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digitalmars.D - Looks like xbox one and ps4 both amd64

reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it mentioned 
here explicitly.

Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for 
us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 08:20:33 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it mentioned 
 here explicitly.

 Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for 
 us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!

Yeah, awesome news. Given that DMD itself probably will never support anything except x86(-64) so there is not much pressure to support other architectures in druntime. It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones also are shipping with x86. But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jaguar-cpu-examined/0116297
Jun 11 2013
parent Max Klyga <email domain.com> writes:
On 2013-06-12 06:40:05 +0000, Manu said:
 Personally, I think it's disappointing. x86's key advantage is being 
 able to run crappy desktop code fast.
 Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully tuned, 
 purpose-specific code.
 x86 uses MASSIVE amounts of its CPU realestate to tolerate crappy code. 
 I'd rather use that CPU realestate on more raw power, and put the 
 responsibility on the engines engineering merits to make the most of it.
 
 This move sets a low upper limit, and the bar will start high. I don't 
 anticipate you'll see much tier-ing between 1st gen -> 3rd/4th gen 
 games this time round.
 
 ARM might be better/more interesting than x86, but I actually still 
 think PPC is a good architecture for the purpose. VMX/SPU is still the 
 best SIMD unit.

I thought that the main motivation behind move to x86 was to utilize existing toolchains, alowing usage of great compilers and tools and not some arcane or old toolchain.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:39:00 +0200
"nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 08:20:33 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it mentioned 
 here explicitly.

 Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for 
 us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!

Yeah, awesome news. Given that DMD itself probably will never support anything except x86(-64) so there is not much pressure to support other architectures in druntime. It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones also are shipping with x86. But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jaguar-cpu-examined/0116297

Wow, given the abilities of the PS3 and 360, that article reads like the comments of a spoiled brat. I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. It damn near killed the PS3, which took Sony some major work to finally turn around. In any case, it is nice that they're using x86. Seems like a smart choice. I'll admit, when I first heard about it I was surprised at least one of them didn't go ARM, but x86 does seem to make more sense for a major games console at this particular point.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:52:09 -0400
Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:
 
 I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up
 pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. 

Ack, just saw the prices. I take back the above ;)
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 09:39:01 UTC, nazriel wrote:
 It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones 
 also are shipping with x86.

I have one myself, an Intel az-210. Impressive speed for a pretty cheap phone. I should really try getting D working on it somehow.
 But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs:
 http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jaguar-cpu-examined/0116297

I don't know about quirks, just general slowness. However, seeing as (at least the ps4 one) they are not stock versions, I'll reserve judgement until they get out to the public.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Benjamin Thaut <code benjamin-thaut.de> writes:
Am 11.06.2013 10:20, schrieb John Colvin:
 This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it mentioned here
 explicitly.

 Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for us as
 druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!

Well druntime/phobos highly depend on the operating system API and I highly doubt that the ps4 and xbox one will have a linux / windows api. So I don't think they will JustWork. Kind Regards Benjamin Thaut
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a113309cebeb10204deef48c4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 11 June 2013 20:52, Nick Sabalausky
<SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com>wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:39:00 +0200
 "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 08:20:33 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it mentioned
 here explicitly.

 Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for
 us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!

Yeah, awesome news. Given that DMD itself probably will never support anything except x86(-64) so there is not much pressure to support other architectures in druntime. It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones also are shipping with x86. But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs:

Wow, given the abilities of the PS3 and 360, that article reads like the comments of a spoiled brat.

Abilities? I think they're thoroughly uninteresting and totally underwhelming hardware. They're pretty weak. I wish they'd stuck with (multiple) ridiculously high clocked PPC's personally. I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up
 pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. It damn near killed
 the PS3, which took Sony some major work to finally turn around.

Indeed, they're obviously designed to be cheap this time... or they'd be better, and more interesting ;) In any case, it is nice that they're using x86. Seems like a smart
 choice. I'll admit, when I first heard about it I was surprised at
 least one of them didn't go ARM, but x86 does seem to make more
 sense for a major games console at this particular point.

