digitalmars.D - Re: is it possible to learn D(2)?
- lurker <lurk lurk.net> Dec 19 2010
- Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> Dec 19 2010
- Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> Dec 19 2010
- Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> Dec 19 2010
- "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> Dec 19 2010
- Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> Dec 20 2010
- Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> Dec 19 2010
- Gour <gour atmarama.net> Dec 19 2010
- Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> Dec 19 2010
- Gour <gour atmarama.net> Dec 19 2010
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:On 12/18/10 3:44 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:On 12/18/2010 03:16 PM, Don wrote:Jeff Nowakowski wrote:D2 has *never* been officially released (like D1 was), though its release was supposed to coincide with the release of Andrei's book.
Where did you get that idea? I've never heard it before. (Genuine question, I'd like to know where that impression came from).
Which idea are you questioning? That D2 hasn't been "released", or that the two were supposed to come out together? The answer to both would be the newsgroup. There was plenty of talk about them coming out together, and then time went by, and Andrei's book was relatively quietly released (unless I missed some big announcement; my memory was of posts trickling in of people who had pre-ordered), and no mention was made of D2 being released any more along with the book. I can dig up posts if you like, but I'd rather not unless any of this is in dispute.
I don't think it's worth investigating this, but at any rate my thinking has been that finalizing TDPL would finalize the specification of D2. Of course, ideally the compiler would follow the specification as closely as possible, but with the number of extant issues it has always been pretty clear that conformance will be trailing. The book hasn't been released quietly at all; I've sent numerous updates to this group (just search for TDPL in the title) and my website has made the event as prominent as it could. As it was clearly highly anticipated in this group, laying it any thicker would have been inappropriate.Walter and Andrei haven't been very honest in their presentations on the state of the language.
I think the initial estimate of how long things would take was wildly optimistic. I am certain that there's been no intention to be dishonest, at any stage.
Andrei gives other people a lot of shit over only showing the positive in their presentations. Both Andrei and Walter have misrepresented the open source compiler issues on their slides (and Walter had no excuse after Andrei was called for it on the newsgroup). I saw Andrei's Google presentation and he talked a lot about D2 features and gave away a lot of books, but never once said that D2 was still being implemented and that serious bugs remained.
A fair point. Well I didn't give away "a lot" of books, I gave three, and specifically for the three most embarrassing questions. (My budget of giveaway books is fairly limited.)
Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I could donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my name, after all I'm just helping the poor.
Dec 19 2010
On 12/19/10, lurker <lurk lurk.net> wrote:Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I could donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my name, after all I'm just helping the poor.
I'm pretty sure it means he got a couple of free books from the publisher to give away for free. ;)
Dec 19 2010
On 12/19/10 9:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:On 12/19/10, lurker<lurk lurk.net> wrote:Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I could donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my name, after all I'm just helping the poor.
I'm pretty sure it means he got a couple of free books from the publisher to give away for free. ;)
The main issue is perceived value. Books are not T-shirts as significant time would have to be spent on reading them. Say I had 40 people in the audience and 40 books. Then it would have been like passing around marketing samples of no perceived value. Andrei
Dec 19 2010
On 12/19/10 11:00 AM, Caligo wrote:On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org <mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>> wrote: On 12/19/10 9:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 12/19/10, lurker<lurk lurk.net <mailto:lurk lurk.net>> wrote: Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I could donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my name, after all I'm just helping the poor. I'm pretty sure it means he got a couple of free books from the publisher to give away for free. ;) The main issue is perceived value. Books are not T-shirts as significant time would have to be spent on reading them. Say I had 40 people in the audience and 40 books. Then it would have been like passing around marketing samples of no perceived value. Andrei That's almost like saying all documentations, books, and reference materials licensed under GNU FDL are worthless because you don't have to pay for them. There are actually people who think that about FOSS; "eh, if it was worth anything they wouldn't let you download the source code for free."
That's a completely different matter, but I won't insist as I'm sure you understand the extent to which you're forcing the comparison.I actually think your book would have been worth more if you had released it under GNU FDL or a similar license.
I do a lot of work for free anyway so making money was not the first motivation. The thing is, however, that printed books still carry more authority than online ones, even though clearly there are many online books that compare favorably with the average printed book. Having a major publisher decide to take risks and invest money in producing at professional quality and marketing a book on a up-and-coming language is a clear signal that they believe in the success of the book and consequently that of the language. Andrei
Dec 19 2010
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:ielekh$1qg2$1 digitalmars.com...Having a major publisher decide to take risks and invest money in producing at professional quality and marketing a book on a up-and-coming language is a clear signal that they believe in the success of the book and consequently that of the language.
