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digitalmars.D - Incomprehensible compiler errors

reply "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
I'm trying to write an actual program in D, but no matter what I 
do I get stupid errors that mean nothing to me. (Reminds me of 
C++)

    Error 42: Symbol Undefined
    _D8infinity8standard7runtime4IApp4IApp11__InterfaceZ	

Huh? This usually happens if I omit the module statement at the 
top of EVERY DAMN FILE (why???) but in this case I haven't 
omitted it, yet I'm still getting the error.

Also, I get the following error:

    Error 42: Symbol Undefined
    _D3dfl8internal6winapi12__ModuleInfoZ

The code producing this second error is:

	int Run() {
		import core.sys.windows.windows;
		import dfl.internal.winapi;
		MSG msg;
		while (GetMessageA(&msg, null, 0, 0)) {
			TranslateMessage(&msg);
			DispatchMessageA(&msg);
			if (msg.hwnd && !IsWindow(msg.hwnd)) break;
		}
		return 0;
	}

What the HELL is this "ModuleInfo", why is it necessary, why is 
it always missing when a "module" statement is not present, and 
why is it missing NOW?
Jul 30 2012
next sibling parent reply Gor Gyolchanyan <gor.f.gyolchanyan gmail.com> writes:
--f46d0401240beab67e04c60eb114
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Stuart <stugol gmx.com> wrote:

 I'm trying to write an actual program in D, but no matter what I do I get
 stupid errors that mean nothing to me. (Reminds me of C++)

    Error 42: Symbol Undefined
    _**D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ

 Huh? This usually happens if I omit the module statement at the top of
 EVERY DAMN FILE (why???) but in this case I haven't omitted it, yet I'm
 still getting the error.

 Also, I get the following error:

    Error 42: Symbol Undefined
    _D3dfl8internal6winapi12__**ModuleInfoZ

 The code producing this second error is:

         int Run() {
                 import core.sys.windows.windows;
                 import dfl.internal.winapi;
                 MSG msg;
                 while (GetMessageA(&msg, null, 0, 0)) {
                         TranslateMessage(&msg);
                         DispatchMessageA(&msg);
                         if (msg.hwnd && !IsWindow(msg.hwnd)) break;
                 }
                 return 0;
         }

 What the HELL is this "ModuleInfo", why is it necessary, why is it always
 missing when a "module" statement is not present, and why is it missing NOW?

For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle the "_** D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which happens to be "infinity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface". The ModuleInfo is a half-working runtime reflection structure, which the compiler successfully fails to build when you omit the optional module declaration. -- Bye, Gor Gyolchanyan. --f46d0401240beab67e04c60eb114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Stuart <span di= r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stugol gmx.com" target=3D"_blank">stugol gm= x.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I&#39;m trying to write an actual program in D, but no matter what I do I g= et stupid errors that mean nothing to me. (Reminds me of C++)<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Error 42: Symbol Undefined<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0_<u></u>D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA<u></u>pp4IApp11__Interf= aceZ <br> <br> Huh? This usually happens if I omit the module statement at the top of EVER= Y DAMN FILE (why???) but in this case I haven&#39;t omitted it, yet I&#39;m= still getting the error.<br> <br> Also, I get the following error:<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Error 42: Symbol Undefined<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0_D3dfl8internal6winapi12__<u></u>ModuleInfoZ<br> <br> The code producing this second error is:<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 int Run() {<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 import core.sys.win= dows.windows;<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 import dfl.internal= .winapi;<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MSG msg;<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 while (GetMessageA(= &amp;msg, null, 0, 0)) {<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 TranslateMessage(&amp;msg);<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 DispatchMessageA(&amp;msg);<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 if (msg.hwnd &amp;&amp; !IsWindow(msg.hwnd)) break;<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return 0;<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br> <br> What the HELL is this &quot;ModuleInfo&quot;, why is it necessary, why is i= t always missing when a &quot;module&quot; statement is not present, and wh= y is it missing NOW?<br> </blockquote></div><br>For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler t= o demangle the &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,s= ans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">_</span><u styl= e=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;backgr= ound-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-fa= mily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">D8i= nfinity8standard7runtime4</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-fam= ily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">IA</= span><u style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34= ,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,2= 55,255)">pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ</span>&quot;, which happens to be &quot;infi= nity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface&quot;.<br clear=3D"all"> <div><br></div><div>The ModuleInfo is a half-working runtime reflection str= ucture, which the compiler successfully fails to build when you omit the op= tional module declaration.</div><div><br></div>-- <br>Bye,<br>Gor Gyolchany= an.<br> --f46d0401240beab67e04c60eb114--
Jul 30 2012
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxleCBSw7hubmUgUGV0ZXJzZW4=?= <alex lycus.org> writes:
On 30-07-2012 18:38, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Stuart <stugol gmx.com
 <mailto:stugol gmx.com>> wrote:

     I'm trying to write an actual program in D, but no matter what I do
     I get stupid errors that mean nothing to me. (Reminds me of C++)

         Error 42: Symbol Undefined
         ___D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA__pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ

     Huh? This usually happens if I omit the module statement at the top
     of EVERY DAMN FILE (why???) but in this case I haven't omitted it,
     yet I'm still getting the error.