Personally, I think it's disappointing. x86's key advantage is being able to run crappy desktop code fast. Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully tuned, purpose-specific code. x86 uses MASSIVE amounts of its CPU realestate to tolerate crappy code. I'd rather use that CPU realestate on more raw power, and put the responsibility on the engines engineering merits to make the most of it. This move sets a low upper limit, and the bar will start high. I don't anticipate you'll see much tier-ing between 1st gen -> 3rd/4th gen games this time round. ARM might be better/more interesting than x86, but I actually still think PPC is a good architecture for the purpose. VMX/SPU is still the best SIMD unit. --001a113309cebeb10204deef48c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On 11 June 2013 20:52, Nick Sabalausky <span dir=3D"ltr">&= lt;<a href=3D"mailto:SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com" target=3D"_blank"=
SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D=

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOE= nZb"><div class=3D"h5">On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:39:00 +0200<br> &quot;nazriel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spam dzfl.pl">spam dzfl.pl</a>&gt= ; wrote:<br> <br> &gt; On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 08:20:33 UTC, John Colvin wrote:<br> &gt; &gt; This has been known for a while, but I hadn&#39;t seen it mention= ed<br> &gt; &gt; here explicitly.<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good news for<b= r> &gt; &gt; us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!<br> &gt;<br> &gt; Yeah, awesome news.<br> &gt; Given that DMD itself probably will never support anything except<br> &gt; x86(-64) so there is not much pressure to support other<br> &gt; architectures in druntime.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones also<br> &gt; are shipping with x86.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs:<br> &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jagua= r-cpu-examined/0116297" target=3D"_blank">http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps= 4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jaguar-cpu-examined/0116297</a><br> <br> </div></div>Wow, given the abilities of the PS3 and 360, that article reads= like<br> the comments of a spoiled brat.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>A= bilities? I think they&#39;re thoroughly uninteresting and totally underwhe= lming hardware.</div><div style>They&#39;re pretty weak. I wish they&#39;d = stuck with (multiple) ridiculously high clocked PPC&#39;s personally.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up<br> pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. It damn near killed<br> the PS3, which took Sony some major work to finally turn around.<br></block= quote><div><br></div><div style>Indeed, they&#39;re obviously designed to b= e cheap this time... or they&#39;d be better, and more interesting ;)</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> In any case, it is nice that they&#39;re using x86. Seems like a smart<br> choice. I&#39;ll admit, when I first heard about it I was surprised at<br> least one of them didn&#39;t go ARM, but x86 does seem to make more<br> sense for a major games console at this particular point.<br></blockquote><= div><br></div><div style>Personally, I think it&#39;s disappointing. x86&#3= 9;s key advantage is being able to run crappy desktop code fast.</div> <div style>Games are not usually &#39;crappy desktop code&#39;, they&#39;re= carefully tuned, purpose-specific code.</div><div style>x86 uses MASSIVE a= mounts of its CPU realestate to tolerate crappy code. I&#39;d rather use th= at CPU realestate on more raw power, and put the responsibility on the engi= nes engineering merits to make the most of it.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>This move sets a low upper limit, and the b= ar will start high. I don&#39;t anticipate you&#39;ll see much tier-ing bet= ween 1st gen -&gt; 3rd/4th gen games this time round.</div><div style><br> </div><div style>ARM might be better/more interesting than x86, but I actua= lly still think PPC is a good architecture for the purpose. VMX/SPU is stil= l the best SIMD unit.</div></div></div></div> --001a113309cebeb10204deef48c4--
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Ron" <rd.hunt gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 at 06:40:20 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 11 June 2013 20:52, Nick Sabalausky
 <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com>wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:39:00 +0200
 "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 08:20:33 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 This has been known for a while, but I hadn't seen it 
 mentioned
 here explicitly.

 Both consoles are using amd jaguar cpus, which is good 
 news for
 us as druntime/phobos should in theory JustWork!

Yeah, awesome news. Given that DMD itself probably will never support anything except x86(-64) so there is not much pressure to support other architectures in druntime. It is really great opportunity. Some new Android smartphones also are shipping with x86. But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs:

Wow, given the abilities of the PS3 and 360, that article reads like the comments of a spoiled brat.

Abilities? I think they're thoroughly uninteresting and totally underwhelming hardware. They're pretty weak. I wish they'd stuck with (multiple) ridiculously high clocked PPC's personally. I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up
 pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. It damn 
 near killed
 the PS3, which took Sony some major work to finally turn 
 around.