FWIW, if I'm trying to discern the quality or worth of a language, I wouldn't really consider a book publisher to be an authority on that any more than, say, a dentist. (Well, ok, maybe more than a dentist, but you get what I mean.)
Dec 19 2010
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> On 12/19/10 1:20 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:"Andrei Alexandrescu"<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message news:ielekh$1qg2$1 digitalmars.com...Having a major publisher decide to take risks and invest money in producing at professional quality and marketing a book on a up-and-coming language is a clear signal that they believe in the success of the book and consequently that of the language.
FWIW, if I'm trying to discern the quality or worth of a language, I wouldn't really consider a book publisher to be an authority on that any more than, say, a dentist. (Well, ok, maybe more than a dentist, but you get what I mean.)
The comparison does not fit. This is about making a business decision on whether to invest a large fixed cost into a book. Andrei
Dec 19 2010
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:The main issue is perceived value. Books are not T-shirts as significant time would have to be spent on reading them. Say I had 40 people in the audience and 40 books. Then it would have been like passing around marketing samples of no perceived value.
Right. If you passed them out to all comers, they'd share the fate of all such premiums. A third would be left on the floor, a third in the trash bins on the way out, a third taken home and forgotten about, and none read.
Dec 20 2010
--001636e0a9cc677bf40497c657ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu < SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:On 12/19/10 9:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:On 12/19/10, lurker<lurk lurk.net> wrote:Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I could donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my name, after all I'm just helping the poor.
publisher to give away for free. ;)
The main issue is perceived value. Books are not T-shirts as significant time would have to be spent on reading them. Say I had 40 people in the audience and 40 books. Then it would have been like passing around marketing samples of no perceived value. Andrei
That's almost like saying all documentations, books, and reference materials licensed under GNU FDL are worthless because you don't have to pay for them. There are actually people who think that about FOSS; "eh, if it was worth anything they wouldn't let you download the source code for free." I actually think your book would have been worth more if you had released it under GNU FDL or a similar license. --001636e0a9cc677bf40497c657ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Andrei= Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail er= dani.org">SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquot= e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1p= x solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> <div class=3D"im">On 12/19/10 9:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;= border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class= =3D"im"> On 12/19/10, lurker<<a href=3D"mailto:lurk lurk.net" target=3D"_blank">l= urk lurk.net</a>> =A0wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;= border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> Does this mean that Facebook is not paying you that well, after all? I coul= d<div class=3D"im"><br> donate like $82 to you to give away three more books. No need to mention my= <br> name, after all I'm just helping the poor.<br> <br> </div></blockquote> <br><div class=3D"im"> I'm pretty sure it means he got a couple of free books from the<br> publisher to give away for free. ;)<br> </div></blockquote> <br> The main issue is perceived value. Books are not T-shirts as significant ti= me would have to be spent on reading them. Say I had 40 people in the audie= nce and 40 books. Then it would have been like passing around marketing sam= ples of no perceived value.<br> <font color=3D"#888888"> <br> <br> Andrei<br> </font></blockquote></div><br>That's almost like saying all documentati= ons, books, and reference materials licensed under GNU FDL are worthless be= cause you don't have to pay for them.=A0 There are actually people who = think that about FOSS; "eh, if it was worth anything they wouldn't= let you download the source code for free."<br> <br>I actually think your book would have been worth more if you had releas= ed it under GNU FDL or a similar license.<br> --001636e0a9cc677bf40497c657ea--
Dec 19 2010
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:14:08 -0600"Andrei" =3D=3D Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Andrei> The thing is, however, that printed books still carry more Andrei> authority than online ones, even though clearly there are many Andrei> online books that compare favorably with the average printed Andrei> book. I agree...For instance I bought Real World Haskell although it's available online for free. The only gripe I have about it is that it probably came too late for me. (I tried to learn Haskell before that.) Otoh, TDPL has come on time, I like it and, similarly, would buy it even if there would be free version online. Now, I'm happy being assured that D(2) can be learnt using TDPL. :-) Thanks to all for replies. ;) Sincerely, Gour --=20 Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA ----------------------------------------------------------------
Dec 19 2010
On 12/19/10, Gour <gour atmarama.net> wrote:Now, I'm happy being assured that D(2) can be learnt using TDPL. :-)
And if you get stuck with something don't hesitate asking about it in d-learn!
Dec 19 2010
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:35:52 +0100"Andrej" =3D=3D Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:
Andrej> And if you get stuck with something don't hesitate asking about Sure. Thanks. btw, it would be nice to have code examples from TDPL to save some typing. Sincerely, Gour --=20 Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA ----------------------------------------------------------------
Dec 19 2010