www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - Qt Creator and D

reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
Hello all,

Several of us have been talking about Qt Creator and D in various subthreads of 
the current IDE-related discussions going on right now, so I thought it might
be 
worth raising as a matter of general interest.

My general impression is that this is a fast, light cross-platform IDE which is 
(as its name indicates) state-of-the-art for C++ and Qt development.

Currently it has fairly good D/Ddoc syntax highlighting (it literally copies
the 
latest d.xml syntax definition file from KDE's text editor Kate).  However, I 
wasn't able to get things like auto-indent working, and haven't yet put any 
serious effort into investigating build/compiler or debugging support.

It also has a FakeVim mode that enables vim-like editing and should be able to 
operate from the local .vimrc settings, but my brief experiments weren't so far 
able to get it to reproduce my current vim behaviour.

The last related discussion that I'm aware of is from about 3 years back, when 
several D users discussed implementing Qt Creator support:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/ide/Qt_Creator_with_D_707.html

... but I'm not aware of any follow-up since then.

I'm just wondering how many people would be interested in seeing better D 
support in this IDE, and how many people have more experience or can offer 
insight into how to proceed.

Best wishes,

     -- Joe
Sep 18 2013
next sibling parent "Craig Dillabaugh" <cdillaba cg.scs.carleton.ca> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 14:49:27 UTC, Joseph Rushton
Wakeling wrote:
 Hello all,

 Several of us have been talking about Qt Creator and D in 
 various subthreads of the current IDE-related discussions going 
 on right now, so I thought it might be worth raising as a 
 matter of general interest.

 My general impression is that this is a fast, light 
 cross-platform IDE which is (as its name indicates) 
 state-of-the-art for C++ and Qt development.

 Currently it has fairly good D/Ddoc syntax highlighting (it 
 literally copies the latest d.xml syntax definition file from 
 KDE's text editor Kate).  However, I wasn't able to get things 
 like auto-indent working, and haven't yet put any serious 
 effort into investigating build/compiler or debugging support.

 It also has a FakeVim mode that enables vim-like editing and 
 should be able to operate from the local .vimrc settings, but 
 my brief experiments weren't so far able to get it to reproduce 
 my current vim behaviour.

 The last related discussion that I'm aware of is from about 3 
 years back, when several D users discussed implementing Qt 
 Creator support:
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/ide/Qt_Creator_with_D_707.html

 ... but I'm not aware of any follow-up since then.

 I'm just wondering how many people would be interested in 
 seeing better D support in this IDE, and how many people have 
 more experience or can offer insight into how to proceed.

 Best wishes,

     -- Joe

I would be interested in this. I usually use Kate for small/non-Qt C++/D projects, but have used QtCreator for Qt-projects on Linux and for C++ development on Windows. Craig
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Henning Pohl" <henning still-hidden.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 14:49:27 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 Hello all,

 Several of us have been talking about Qt Creator and D in 
 various subthreads of the current IDE-related discussions going 
 on right now, so I thought it might be worth raising as a 
 matter of general interest.

 My general impression is that this is a fast, light 
 cross-platform IDE which is (as its name indicates) 
 state-of-the-art for C++ and Qt development.

 Currently it has fairly good D/Ddoc syntax highlighting (it 
 literally copies the latest d.xml syntax definition file from 
 KDE's text editor Kate).  However, I wasn't able to get things 
 like auto-indent working, and haven't yet put any serious 
 effort into investigating build/compiler or debugging support.

 It also has a FakeVim mode that enables vim-like editing and 
 should be able to operate from the local .vimrc settings, but 
 my brief experiments weren't so far able to get it to reproduce 
 my current vim behaviour.

 The last related discussion that I'm aware of is from about 3 
 years back, when several D users discussed implementing Qt 
 Creator support:
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/ide/Qt_Creator_with_D_707.html

 ... but I'm not aware of any follow-up since then.

 I'm just wondering how many people would be interested in 
 seeing better D support in this IDE, and how many people have 
 more experience or can offer insight into how to proceed.

 Best wishes,

     -- Joe

It's the best IDE for C++ development I have encountered so far. And it's the only drawback of DMD making the change to D: I cannot use it to fix bugs anymore.
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Mike Farnsworth" <mike.farnsworth gmail.com> writes:
I'm also interested in this.  I use Qt Creator all the time for 
my usual projects and my job, and having D support would be 
fantastic and would really help motivate me to spend more time 
with D.  At some point I'd like to look into how to add new 
language support in there, if I can find some spare time.

On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 14:49:27 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 Hello all,

 Several of us have been talking about Qt Creator and D in 
 various subthreads of the current IDE-related discussions going 
 on right now, so I thought it might be worth raising as a 
 matter of general interest.

 My general impression is that this is a fast, light 
 cross-platform IDE which is (as its name indicates) 
 state-of-the-art for C++ and Qt development.

 Currently it has fairly good D/Ddoc syntax highlighting (it 
 literally copies the latest d.xml syntax definition file from 
 KDE's text editor Kate).  However, I wasn't able to get things 
 like auto-indent working, and haven't yet put any serious 
 effort into investigating build/compiler or debugging support.

 It also has a FakeVim mode that enables vim-like editing and 
 should be able to operate from the local .vimrc settings, but 
 my brief experiments weren't so far able to get it to reproduce 
 my current vim behaviour.

 The last related discussion that I'm aware of is from about 3 
 years back, when several D users discussed implementing Qt 
 Creator support:
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/ide/Qt_Creator_with_D_707.html

 ... but I'm not aware of any follow-up since then.

 I'm just wondering how many people would be interested in 
 seeing better D support in this IDE, and how many people have 
 more experience or can offer insight into how to proceed.

 Best wishes,

     -- Joe

Sep 18 2013
next sibling parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 18.09.2013 18:46, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:
 On 18/09/13 18:02, Mike Farnsworth wrote:
 I'm also interested in this.  I use Qt Creator all the time for my usual
 projects and my job, and having D support would be fantastic and would
 really
 help motivate me to spend more time with D.  At some point I'd like to
 look into
 how to add new language support in there, if I can find some spare time.

It would be great if you could follow up on this. I have been reading around where I can and also asked for advice on the Qt Forums, but so far no responses. I'll continue to research what needs to be done, but you may get better mileage than me as you obviously know Qt Creator better than I do!

For starters, Qt creator can make use of Kate configuration files. So we could at very least have D syntax highlighting available. -- Paulo
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 18/09/13 19:10, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 For starters, Qt creator can make use of Kate configuration files.

 So we could at very least have D syntax highlighting available.

It is available -- current Qt Creator has the same d.xml as the most recent Kate. It dates from 2011 and supports both D and Ddoc syntax highlighting. I wasn't able to get auto-indentation working with D source files, though.
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 18/09/13 18:02, Mike Farnsworth wrote:
 I'm also interested in this.  I use Qt Creator all the time for my usual
 projects and my job, and having D support would be fantastic and would really
 help motivate me to spend more time with D.  At some point I'd like to look
into
 how to add new language support in there, if I can find some spare time.

It would be great if you could follow up on this. I have been reading around where I can and also asked for advice on the Qt Forums, but so far no responses. I'll continue to research what needs to be done, but you may get better mileage than me as you obviously know Qt Creator better than I do!
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 18/09/13 17:21, Henning Pohl wrote:
 It's the best IDE for C++ development I have encountered so far. And it's the
 only drawback of DMD making the change to D: I cannot use it to fix bugs
anymore.

All the more reason for us to make sure that it works with D too, I'd say :-)
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 16:02:04 UTC, Mike Farnsworth 
wrote:
 I'm also interested in this.  I use Qt Creator all the time for 
 my usual projects and my job, and having D support would be 
 fantastic and would really help motivate me to spend more time 
 with D.  At some point I'd like to look into how to add new 
 language support in there, if I can find some spare time.

May be an interesting use case to check DCD applicability for full-blown IDE.
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Somewhat related. I use Kate (for D & web development) and 
occasionally KDevelop (for C/C++ stuff). I only started using 
these when I switched from Gnome to KDE 6 months ago, but I was 
very impressed and now they're my favorite editors (KDevelop can 
even challenge Visual Studios for C/C++ dev in many ways).

I would love to see more support for both these editors with D. 
DCD looks cool, but it's a bit complicate to get working, so I've 
held off from trying it.
Sep 18 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-09-20 06:53, F i L wrote:

 I figured it was something along those lines though, so I tested editing
 a file while stopped on a breakpoint, and then running it and it didn't
 work. It's possible there's some switch i needed to hit, or that it
 would work with Clang/LLDB, but I doubt it (don't quote me on that
 though, you should ask the KDE folks).

I've seen a couple of talks about LLDB and I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned this feature if it existed. Unless it's so common feature that everybody expects it to exist. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-09-20 02:10:30 +0000, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> said:

 It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it's
 been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to
 copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?)

