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digitalmars.D - Is it too late to change the name of this language?

reply Benjamin Lindley <benjameslindley gmail.com> writes:
I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name 
is unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from 
catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that 
doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too 
late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?
Jun 17 2011
next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Benjamin Lindley:

 Is it too late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

Google gives me only 93000 hits for the "dmars" word :-) Bye, bearophile
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent eles <eles eles.com> writes:
== Quote from Benjamin Lindley (benjameslindley gmail.com)'s article
 Is it too late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

I think that would be a bad change. The main point of D is that it positions itself in the B/C(C++) line. Yes, searching for "d programming language" is a bit tricky, but what about "c programming language"?
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
Benjamin Lindley Wrote:

 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name 
 is unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from 
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that 
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too 
 late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

Yes. Also D Programming Language does work well even for those that just call it D since usually the page will also mention programming or languages. Must people will use the full description at least once. D has already made a name for itself, both good and bad. And if we did change the name it would become 100% more difficult to find because everything would be referencing the D programming language and not blah blah.
Jun 17 2011
next sibling parent Simon <s.d.hammett gmail.com> writes:
On 17/06/2011 21:27, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 Benjamin Lindley Wrote:

 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name
 is unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too
 late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

Yes. Also D Programming Language does work well even for those that just call it D since usually the page will also mention programming or languages. Must people will use the full description at least once. D has already made a name for itself, both good and bad. And if we did change the name it would become 100% more difficult to find because everything would be referencing the D programming language and not blah blah.

And there's all the libraries which start or end w/ d would need renaming! :) -- My enormous talent is exceeded only by my outrageous laziness. http://www.ssTk.co.uk
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Benjamin Lindley <benjameslindley gmail.com> writes:
On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.
Jun 17 2011
next sibling parent reply "Mike James" <foo bar.com> writes:
"Benjamin Lindley" <benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:itgemj$2p61$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Drainfuck it is then...
Jun 17 2011
parent Simon <s.d.hammett gmail.com> writes:
On 17/06/2011 21:51, Mike James wrote:
 "Benjamin Lindley"<benjameslindley gmail.com>  wrote in message
 news:itgemj$2p61$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Drainfuck it is then...

Sounds like a plumbing service. -- My enormous talent is exceeded only by my outrageous laziness. http://www.ssTk.co.uk
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/17/2011 1:45 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Searching for "D programming" works just fine. Use the quotes.
Jun 17 2011
parent reply alphabeta <alpha beta.com> writes:
On 18/06/11 1:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 1:45 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Searching for "D programming" works just fine. Use the quotes.

Just about nobody understands (web) searching with &quot;&apos;s. Of course the advanced (web) searcher knows that the use of &quot;&apos;s are often indispensible and dammed if you don&apos;t. It was a boon when Google started to recognize non alpha characters such as '+' so it is now easy to search for C++ material. So here's an idea, call D2 D++. :-) ab
Jun 18 2011
parent reply Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 18.06.2011 16:47, schrieb alphabeta:
 On 18/06/11 1:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 1:45 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Searching for "D programming" works just fine. Use the quotes.

Just about nobody understands (web) searching with &quot;&apos;s. Of course the advanced (web) searcher knows that the use of &quot;&apos;s are often indispensible and dammed if you don&apos;t. It was a boon when Google started to recognize non alpha characters such as '+' so it is now easy to search for C++ material. So here's an idea, call D2 D++. :-) ab

Won't help at all, non-alphabetic chars like + are usually ignored in the search index (maybe there's an explicit exception for "c++"). Cheers, - Daniel
Jun 18 2011
parent reply alphabeta <alpha beta.com> writes:
On 19/06/11 12:21 AM, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 Am 18.06.2011 16:47, schrieb alphabeta:
 On 18/06/11 1:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 1:45 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Searching for "D programming" works just fine. Use the quotes.