     Also, I get the following error:

         Error 42: Symbol Undefined
         _D3dfl8internal6winapi12____ModuleInfoZ

     The code producing this second error is:

              int Run() {
                      import core.sys.windows.windows;
                      import dfl.internal..winapi;
                      MSG msg;
                      while (GetMessageA(&msg, null, 0, 0)) {
                              TranslateMessage(&msg);
                              DispatchMessageA(&msg);
                              if (msg.hwnd && !IsWindow(msg.hwnd)) break;
                      }
                      return 0;
              }

     What the HELL is this "ModuleInfo", why is it necessary, why is it
     always missing when a "module" statement is not present, and why is
     it missing NOW?


 For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler

linker
 to demangle the
 "___D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA__pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which
 happens to be "infinity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface".

 The ModuleInfo is a half-working runtime reflection structure, which the
 compiler successfully fails to build when you omit the optional module
 declaration.

 --
 Bye,
 Gor Gyolchanyan.

-- Alex Rønne Petersen alex lycus.org http://lycus.org
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:38:54 UTC, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:
 For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle 
 the "_**
 D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which 
 happens to be
 "infinity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface".

The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to expect linkers to understand D's name mangling scheme.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Peter Alexander:

 The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to
 expect linkers to understand D's name mangling scheme.

Then the output of the linker should be hidden, and the programmer should see only some filtered and cleaned error text. It's another little step to pull out of '70 the D compilations :-) Bye, bearophile
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 17:16:04 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Then the output of the linker should be hidden, and the 
 programmer should see only some filtered and cleaned error text.

yea the compiler could run something like linker | demangle rather than just linker and make it a little prettier.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Gor Gyolchanyan <gor.f.gyolchanyan gmail.com> writes:
--f46d04088ee50273a904c60f419b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Peter Alexander <
peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:

 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:38:54 UTC, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:

 For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle the "_**
 D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA****pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which happens
 to be
 "infinity.standard.runtime.**App.App.__Interface".

The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to expect linkers to understand D's name mangling scheme.

wouldn't be too difficult to intercept the linker's output. -- Bye, Gor Gyolchanyan. --f46d04088ee50273a904c60f419b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Peter Alexander= <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:peter.alexander.au gmail.com" targ= et=3D"_blank">peter.alexander.au gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq= uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:38:54 UTC, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle the &quot;_*= *<br> D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA<u></u>**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ&quot;, which h= appens to be<br> &quot;infinity.standard.runtime.<u></u>App.App.__Interface&quot;.<br> </blockquote> <br> The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to<br> expect linkers to understand D&#39;s name mangling scheme.<br> <br> </blockquote></div><br>The compiler calls the linker (in cases where it&#39= ;s linking of course). It wouldn&#39;t be too difficult to intercept the li= nker&#39;s output.<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Bye,<br>Gor Gyolc= hanyan.<br> --f46d04088ee50273a904c60f419b--
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 7/30/12, Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:38:54 UTC, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:
 For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle
 the "_**
 D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which
 happens to be
 "infinity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface".

The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to expect linkers to understand D's name mangling scheme.

unilink understands it! Optlink, well.. we windevs all know optlink too well. :)
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 17:12:11 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:38:54 UTC, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote:
 For one, it would be mighty polite of the compiler to demangle 
 the "_**
 D8infinity8standard7runtime4IA**pp4IApp11__InterfaceZ", which 
 happens to be
 "infinity.standard.runtime.App.App.__Interface".

The linker spits out those errors. It would be unreasonable to expect linkers to understand D's name mangling scheme.

This problem was already solved by Turbo Pascal in the 80's, by making use of smart linkers integrated with the compiler. Many other languages follow similar module systems.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
I notice nobody so far seems to have any idea why I'm getting 
these errors.
Jul 30 2012
parent reply Dmitry Olshansky <dmitry.olsh gmail.com> writes:
On 30-Jul-12 22:43, Stuart wrote:
 I notice nobody so far seems to have any idea why I'm getting these errors.

Everybody knows it's a linker error. Your particular message means you have link-in module dfl.internal.winapi. e.g. by passing all files to dmd: dmd you_module.d dfl\internal\winapi.d Why would you use internal module of library is beyond me but regardless, a better way would be (if DFL is compiled to dfl.lib file): dmd your_module.d dfl.lib -- Dmitry Olshansky
Jul 30 2012
parent Dmitry Olshansky <dmitry.olsh gmail.com> writes:
On 30-Jul-12 23:45, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 19:03:13 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
 Why would you use internal module of library is beyond me

Perhaps because nobody saw fit to define IsWindow() in module "core.sys.windows.windows"?