Apple had Fix-and-continue when Xcode 1.0 replaced Project Builder ten years ago. It was abandoned in Xcode 4. I'm not sure how reliable it was, but I remember having played with it when it was new but not bothering much later. I guess the feature not being completely reliable, moving the toolchain from gcc to clang, and code signatures being required when running iOS apps all contributed to make the feature go away. Perhaps they'll revive that feature now that their toolchain is more stable. File enhancement requests on Apple's bug tracker if you want to put some pressure on them to resurrect the feature. -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Sep 20 2013
next sibling parent dennis luehring <dl.soluz gmx.net> writes:
Am 20.09.2013 13:46, schrieb Manu:
 Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in
 XCode?
 In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you
 press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and
 then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.

but that works only good if your design is very very interface oriented - i've never touched a project where it worked properbly
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-09-20 13:46, Manu wrote:

 Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it
 in XCode?
 In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when
 you press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds
 (building), and then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much
 seamless.

I just found this: http://injectionforxcode.com/ -- /Jacob Carlborg
Sep 20 2013
parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-09-20 13:30:15 +0000, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> said:

 On 2013-09-20 13:46, Manu wrote:
 
 Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it
 in XCode?
 In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when
 you press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds
 (building), and then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much
 seamless.

I just found this: http://injectionforxcode.com/

Yes. They're doing it using the Objective-C runtime ability to change at runtime the pointer to methods while the older Fix-and-continue stuff was doing pretty the same thing using a special linker (ZeroLink) that actually links things lazily at runtime. http://zathras.de/angelweb/blog-the-dangers-of-zerolink.htm -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling parent reply Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-09-20 11:46:34 +0000, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> said:

 Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in
 XCode?

I think it sometime failed to patch the executable, thus forcing a full rebuild and a relaunch. Perhaps just a little too often to be useful? I wasn't working on anything where avoiding a full rebuild was really useful, so I never really used it.
 In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you
 press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and
 then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.

Same thing. Press Fix-and-continue instead of Continue, it rebuilds and then it continues running with the new code. -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Sep 20 2013
parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-09-20 13:36:45 +0000, Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> said:

 On 2013-09-20 11:46:34 +0000, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> said:
 
 Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in
 XCode?

I think it sometime failed to patch the executable, thus forcing a full rebuild and a relaunch. Perhaps just a little too often to be useful? I wasn't working on anything where avoiding a full rebuild was really useful, so I never really used it.

Ok, actually if you search for ZeroLink (the underlying linker behind that feature), you'll get a ton of results showing issues with it, like unexplained crashes. -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 20/09/13 10:47, PauloPinto wrote:
 KDevelop and KDE always suffered a big push back from Linux and BSD developers,
 because of their C++ roots.

 Back when I did a few contributions to GTKmm, the GNOME community used to
 ostracize the project because it was being done in C++. There used to exist a
 few big C vs C++ flamewars back then

As I recall there was a bit of an ideological aspect around this. The GNU guidelines, written quite a long while ago, advocated using C rather than C++ where possible because it was more portable, and for some people this seems to have turned into a religious dogma rather than a practical consideration (much like kosher or halal, to be honest...).
 KDevelop was always seen as an IDE for KDE developers, nothing else.

Well, whatever the intent, if you want to install it you have to pull in a ton of KDE dependencies, which is always annoying if you're on a different desktop environment and don't use any other KDE applications. I used it a fair bit -- albeit as a superpowered text editor rather than a true IDE -- up until the switch to KDE 4, when the new release became very unstable and prone to crashing (if I recall right it was the symbol parsing that would fall over). I'm sure it's a great IDE (the KDE devs have always been good at building really functional software), but it doesn't seem an ideal target for cross-platform use.
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 21.09.2013 07:10, schrieb F i L:
 Manu wrote:
 It's certainly missed in my professional environment, but even outside
 that, it's still super handy and saves a lot of time. Particularly if you
 are in the habit of using it.
 Do you remember when you first got a mouse with a mouse wheel? You
 thought
 it was kinda cool, but I'll bet you didn't use it that much... you
 weren't
 in the habit of it.
 Have you tried to use a mouse without a mouse wheel recently? ... it's
 like
 that.

Yes, I agree. My point wasn't that it isn't a convenience, only that linux tech companies with the ability to implement it probably haven't seen it as a worth-while effort (financially speaking) in the past, due to it not effecting their development practices as much as it may effects other industries (like major game creators). I hope, as I'm sure you do, that, due to Valve's interest in Linux, better debugging features will be seen as more of a priority. It will be a brighter day for Linux when engine designers of AAA game companies don't have anything to complain about when it comes to developing on Linux ;)
 Linux UI still feels largely like a facade to me. If ANYTHING goes wrong,
 you are back at square 1, if you're not an expert, you probably can't
 fix it.

I recommend trying Elementary OS sometime (also, keep an eye on Manjaro). There are surely more automatic self-correcting feature on Windows, but Linux is getting better here I think. There has simply been more man-hours put into consumer-level features on Windows.
 I still think the biggest problem by far is that only an expert can
 fix it
 when anything goes wrong. And things *always* go wrong.

I think you may be exaggerating a bit. I've never had any outstanding issues with distro's like Unbuntu on my machine, but then, it's subject a lot to the quality of your drivers, which sometimes get neglected a bit due to linux's lack of popularity in the desktop consumer space. I've had good success installing on Intel laptops, for instance, and bad experience installing on AMD laptops. But I think you'd find the same was probably true (or worse) with Mac. Which is why I mentioned the only way to sell Linux would be to put it in a fancy box and paint it's face with some expensive advertising (just like Mac and Sony do with BSD, only someone needs to do it more openly). I do agree, there are some areas Linux needs more time to bake, the Display Server is a good example (and PulseAudio), also things like more user-friendly Software Centers. But projects like Wayland, Gnome, Ubuntu, and Elementary are doing good work, and there are some good improvements on the way in the next year or two I think.

The sad thing is that although Linux distributions have progressed quite a lot, I would have said something like what you are saying back in 1994-2005 time frame. Nowadays I just use Windows on my main laptop with a Linux VM on it. I do have a small netbook with Linux on it for travelling, but I was lucky Asus sells laptops with Linux distributions in Germany. And even then, as I described a few times, the drivers got borked due to FOSS religious decisions. This to say I stopped caring about dual boot and playing around with configuration files. Either it works out of the box, or I have better things to do with my time. -- Paulo
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 17:29:54 UTC, F i L wrote:
 Somewhat related. I use Kate (for D & web development) and 
 occasionally KDevelop (for C/C++ stuff). I only started using 
 these when I switched from Gnome to KDE 6 months ago, but I was 
 very impressed and now they're my favorite editors (KDevelop 
 can even challenge Visual Studios for C/C++ dev in many ways).

 I would love to see more support for both these editors with D. 
 DCD looks cool, but it's a bit complicate to get working, so 
 I've held off from trying it.

AFAIK Kate already has DCD-based plugin for D
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "growler" <growlercab gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 17:38:57 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 On 18/09/13 19:10, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 For starters, Qt creator can make use of Kate configuration 
 files.

 So we could at very least have D syntax highlighting available.

It is available -- current Qt Creator has the same d.xml as the most recent Kate. It dates from 2011 and supports both D and Ddoc syntax highlighting. I wasn't able to get auto-indentation working with D source files, though.

+1 I use Qt Creator for debugging D when I get a hangover from too much GDB. It works fine with breakpoints, watch list and the rest. As long as I compile with -gc though. What would be nice is a plugin that provides some tools like jump to definition for variables, find usages etc. I'd be willing to help out with that, testing, coding, documenting etc.
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "growler" <growlercab gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 23:25:56 UTC, growler wrote:
 On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 17:38:57 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
 Wakeling wrote:
 On 18/09/13 19:10, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 For starters, Qt creator can make use of Kate configuration 
 files.

 So we could at very least have D syntax highlighting 
 available.

It is available -- current Qt Creator has the same d.xml as the most recent Kate. It dates from 2011 and supports both D and Ddoc syntax highlighting. I wasn't able to get auto-indentation working with D source files, though.

+1 I use Qt Creator for debugging D when I get a hangover from too much GDB. It works fine with breakpoints, watch list and the rest. As long as I compile with -gc though. What would be nice is a plugin that provides some tools like jump to definition for variables, find usages etc. I'd be willing to help out with that, testing, coding, documenting etc.

I should point out that the debugging is all from "Start and Debug External Application" so of course there is no real "project" support in the IDE. But it automatically steps into all my code, third-party code (gtkd, orange etc.) and Phobos without any major problems.
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Brian Schott" <briancschott gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 17:31:56 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
 AFAIK Kate already has DCD-based plugin for D

https://github.com/Dav1dde/lumen The README says that it should be able to work with anything that uses KTextEditor. (I've only tried it with Kate though)
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e011830661a6c3a04e6b2556f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 19 September 2013 03:29, F i L <witte2008 gmail.com> wrote:

 Somewhat related. I use Kate (for D & web development) and occasionally
 KDevelop (for C/C++ stuff). I only started using these when I switched from
 Gnome to KDE 6 months ago, but I was very impressed and now they're my
 favorite editors (KDevelop can even challenge Visual Studios for C/C++ dev
 in many ways).