Indeed, they're obviously designed to be cheap this time... or they'd be better, and more interesting ;) In any case, it is nice that they're using x86. Seems like a smart
 choice. I'll admit, when I first heard about it I was 
 surprised at
 least one of them didn't go ARM, but x86 does seem to make more
 sense for a major games console at this particular point.

Personally, I think it's disappointing. x86's key advantage is being able to run crappy desktop code fast. Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully tuned, purpose-specific code. x86 uses MASSIVE amounts of its CPU realestate to tolerate crappy code. I'd rather use that CPU realestate on more raw power, and put the responsibility on the engines engineering merits to make the most of it. This move sets a low upper limit, and the bar will start high. I don't anticipate you'll see much tier-ing between 1st gen -> 3rd/4th gen games this time round. ARM might be better/more interesting than x86, but I actually still think PPC is a good architecture for the purpose. VMX/SPU is still the best SIMD unit.

The Jaguar cores in the xbox/ps4 don't do much hand holding, they are more embedded chips then desktop targeted. Either way the interesting thing about the new consoles is that they are both HSA enabled, and the idea of being able to compile generic c/c++/d code and run it on the gpu without using special languages extensions(tho compiler support still needed) is what is interesting. Amd's HSAIL bytecode, hMMu, shared gpu/cpu memory, and cache coherent GPU make the consoles very interesting, even if all of these things will be in desktop machines shortly after.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:40:05 +1000
Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:

 On 11 June 2013 20:52, Nick Sabalausky
 <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com>wrote:
=20
 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:39:00 +0200
 "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> wrote:
 But there seem to be some quirks with those CPUs:

 http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ps4-and-xbox-one-s-amd-jaguar-cpu-exam=



 Wow, given the abilities of the PS3 and 360, that article reads like
 the comments of a spoiled brat.

Abilities? I think they're thoroughly uninteresting and totally underwhelming hardware. They're pretty weak. I wish they'd stuck with (multiple) ridiculously high clocked PPC's personally. =20

I don't doubt there's hardware out there with more raw power, but I'm talking "abilities" in terms of observable end results here. Consider for example Little Big Planet, the Cod: Modern Warfare series (yum, fish! ;)), the upcoming "Time and Eternity", or really just about anything involving Unreal Engine 3 (no offense intended to MAX-FX 3, of course, I just haven't actually tried Alan Wake). Hell, even Wind Waker, and that's previous generation. Any extra computational power available typically goes primarily to graphics (and some to physics and maybe some other things, too, but in most cases it's primarily graphics). But the thing is, good graphics has more to do with art direction than computational power. That was always true to a certain extent (the 16-bit Sonics and Marios were far better looking than most of the games on the N64/PS1/Sat), but with modern hardware it's much more true now than ever, and will only continue as hardware gets even more powerful. The end result is that we've already hit a point where increased hardware is only giving graphics increasingly marginal improvements: More resolution and texture detail, more triangles, improved shadows, etc. It's all just tweaking the details. And even that's relevant mainly just to the decreasing proportion of games that are going for a photorealistic or Pixar-like style. Things like Shank, Unfinished Swan, or Terraria (the #2 PSN game for last month) wouldn't benefit much from increased horsepower. Even the *#1* PSN game for last month, FarCry Blood Dragon (fantastic game, BTW), looks mostly like something off of the XBox 1 (the first XBox 1, not the upcoming new one). Granted, there are other things besides graphics that can still be improved with more raw power (ex, physics), but even for those it's still mostly just improving details at this point. Even if MS/Sony had gone with top-of-the-line hardware, there aren't a whole lot of truly significant things that would have opened the door for (such as maybe some gameplay based on good 3D fluid dynamics?), and even those things would only be applicable to a minority of titles. And I think the console manufactures are well aware of all this. Definitely Nintendo is, who has long since switched gears from wowing people with high-fidelity graphics to focus on providing fun games with original interfaces at much more reasonable prices. The troubles they had with this on the Wii mainly came from third parities reacting to the lack of focus graphics-crunching by shunning the system (and yet the Wii still managed alright). Sony's certainly taken note of the value of indie titles, which are definitely not power-hungry in most cases. And for any of the console manufacturers, it would be very difficult not to notice how much harder it's becoming for the computational-power-pushing AAA titles to flourish - increasingly expensive to develop, increasingly necessary to get huge sales numbers to stay profitable, increasing risk, and increasing competition from inexpensive indie and otherwise non-AAA-blockbuster titles.
 I think it sounds encouraging: It means the next gen might not end up
 pulling a 3DO on price like their predecessors did. It damn near
 killed the PS3, which took Sony some major work to finally turn
 around.

