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digitalmars.D - Should D1 only bugs be closed?

reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no 
longer supported, should these just be closed?

e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:
 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no
 longer supported, should these just be closed?

 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309

From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only

Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
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On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 17:48 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
[=E2=80=A6]
 From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only
 enhancements are not.

As of 2013-01-01 D1 is supposed to be having no work done on it. To have the prospect of future D1 releases having said there would be none is giving all the wrong messages. --=20 Russel. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n= et 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 17:48 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 [=85]
 From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only
 enhancements are not.

As of 2013-01-01 D1 is supposed to be having no work done on it. To have the prospect of future D1 releases having said there would be none is giving all the wrong messages.

Don't shoot the messenger. :) Walter is still working on D1, as shown: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
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On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
[=E2=80=A6]
 Don't shoot the messenger. :)

Indeed, sorry for any such behaviour. (I had thought of getting into some black humour about shootings but restrained myself.)
 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:
=20
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x
=20
 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.

This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to market D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to have significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously undermines the message. --=20 Russel. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n= et 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 2:09 PM, David Nadlinger wrote:
 The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement regarding the
 status of D1.

D1 is no longer officially supported. There are a couple users of D1 still (like Don), and it would be discourteous to try to purge D1. The point of using git is that branches can exist and be amended if a reason comes up to do so.
 The way the situation has been handled so far could be straight
 out of a »What not to do in project management« handbook.

I don't see how anyone has been damaged or even inconvenienced here.
Feb 09 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 2:39 PM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 D1 is no longer officially supported.

What does that actually mean? Specifically: - Will there be more D1 releases? - Will D1 bug fixes be pulled? - Should people still file D1 bugs? - Should people care about D1 when submitting pulls for D2? From what Andrej has linked to on github, it certainly looks like D1 is still being supported.

People who are interested in D1 are welcome to submit pulls for them, and I'll pull them. This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of using git.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/9/13 5:09 PM, David Nadlinger wrote:
 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 18:04:29 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:

 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x

 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.

This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to market D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to have significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously undermines the message.

The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement regarding the status of D1. The way the situation has been handled so far could be straight out of a »What not to do in project management« handbook. David

http://forum.dlang.org/post/jc0ic5$18bv$2 digitalmars.com Looking forward to see you all at DConf 2013. I hope that meeting would put an end to the recent, let's say, less courteous exchanges in this group as of late. Andrei
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Sat, 09 Feb 2013 17:33:39 +0100
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:

 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no 
 longer supported, should these just be closed?
 
 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309

If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say unless they require a new feature to be implemented. -- Marco
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 21:11:36 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:
 If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests
 for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say
 unless they require a new feature to be implemented.

I thought the point of discontinuing support was so that Walter didn't have to waste time pulling things into the D1 branch and making releases? If he's not going to be doing that then there's no point people making pull requests, and no point having the bugs in the database. That being said, as Andrej has highlighted above, it appears that D1 in fact has not been discontinued at all. There's still daily activity on that branch, so I'm wondering now what's actually going on?
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 18:04:29 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:
 
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x
 
 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, 
 when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.

This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to market D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to have significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously undermines the message.

The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement regarding the status of D1. The way the situation has been handled so far could be straight out of a »What not to do in project management« handbook. David
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 8:33 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no longer
supported,
 should these just be closed?

 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309

No.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 D1 is no longer officially supported.

What does that actually mean? Specifically: - Will there be more D1 releases? - Will D1 bug fixes be pulled? - Should people still file D1 bugs? - Should people care about D1 when submitting pulls for D2? From what Andrej has linked to on github, it certainly looks like D1 is still being supported.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of using git.

How does it not affect us if *you* are taking the time to port D2 fixes to D1? The whole announcement that D1 support is over after December 31st was clearly completely pointless and a lie.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:50:18 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 People who are interested in D1 are welcome to submit pulls for 
 them, and I'll pull them.

 This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of 
 using git.

If it uses up your time then it affects everyone using D2 because it's time you're spending supporting an "unsupported" project instead of supporting D2. It might be ok if D1 merges were a rare occurrence, but according to the github logs you're merging into the D1 on a daily basis.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, February 09, 2013 14:22:44 Walter Bright wrote:
 On 2/9/2013 8:33 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no longer
 supported, should these just be closed?
 
 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309

No.