I was fairly impressed with kdevelop upon recent impressions last weekend. Does it support incremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or is there ANY other compiler+IDE out there that does?) If it does, I'll look at it very very seriously. --089e011830661a6c3a04e6b2556f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 19 September 2013 03:29, F i L <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a= href=3D"mailto:witte2008 gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">witte2008 gmail.com<= /a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Somewhat related. I use Kate (for D &amp; web development) and occasionally= KDevelop (for C/C++ stuff). I only started using these when I switched fro= m Gnome to KDE 6 months ago, but I was very impressed and now they&#39;re m= y favorite editors (KDevelop can even challenge Visual Studios for C/C++ de= v in many ways).<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was fairly impressed with kdevelop upon = recent impressions last weekend.</div><div><br></div><div>Does it support i= ncremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or is there ANY other compiler+I= DE out there that does?)</div> <div>If it does, I&#39;ll look at it very very seriously.<br></div></div></= div></div> --089e011830661a6c3a04e6b2556f--
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 19 September 2013 at 01:18:42 UTC, Manu wrote:
 Does it support incremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or 
 is there ANY
 other compiler+IDE out there that does?)
 If it does, I'll look at it very very seriously.

Those are features of linker / debugger, not IDE. Simply trying different IDE's won't change a thing here. (I am unaware of any Linux development tool that does it)
Sep 18 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Manu wrote:
 I was fairly impressed with kdevelop upon recent impressions 
 last weekend.

 Does it support incremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or 
 is there ANY
 other compiler+IDE out there that does?)
 If it does, I'll look at it very very seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean by "edit-and-continue". I don't know if it does incremental linking, but I thought that sort of thing was more of a compiler/build-system feature, and IDK enough about GCC/Clang or CMake (what KDev is designed around) to know about it's features there. The only language I know for a fact has that built-in is Nimrod. I only work on one C++ project, so I am in no way an expert on the language or it's tools. I'm also fairly new to KDevelop, so I'm not the person to question here. By "comparable to VS in many ways", I was referring to KDevelop's debugging, intellisense, code refactoring, syntax highlighting, general interface, and project/session management. All of which I've found to be roughly on-par with Visual Studios in my experience (granted I've barely used VS 2012 & 2013 is out soon).
Sep 19 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--047d7b472078be38b804e6c72ca7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 08:09, F i L <witte2008 gmail.com> wrote:

 Manu wrote:

 I was fairly impressed with kdevelop upon recent impressions last weekend.

 Does it support incremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or is there
 ANY
 other compiler+IDE out there that does?)
 If it does, I'll look at it very very seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean by "edit-and-continue".

Edit-and-continue is what MS calls the obvious extension from incremental linking where you can re-link your exe while it's running and paused in a debugger, and then continue debugging the current process with the new exe after it links your code changes. it's one of visual studio's most valuable tools. I don't know if it does incremental linking, but I thought that sort of
 thing was more of a compiler/build-system feature, and IDK enough about
 GCC/Clang or CMake (what KDev is designed around) to know about it's
 features there. The only language I know for a fact has that built-in is
 Nimrod.

It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it's been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?) I only work on one C++ project, so I am in no way an expert on the language
 or it's tools. I'm also fairly new to KDevelop, so I'm not the person to
 question here. By "comparable to VS in many ways", I was referring to
 KDevelop's debugging, intellisense, code refactoring, syntax highlighting,
 general interface, and project/session management. All of which I've found
 to be roughly on-par with Visual Studios in my experience (granted I've
 barely used VS 2012 & 2013 is out soon).

Debugging is the most important feature an IDE offers by far, and it's only half-implemented if it doesn't support edit-and-continue. Everything else looked good to me in kdevelop. I'll definitely give it a bit more time. Sadly there seems to be no push for D in kdevelop though :( --047d7b472078be38b804e6c72ca7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 20 September 2013 08:09, F i L <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a= href=3D"mailto:witte2008 gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">witte2008 gmail.com<= /a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor= der-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:sol= id;padding-left:1ex"> Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> I was fairly impressed with kdevelop upon recent impressions last weekend.<= br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> Does it support incremental linking and edit-and-continue? (or is there ANY= <br> other compiler+IDE out there that does?)<br> If it does, I&#39;ll look at it very very seriously.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> I&#39;m not sure what you mean by &quot;edit-and-continue&quot;.<br></block= quote><div><br></div><div>Edit-and-continue is what MS calls the obvious ex= tension from incremental linking where you can re-link your exe while it&#3= 9;s running and paused in a debugger, and then continue debugging the curre= nt process with the new exe after it links your code changes.</div> <div>it&#39;s one of visual studio&#39;s most valuable tools.</div><div><br=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=

solid;padding-left:1ex"> I don&#39;t know if it does incremental linking, but I thought that sort of= thing was more of a compiler/build-system feature, and IDK enough about GC= C/Clang or CMake (what KDev is designed around) to know about it&#39;s feat= ures there. The only language I know for a fact has that built-in is Nimrod= .<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>It requires support from various stages in= the pipeline and gui, but it&#39;s been available for a decade from MS. Su= rely someone else has bothered to copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?= )</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p= x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef= t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> I only work on one C++ project, so I am in no way an expert on the language= or it&#39;s tools. I&#39;m also fairly new to KDevelop, so I&#39;m not the= person to question here. By &quot;comparable to VS in many ways&quot;, I w= as referring to KDevelop&#39;s debugging, intellisense, code refactoring, s= yntax highlighting, general interface, and project/session management. All = of which I&#39;ve found to be roughly on-par with Visual Studios in my expe= rience (granted I&#39;ve barely used VS 2012 &amp; 2013 is out soon).<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>Debugging is the most important feature an= IDE offers by far, and it&#39;s only half-implemented if it doesn&#39;t su= pport edit-and-continue. Everything else looked good to me in kdevelop. I&#= 39;ll definitely give it a bit more time. Sadly there seems to be no push f= or D in kdevelop though :(</div> </div></div></div> --047d7b472078be38b804e6c72ca7--
Sep 19 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Manu wrote:
 Edit-and-continue is what MS calls the obvious extension from 
 incremental
 linking where you can re-link your exe while it's running and 
 paused in a
 debugger, and then continue debugging the current process with 
 the new exe
 after it links your code changes.
 it's one of visual studio's most valuable tools.

I see, I didn't know VS was capable of that, but it doesn't sound very useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile (which I'm sure is important to you folks at Remedy). I figured it was something along those lines though, so I tested editing a file while stopped on a breakpoint, and then running it and it didn't work. It's possible there's some switch i needed to hit, or that it would work with Clang/LLDB, but I doubt it (don't quote me on that though, you should ask the KDE folks).
 It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and 
 gui, but it's
 been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has 
 bothered to
 copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?)

I wouldn't know. You'll probably get a lot more information on what's available from asking the GCC, LLVM, and KDevelop IRCs.
 Debugging is the most important feature an IDE offers by far, 
 and it's only
 half-implemented if it doesn't support edit-and-continue. 
 Everything else
 looked good to me in kdevelop. I'll definitely give it a bit 
 more time.
 Sadly there seems to be no push for D in kdevelop though :(

Make sure to ask someone more informed than me before you write it off, but I'm guessing this is an area Linux dev tools are lacking in compared to Windows. In Gabe Newell's recent talk at LinuxCon, he mentioned Valve is interested in make Linux a more friendly environment for game developers. To that end, they're working on two different C/C++ debuggers (one for LLVM, I forget the other) and I'm guessing they wouldn't feel the need to do that unless they where unhappy with the current situation compared to what developers expect from Windows. Hopefully their efforts are fruitful in the near future. I've been using Linux and FOSS tools for nearly two years now, and I'm surprised I'd never heard about KDevelope until only a few months ago. It's a great IDE with a lot of nice features (even has Sublime-style text overview) and I hope D gets more attention from the KDev/Kate teams in the future.
Sep 19 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 04:53:18 UTC, F i L wrote:
 but it doesn't sound very useful for large projects ...

but it **does** sound very useful..
Sep 19 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c2275e5db0c304e6cb71ff
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 14:53, F i L <witte2008 gmail.com> wrote:

 Manu wrote:

 Edit-and-continue is what MS calls the obvious extension from incremental
 linking where you can re-link your exe while it's running and paused in a
 debugger, and then continue debugging the current process with the new exe
 after it links your code changes.
 it's one of visual studio's most valuable tools.

I see, I didn't know VS was capable of that, but it doesn't sound very useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile (which I'm sure is important to you folks at Remedy).