Indeed, they're obviously designed to be cheap this time... or they'd be better, and more interesting ;) =20

Yea, and I think it was necessary. Consider the mobile space: those things routinely pack in $600+ worth of hardware and can get away with it because it's at least partially subsidized by the nearly $100/mo cellular contracts many users pay. (Plus many of them can hook up to TVs and add-on gamepads). Console hardware has the benefit of not needing to be mobile, but they can't subsidize nearly as much as mobile can, so packing in truly advanced hardware that's significantly beyond what you can get in other devices would have led to a prohibitive price tag. Sony attempted that in the early days of the PS3 but (along with its developer-unfriendly nature) it damn near killed them until they revised the PS3 and did their best to reverse their strategy. The same strategy *did* kill the 3DO.
 In any case, it is nice that they're using x86. Seems like a smart
 choice. I'll admit, when I first heard about it I was surprised at
 least one of them didn't go ARM, but x86 does seem to make more
 sense for a major games console at this particular point.

Personally, I think it's disappointing. x86's key advantage is being able to run crappy desktop code fast. Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully tuned, purpose-specific code. x86 uses MASSIVE amounts of its CPU realestate to tolerate crappy code. I'd rather use that CPU realestate on more raw power, and put the responsibility on the engines engineering merits to make the most of it. =20 This move sets a low upper limit, and the bar will start high. I don't anticipate you'll see much tier-ing between 1st gen -> 3rd/4th gen games this time round. =20

Keep in mind, indie is *big* thing these days and I see no sign of its growth leveling off any time soon. (Even a lot of the AAA houses have started doing more games on an indie-like scale - the new Death Rally, for example ;) ). Combined with the fact that the console manufacturers have learned (the hard way, in some cases) that being developer-friendly is absolutely critical, and I think that makes x86 the prudent choice, even if it isn't the most powerful choice. =46rom your first DConf talk, it sounds like even your company has been reaping some benefits from this. If the X Bone (or XBox 3, or "second" XBox 1, or whatever the heck I should be calling it to disambiguate from the one I bought ten years ago) had been using ARM or PPC, it would have been harder (maybe even prohibitively so?) to integrate D when you did.
 ARM might be better/more interesting than x86, but I actually still
 think PPC is a good architecture for the purpose. VMX/SPU is still
 the best SIMD unit.
=20

I don't doubt that. Especially since I really wouldn't know anyway :) The last time I dealt with anything on that low-level, it was Parallax's Propeller microcontroller, which is clearly not even in the same ballpark. (A fun little device, though. An 8-core microcontroller on roughly the price point of the BASIC Stamp? Yes, please!)
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 6/12/13, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully tuned,
 purpose-specific code.

I'd rather programmers spend their time building cool games than fast games. Not everything has to be ultra-realistic-shiny-3D-lens-flair-ultra-optimized-60fps crap.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Klaim_=2D_Jo=C3=ABl_Lamotte?= <mjklaim gmail.com> writes:
--e89a8ff1c02a60e02c04defd3d02
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'd rather programmers spend their time building cool games than fast
 games. Not everything has to be
 ultra-realistic-shiny-3D-lens-flair-ultra-optimized-60fps crap.