I think that what most of us expected to happen to D1 when official support was discontinued would be that no more work would occur on the D1 branch in the official repository at all, and all bugs in bugzilla for D1 would be closed as "won't fix." Anyone would be free to branch from the official repository and continue the project, but nothing in the official repository or bug tracker would do anything with D1 anymore. The only way that work on D1 would continue would be if someone else took it over the project and used their own fork to continue it. Pretty much anything short of that makes it seem like D1 is still supported. But apparently, you weren't thinking that way, and there's clearly been a misunderstanding as to what not supporting D1 meant. - Jonathan M Davis
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 D1 is no longer officially supported. There are a couple users 
 of D1 still (like Don), and it would be discourteous to try to 
 purge D1. The point of using git is that branches can exist and 
 be amended if a reason comes up to do so.

I know, you've mentioned it as a side note on some dmd-internals/GitHub discussion. Note that even though I would obviously love to see more corporate users contributing to D2, I'm not at all trying to discourage Don, Leandro and the others from Sociomantic from continuing to work on D1. There just has not really been an official announcement regarding the ongoing D1 development, and what form it will continue in.
 I don't see how anyone has been damaged or even inconvenienced 
 here.

I think a lack of clear communication in this area can be a threat in two ways: First, from how discussions in the different online fora usually go, the D development is not exactly perceived as principled or organized by many outsiders. And seemingly continuing to support a product after its firmly announced discontinuation date is only going to add to that, as Russel noted earlier. Second, and perhaps even more importantly, such situations will almost invariably startle the developer community, as evidenced by the posts in this thread, and the (as usual, slightly ... direct) "wtf is Walter doing" messages that have been popping up on IRC lately. I don't want to make it seem as if I knew it all and had the answer to all process-related questions; I certainly don't and there are many people here who are much more experienced in the various aspects of software development than I am. But I *do* think that I have recognized the vital importance of communication to the success of any big problem (open source or not). And, as I think I mentioned elsewhere recently, it occurs to me that a lack or delay in communication has been the recurring theme in many of the more unfortunate turns and missed opportunities in D's history. In retrospect, some of my recent messages might have turned out a little bit too blunt. Please accept my apologies, I just tried to state my opinion clearly and did not intend to offend anybody. But I'd hate to see the same story being repeated all over again, and it seems that unfortunately it is the most direct queries that tend receive a response the fastest... David
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 23:08:55 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 http://forum.dlang.org/post/jc0ic5$18bv$2 digitalmars.com

That post is over a year old, and the point was precisely that recent development activity seemed to contradict this statement.
 Looking forward to see you all at DConf 2013. I hope that 
 meeting would put an end to the recent, let's say, less 
 courteous exchanges in this group as of late.

As written in my reply to Walter, I didn't intend to offend anybody, but I *am* beginning to feel somewhat like a broken record asking for more proactively communicating decisions that concern the D project as a whole. Just don't let any ambiguities arise in the first place. Oh, and I am certainly looking forward to meeting you all at this year's DConf as well. David
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Miles Stoudenmire" <miles.stoudenmire gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 10 February 2013 at 03:20:26 UTC, David Nadlinger 
wrote:
 That post is over a year old, and the point was precisely that 
 recent development activity seemed to contradict this statement.

The D Progamming Language book discusses this decision as well.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:41:18 +0100
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:

 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 21:11:36 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:
 If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests
 for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say
 unless they require a new feature to be implemented.

I thought the point of discontinuing support was so that Walter didn't have to waste time pulling things into the D1 branch and making releases? If he's not going to be doing that then there's no point people making pull requests, and no point having the bugs in the database. That being said, as Andrej has highlighted above, it appears that D1 in fact has not been discontinued at all. There's still daily activity on that branch, so I'm wondering now what's actually going on?

Maybe this project was thought of as an operating system where you just discontinue support and updates, but it turned out that with open source and GitHub it is actually possible with little effort to allow D1 users (and we have corporate users there) to fix remaining bugs. I'm far from a core DMD developer, so I don't understand your dependence on Walter's full attention to D2. I'm just saying it seems legit to me, to keep Don & Co. on board. I'd just drop making D1 releases as a compromise. -- Marco
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 10 February 2013 at 07:06:47 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:
 I'm far from a core DMD developer, so I don't understand your
 dependence on Walter's full attention to D2. I'm just saying
 it seems legit to me, to keep Don & Co. on board. I'd just
 drop making D1 releases as a compromise.

It seems legit to me, too. I fully understand the desire to continue supporting D1: there are still real users with real needs. I'm just confused since we were told that D1 would be discontinued at the start of this year. Walter and Andrei's time is precious because they are the only people that can make final decisions about the language, and there's many, many decisions that still need to be made: property syntax, shared semantics, copy constructors, ref semantics, auto ref, accessibility vs. visibility, allocator design etc. Any time spent merging changes into D1 is time not spent fixing issues with D2. Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse here. Clearly D1 is still going to be supported, and me ranting on the forums isn't going to change that.
Feb 10 2013