Yeah, it's woefully lacking. There is Win32 bindings project that covers all of WinAPI/DirectX/etc. (not sure about modern extensions as in Win7/8 but far better then built-in).
 dmd your_module.d dfl.lib

No, that doesn't help. Because I'm getting this same shit when I import my OWN .d files:

It doesn't matter whose these file are. You need all of them passed to compiler (then it will link them together) or split them in packs and compile to libraries and then pass to linker. D compiler doesn't link in dependencies automatically the reason for this was "too much magic" and "hard to override" (e.g. what if it picks up wrong libraries and/or files?). So for humans the way to go is to use rdmd tool that deduces all dependencies if you pass it one main file. This will compile all files and execute you app (it also rebuilds only if files change): rdmd mymain.d or to only build app (not execute): rdmd --build-only mymain.d -- Dmitry Olshansky
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 19:03:13 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
 Why would you use internal module of library is beyond me

Perhaps because nobody saw fit to define IsWindow() in module "core.sys.windows.windows"?
 dmd your_module.d dfl.lib

No, that doesn't help. Because I'm getting this same shit when I import my OWN .d files: --- module infinity.standard.runtime.IApp; interface IApp { int Run(); } --- module infinity.standard.runtime.StandardApplication; import infinity.standard.runtime.IApp; mixin template StandardApplication(TApp : IApp) { import core.runtime, core.sys.windows.windows; extern (Windows) int WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow) { int result; void exceptionHandler(Throwable e) { throw e; } try { Runtime.initialize(&exceptionHandler); result = myWinMain(hInstance, hPrevInstance, lpCmdLine, nCmdShow); Runtime.terminate(&exceptionHandler); } catch (Throwable o) { MessageBoxA(null, cast(char *)o.toString(), "Error", MB_OK | MB_ICONEXCLAMATION); result = 0; // failed } return result; } int myWinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow) { TApp app; return app.Run(); } } --- Error 42: Symbol Undefined _D8infinity8standard7runtime4IApp4IApp11__InterfaceZ
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 20:04:25 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
 On 30-Jul-12 23:45, Stuart wrote:
 No, that doesn't help. Because I'm getting this same shit when 
 I import
 my OWN .d files:

It doesn't matter whose these file are. You need all of them passed to compiler (then it will link them together) or split them in packs and compile to libraries and then pass to linker. D compiler doesn't link in dependencies automatically the reason for this was "too much magic" and "hard to override"

Well I'm using VisualD, and have both projects in my solution. Is there some option I ought to be setting? I can't go running arbitrary commandlines all over the shop.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 20:08:34 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Well I'm using VisualD, and have both projects in my solution. 
 Is there some option I ought to be setting? I can't go running 
 arbitrary commandlines all over the shop.

Nvm, I got it. "Project Dependencies" dialog.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/30/2012 9:31 AM, Stuart wrote:
 I'm trying to write an actual program in D, but no matter what I do I get
stupid
 errors that mean nothing to me. (Reminds me of C++)

     Error 42: Symbol Undefined
     _D8infinity8standard7runtime4IApp4IApp11__InterfaceZ

This means module infinity, and standard.runtime.Iapp ...
 Huh? This usually happens if I omit the module statement at the top of EVERY
 DAMN FILE (why???) but in this case I haven't omitted it, yet I'm still getting
 the error.

It's likely that you aren't presenting the compiled version of inifinity.obj to the linker.
 Also, I get the following error:

     Error 42: Symbol Undefined
     _D3dfl8internal6winapi12__ModuleInfoZ

 The code producing this second error is:

      int Run() {
          import core.sys.windows.windows;
          import dfl.internal.winapi;
          MSG msg;
          while (GetMessageA(&msg, null, 0, 0)) {
              TranslateMessage(&msg);
              DispatchMessageA(&msg);
              if (msg.hwnd && !IsWindow(msg.hwnd)) break;
          }
          return 0;
      }

 What the HELL is this "ModuleInfo", why is it necessary, why is it always
 missing when a "module" statement is not present, and why is it missing NOW?

A ModuleInfo is generated for each compiled module and inserted into its corresponding .obj file. If the linker cannot find it, then it is likely that you need to specify that .obj on the link command.
Jul 30 2012
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/30/12 6:54 PM, Stuart wrote:
 Ah, it would seem that my problem is with DFL not compiling. Look guys,
 I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's like
 using fucking Linux: Absolutely everything needs to be compiled before
 you can use it; and nothing will compile because you need to do fifty
 other goddamn things that aren't mentioned in the readme, so you have to
 post on dozens of sodding forums for a week hoping someone throws you a
 bone.

I empathize. The one thing that may be different is that the forums at forum.dlang.org tend to be a bit more responsive and to the point.
 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using phrases like
 "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is.

