digitalmars.D - Spotted on twitter: Rust user enthusiastically blogs about moving to D
- Joakim (1/1) Mar 06 2017 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/
- qznc (11/12) Mar 07 2017 "A much much safer language than C++ while being much more
- XavierAP (5/9) Mar 07 2017 On the contrary, he does mention D's safety and memory management
- bachmeier (6/13) Mar 07 2017 D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even
- Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= (3/8) Mar 07 2017 It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a
- Meta (4/12) Mar 07 2017 What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping
- Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= (2/4) Mar 07 2017 Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.
- Guillaume Piolat (4/8) Mar 07 2017 Like with pointers, ownership doesn't have to be encoded in the
- Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= (11/20) Mar 07 2017 One can always work around misguided high level features with
- H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d (13/22) Mar 07 2017 That's an opinion.
- bachmeier (7/15) Mar 07 2017 Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum
- thedeemon (6/12) Mar 07 2017 I think ATS language is a contradiction here, it combines max
- Yuxuan Shui (2/14) Mar 08 2017 Performance, Safety and Productivity. You can only choose two.
- Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) (8/16) Mar 07 2017 I found it horribly scary at first myself, but what surprised me is that...
- Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= (4/7) Mar 07 2017 Just wait till you use a library that added a sentinel at the end
- Wyatt (6/7) Mar 07 2017 I like the bit in the comments where he says this:
- deadalnix (4/11) Mar 08 2017 "Beautiful! The code probably deserves a bit of explanation – in
- Jack Stouffer (10/14) Mar 07 2017 This reenforces my estimation that the most persuasive feature of
- Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) (5/7) Mar 07 2017 That surprised me too. My impression is that us D community folks
- deadalnix (4/8) Mar 08 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg
- Jack Stouffer (10/14) Mar 08 2017 Oh, you and I travel in the same circles (*those* subreddits), I
- Chris (7/14) Mar 08 2017 From the video:
- XavierAP (4/9) Mar 08 2017 LOL these kids could use some experience writing C for Linus
- realdonaldtrump (5/15) Mar 08 2017 The political correctness is one of the major things wrong with
- sarn (1/1) Mar 08 2017 PSA: please don't feed the trolls.
- Chris (8/15) Mar 08 2017 That's the beauty of D. You can get shit done in an elegant and
- Soulsbane (6/7) Mar 07 2017 Very welcoming and helpful community that actually focuses on the
- =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= (5/7) Mar 07 2017 The author had opened the following thread:
- Soulsbane (2/11) Mar 07 2017 Ah, thanks for the link Ali!
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/"A much much safer language than C++ while being much more programmer-friendly than Rust." Nice quote. :) I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important data structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much logically intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." At some points, people get bitten by the determinism issue [0]. Probably, z0ltan was lucky so far. Nevertheless, arrays/slices are the way they are for good reasons. [0] https://dlang.org/d-array-article.html
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 09:54:36 UTC, qznc wrote:I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important data structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much logically intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." At some points, people get bitten by the determinism issueOn the contrary, he does mention D's safety and memory management different from Rust, C and C++ as a good point for him actually. Every thread ends up in the same discussion :p and is GC really so bad in all and every case?
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 09:54:36 UTC, qznc wrote:I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important data structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much logically intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." At some points, people get bitten by the determinism issue [0]. Probably, z0ltan was lucky so far. Nevertheless, arrays/slices are the way they are for good reasons. [0] https://dlang.org/d-array-article.htmlD's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand how it matters.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand how it matters.It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:52:23 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping protection stuff?D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand how it matters.It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping protection stuff?Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:19:47 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:Like with pointers, ownership doesn't have to be encoded in the type this way.What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping protection stuff?Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:49:15 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:19:47 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:One can always work around misguided high level features with abstractions, but it doesn't scale well when features that lead to inconsistency is part of the core language. But in comparison to Go one does at least have the ability to abstract. I still find it odd that people downplay the value of static guarantees in the core language. I am likewise puzzled by the dynamic choices in Golang, but to their credit they decided to focus on evolving the runtime. I think Rust made a lot of the right choices, except they didn't go far enough to fully reap the benefits.On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:Like with pointers, ownership doesn't have to be encoded in the type this way.What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping protection stuff?Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.
Mar 07 2017
On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 05:52:23PM +0000, Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:That's an opinion. Like bachmeier, I have found D arrays (well, slices) to be exactly how I expect arrays to work. The "determinism issue" is really only a problem in exceptional cases where you probably should be using a custom type instead. Or in cases where you're worried about performance and therefore have to understand the nitty-gritty of exactly how slices work in all possible cases -- something that you already have to learn in the first place, if performance is a concern. I love D arrays, warts and all. T -- "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell. "How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" -- AnonymousD's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand how it matters.It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:06:05 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:Like bachmeier, I have found D arrays (well, slices) to be exactly how I expect arrays to work. The "determinism issue" is really only a problem in exceptional cases where you probably should be using a custom type instead. Or in cases where you're worried about performance and therefore have to understand the nitty-gritty of exactly how slices work in all possible cases -- something that you already have to learn in the first place, if performance is a concern. I love D arrays, warts and all.Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in the name of performance, and you better understand what you're doing.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:09:11 UTC, bachmeier wrote:Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in the name of performance, and you better understand what you're doing.I think ATS language is a contradiction here, it combines max than C) with static guarantees Rust folks could only dream about. But the price you pay is amount of intellectual efforts (and time, a lot of time!) to write any non-trivial program.