Do you assume that non-realistic games don't need to have fast code? It's not a correct assumption. It depends on the game and ultra-realistic games are not the only ones who are better with fast code or 60fps. Basically, nothing can be generalized with games. Which is why more opportunities to optimize are always welcome. I suspect it's true for all kind of software in the end (even web services, in particular massive web services). Joel Lamotte --e89a8ff1c02a60e02c04defd3d02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Andrej Mitrovic <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h= ref=3D"mailto:andrej.mitrovich gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrej.mitrovic= h gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br> </div>I&#39;d rather programmers spend their time building cool games than = fast<br> games. Not everything has to be<br> ultra-realistic-shiny-3D-lens-flair-ultra-optimized-60fps crap.</blockquote=
</div><br>Do you assume that non-realistic games don&#39;t need to have fa=

It depends on the game and ultra-realistic games are not the only=C2=A0</d= iv> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">ones who are better with fast code or 60fps.</di= v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Basically= , nothing can be generalized with games. Which is why more opportunities to= optimize are always welcome.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I suspect it&#39;s true for all kind of software= in the end (even web services, in particular massive web services).</div><= div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Joel Lamotte= </div> </div> --e89a8ff1c02a60e02c04defd3d02--
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 01:10:34 +0200
Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> wrote:

 On 6/12/13, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully
 tuned, purpose-specific code.

I'd rather programmers spend their time building cool games than fast games. Not everything has to be ultra-realistic-shiny-3D-lens-flair-ultra-optimized-60fps crap.

Actually, I quite like 60Hz games ;) But that's been perfectly feasible for a long long time: Really the only reason they haven't all been running at 60Hz for the past 15 years is because graphical fidelity is often considered more important than bumping up from 30Hz to 60Hz. Not that I'm complaining about that. I can entirely understand the tradeoff of settling for 30Hz for the sake of a higher quality image. It's just not my preferred tradeoff - I'd normally prefer framerate. (Of course getting a *consistent* framerate can be difficult, but getting a higher one is fairly straightforward: Decrease the polygon/texture budget.) Although, there are a rare few games that manage top botch up the tradeoff horrifically. Ex: The PS3 versions of Sonic Unleashed and Splinter Cell frequently have absolutely *atrocious* framerates despite the fact that the versions for *less* powerful systems (Wii and the first XBox 1) run at consistently *good* framerates (Because for those versions, they didn't try to cram too much into each frame and overload the hardware). Actually, that always bugged the hell out of me: That the at-the-time "next-gen" PS3 versions actually ran vastly *worse* (barely even playable, in fact) than the versions on notably *less* powerful hardware. I know the PS3 is much more of a pain than the 360, but even still: Something was clearly managed wrong. Especially with the Sonic one which is heavily speed-oriented, therefore making framerate much more important (Not that Sonic Unleashed didn't have other big problems, though). In any case, yea I do agree with you: I'll have a fun, low-graphics game like Sound Shapes, Echochrome or last-gen Disgaea, over a graphics-heavy-but-ultra-dull game like Assassin's Creed or Heavy Rain any day. Related to that: My absolute favorite game developer quote (because I so strongly feel the same way) is from Johnathan Blow, creator of the absolutely fantastic Braid (which incidentally is also *not* a super-high-tech-graphics game): "I like games that are interesting, that give me something to think about or to be well-engaged in, that give me the benefit of the doubt as being an intelligent person. Fewer games like that are being made these days -- an awful lot of games are just about ushering the player through a fake experience, letting him win, making him feel like he is clever and strong without actually requiring him to be anything but a couch potato. I'm not interested in playing those games, and as a result of that (and other long-term design trends) these days there aren't many games that I enjoy." - From: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/09/25/joystiq-interview-blow-unravels-braid-in-post-mortem/
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:43:21 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Actually, I quite like 60Hz games ;) But that's been perfectly 
 feasible
 for a long long time: Really the only reason they haven't all 
 been
 running at 60Hz for the past 15 years is because graphical 
 fidelity is
 often considered more important than bumping up from 30Hz to 
 60Hz.

 Not that I'm complaining about that. I can entirely understand 
 the
 tradeoff of settling for 30Hz for the sake of a higher quality 
 image.
 It's just not my preferred tradeoff - I'd normally prefer 
 framerate.

 (Of course getting a *consistent* framerate can be difficult, 
 but
 getting a higher one is fairly straightforward: Decrease the
 polygon/texture budget.)

I love rage for that. If the engine don't have everything it needs, it render something with a lower quality in order to keep the framerate high. The game is really enjoyable and have very few lags.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com> writes:
You would get more power out of using another architecture, but I 
think being able to write the games in D is even more powerful. 
Plus, PS4 seems to smile on self-publishing. That's a big 
opportunity to shine as a rogue D games console developer.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:57:03 +0200
"deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> wrote:
 
 I love rage for that. If the engine don't have everything it 
 needs, it render something with a lower quality in order to keep 
 the framerate high. The game is really enjoyable and have very 
 few lags.

