to improve the Clang/LLVM support for 
 Windows.


Why should they, if they're not using it?  It's a community 
project, anybody can contribute, and it appears that Microsoft is 
now doing so.


 I'm guessing the only reason why they will release a Linux port 
 is because OS X and Linux are fairly similar, making this 
 small(er) effort.


Yes, it seems driven by the llvm devs, but who knows, maybe they 
run iCloud on linux? ;)

On Thursday, 26 November 2015 at 10:17:10 UTC, Thiez wrote:

 On Thursday, 26 November 2015 at 06:14:47 UTC, Joakim wrote:


 as they're much older and won't attract the same users.  
 Certainly not Java, with how verbose it is, haven't looked at 

 towards AoT compilation will certainly help keep those 
 languages relevant, so good for them.




 improvements over the years, and is currently at version 6.


I looked that up after I wrote it, as that's what I thought and 


D did and was publicized a lot more, so it seemed older to me.
Nov 26 2015
prev sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 16:02:18 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:38:52 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:24:14 UTC, Joakim wrote:




 I don't really care how Swift does or follow it, but it will be 
 competition for D, as it has generics, unlike Go, and doesn't 
 have Rust's unfamiliar syntax or stringent emphasis on memory 
 safety.  It's an up-and-coming competitor for D people to watch 
 out for.


Given that .NET now is being available on UNIX, with .NET Native 
support already announced at the recent Connect() event and 





- ref types on local scope and as return values
- slices
- more are being evaluated

Similarly Java with the upcoming value types, new FFI and AOT 
compiler on the reference JDK.

I would advise not to look only at Swift.

--
Paulo



 Nov 25 2015



  parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st>  writes:


On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 19:27:12 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 16:02:18 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:38:52 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Wednesday, 25 November 2015 at 10:24:14 UTC, Joakim wrote:




 I don't really care how Swift does or follow it, but it will 
 be competition for D, as it has generics, unlike Go, and 
 doesn't have Rust's unfamiliar syntax or stringent emphasis on 
 memory safety.  It's an up-and-coming competitor for D people 
 to watch out for.


 Given that .NET now is being available on UNIX, with .NET 
 Native support already announced at the recent Connect() event 





 - ref types on local scope and as return values
 - slices
 - more are being evaluated

 Similarly Java with the upcoming value types, new FFI and AOT 
 compiler on the reference JDK.

 I would advise not to look only at Swift.



they're much older and won't attract the same users.  Certainly 

But for those with legacy codebases, those moves towards AoT 
compilation will certainly help keep those languages relevant, so 
good for them.



 Nov 25 2015



  parent reply Thiez <thiezz gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 26 November 2015 at 06:14:47 UTC, Joakim wrote:


 they're much older and won't attract the same users.  Certainly 

 much.  But for those with legacy codebases, those moves towards 
 AoT compilation will certainly help keep those languages 
 relevant, so good for them.




improvements over the years, and is currently at version 6.



 Nov 26 2015



  parent  Kagamin <spam here.lot>  writes:



stabilizes. I wonder if it's right strategy or D just needs a 
period of stabilization to resolve implementation bugs.



 Nov 27 2015



prev sibling next sibling parent  Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com>  writes:


I'm too lazy to find a better post to say this about OSX but:
I'm pretty sure Apple no longer make server hardware.

Hint, https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/os-x-server/id883878097?mt=12
It's literally an app now.



 Nov 25 2015



prev sibling next sibling parent  ponce <contact gamesfrommars.fr>  writes:


On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 17:59:35 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 A Wired article about Swift coming to the server, particularly 
 after the imminent open-sourcing, that also mentions D as an 
 alternative, especially since it's written by the same guy who 
 wrote about D for Wired last year:

 http://www.wired.com/2015/11/apples-swift-ios-programming-language-is-being-remade-for-data-centers/

 Will be interesting to see how Swift does, a good natural 
 experiment for those pushing D to focus on one niche before 
 expanding, as Swift is doing really well on one of the most 
 important development platforms today, iOS, before expanding 
 onto the server.  Of course, Apple is unlikely to really push 
 it on the server, other than open-sourcing and accepting 
 patches, so they have a built-in excuse if it doesn't do well. 
 ;)


Maybe we have a good opportunity to compete with Swift at home.

Avoiding XCode, not being tied to a particular SDK, being able to 
target very ancient systems are some of the pluses I've found 
when using D with OS X.
I'd bet using D for iOS can entail similar gains, and avoid being 
tied to an Apple language.



 Nov 25 2015



prev sibling  parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st>  writes:


On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 at 17:59:35 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 A Wired article about Swift coming to the server, particularly 
 after the imminent open-sourcing, that also mentions D as an 
 alternative, especially since it's written by the same guy who 
 wrote about D for Wired last year:

 http://www.wired.com/2015/11/apples-swift-ios-programming-language-is-being-remade-for-data-centers/

 Will be interesting to see how Swift does, a good natural 
 experiment for those pushing D to focus on one niche before 
 expanding, as Swift is doing really well on one of the most 
 important development platforms today, iOS, before expanding 
 onto the server.  Of course, Apple is unlikely to really push 
 it on the server, other than open-sourcing and accepting 
 patches, so they have a built-in excuse if it doesn't do well. 
 ;)


Pretty much what we guessed: they're expanding the Swift platform 
but Apple is not going to develop for Windows/Android, though 
others are free to do so -

"In open-sourcing Swift, Apple has two main goals in mind. The 
first and most obvious is to make Swift code more portable and 
versatile, enabling its use in projects outside of apps for 
Apple’s platforms.

The company’s long-term vision is even more ambitious. “We think 
[Swift] is how really everyone should be programming for the next 
20 years,” Federighi told Ars. “We think it’s the next major 
programming language.

“A number of developers, including enterprise developers like 
IBM, very early on as they began developing their mobile 
applications in Swift, really wanted to be able to take the 
talents that their developers were developing and even some of 
the code and be able to deploy it in the cloud, for instance,” 
Federighi continued. “We thought the best way [to enable that], 
ultimately, was open source.”

The other goal is educational: when developers put time into 
learning Swift (or when educators take the time to teach it), 
Apple wants those skills to be more broadly applicable.

“We’re working with educators, and many professors are very 
interested in teaching Swift because it’s such an expressive 
language that’s such a great way to introduce all sorts of 
programming concepts,” Federighi said. “And enabling it as open 
source makes it possible for them to incorporate Swift really as 
part of the core curriculum.”

When we spoke with developers about the first year of Swift back 
in June, Swift’s teachability was definitely a major selling 
point. As useful as Swift might be to communicate programming 
ideas, it’s ultimately more useful to be able to take that 
knowledge and use it in multiple places."
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2015/12/craig-federighi-talks-open-source-swift-and-whats-coming-in-version-3-0/



 Dec 06 2015



  parent  Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Mon, 2015-12-07 at 07:22 +0000, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:

=20


[=E2=80=A6]

 When we spoke with developers about the first year of Swift back=20
 in June, Swift=E2=80=99s teachability was definitely a major selling=20
 point. As useful as Swift might be to communicate programming=20
 ideas, it=E2=80=99s ultimately more useful to be able to take that=20
 knowledge and use it in multiple places."
 http://arstechnica.com/apple/2015/12/craig-federighi-talks-open-sourc
 e-swift-and-whats-coming-in-version-3-0/


They could at least have fully recognized that Python has shown them
the way on this.

--=20
Russel.
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=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder



 Dec 11 2015