Mar 07 2017
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 04:56:55 UTC, thedeemon wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:09:11 UTC, bachmeier wrote:Performance, Safety and Productivity. You can only choose two.Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in the name of performance, and you better understand what you're doing.I think ATS language is a contradiction here, it combines max than C) with static guarantees Rust folks could only dream about. But the price you pay is amount of intellectual efforts (and time, a lot of time!) to write any non-trivial program.
Mar 08 2017
On 03/07/2017 12:52 PM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:I found it horribly scary at first myself, but what surprised me is that in all the years I've used D, I've never hit an problem resulting from that, not even once. I admit I can't even begin to explain *why* it's never turned out to be a problem for me though. (And now, *that* is the part that bothers me a little.) Filed, in my brain at least, under "Strange but True".D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand how it matters.It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 20:44:26 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:I found it horribly scary at first myself, but what surprised me is that in all the years I've used D, I've never hit an problem resulting from that, not even once.Just wait till you use a library that added a sentinel at the end of it temporarily...
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/I like the bit in the comments where he says this: "It doesn’t have to be idiomatic to work just fine, which is relaxing." People often don't get how nice this is. -Wyatt
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 16:18:15 UTC, Wyatt wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:"Beautiful! The code probably deserves a bit of explanation – in D, functions are (as far as I can tell), first-class objects" Maybe they should be...https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/I like the bit in the comments where he says this: "It doesn’t have to be idiomatic to work just fine, which is relaxing." People often don't get how nice this is. -Wyatt
Mar 08 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/This reenforces my estimation that the most persuasive feature of any language is the ability to get shit done. That's not a positive value judgement on that focus however. The argument probably should side on the ability to make safe/correct programs _while also_ creating them quickly.Very welcoming and helpful community that actually focuses on the technical side of things rather than getting sidetracked by social causesI've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from Rust. Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in their community?
Mar 07 2017
On 03/07/2017 02:07 PM, Jack Stouffer wrote:I've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from Rust. Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in their community?That surprised me too. My impression is that us D community folks chastise ourselves plenty for conversations constantly veering off the technical path! Was a pleasant surprise to read a new user say "nah, that's really not so bad in D". Who know? :)
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:07:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:I've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from Rust. Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in their community?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg Lot of good stuff in there, but, if you know how to read between the lines, all you need to know about the PC/politicking as well.
Mar 08 2017
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:Lot of good stuff in there, but, if you know how to read between the lines, all you need to know about the PC/politicking as well.Oh, you and I travel in the same circles (*those* subreddits), I think I can id PC when I see it ;).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0VggIf anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 mark. Also, It's quite telling about the ideology of the rust devs that something as mundane as testing automation was framed/explained in an us vs. them narrative. Also, their test suite apparently takes HOURS, wtf.
Mar 08 2017
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote: Oh, you and I travel in the same circles (*those* subreddits), I think I can id PC when I see it ;).From the video: "Why do people keep getting into conflicts? And the answer you find, if you keep asking why enough is diversity. People have diverse viewpoints on what you should be doing, and that's basically the root cause of all disagreement." All there is left to say is Rust in Peace.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0VggIf anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 mark.
Mar 08 2017
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:LOL these kids could use some experience writing C for Linus Torvalds https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0VggIf anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 mark.
Mar 08 2017
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 22:43:49 UTC, XavierAP wrote:On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:The political correctness is one of the major things wrong with both Rust and this country. I am glad D community doesn't engage in this Snowflake BS. Thats one of the big +'s for D. I'll stay away from Rust and other Snowflake ran projects.On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:LOL these kids could use some experience writing C for Linus Torvalds https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0VggIf anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 mark.
Mar 08 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:07:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:That's the beauty of D. You can get shit done in an elegant and pragmatic way. The only downside is that one is tempted to spend too much time on making it even more elegant, but if you're pressed for time you can always come back later. It's only when I deal with other languages that I realize how many nice little features D has that make things so much easier. Features that are easy to use and produce cleaner, more compact code.https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/This reenforces my estimation that the most persuasive feature of any language is the ability to get shit done. That's not a positive value judgement on that focus however. The argument probably should side on the ability to make safe/correct programs _while also_ creating them quickly.
Mar 08 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/Very welcoming and helpful community that actually focuses on the technical side of things rather than getting sidetracked by social causes What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen this mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?
Mar 07 2017
On 03/07/2017 11:33 AM, Soulsbane wrote:What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen this mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?The author had opened the following thread: http://forum.dlang.org/post/dvmsnoxvdbmraisocpyt forum.dlang.org "community seems infused with both the Feminism/SJW" Ali
Mar 07 2017
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 20:47:12 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:On 03/07/2017 11:33 AM, Soulsbane wrote:Ah, thanks for the link Ali!What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen this mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?The author had opened the following thread: http://forum.dlang.org/post/dvmsnoxvdbmraisocpyt forum.dlang.org "community seems infused with both the Feminism/SJW" Ali
Mar 07 2017