 DFL won't compile. D-IDE doesn't work at all. VisualD crashes all the
 time. The Eclipse IDE plugin doesn't work either. None of the IDEs have
 any kind of reliable intellisense. The optional "module" keywords aren't
 optional. The whole fucking thing's a shambles, just like everything
 else designed for Linux.

 It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than this.

The irony there is that dmd has started as a Windows program. Andrei
Jul 30 2012
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2012-07-31 11:28, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 FWIW, I think this is the problem:

 The people who have been using D so far are mostly those who are
 perfectly happy, or prefer, command lines and lightweight code
 editors. So they've never been particularly motivated to work on such
 things since they don't need them and have plenty of more immediate
 concerns.

I'm not happy with and don't prefer command line tools. I prefer using an IDE. I'm really jealous on Eclipse (JDT) and Xcode 4. I'm trying to work on improving the development environment for D. But these things take time. Before starting with high level tools like an IDE we need proper tools at a lower level. I don't think we're there yet. No proper build tools, no package manager, no good way to run tests and so on.
 Then the people who demand fullweight IDEs, GUI designers, zero command
 line, etc., see that D doesn't have much in that regard, and they don't
 improve the situation either, they just leave in disgust instead.

 So neither side is doing it and we have a chicken and egg situation :/

 Of course, that's not *entirely* true. Things like VisualD and Mono-D
 *are* very actively maintained. They just don't have very many people
 helping out (which of course is where the chicken and egg comes in).

 As far as reliable dev tools, Programmer's Notepad 2 + DMD has been
 *very* reliable for me. It's not "Trivial, a-baby-can-do-it, set
 everything up with one-click", you have to understand the command line,
 etc., but it's certainly been very reliable.

I'm quite happy with my setup using TextMate and DMD, RDMD and DVM. I've added commands to run a single file using RDMD. I also have another command for building a whole project. It can parse the output of the builds and create links, which points back to TextMate, of any compile errors or exceptions thrown at runtime. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/30/12 7:32 PM, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:07:35 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Take a look at the Rebol language.

I took a quick look. It didn't look like anything suitable for creating native GUI applications. It looked totally insane.

Yah, that came outta nowhere. I've also had a "wtfits" reaction. Andrei
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2012-07-31 01:32, Stuart wrote:

 It's not D itself I have a problem with. It's the complete lack of
 reliable tools for it. No IDE. No GUI designer. No nothing. Coding a
 real application in D is like using Cobra, or Nemerle - in short,
 frustrating and slow.

We're well aware of these problems and doing our best to solve them. The main problem is the lack of time and manpower. I'm guessing most of us (D developers) are working on D in our free time. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply David <d dav1d.de> writes:
 It's not D itself I have a problem with. It's the complete lack of
 reliable tools for it. No IDE. No GUI designer. No nothing. Coding a
 real application in D is like using Cobra, or Nemerle - in short,
 frustrating and slow.

Mh, if this is *your* opinion, why are you using D then?
Jul 31 2012
next sibling parent Mirko Pilger <pilger cymotec.de> writes:
 How can I write a GUI?

as i understand gtkD is actively maintained and even already prepared for the next dmd release version 2.060. https://github.com/gtkd-developers/GtkD
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2012-07-31 19:30, Stuart wrote:

 Of course it's *my* opinion. Whose else opinion would it be?

 And that's just the point. I'm *not* using D. I *want* to be using D,
 and I've been *trying* to use D, but I keep hitting strange compiler
 errors and libraries that won't compile (i.e. DFL).

 I like D. It's been well-thought-out. But without tools, how can it be
 used? Yeah, I know, many of you don't use IDEs - but tell me this. How
 can I write a GUI? Whether you like GUIs is beside the point:
 Applications need them. There's no point writing a decent-sized program
 without one. And yet (without DFL) you have no library support for them
 whatsoever. To create a window or a button, I must use CreateWindow().
 To handle events, I must use GetMessageA(). To resize controls when the
 parent window changes size, I have to do it all by hand, in code.

 DFL and intellisense. Those are the areas this project is lacking.

Have a look at DWT, I think it should work with DMD 2.059. http://dsource.org/projects/dwt https://github.com/d-widget-toolkit/dwt -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Don Clugston <dac nospam.com> writes:
On 31/07/12 00:54, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 21:40:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 A ModuleInfo is generated for each compiled module and inserted into
 its corresponding .obj file. If the linker cannot find it, then it is
 likely that you need to specify that .obj on the link command.

Ah, it would seem that my problem is with DFL not compiling. Look guys, I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's like using fucking Linux: Absolutely everything needs to be compiled before you can use it; and nothing will compile because you need to do fifty other goddamn things that aren't mentioned in the readme, so you have to post on dozens of sodding forums for a week hoping someone throws you a bone.

 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using phrases like
 "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is.

 DFL won't compile. D-IDE doesn't work at all. VisualD crashes all the
 time. The Eclipse IDE plugin doesn't work either. None of the IDEs have
 any kind of reliable intellisense. The optional "module" keywords aren't
 optional. The whole fucking thing's a shambles, just like everything
 else designed for Linux.