Just about nobody understands (web) searching with&quot;&apos;s. Of course the advanced (web) searcher knows that the use of &quot;&apos;s are often indispensible and dammed if you don&apos;t. It was a boon when Google started to recognize non alpha characters such as '+' so it is now easy to search for C++ material. So here's an idea, call D2 D++. :-) ab

Won't help at all, non-alphabetic chars like + are usually ignored in the search index (maybe there's an explicit exception for "c++"). Cheers, - Daniel

Any maybe an exception for .Net's C# as well? C# About 188,000,000 results (0.11 seconds) ... with first dozen pages of results all about C Sharp PL. dunno ab
Jun 18 2011
parent Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 18.06.2011 17:05, schrieb alphabeta:
 On 19/06/11 12:21 AM, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 Am 18.06.2011 16:47, schrieb alphabeta:
 On 18/06/11 1:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 1:45 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

Searching for "D programming" works just fine. Use the quotes.

Just about nobody understands (web) searching with&quot;&apos;s. Of course the advanced (web) searcher knows that the use of &quot;&apos;s are often indispensible and dammed if you don&apos;t. It was a boon when Google started to recognize non alpha characters such as '+' so it is now easy to search for C++ material. So here's an idea, call D2 D++. :-) ab

Won't help at all, non-alphabetic chars like + are usually ignored in the search index (maybe there's an explicit exception for "c++"). Cheers, - Daniel

Any maybe an exception for .Net's C# as well? C# About 188,000,000 results (0.11 seconds) ... with first dozen pages of results all about C Sharp PL. dunno ab

there may be special cases for some well know terms like C++, C#, ... but e.g. foobar# yields the same results as foobar. if you search with source code snippets (or error messages containing a lot of non alphabetical characters) on normal google, you often get results that don't contain the non-alpha chars at all, because they are stripped. hmm I just realized that google does *not* ignore ++ (even though it ignores # and --) - foobar++ yields different results than foobar, foobar-- or foobar#.
Jun 18 2011
prev sibling parent reply Benjamin Lindley <benjameslindley gmail.com> writes:
On 6/18/2011 5:45 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 6/17/11, Benjamin Lindley<benjameslindley gmail.com>  wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

What exactly are the searching problems you have with D?

As one simple example, try searching for "D http client library". None of the hits have anything to do with D. It may not be a huge problem, but I think small things like this will contribute to people deciding that it's too hard to get help on things and just give up on the language instead. I don't really think the language can afford those losses.
Jun 18 2011
parent reply Benjamin Lindley <benjameslindley gmail.com> writes:
On 6/18/2011 12:24 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/18/2011 5:45 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 6/17/11, Benjamin Lindley<benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

What exactly are the searching problems you have with D?

As one simple example, try searching for "D http client library". None of the hits have anything to do with D. It may not be a huge problem, but I think small things like this will contribute to people deciding that it's too hard to get help on things and just give up on the language instead. I don't really think the language can afford those losses.

You'll also notice that it occasionally matches on words that end in 'd, like you'd, we'd, etc... C and C++ do not share that problem.
Jun 18 2011
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Benjamin Lindley" <benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:itinl7$12u9$2 digitalmars.com...
 On 6/18/2011 12:24 PM, Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 On 6/18/2011 5:45 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 6/17/11, Benjamin Lindley<benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

What exactly are the searching problems you have with D?

As one simple example, try searching for "D http client library". None of the hits have anything to do with D. It may not be a huge problem, but I think small things like this will contribute to people deciding that it's too hard to get help on things and just give up on the language instead. I don't really think the language can afford those losses.

You'll also notice that it occasionally matches on words that end in 'd, like you'd, we'd, etc...

Sounds like more of a Google problem.
Jun 18 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
We could call it Caligo.  I always wanted a programming language named after me.
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 6/17/11, Benjamin Lindley <benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote:
 On 6/17/2011 3:33 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
 small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.

But if D had a name like Brainfuck, it would be even more easily searchable than C or C++, regardless of the size of it's community.