Actually, it's about a zillion times MORE useful for large projects. If the project is big, takes time to reboot/restart, and particularly in games where you might need to run to a particular part of a level and perform some bunch of actions to test the thing you're trying to debug in the first place. Remember, non make-based build systems typically perform reliable dependency checking, so if you tweak code in one file, it only compiles that one file... it's very fast. Also, incremental linking is precisely that, incremental, so if you only change one function, it only needs to append one function on the end of the exe. It's also very fast. Visual Studio is very fast, this is the main reason why it's awesome, and the industry standard :) In a tech company, there's nothing more valuable than your programmers time. I figured it was something along those lines though, so I tested editing a
 file while stopped on a breakpoint, and then running it and it didn't work.
 It's possible there's some switch i needed to hit, or that it would work
 with Clang/LLDB, but I doubt it (don't quote me on that though, you should
 ask the KDE folks).

It needs a reasonable amount of support from the compiler and presumably cooperation from the debugger too. If people have never heard of it, chances are, it doesn't exist :( It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it's
 been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to
 copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?)

I wouldn't know. You'll probably get a lot more information on what's available from asking the GCC, LLVM, and KDevelop IRCs.

Fair enough, but it's weird I should have to. Basic productivity tools like that should surely be known by users of the tools... I'll just go and continue to assume that Visual Studio is still the only viable option on any platform :P Debugging is the most important feature an IDE offers by far, and it's only
 half-implemented if it doesn't support edit-and-continue. Everything else
 looked good to me in kdevelop. I'll definitely give it a bit more time.
 Sadly there seems to be no push for D in kdevelop though :(

Make sure to ask someone more informed than me before you write it off, but I'm guessing this is an area Linux dev tools are lacking in compared to Windows.

Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing actually. How is it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for end-users) - can consistently be plagued by the worst dev tools out there? Surely someone in the past 30-40 years get's frustrated at some stage, looks at what MS have been doing for over a decade, and think "shit, that's awesome, I'd like that too!". I'm actually amazed that MS managed to invent it in the first place. You'd think that Linux should have gotten to it first... In Gabe Newell's recent talk at LinuxCon, he mentioned Valve is interested
 in make Linux a more friendly environment for game developers. To that end,
 they're working on two different C/C++ debuggers (one for LLVM, I forget
 the other) and I'm guessing they wouldn't feel the need to do that unless
 they where unhappy with the current situation compared to what developers
 expect from Windows. Hopefully their efforts are fruitful in the near
 future.

I agree, I'm really looking forward to what they bring to the table. I expect it's a lot of work though... they have over a decade of catching up to do. I've been using Linux and FOSS tools for nearly two years now, and I'm
 surprised I'd never heard about KDevelope until only a few months ago. It's
 a great IDE with a lot of nice features (even has Sublime-style text
 overview) and I hope D gets more attention from the KDev/Kate teams in the
 future.

Mmmm, I stumbled across it years ago, the first time I ever tried KDE; it must have been around feisty, hardy, or intrepid (they're the names that come to mind). I thought it looked promising, but it certainly 'wasn't there' at the time. --001a11c2275e5db0c304e6cb71ff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 20 September 2013 14:53, F i L <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a= href=3D"mailto:witte2008 gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">witte2008 gmail.com<= /a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Edit-and-continue is what MS calls the obvious extension from incremental<b= r> linking where you can re-link your exe while it&#39;s running and paused in= a<br> debugger, and then continue debugging the current process with the new exe<= br> after it links your code changes.<br> it&#39;s one of visual studio&#39;s most valuable tools.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I see, I didn&#39;t know VS was capable of that, but it doesn&#39;t sound v= ery useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile (which I&= #39;m sure is important to you folks at Remedy).<br></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>Actually, it&#39;s about a zillion times MORE useful for lar= ge projects. If the project is big, takes time to reboot/restart, and parti= cularly in games where you might need to run to a particular part of a leve= l and perform some bunch of actions to test the thing you&#39;re trying to = debug in the first place.</div> <div><br></div><div>Remember, non make-based build systems typically perfor= m reliable dependency checking, so if you tweak code in one file, it only c= ompiles that one file... it&#39;s very fast.</div><div>Also, incremental li= nking is precisely that, incremental, so if you only change one function, i= t only needs to append one function on the end of the exe. It&#39;s also ve= ry fast.</div> <div>Visual Studio is very fast, this is the main reason why it&#39;s aweso= me, and the industry standard :)</div><div>In a tech company, there&#39;s n= othing more valuable than your programmers time.<br></div><div><br></div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I figured it was something along those lines though, so I tested editing a = file while stopped on a breakpoint, and then running it and it didn&#39;t w= ork. It&#39;s possible there&#39;s some switch i needed to hit, or that it = would work with Clang/LLDB, but I doubt it (don&#39;t quote me on that thou= gh, you should ask the KDE folks).</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>It needs a reasonable amount of support from the compil= er and presumably cooperation from the debugger too. If people have never h= eard of it, chances are, it doesn&#39;t exist :(</div><div><br></div><block= quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc= solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it&#39= ;s<br> been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to<br=

</blockquote> <br></div> I wouldn&#39;t know. You&#39;ll probably get a lot more information on what= &#39;s available from asking the GCC, LLVM, and KDevelop IRCs.</blockquote>= <div><br></div><div>Fair enough, but it&#39;s weird I should have to. Basic= productivity tools like that should surely be known by users of the tools.= ..</div> <div>I&#39;ll just go and continue to assume that Visual Studio is still th= e only viable option on any platform :P</div><div><br></div><blockquote cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa= dding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Debugging is the most important feature an IDE offers by far, and it&#39;s = only<br> half-implemented if it doesn&#39;t support edit-and-continue. Everything el= se<br> looked good to me in kdevelop. I&#39;ll definitely give it a bit more time.= <br> Sadly there seems to be no push for D in kdevelop though :(<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Make sure to ask someone more informed than me before you write it off, but= I&#39;m guessing this is an area Linux dev tools are lacking in compared t= o Windows.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Mmmm, a concept that I&#39;v= e always found completely amazing actually. How is it that Linux - truly an= OS for developers (certainly not for end-users) - can consistently be plag= ued by the worst dev tools out there?</div> <div>Surely someone in the past 30-40 years get&#39;s frustrated at some st= age, looks at what MS have been doing for over a decade, and think &quot;sh= it, that&#39;s awesome, I&#39;d like that too!&quot;.</div><div>I&#39;m act= ually amazed that MS managed to invent it in the first place. You&#39;d thi= nk that Linux should have gotten to it first...</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> In Gabe Newell&#39;s recent talk at LinuxCon, he mentioned Valve is interes= ted in make Linux a more friendly environment for game developers. To that = end, they&#39;re working on two different C/C++ debuggers (one for LLVM, I = forget the other) and I&#39;m guessing they wouldn&#39;t feel the need to d= o that unless they where unhappy with the current situation compared to wha= t developers expect from Windows. Hopefully their efforts are fruitful in t= he near future.<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree, I&#39;m really looking forward to= what they bring to the table. I expect it&#39;s a lot of work though... th= ey have over a decade of catching up to do.</div><div><br></div><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli= d;padding-left:1ex"> I&#39;ve been using Linux and FOSS tools for nearly two years now, and I&#3= 9;m surprised I&#39;d never heard about KDevelope until only a few months a= go. It&#39;s a great IDE with a lot of nice features (even has Sublime-styl= e text overview) and I hope D gets more attention from the KDev/Kate teams = in the future.<br> </blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D= "gmail_extra">Mmmm, I stumbled across it years ago, the first time I ever t= ried KDE; it must have been around feisty, hardy, or intrepid (they&#39;re = the names that come to mind).</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I thought it looked promising, but it certainly = &#39;wasn&#39;t there&#39; at the time.</div></div> --001a11c2275e5db0c304e6cb71ff--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "PauloPinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 07:16:09 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 20 September 2013 14:53, F i L <witte2008 gmail.com> wrote:

 ...

It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it's
 been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has 
 bothered to
 copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?)



This type of workflow already existed in non C languages before. Microsoft just brought them into C land.
 ...

 Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing 
 actually. How is
 it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for 
 end-users) -
 can consistently be plagued by the worst dev tools out there?
 Surely someone in the past 30-40 years get's frustrated at some 
 stage,
 looks at what MS have been doing for over a decade, and think 
 "shit, that's
 awesome, I'd like that too!".
 I'm actually amazed that MS managed to invent it in the first 
 place. You'd
 think that Linux should have gotten to it first...

Because many still use the system as we were back in the 70's and UNIX System V was the latest version. Even though we have nice GUIs since the mid-80's.
 In Gabe Newell's recent talk at LinuxCon, he mentioned Valve is 
 interested
 in make Linux a more friendly environment for game developers. 
 To that end,
 they're working on two different C/C++ debuggers (one for 
 LLVM, I forget
 the other) and I'm guessing they wouldn't feel the need to do 
 that unless
 they where unhappy with the current situation compared to what 
 developers
 expect from Windows. Hopefully their efforts are fruitful in 
 the near
 future.

I agree, I'm really looking forward to what they bring to the table. I expect it's a lot of work though... they have over a decade of catching up to do.