 It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than this.

Yeah, we still have *miles* to go on the toolchain. As a community we've been putting most of our effort into getting the compiler stable, and to a lesser extent working on the the standard library. Most of the other things are one-man shows. The Eclipse plugin and DFL have both been abandoned for years. Mono-D and VisualD are progressing quite well but again they are only one-man shows. We need more people.
Jul 31 2012
next sibling parent Dmitry Olshansky <dmitry.olsh gmail.com> writes:
On 31-Jul-12 21:35, Stuart wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 10:59:49 UTC, Don Clugston wrote:
 Yeah, we still have *miles* to go on the toolchain. As a community
 we've been putting most of our effort into getting the compiler
 stable, and to a lesser extent working on the the standard library.
 Most of the other things are one-man shows.
 The Eclipse plugin and DFL have both been abandoned for years.
 Mono-D and VisualD are progressing quite well but again they are only
 one-man shows.

 We need more people.

Agreed. I don't know if I can help much - I'm not an expert on low-level things like compilers and such, and I do my best work in .NET; but there may be something I can do. Maybe write a better IDE, with intellisense, I dunno. It'd have to be .NET based.

Mono-D is .NET based. You can provide some help for its developer since it's not working for you, a good first step would be to identify problem and fix it. -- Dmitry Olshansky
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/31/2012 10:35 AM, Stuart wrote:
 Agreed. I don't know if I can help much - I'm not an expert on low-level things
 like compilers and such, and I do my best work in .NET; but there may be
 something I can do. Maybe write a better IDE, with intellisense, I dunno. It'd
 have to be .NET based.

Any help you can give will be most appreciated by the D community.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/31/12 8:48 PM, Stuart wrote:
 I notice nobody else at all has objected to my being told to fuck off
 and stop wasting people's time. I guess it's okay for people to talk to
 me like that, yes?

I've also been surprised by Bernard's exaggerated reaction. Your vent was not the most unreasonable out there. This is an unmoderated newsgroup and although personal attacks do happen, they are very rare.
 I can just fuck off if everyone would rather. After this blatant abuse -
 which has gone unremarked, it seems - I'm seriously considering leaving.

Are you threatening to leave an online forum? Now this is exactly the kind of immature thing that won't help any. No, personal attacks are not welcome here, but you needn't have an emotional answer to a head hotter than yours. Andrei
Jul 31 2012
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/31/12 9:39 PM, q66 wrote:
 Bernard's reaction was entirely reasonable, spewing ignorant bullshit
 all around and then being like "hurr durr i have a bsc from software
 engineering, no wai" deserves no better.

By the way, he's only proving what I said with these "hurrr I'm gonna leave" responses (not that it wasn't apparent before). With this attitude, I can say only one thing: "fuck off faggot"

No reaction that strong is reasonable, regardless of context. It's not a civilized response to anything. Probably this meta-talk has long run its course. We're one Hitler mention away from complete mayhem :o). All - please, let's stay civil. It's obvious this is helping no one and nothing. Let's keep this forum focused on interesting technical topics as it's always been. Freedom of word is most liberating when used judiciously. Thanks much, Andrei
Jul 31 2012
parent FeepingCreature <default_357-line yahoo.de> writes:
On 08/01/12 04:50, Stuart wrote:
 If this kind of abuse is indicative of the "D community", I'll keep my help to
myself.

If this kind of response is indicative of the way you deal with mild abrasiveness, you're very very welcome to.
 Perhaps not, but he's certainly lowering my opinion of this forum and its
members. I would like to point out AGAIN that my claim of a BSc in Software
Engineering was not bragging; but simply a statement that I was not "ignorant"
of the general principles of coding and of C/C++. I fail to see why it has
immediately earned me large amounts of abuse.

Having a BSc in SE has only tangential connection to being able to write good code.
 While I appreciate the help of some people on here, it seems this forum is
populated at least 50% by complete cocks. Also, as it stands, D is NOT USABLE
for any serious purpose (such as writing an application); and I'm not prepared
to put up with the level of abuse and trolling that's coming my way. You may
notice I insulted nobody who didn't insult me first.

I think if you left at this point, it'd make this place better.
 I don't mind a bit of banter and bad language, but I draw the line at personal
attacks. Either they stop or I do.

Fine: your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries. Also, farts are had in your approximate area. Please stop now?
Aug 01 2012
prev sibling parent FeepingCreature <default_357-line yahoo.de> writes:
On 08/01/12 03:39, q66 wrote:
 Bernard's reaction was entirely reasonable, spewing ignorant bullshit all
around and then being like "hurr durr i have a bsc from software engineering,
no wai" deserves no better.