Really? That's pretty cool, I didn't know about that aspect of the engine. What's the game itself like? There's no demo so I haven't been able to try it (after Quake3 and Doom3 I'm hesitant to buy an id game without tying it first). But being a huge fan of everything id's ever done up through Quake 2, I can't help being extremely curious: What direction does it take the gameplay? Back to say, Quake 2, or does it expand on the gameplay of Doom 3, or something completely different?
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:01:38 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:57:03 +0200
 "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> wrote:
 
 I love rage for that. If the engine don't have everything it 
 needs, it render something with a lower quality in order to 
 keep the framerate high. The game is really enjoyable and have 
 very few lags.

Really? That's pretty cool, I didn't know about that aspect of the engine.

You can that here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I91AG2BhcI Obviously, this is an extreme example and you won't see that all the time during the game :D
 What's the game itself like? There's no demo so I haven't been 
 able
 to try it (after Quake3 and Doom3 I'm hesitant to buy an id 
 game without
 tying it first). But being a huge fan of everything id's ever 
 done up
 through Quake 2, I can't help being extremely curious: What 
 direction
 does it take the gameplay? Back to say, Quake 2, or does it 
 expand on
 the gameplay of Doom 3, or something completely different?

It is an fps. You find some moment where you can travel around with bugguy, do races and stuff, but the core of the game is really strong FPS like id knows how to do. The game is very reactive, due to high framerate and also very beautiful. I really enjoyed it to the point I'd say that the main drawback is that the game is too short.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:23:11 UTC, w0rp wrote:
 You would get more power out of using another architecture, but 
 I think being able to write the games in D is even more 
 powerful. Plus, PS4 seems to smile on self-publishing. That's a 
 big opportunity to shine as a rogue D games console developer.

Do you have some news about that ? I'd really like to play with the PS4, it seems like an interesting machine to program on. Especially the unified memory model.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:18:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:23:11 UTC, w0rp wrote:
 You would get more power out of using another architecture, 
 but I think being able to write the games in D is even more 
 powerful. Plus, PS4 seems to smile on self-publishing. That's 
 a big opportunity to shine as a rogue D games console 
 developer.

Do you have some news about that ? I'd really like to play with the PS4, it seems like an interesting machine to program on. Especially the unified memory model.

http://kotaku.com/indie-developers-won-t-be-able-to-self-publish-on-xbox-509271999 "This news comes in stark contrast to Sony’s promises that indies will be able to self-publish content on the PS4." I don't think there's much other details about it.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "ron" <rd.hunt gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:18:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:23:11 UTC, w0rp wrote:
 You would get more power out of using another architecture, 
 but I think being able to write the games in D is even more 
 powerful. Plus, PS4 seems to smile on self-publishing. That's 
 a big opportunity to shine as a rogue D games console 
 developer.

Do you have some news about that ? I'd really like to play with the PS4, it seems like an interesting machine to program on. Especially the unified memory model.

It isn't simply unified like old consoles(xbox first?!) either, the GPU and CPU use the same virtual address space, and in fact the GPU supports full x86 addressing, and the gpu is connected to the CPU's cache coherency protocol. Literally, HSA allows you to pass a pointer to your opencl or HSAIL compiled c/c++(hopefully D via llvm or gcc) code without copying to GPU memory and without having to remap memory to the GPU. The gpu sees the same physical memory through the hMMU giving it the same virtual address space as the rest of your application. HSAIL bytecode is complex enough to allow c++ virtual functions to be properly accessed in GPU code.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 at 23:10:47 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 6/12/13, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 Games are not usually 'crappy desktop code', they're carefully 
 tuned,
 purpose-specific code.

I'd rather programmers spend their time building cool games than fast games. Not everything has to be ultra-realistic-shiny-3D-lens-flair-ultra-optimized-60fps crap.

That is why Unity, Flash, LibGDX, Cocos2D among others are being used more and more by indies. Not everything needs to be AAA.
Jun 13 2013