There are nice debuggers, like TotalView for example. But proprietary software is evil. :)
 I've been using Linux and FOSS tools for nearly two years now, 
 and I'm
 surprised I'd never heard about KDevelope until only a few 
 months ago. It's
 a great IDE with a lot of nice features (even has 
 Sublime-style text
 overview) and I hope D gets more attention from the KDev/Kate 
 teams in the
 future.


KDevelop and KDE always suffered a big push back from Linux and BSD developers, because of their C++ roots. Back when I did a few contributions to GTKmm, the GNOME community used to ostracize the project because it was being done in C++. There used to exist a few big C vs C++ flamewars back then KDevelop was always seen as an IDE for KDE developers, nothing else. I always got the feeling C++ was better received by developers targeting commercial UNIX systems, than the ones living in BSD/Linux land. -- Paulo
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--e89a8ff1bf9aefbbb404e6cf38ec
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 21:20, Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> wrote:

 On 2013-09-20 02:10:30 +0000, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> said:

  It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it's
 been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to
 copy it? (assuming it was invented by MS?)

Apple had Fix-and-continue when Xcode 1.0 replaced Project Builder ten years ago. It was abandoned in Xcode 4. I'm not sure how reliable it was, but I remember having played with it when it was new but not bothering much later. I guess the feature not being completely reliable, moving the toolchain from gcc to clang, and code signatures being required when running iOS apps all contributed to make the feature go away. Perhaps they'll revive that feature now that their toolchain is more stable. File enhancement requests on Apple's bug tracker if you want to put some pressure on them to resurrect the feature.

Good to know it has been done elsewhere. Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in XCode? In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless. --e89a8ff1bf9aefbbb404e6cf38ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On 20 September 2013 21:20, Michel Fortin <span dir= =3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michel.fortin michelf.ca" target=3D"_blank">= michel.fortin michelf.ca</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail= _extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 2013-09-20 02:10:30 +00= 00, Manu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:turkeyman gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">turke= yman gmail.com</a>&gt; said:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> It requires support from various stages in the pipeline and gui, but it&#39= ;s<br> been available for a decade from MS. Surely someone else has bothered to<br=

</blockquote> <br></div> Apple had Fix-and-continue when Xcode 1.0 replaced Project Builder ten year= s ago. It was abandoned in Xcode 4. I&#39;m not sure how reliable it was, b= ut I remember having played with it when it was new but not bothering much = later.<br> <br> I guess the feature not being completely reliable, moving the toolchain fro= m gcc to clang, and code signatures being required when running iOS apps al= l contributed to make the feature go away. Perhaps they&#39;ll revive that = feature now that their toolchain is more stable. File enhancement requests = on Apple&#39;s bug tracker if you want to put some pressure on them to resu= rrect the feature.</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>Good to know it has been done elsewhere.</div><div>Can = you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in XCode= ?</div><div>In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and t= hen when you press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (bu= ilding), and then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless= .</div> </div></div></div> --e89a8ff1bf9aefbbb404e6cf38ec--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 07:16:09 UTC, Manu wrote:
 Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing 
 actually. How is
 it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for 
 end-users) -
 can consistently be plagued by the worst dev tools out there?
 Surely someone in the past 30-40 years get's frustrated at some 
 stage,
 looks at what MS have been doing for over a decade, and think 
 "shit, that's
 awesome, I'd like that too!".
 I'm actually amazed that MS managed to invent it in the first 
 place. You'd
 think that Linux should have gotten to it first...

I guess there are 2 main reasons: 1) culture - many of programmers who could have addressed that stick to rather old-school development process and don't feel demand for such stuff. For example, when I have tried VS and found that feature I thought "wow, neat". But I am only using debugger if something crashes, relying on logging facilities otherwise -> forgot about it next day until you have mentioned it in this thread :) 2) lack of large projects (relatively to Windows). In smaller you can always just recompile module in question so the benefit is not that huge (and there are always other things to spend time on). Also it needs to be a collaboration between compiler, linker and IDE and stuff like that is always tricky in uncontrolled development environment ;)
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Wyatt" <wyatt.epp gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 07:16:09 UTC, Manu wrote:
 [...]
 It needs a reasonable amount of support from the compiler and 
 presumably cooperation from the debugger too. If people have
 never heard of it, chances are, it doesn't exist :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U98rhV6wONo (slides: http://llvm.org/devmtg/2012-04-12/Slides/Manuel_Klimek.pdf) Lot of potential here, even for a die-hard Vim user like myself.
 Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing 
 actually. How is it that Linux - truly an OS for developers
 (certainly not for end-users) - can consistently be plagued by
 the worst dev tools out there? Surely someone in the past 30-40
 years get's frustrated at some stage, looks at what MS have
 been doing for over a decade, and think "shit, that's awesome,
 I'd like that too!". I'm actually amazed that MS managed to
 invent it in the first place. You'd think that Linux should have
 gotten to it first...

toolchain is the de facto standard for working in Linux and other Unixen. If you've ever encountered a GNU project's general attitude toward patches and ideas from "outsiders", the concerns presented in this SO answer might offer some clarity as to why it's taken so long: http://stackoverflow.com/a/4440794/432364 In short: getting all the people involved to agree on answers to all these questions is sort of a hard problem. (Though it looks like "Fix-and-continue" was added to the GDB roadmap about a year ago: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/cauldron2012?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=jkratoch.pdf)
 I agree, I'm really looking forward to what they bring to the 
 table. I expect it's a lot of work though... they have over a
 decade of catching up to do.

appears. Of course, it's also a matter of integration and coordination across multiple projects. There are, occasionally, advantages to monolithic vertically-integrated dictatorships. -Wyatt
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c335605066e004e6d21454
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 21:53, dennis luehring <dl.soluz gmx.net> wrote:

 Am 20.09.2013 13:46, schrieb Manu:

  Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in
 XCode?
 In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when
 you
 press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and
 then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.

but that works only good if your design is very very interface oriented - i've never touched a project where it worked properbly

Can you elaborate what you mean? I would say I avoid 'interfaces' like the plague... depending what you mean. It's always worked great for me. --001a11c335605066e004e6d21454 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 20 September 2013 21:53, dennis luehring <span dir=3D"l= tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dl.soluz gmx.net" target=3D"_blank">dl.soluz gmx.= net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail= _quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Am 20.09.2013 13:46, schrieb Manu:<div class=3D"im"><br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Good to know it has been done elsewhere.<br> Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in<b= r> XCode?<br> In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you= <br> press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and<= br> then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> but that works only good if your design is very very interface oriented - i= &#39;ve never touched a project where it worked properbly<br></blockquote><= div><br></div><div>Can you elaborate what you mean?</div><div>I would say I= avoid &#39;interfaces&#39; like the plague... depending what you mean. It&= #39;s always worked great for me.</div> </div></div></div> --001a11c335605066e004e6d21454--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0122a79aa9e26a04e6d2a192
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 23:22, Wyatt <wyatt.epp gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 07:16:09 UTC, Manu wrote:

 [...]

 It needs a reasonable amount of support from the compiler and presumably
 cooperation from the debugger too. If people have
 never heard of it, chances are, it doesn't exist :(

  Google has been hitting close to this:

http://llvm.org/devmtg/2012-**04-12/Slides/Manuel_Klimek.pdf<http://llvm.org/devmtg/2012-04-12/Slides/Manuel_Klimek.pdf> **) Lot of potential here, even for a die-hard Vim user like myself.

... I didn't see him mention it at all. However he did mention lots of useful things. It looks like finally there are some people interested in closing the gap between VS. Clang is a super exciting piece of C/C++ technology. Why is it that they are so innovative when GCC is basically stagnant for ages? Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing actually. How is
 it that Linux - truly an OS for developers
 (certainly not for end-users) - can consistently be plagued by
 the worst dev tools out there? Surely someone in the past 30-40
 years get's frustrated at some stage, looks at what MS have
 been doing for over a decade, and think "shit, that's awesome,
 I'd like that too!". I'm actually amazed that MS managed to
 invent it in the first place. You'd think that Linux should have
 gotten to it first...

  Part of this would seem to be the simple fact that the GNU

Unixen. If you've ever encountered a GNU project's general attitude toward patches and ideas from "outsiders", the concerns presented in this SO answer might offer some clarity as to why it's taken so long: http://stackoverflow.com/a/**4440794/432364<http://stackoverflow.com/a/4440794/432364>

Sadly, I don't think that guy who responded actually knew much about it. He was making it sound harder than it is, and most of the questions/problems he raised are known and/or solved already by MS. The point is, there's a perfectly good working example, and it's well understood how it works. (but apparently he didn't read up on it at all) In short: getting all the people involved to agree on answers to
 all these questions is sort of a hard problem.
 (Though it looks like "Fix-and-continue" was added to the GDB
 roadmap about a year ago:
 http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/**cauldron2012?action=**AttachFile&do=get&target=*
 *jkratoch.pdf<http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/cauldron2012?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=jkratoch.pdf>
 )

Huzzah! Better late than never I guess... I'm actually wondering if the recent movement of ex-windows dev's towards things like android/iphone/web/etc, is fueling a whole bunch of new voices behind the rubbish *nix tooling. A massive industry of users who have for the longest time been perfectly happy with VS, are now having to find new tools for prevailing non-MS platforms, and becoming frustrated in the process. (I can refer to rant's and complaints from countless (ex-)colleagues, perhaps numbering well into the hundreds) I agree, I'm really looking forward to what they bring to the table. I
 expect it's a lot of work though... they have over a
 decade of catching up to do.