By the way, he's only proving what I said with these "hurrr I'm gonna leave" responses (not that it wasn't apparent before). With this attitude, I can say only one thing: "fuck off faggot"

Can we please keep our low-brow insults a bit higher-brow than sexual slurs? This is, after all, not quite yet /b/.
Aug 01 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 08/01/2012 02:44 AM, Stuart wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:07:52 UTC, q66 wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of
 programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc in
 Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. So let's
 have less of the condescension, hmm?

errr I meant this :)

If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant. And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win.

- Why would it be interesting to talk about whether someone 'knows something' or not? This is d.D. - Why is it important whether or not some random guy on the internet thinks some statements are ignorant? - Besides, the statement does not even make sense. Who would respond to something that was not posted?
 Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful community"
 I've heard so much about.

Why? It is friendly and helpful. Even more so if it is treated as such.
Jul 31 2012
next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 08/01/2012 03:27 AM, Stuart wrote:
 On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 01:12:37 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:
 On 08/01/2012 02:44 AM, Stuart wrote:
 If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant.
 And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win.

- Why would it be interesting to talk about whether someone 'knows something' or not? This is d.D.

I didn't say it was interesting. I was called ignorant,

Some of your statements were called like that. Those certainly were irrelevant to the topic.
 and it was implied that I was a programming newbie.

A D newcomer.
 ...
 Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful community"
 I've heard so much about.

Why? It is friendly and helpful. Even more so if it is treated as such.

Some of it is, yes. But the ones who aren't are spoiling it somewhat.

Joining the former group would be a good start to making the latter group significantly smaller.
 And as I say, I assumed everyone on this forum was either a dev or a
 user. I wasn't expecting drive-by trolling.

 And yes, I may have been a little negative in this thread,

That is an understatement.
 but it's  because I really found D interesting and wanted to use it; and
 discovered that I couldn't.

Your best bet is to ask politely and to keep the question short and to the point. Also, pushing the blame away is inflammatory and irrelevant, so discussing whom is to blame can be omitted. Meta-discussions like this one can be omitted just as well. They serve no purpose other than avoiding meta-discussions in the future.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/31/2012 6:27 PM, Stuart wrote:
 I wasn't expecting drive-by trolling.

Well, there is one guy we all know & love who changes his pseudonym weekly and posts some incomprehensible drunken rants & insults late Saturday nights :-)
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/31/2012 5:48 PM, Stuart wrote:
 I notice nobody else at all has objected to my being told to fuck off and stop
 wasting people's time. I guess it's okay for people to talk to me like that,
yes?

Not many of us read all the posts. Is it ok for people to level such insults in this forum? I certainly think it is inappropriate. But I do try and allow people to say whatever they want as much as possible. If you look hard enough in this forum, you'll find the occasional similar insult directed at me. Such language, and attempts at trolling and baiting others tend to just be ignored.
 I can just fuck off if everyone would rather. After this blatant abuse - which
 has gone unremarked, it seems - I'm seriously considering leaving.

I certainly wish you'd stay. I don't believe Bernard is representative of our community.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 21:40:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 A ModuleInfo is generated for each compiled module and inserted 
 into its corresponding .obj file. If the linker cannot find it, 
 then it is likely that you need to specify that .obj on the 
 link command.

Ah, it would seem that my problem is with DFL not compiling. Look guys, I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's like using fucking Linux: Absolutely everything needs to be compiled before you can use it; and nothing will compile because you need to do fifty other goddamn things that aren't mentioned in the readme, so you have to post on dozens of sodding forums for a week hoping someone throws you a bone. All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using phrases like "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is. DFL won't compile. D-IDE doesn't work at all. VisualD crashes all the time. The Eclipse IDE plugin doesn't work either. None of the IDEs have any kind of reliable intellisense. The optional "module" keywords aren't optional. The whole fucking thing's a shambles, just like everything else designed for Linux. It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than this.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Stuart:

 I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's 
 like using fucking Linux:

I understand. The troubles you find are present in widely used languages. D is a young language and it's not widespread, so you are going to find even more problems.
 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using 
 phrases like "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? 
 Apparently it is.

Take a look at the Rebol language. Unlike D it imposes you big limits, but it's a language designed for the programmer, and not for the machine: http://rebol.com/ Bye, bearophile
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:07:35 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Stuart:

 I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but 
 it's like using fucking Linux:

I understand. The troubles you find are present in widely used languages. D is a young language and it's not widespread, so you are going to find even more problems.

The problem isn't that it's a young language; the problem is that it follows the Linux ideology - which, in a nutshell, is "make the user compile every damn thing, and make the user type everything longhand in emacs". It's not D itself I have a problem with. It's the complete lack of reliable tools for it. No IDE. No GUI designer. No nothing. Coding a real application in D is like using Cobra, or Nemerle - in short, frustrating and slow.
 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using 
 phrases like "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? 
 Apparently it is.

Take a look at the Rebol language.