What exactly are the searching problems you have with D?
Jun 18 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
The reason D is not as "searchable" as C or C++ is because D is a
small community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the name.
Jun 17 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Manfred Hansen <m.hansen kielnet.net> writes:
Benjamin Lindley wrote:

 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name
 is unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too
 late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

Yes, i think it is a good idear. This questions pop up sometimes earlier, i read this newsgroup since 2003. My feeling is that renaming the langauge would be better for publicity, but Walter didn't do that. I think the language should at least 3 character. Maybe we should vote to keep the old or for an new language name. Manfred
Jun 18 2011
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On 2011-06-18 01:49, Manfred Hansen wrote:
 Benjamin Lindley wrote:
 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name
 is unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too
 late to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

Yes, i think it is a good idear. This questions pop up sometimes earlier, i read this newsgroup since 2003. My feeling is that renaming the langauge would be better for publicity, but Walter didn't do that. I think the language should at least 3 character. Maybe we should vote to keep the old or for an new language name.

It was originally the Mars language, but because it was effectively C+++, people kept calling it D, and the name stuck. There have been 2 books published on the D programming language. Lots of people have heard about D. The fact that its name is D does indicate to people that it's related to C and/or C++. It's a known and recognized name even if not all that many people have really tried the language out. Yes, the name sucks for searching, but changing it at this point would be lose a _ton_ of name recognition, and it's quite possible to search for "d programming" or "d programming language." Perhaps the language really should have stayed as Mars, or maybe it should have had a more unique name than that, but at this point, it's far too late. We'd lose _far_ more than we'd gain at this point by changing the name. That ship has long since sailed. However, if you really think about it, how many successful programming languages have particularly unique names, and for how many programming languages was their success at all tied in with their name? I mean C, Java, Python, Perl, Ruby, etc. These are all names which would be horrible to search for if it weren't for the fact that their so big at this point a large portion of the hits is for them instead of the words that their names come from. As D grows, it will eventually be in the same category as them, and even searching for plain "D" will give many more hits. It just takes time. And we'd do far better to stabilize the language and libraries and make them fantastic so that people will _want_ to search for it and use it than we would to go and change the name. Ultimately, the name doesn't mean all that much. What matters is what the language can do and how much people use it. - Jonathan M Davis
Jun 18 2011
parent reply Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 18.06.2011 11:52, schrieb Jonathan M Davis:
 I mean C, Java, 
 Python, Perl, Ruby, etc. These are all names which would be horrible to search 
 for if it weren't for the fact that their so big at this point a large portion 
 of the hits is for them instead of the words that their names come from. 

I agree for C, but not for Java, Python etc. (And C was already big enough when the internet started, so it's not that much of a problem) Their name is not unique (like Brainfuck probably is), but if you search for it in the context of programming you probably won't get results about coffee, snakes, ... If you search for D in the context of programming, it's not that great - many pages that have nothing to do with D contain Ds. But if you search for "foobar d programming language" you get pretty good results - even though some may be missing because some people may only mention D on their homepage and not "D programming language" or "programing language D". I'd have preferred another name (like mars - "phobos" makes much more sense when the language is called "mars"), but I think we can live with it and it's definitely to late to change. Cheers, - Daniel
Jun 18 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/18/2011 7:33 AM, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 But if you search for "foobar d programming language" you get pretty
 good results - even though some may be missing because some people may
 only mention D on their homepage and not "D programming language" or
 "programing language D".

I also regularly harangue people who write about D to use the phrase "D programming language" somewhere in their article.
Jun 18 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Mike James" <foo bar.com> writes:
"Benjamin Lindley" <benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:itgcgc$2lnk$1 digitalmars.com...
 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name is 
 unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from 
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that 
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too late 
 to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

You could call it Symbol... The Language Formally Known As D.
Jun 20 2011
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Mike James" <foo bar.com> wrote in message 
news:itn6h2$3og$1 digitalmars.com...
 "Benjamin Lindley" <benjameslindley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:itgcgc$2lnk$1 digitalmars.com...
 I'm new to this language, and so far, I really like it.  But that name is 
 unsearchable.  Don't you guys think that hinders the language from 
 catching on?  Yes, you can search for D Programming Language, but that 
 doesn't help find pages where the author only calls it D.  Is it too late 
 to change the name?  Possibly deprecate it?

You could call it Symbol... The Language Formally Known As D.

I'm detecting a reference to "The artist formerly known as 'the artist formerly known as Prince'". That's a long name, but he earned it ;)
Jun 20 2011