  Per the links above, they might be closer than it initially

coordination across multiple projects. There are, occasionally, advantages to monolithic vertically-integrated dictatorships.

LLVM would seem to have the best shot at it. Given the current trajectory, I'm optimistic I can abandon VS in maybe 2-3 years... Don't get me wrong, there's loads of things wrong with VS. I'm not married to it, it's actually crap in lots of ways, but it just has so many productivity features that I consider absolutely non-negotiable. I prefer Clang/GCC the compilers right now. But VS is so much more than a compiler. --089e0122a79aa9e26a04e6d2a192 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 20 September 2013 23:22, Wyatt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a= href=3D"mailto:wyatt.epp gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wyatt.epp gmail.com<= /a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 07:16:09 UTC, Manu wrote:= <br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> [...]<div class=3D"im"><br> It needs a reasonable amount of support from the compiler and presumably co= operation from the debugger too. If people have<br> never heard of it, chances are, it doesn&#39;t exist :(<br> <br> </div></blockquote> Google has been hitting close to this:<br> <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DU98rhV6wONo" target=3D"_blank">= http://www.youtube.com/watch?<u></u>v=3DU98rhV6wONo</a> (slides:<br> <a href=3D"http://llvm.org/devmtg/2012-04-12/Slides/Manuel_Klimek.pdf" targ= et=3D"_blank">http://llvm.org/devmtg/2012-<u></u>04-12/Slides/Manuel_Klimek= .pdf</a><u></u>)<br> Lot of potential here, even for a die-hard Vim user like myself.</blockquot= e><div><br></div><div>... I didn&#39;t see him mention it at all. However h= e did mention lots of useful things.</div><div>It looks like finally there = are some people interested in closing the gap between VS.</div> <div>Clang is a super exciting piece of C/C++ technology. Why is it that th= ey are so innovative when GCC is basically stagnant for ages?</div><div><br=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=

<div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Mmmm, a concept that I&#39;ve always found completely amazing actually. How= is it that Linux - truly an OS for developers<br> (certainly not for end-users) - can consistently be plagued by<br> the worst dev tools out there? Surely someone in the past 30-40<br> years get&#39;s frustrated at some stage, looks at what MS have<br> been doing for over a decade, and think &quot;shit, that&#39;s awesome,<br> I&#39;d like that too!&quot;. I&#39;m actually amazed that MS managed to<br=

gotten to it first...<br> <br> </blockquote></div> Part of this would seem to be the simple fact that the GNU<br> toolchain is the de facto standard for working in Linux and other<br> Unixen. =C2=A0If you&#39;ve ever encountered a GNU project&#39;s general<br=

br> presented in this SO answer might offer some clarity as to why<br> it&#39;s taken so long:<br> <a href=3D"http://stackoverflow.com/a/4440794/432364" target=3D"_blank">htt= p://stackoverflow.com/a/<u></u>4440794/432364</a></blockquote><div><br></di= v><div>Sadly, I don&#39;t think that guy who responded actually knew much a= bout it. He was making it sound harder than it is, and most of the question= s/problems he raised are known and/or solved already by MS.</div> <div>The point is, there&#39;s a perfectly good working example, and it&#39= ;s well understood how it works. (but apparently he didn&#39;t read up on i= t at all)</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma= rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> In short: getting all the people involved to agree on answers to<br> all these questions is sort of a hard problem.<br> (Though it looks like &quot;Fix-and-continue&quot; was added to the GDB<br> roadmap about a year ago:<br> <a href=3D"http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/cauldron2012?action=3DAttachFile&;do= =3Dget&amp;target=3Djkratoch.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki= /<u></u>cauldron2012?action=3D<u></u>AttachFile&amp;do=3Dget&amp;target=3D<= u></u>jkratoch.pdf</a>)</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>Huzzah! Better late than never I guess...</div><div>I&#= 39;m actually wondering if the recent movement of ex-windows dev&#39;s towa= rds things like android/iphone/web/etc, is fueling a whole bunch of new voi= ces behind the rubbish *nix tooling.</div> <div>A massive industry of users who have for the longest time been perfect= ly happy with VS, are now having to find new tools for prevailing non-MS pl= atforms, and becoming frustrated in the process. (I can refer to rant&#39;s= and complaints from countless (ex-)colleagues, perhaps numbering well into= the hundreds)</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I agree, I&#39;m really looking forward to what they bring to the table. I = expect it&#39;s a lot of work though... they have over a<br> decade of catching up to do.<br> <br> </blockquote></div> Per the links above, they might be closer than it initially<br> appears. =C2=A0Of course, it&#39;s also a matter of integration and<br> coordination across multiple projects. =C2=A0There are, occasionally,<br> advantages to monolithic vertically-integrated dictatorships.</blockquote><= div><br></div><div>LLVM would seem to have the best shot at it. Given the c= urrent trajectory, I&#39;m optimistic I can abandon VS in maybe 2-3 years..= .</div> <div>Don&#39;t get me wrong, there&#39;s loads of things wrong with VS. I&#= 39;m not married to it, it&#39;s actually crap in lots of ways, but it just= has so many productivity features that I consider absolutely non-negotiabl= e.</div> <div>I prefer Clang/GCC the compilers right now. But VS is so much more tha= n a compiler.</div></div></div></div> --089e0122a79aa9e26a04e6d2a192--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c1c93a89a68904e6d2ac99
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 20 September 2013 23:36, Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> wrote:

 On 2013-09-20 11:46:34 +0000, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> said:

  Good to know it has been done elsewhere.
 Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in
 XCode?

I think it sometime failed to patch the executable, thus forcing a full rebuild and a relaunch. Perhaps just a little too often to be useful? I wasn't working on anything where avoiding a full rebuild was really useful, so I never really used it.

In MSC/VS, this only really happens when you change a public struct. You can't really change the structure of heap-allocated memory. Basically anything else is fine though. If you're tweaking code, you rarely want to re-structure your data. And it's easy to understand what you've done, and why it says "a rebuild is required" for certain changes. In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you
 press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and
 then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.

Same thing. Press Fix-and-continue instead of Continue, it rebuilds and then it continues running with the new code. -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca

--001a11c1c93a89a68904e6d2ac99 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 20 September 2013 23:36, Michel Fortin <span dir=3D"ltr= ">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michel.fortin michelf.ca" target=3D"_blank">michel.= fortin michelf.ca</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 2013-09-20 11:46:34 +00= 00, Manu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:turkeyman gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">turke= yman gmail.com</a>&gt; said:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Good to know it has been done elsewhere.<br> Can you recall any ways in which it was unreliable? How did you use it in<b= r> XCode?<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I think it sometime failed to patch the executable, thus forcing a full reb= uild and a relaunch. Perhaps just a little too often to be useful? I wasn&#= 39;t working on anything where avoiding a full rebuild was really useful, s= o I never really used it.</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>In MSC/VS, this only really happens when you change a p= ublic struct. You can&#39;t really change the structure of heap-allocated m= emory. Basically anything else is fine though.</div><div>If you&#39;re twea= king code, you rarely want to re-structure your data. And it&#39;s easy to = understand what you&#39;ve done, and why it says &quot;a rebuild is require= d&quot; for certain changes.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> In VS, you break/pause somewhere, make some code changes, and then when you= <br> press F10 (step), or F5 (continue), it takes a few seconds (building), and<= br> then it just continues with the new code. Pretty much seamless.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Same thing. Press Fix-and-continue instead of Continue, it rebuilds and the= n it continues running with the new code.<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class= =3D"h5"><br> <br> -- <br> Michel Fortin<br> <a href=3D"mailto:michel.fortin michelf.ca" target=3D"_blank">michel.fortin= michelf.ca</a><br> <a href=3D"http://michelf.ca" target=3D"_blank">http://michelf.ca</a><br> <br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div> --001a11c1c93a89a68904e6d2ac99--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Manu wrote:
 I see, I didn't know VS was capable of that, but it doesn't 
 sound very
 useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile 
 (which I'm
 sure is important to you folks at Remedy).

Actually, it's about a zillion times MORE useful for large projects. If the project is big, takes time to reboot/restart, and particularly in games where you might need to run to a particular part of a level and perform some bunch of actions to test the thing you're trying to debug in the first place.