I took a quick look. It didn't look like anything suitable for creating native GUI applications. It looked totally insane.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:31:14 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I empathize. The one thing that may be different is that the 
 forums at forum.dlang.org tend to be a bit more responsive and 
 to the point.

Well, perhaps someone can explain why I can't compile DFL? I'm getting the same problem as [http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/DFL_167579.html]. This forum post is over two months old, and yet nobody has fixed the problem. The suggested solutions either [a] didn't help or [b] didn't make sense, depending.
 It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than 
 this.

The irony there is that dmd has started as a Windows program.

I have no problem with DMD. DMD is a perfectly reasonable Windows executable. I am objecting to the frustrating way DFL is compile-it-yourself and doesn't work; and also the frustrating way there isn't a single working IDE or GUI designer for D.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
Let me be clear: I have no problem with the language of D. It 
looks quite decent. It's just not feasible to actually write a 
PROGRAM in it. Sure, if I want a quick-and-dirty commandline tool 
or something, no problem; but a Windows application? Without an 
IDE or GUI designer? No way. Even MFC has a dialog designer.

The language is fine: Now the developers need to turn their 
attention to the TOTAL AND UTTER LACK OF RELIABLE DEVELOPMENT 
TOOLS.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "cal" <callumenator gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:40:02 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 I have no problem with DMD. DMD is a perfectly reasonable 
 Windows executable. I am objecting to the frustrating way DFL 
 is compile-it-yourself and doesn't work; and also the 
 frustrating way there isn't a single working IDE or GUI 
 designer for D.

If you're willing try yet another IDE, I use Code::Blocks on both windows and linux, and while the intellisense or whatever C::B calls it is usually a waste of time it is at least completely stable and integrates OK with ddbg (which itself is not perfect, but...). It recognizes D syntax and it doesn't take 5 minutes to start-up. People also seem to like Mono-D. Like Dmitry said, rdmd can be a big help, since you just compile your main and it will find the dependencies.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 00:06:43 UTC, cal wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:40:02 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 I have no problem with DMD. DMD is a perfectly reasonable 
 Windows executable. I am objecting to the frustrating way DFL 
 is compile-it-yourself and doesn't work; and also the 
 frustrating way there isn't a single working IDE or GUI 
 designer for D.

If you're willing try yet another IDE, I use Code::Blocks on both windows and linux, and while the intellisense or whatever C::B calls it is usually a waste of time it is at least completely stable and integrates OK with ddbg (which itself is not perfect, but...). It recognizes D syntax and it doesn't take 5 minutes to start-up. People also seem to like Mono-D.

I couldn't get C::B to compile anything - either D or C. Mono-D didn't work for me either. I guess I'm just cursed.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bernard Helyer" <b.helyer gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:40:02 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:31:14 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 I empathize. The one thing that may be different is that the 
 forums at forum.dlang.org tend to be a bit more responsive and 
 to the point.

Well, perhaps someone can explain why I can't compile DFL?

Compiling from here, https://github.com/Rayerd/dfl the problem is winapi.d, wincom.d utf.d (not internal\utf.d) are all obsolete, and won't compile. Remove those and don't use them in your code. Other than that, all I did was dmd -lib -ofdfl *.d internal/*.d -I.. From win32/dfl in a MinGW bash shell, because DMD doesn't expand wildcards. Then I tested my new dfl.lib with import dfl.all; int main() { Form myForm; Label myLabel; myForm = new Form; myForm.text = "DFL Example"; myLabel = new Label; myLabel.font = new Font("Verdana", 14f); myLabel.text = "Hello, DFL World!"; myLabel.location = Point(15, 15); myLabel.autoSize = true; myLabel.parent = myForm; Application.run(myForm); return 0; } with dmd test.d dfl.lib gdi32.lib ole32.lib oleaut32.lib comdlg32.lib comctl32.lib This took me about two minutes to figure out with no prior experience with DFL.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 01:40:02 Stuart wrote:
 Well, perhaps someone can explain why I can't compile DFL?

Is it even maintained? The page that appears to be its home page ( http://www.dprogramming.com/dfl.php ) doesn't appear to have been updated since 2008. - Jonathan M Davis
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bernard Helyer" <b.helyer gmail.com> writes:
Oh, and if there are complaints of LoadLibraryA or whatever not 
being nothrow, remove any trace of nothrow from those modules.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 7/30/12 7:32 PM, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 23:07:35 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Take a look at the Rebol language.

I took a quick look. It didn't look like anything suitable for creating native GUI applications. It looked totally insane.

Yah, that came outta nowhere. I've also had a "wtfits" reaction.