Yes, I understand and agree. I made a typo. I meant to say: "..but it **does** sound very useful for large projects.."
 Fair enough, but it's weird I should have to. Basic 
 productivity tools like
 that should surely be known by users of the tools...
 I'll just go and continue to assume that Visual Studio is still 
 the only viable option on any platform :P

Well, again, this isn't my area of experience. Professionally, I spend most my time in Kate/Inkscape/Gimp/Krita/Blender working on front-end web development & graphics art. I have a long history of personal Direct3D/OpenGL projects and game logic, but in recent years that has been in C# and D (and some Nimrod), and It's been months since I've really had time to spend on anything there. That said, based on other's responses so far, my bet is that no Linux has these features you need, yet. So your assumptions about VS are probably correct.
 Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing 
 actually. How is
 it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for 
 end-users) -

This I actually disagree with that on a couple of levels. First, "edit and continue" is really only a absolute necessity for the AAA game industry (and some others).. since the ability to make changes without having to re-navigate the game to the area being effected is a crucial time saver. Linux hasn't really been a consumer platform before Android, and Android most games (especially in the earlier days) a simple enough that doesn't matter as much. Not to mention you can develop Android apps on non-Linux platforms just fine. So Linux hasn't really *needed* the ability to edit-and-continue until just now, when Android-based systems are becoming more powerful, and Valve is planning it's migration to Linux. Any company assessing the development cost of implementing the features into the tool-chains probably came to the conclusion it wasn't worth the effort. Second, Linux is quickly becoming a platform that's fully fit for end-users. I've installed Gnome & Unity systems on my friends and family's computers, and for the most part they where very comfortable with the overall experience - going so far as to praise it as an "upgrade" in the cases where XP SP3 ate all their outdated computer's ram, and Linux did not. New distro's like Elementary OS present a very balanced and user-friendly desktop environment as well. Linux can also be very pretty and feature-rich, and, as a geek, I like the available choice in DEs Linux offers rather than being stuck with the sometimes unsavory "advancements" Windows makes in their design (i'm looking at you, Windows 8). Here is a screenshot of my computer: http://reign-studios.com/screenshots/arch-linux-screenshot.png I would have a hard time taking you seriously if you claim that isn't a rather pretty environment ;-) And for features, I have a multi-monitor/multi-resolution AMD Catalyst setup with a HD 7850 (a worse-case scenario for X11 drivers), and what's funny is that the art tools I use (Blender, Krita, MyPaint, Inkscape) actually run much faster on Linux than Windows (mostly because it's their target platform). KDE works great with AMD Tear-free desktop, so no vsync or lags. So I am very happy with Linux as a platform in general. There are still horror stories to be sure, but I think the biggest hurdle Linux faces today is simply the fact that it doesn't run Windows software or come pre-installed on laptops at Walmart.. (the corner cases exist because there aren't enough consumers worth supporting).. It will take a massive amount of advertising to sell Linux as a consumer alternative to Mac and Windows (and it will require being sold like Mac, where the OS is sold with sleek hardware that's drivers functions well with it). So far, only Google has been able to accomplish this, but hopefully Valve inadvertently helps Linux Desktop adoption as well by encouraging it as a gaming platform.
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0122a79a6939e704e6da1fdf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 21 September 2013 07:06, F i L <witte2008 gmail.com> wrote:

 Manu wrote:

 I see, I didn't know VS was capable of that, but it doesn't sound very
 useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile (which I'm
 sure is important to you folks at Remedy).

Actually, it's about a zillion times MORE useful for large projects. If the project is big, takes time to reboot/restart, and particularly in games where you might need to run to a particular part of a level and perform some bunch of actions to test the thing you're trying to debug in the first place.

Yes, I understand and agree. I made a typo. I meant to say: "..but it **does** sound very useful for large projects.." Fair enough, but it's weird I should have to. Basic productivity tools
 like
 that should surely be known by users of the tools...
 I'll just go and continue to assume that Visual Studio is still the only
 viable option on any platform :P

Well, again, this isn't my area of experience. Professionally, I spend most my time in Kate/Inkscape/Gimp/Krita/**Blender working on front-end web development & graphics art. I have a long history of personal Direct3D/OpenGL projects and game logic, but in recent years that has been in C# and D (and some Nimrod), and It's been months since I've really had time to spend on anything there. That said, based on other's responses so far, my bet is that no Linux has these features you need, yet. So your assumptions about VS are probably correct. Mmmm, a concept that I've always found completely amazing actually. How is
 it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for end-users) -

This I actually disagree with that on a couple of levels. First, "edit and continue" is really only a absolute necessity for the AAA game industry (and some others).. since the ability to make changes without having to re-navigate the game to the area being effected is a crucial time saver. Linux hasn't really been a consumer platform before Android, and Android most games (especially in the earlier days) a simple enough that doesn't matter as much. Not to mention you can develop Android apps on non-Linux platforms just fine.

It's certainly missed in my professional environment, but even outside that, it's still super handy and saves a lot of time. Particularly if you are in the habit of using it. Do you remember when you first got a mouse with a mouse wheel? You thought it was kinda cool, but I'll bet you didn't use it that much... you weren't in the habit of it. Have you tried to use a mouse without a mouse wheel recently? ... it's like that. So Linux hasn't really *needed* the ability to edit-and-continue until just
 now, when Android-based systems are becoming more powerful, and Valve is
 planning it's migration to Linux. Any company assessing the development
 cost of implementing the features into the tool-chains probably came to the
 conclusion it wasn't worth the effort.

No one *needs* to save their time and energy. It's just nice, and once you're in the habit of not wasting time, wasting time seems like an annoying waste of time ;) Second, Linux is quickly becoming a platform that's fully fit for
 end-users. I've installed Gnome & Unity systems on my friends and family's
 computers, and for the most part they where very comfortable with the
 overall experience - going so far as to praise it as an "upgrade" in the
 cases where XP SP3 ate all their outdated computer's ram, and Linux did
 not. New distro's like Elementary OS present a very balanced and
 user-friendly desktop environment as well.

I agree... if they work (refer to my auto-update fail the other day). Linux UI still feels largely like a facade to me. If ANYTHING goes wrong, you are back at square 1, if you're not an expert, you probably can't fix it. But it's definitely getting there. Linux can also be very pretty and feature-rich, and, as a geek, I like the
 available choice in DEs Linux offers rather than being stuck with the
 sometimes unsavory "advancements" Windows makes in their design (i'm
 looking at you, Windows 8).

Yeah, maybe. I personally couldn't care less. I almost always use the default on any system. Here is a screenshot of my computer:
 http://reign-studios.com/**screenshots/arch-linux-**screenshot.png<http://reign-studios.com/screenshots/arch-linux-screenshot.png>

 I would have a hard time taking you seriously if you claim that isn't a
 rather pretty environment ;-)

It looks basically identical to my default mint15 install... ? Dunno, doesn't really affect me. And for features, I have a multi-monitor/multi-resolution AMD Catalyst
 setup with a HD 7850 (a worse-case scenario for X11 drivers), and what's
 funny is that the art tools I use (Blender, Krita, MyPaint, Inkscape)
 actually run much faster on Linux than Windows (mostly because it's their
 target platform). KDE works great with AMD Tear-free desktop, so no vsync
 or lags. So I am very happy with Linux as a platform in general.

 There are still horror stories to be sure, but I think the biggest hurdle
 Linux faces today is simply the fact that it doesn't run Windows software
 or come pre-installed on laptops at Walmart.. (the corner cases exist
 because there aren't enough consumers worth supporting).. It will take a
 massive amount of advertising to sell Linux as a consumer alternative to
 Mac and Windows (and it will require being sold like Mac, where the OS is
 sold with sleek hardware that's drivers functions well with it). So far,
 only Google has been able to accomplish this, but hopefully Valve
 inadvertently helps Linux Desktop adoption as well by encouraging it as a
 gaming platform.

I still think the biggest problem by far is that only an expert can fix it when anything goes wrong. And things *always* go wrong. It might seem trivial if you love computer OS's at the command line and text file level, but I think to most users it just appears to be unstable and tedious. It's getting better. I want it to succeed... I really do. --089e0122a79a6939e704e6da1fdf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 21 September 2013 07:06, F i L <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a= href=3D"mailto:witte2008 gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">witte2008 gmail.com<= /a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:= 1ex"> I see, I didn&#39;t know VS was capable of that, but it doesn&#39;t sound v= ery<br> useful for large projects which take a lot of time to compile (which I&#39;= m<br> sure is important to you folks at Remedy).<br> </blockquote> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> Actually, it&#39;s about a zillion times MORE useful for large projects. If= the<br> project is big, takes time to reboot/restart, and particularly in games<br> where you might need to run to a particular part of a level and perform<br> some bunch of actions to test the thing you&#39;re trying to debug in the f= irst<br> place.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> Yes, I understand and agree. I made a typo. I meant to say: &quot;..but it = **does** sound very useful for large projects..&quot;<br> <br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> Fair enough, but it&#39;s weird I should have to. Basic productivity tools = like<br> that should surely be known by users of the tools...<br></div> I&#39;ll just go and continue to assume that Visual Studio is still the onl= y viable option on any platform :P<br> </blockquote> <br> Well, again, this isn&#39;t my area of experience. Professionally, I spend = most my time in Kate/Inkscape/Gimp/Krita/<u></u>Blender working on front-en= d web development &amp; graphics art. I have a long history of personal Dir= ect3D/OpenGL projects and game logic, but in recent years that has been in = C# and D (and some Nimrod), and It&#39;s been months since I&#39;ve really = had time to spend on anything there.<br> <br> That said, based on other&#39;s responses so far, my bet is that no Linux h= as these features you need, yet. So your assumptions about VS are probably = correct.<div class=3D"im"><br> <br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Mmmm, a concept that I&#39;ve always found completely amazing actually. How= is<br> it that Linux - truly an OS for developers (certainly not for end-users) -<= br> </blockquote> <br></div> This I actually disagree with that on a couple of levels.<br> <br> First, &quot;edit and continue&quot; is really only a absolute necessity fo= r the AAA game industry (and some others).. since the ability to make chang= es without having to re-navigate the game to the area being effected is a c= rucial time saver. Linux hasn&#39;t really been a consumer platform before = Android, and Android most games (especially in the earlier days) a simple e= nough that doesn&#39;t matter as much. Not to mention you can develop Andro= id apps on non-Linux platforms just fine.<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s certainly missed in my profession= al environment, but even outside that, it&#39;s still super handy and saves= a lot of time. Particularly if you are in the habit of using it.</div> <div>Do you remember when you first got a mouse with a mouse wheel? You tho= ught it was kinda cool, but I&#39;ll bet you didn&#39;t use it that much...= you weren&#39;t in the habit of it.</div><div>Have you tried to use a mous= e without a mouse wheel recently? ... it&#39;s like that.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So Linux hasn&#39;t really *needed* the ability to edit-and-continue until = just now, when Android-based systems are becoming more powerful, and Valve = is planning it&#39;s migration to Linux. Any company assessing the developm= ent cost of implementing the features into the tool-chains probably came to= the conclusion it wasn&#39;t worth the effort.<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>No one *needs* to save their time and ener= gy. It&#39;s just nice, and once you&#39;re in the habit of not wasting tim= e, wasting time seems like an annoying waste of time ;)</div><div><br></div=

x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Second, Linux is quickly becoming a platform that&#39;s fully fit for end-u= sers. I&#39;ve installed Gnome &amp; Unity systems on my friends and family= &#39;s computers, and for the most part they where very comfortable with th= e overall experience - going so far as to praise it as an &quot;upgrade&quo= t; in the cases where XP SP3 ate all their outdated computer&#39;s ram, and= Linux did not. New distro&#39;s like Elementary OS present a very balanced= and user-friendly desktop environment as well.<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree... if they work (refer to my auto-= update fail the other day).</div><div>Linux UI still feels largely like a f= acade to me. If ANYTHING goes wrong, you are back at square 1, if you&#39;r= e not an expert, you probably can&#39;t fix it.</div> <div>But it&#39;s definitely getting there.</div><div><br></div><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli= d;padding-left:1ex"> Linux can also be very pretty and feature-rich, and, as a geek, I like the = available choice in DEs Linux offers rather than being stuck with the somet= imes unsavory &quot;advancements&quot; Windows makes in their design (i&#39= ;m looking at you, Windows 8).<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, maybe. I personally couldn&#39;t car= e less. I almost always use the default on any system.</div><div><br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Here is a screenshot of my computer:<br> <a href=3D"http://reign-studios.com/screenshots/arch-linux-screenshot.png" = target=3D"_blank">http://reign-studios.com/<u></u>screenshots/arch-linux-<u=
</u>screenshot.png</a><br>

I would have a hard time taking you seriously if you claim that isn&#39;t a= rather pretty environment ;-)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It looks= basically identical to my default mint15 install... ? Dunno, doesn&#39;t r= eally affect me.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> And for features, I have a multi-monitor/multi-resolution AMD Catalyst setu= p with a HD 7850 (a worse-case scenario for X11 drivers), and what&#39;s fu= nny is that the art tools I use (Blender, Krita, MyPaint, Inkscape) actuall= y run much faster on Linux than Windows (mostly because it&#39;s their targ= et platform). KDE works great with AMD Tear-free desktop, so no vsync or la= gs. So I am very happy with Linux as a platform in general.<br> <br> There are still horror stories to be sure, but I think the biggest hurdle L= inux faces today is simply the fact that it doesn&#39;t run Windows softwar= e or come pre-installed on laptops at Walmart.. (the corner cases exist bec= ause there aren&#39;t enough consumers worth supporting).. It will take a m= assive amount of advertising to sell Linux as a consumer alternative to Mac= and Windows (and it will require being sold like Mac, where the OS is sold= with sleek hardware that&#39;s drivers functions well with it). So far, on= ly Google has been able to accomplish this, but hopefully Valve inadvertent= ly helps Linux Desktop adoption as well by encouraging it as a gaming platf= orm.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I still think the b= iggest problem by far is that only an expert can fix it when anything goes = wrong. And things *always* go wrong. It might seem trivial if you love comp= uter OS&#39;s at the command line and text file level, but I think to most = users it just appears to be unstable and tedious.<br> It&#39;s getting better. I want it to succeed... I really do.</div></div> --089e0122a79a6939e704e6da1fdf--
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Manu wrote:
 It's certainly missed in my professional environment, but even 
 outside
 that, it's still super handy and saves a lot of time. 
 Particularly if you
 are in the habit of using it.
 Do you remember when you first got a mouse with a mouse wheel? 
 You thought
 it was kinda cool, but I'll bet you didn't use it that much... 
 you weren't
 in the habit of it.
 Have you tried to use a mouse without a mouse wheel recently? 
 ... it's like
 that.

Yes, I agree. My point wasn't that it isn't a convenience, only that linux tech companies with the ability to implement it probably haven't seen it as a worth-while effort (financially speaking) in the past, due to it not effecting their development practices as much as it may effects other industries (like major game creators). I hope, as I'm sure you do, that, due to Valve's interest in Linux, better debugging features will be seen as more of a priority. It will be a brighter day for Linux when engine designers of AAA game companies don't have anything to complain about when it comes to developing on Linux ;)
 Linux UI still feels largely like a facade to me. If ANYTHING 
 goes wrong,
 you are back at square 1, if you're not an expert, you probably 
 can't fix it.

I recommend trying Elementary OS sometime (also, keep an eye on Manjaro). There are surely more automatic self-correcting feature on Windows, but Linux is getting better here I think. There has simply been more man-hours put into consumer-level features on Windows.
 I still think the biggest problem by far is that only an expert 
 can fix it
 when anything goes wrong. And things *always* go wrong.

I think you may be exaggerating a bit. I've never had any outstanding issues with distro's like Unbuntu on my machine, but then, it's subject a lot to the quality of your drivers, which sometimes get neglected a bit due to linux's lack of popularity in the desktop consumer space. I've had good success installing on Intel laptops, for instance, and bad experience installing on AMD laptops. But I think you'd find the same was probably true (or worse) with Mac. Which is why I mentioned the only way to sell Linux would be to put it in a fancy box and paint it's face with some expensive advertising (just like Mac and Sony do with BSD, only someone needs to do it more openly). I do agree, there are some areas Linux needs more time to bake, the Display Server is a good example (and PulseAudio), also things like more user-friendly Software Centers. But projects like Wayland, Gnome, Ubuntu, and Elementary are doing good work, and there are some good improvements on the way in the next year or two I think.
Sep 20 2013
prev sibling parent Arjan <arjan ask.me> writes:
 This I actually disagree with that on a couple of levels.

 First, "edit and continue" is really only a absolute necessity for the  
 AAA
 game industry (and some others).. since the ability to make changes  
 without
 having to re-navigate the game to the area being effected is a crucial  
 time
 saver.


Surely not only for games and some others, I is really a very useful feature of MSVC debugging, which will save lots of precious time once one starts using it. I can attest to that. Another useful feature is the ease in which one might adjust the instruction pointer. I'm using those two quite often in concert, which is really a time(and ass)saver. For D to gain more traction (at least on the windows platforms) it has to have these kind of features. So I'm really happy to see what is happening twith visual-D!
 It's certainly missed in my professional environment, but even outside
 that, it's still super handy and saves a lot of time. Particularly if you
 are in the habit of using it.

+100
 Linux can also be very pretty and feature-rich, and, as a geek, I like  
 the
 available choice in DEs Linux offers rather than being stuck with the
 sometimes unsavory "advancements" Windows makes in their design (i'm
 looking at you, Windows 8).


Well you could give this a try: http://windows.kde.org/
 I still think the biggest problem by far is that only an expert can fix  
 it
 when anything goes wrong. And things *always* go wrong. It might seem
 trivial if you love computer OS's at the command line and text file  
 level,
 but I think to most users it just appears to be unstable and tedious.
 It's getting better. I want it to succeed... I really do.

Although I'm a long time FreeBSD/Linux and KDE user (my primairy OS's) I have to agree. There is a reason for the rise of Apple products. Most heard non techies comment: "It just works".
Sep 21 2013