It's a language born in 1997, and it's sometimes used as a more modern replacement for TCL to create small programs with GUIs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebol It semantics is clean, it has everything built-in, its syntax is readable and very short. There are many persons that don't think of it as insane. I have used it to quickly create GUIs for programs written in other languages too. And it doesn't spit mysterious linker errors. It's far simpler to understand than D. Bye, bearophile
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Walter Bright:

Elsewhere you have said:
http://forum.dlang.org/thread/50171A5B.7030002 digitalmars.com

"DFL won't compile" It doesn't matter if the fix is trivial, 
easy, whatever. It does not compile, therefore D sux.<

If you have noted the OP has not said D sucks, the opposite:
The language is fine:<

I agree that having a language perfectly finished is a good thing, no one likes broken programs, but programmers can't expect D to work as C89, with no changes since many years ago. A problem is that most people don't understand mangled linker errors. I agree with you that linkers are not magic, but modern programmers coming from many other languages are not used to them and their mangled errors. So we have suggested to filter those messages, to help programmers. The lack of reliable D tools is only partially caused by changes in D, another important cause is the small size of the D community. Giving good ways to manage deprecations is a good way to help. Giving the programmer ways to fix or solve the problems is another way to help. Recently I have suggested to change the signature of the third std.algorithm.count from: size_t count(alias pred = "true", Range)(Range r); To: size_t count(alias pred = "a", Range)(Range r); But Andrei has refused this tiny change because it breaks old code. Introducing ways to manage change & deprecation is going to help the development of D more than freezing everything :-) Bye, bearophile
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bernard Helyer" <b.helyer gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 03:28:40 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Walter Bright:

 Elsewhere you have said:
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/50171A5B.7030002 digitalmars.com

"DFL won't compile" It doesn't matter if the fix is trivial, 
easy, whatever. It does not compile, therefore D sux.<

If you have noted the OP has not said D sucks, the opposite:
The language is fine:<

I agree that having a language perfectly finished is a good thing, no one likes broken programs, but programmers can't expect D to work as C89, with no changes since many years ago. A problem is that most people don't understand mangled linker errors. I agree with you that linkers are not magic, but modern programmers coming from many other languages are not used to them and their mangled errors. So we have suggested to filter those messages, to help programmers.

If they won't learn the compilation model, they won't be good programmers. I'm not saying that good messages are a bad thing, but if they don't understand the basic concept of source -> object file -> linker -> exe or dll, then they will have a very hard time with D, pretty error messages or no.
Jul 30 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Ovrum" <jakobovrum gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 22:54:59 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's 
 like using fucking Linux: Absolutely everything needs to be 
 compiled before you can use it; and nothing will compile 
 because you need to do fifty other goddamn things that aren't 
 mentioned in the readme, so you have to post on dozens of 
 sodding forums for a week hoping someone throws you a bone.

 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using 
 phrases like "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? 
 Apparently it is.

 DFL won't compile. D-IDE doesn't work at all. VisualD crashes 
 all the time. The Eclipse IDE plugin doesn't work either. None 
 of the IDEs have any kind of reliable intellisense. The 
 optional "module" keywords aren't optional. The whole fucking 
 thing's a shambles, just like everything else designed for 
 Linux.

 It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than 
 this.

You're expecting the same diversity and quality of the toolchain of a small, relatively new (D2 is from 2007) programming language as you do from giants like C++ and .NET languages. This is unreasonable. D is run by a couple of language designers and its community - there is no backing from massive corporations or anything like that. That does not mean we can't have good things - the community is really pulling its weight, despite its relatively small size (but growing at a remarkable rate) we have all kinds of great tools, including three up to date compilers, several on-going IDE projects, a growing multitude of libraries and bindings, etc. As for VisualD, a lot of people - including myself - use it without issue. It has never crashed for me. I recommend you report your problem to the developer, or join development yourself. If you just want a stable production environment, start by disabling the clearly marked *experimental* auto-complete feature if you have it enabled. Your swipes at Linux are ignorant and non-constructive. Besides, D has its roots on Windows, it's not "designed for Linux" in any way. Your issues with compiling DFL are rooted completely in your own ignorance of the C/C++/D compilation model. You have a lot to learn and you should know that by now. Maybe tone down the aggressiveness a little; you've been generating a lot of noise lately.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 01:48:04 +0200
"Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> wrote:

 Let me be clear: I have no problem with the language of D. It 
 looks quite decent. It's just not feasible to actually write a 
 PROGRAM in it. Sure, if I want a quick-and-dirty commandline tool 
 or something, no problem; but a Windows application? Without an 
 IDE or GUI designer? No way. Even MFC has a dialog designer.
 
 The language is fine: Now the developers need to turn their 
 attention to the TOTAL AND UTTER LACK OF RELIABLE DEVELOPMENT 
 TOOLS.

FWIW, I think this is the problem: The people who have been using D so far are mostly those who are perfectly happy, or prefer, command lines and lightweight code editors. So they've never been particularly motivated to work on such things since they don't need them and have plenty of more immediate concerns. Then the people who demand fullweight IDEs, GUI designers, zero command line, etc., see that D doesn't have much in that regard, and they don't improve the situation either, they just leave in disgust instead. So neither side is doing it and we have a chicken and egg situation :/ Of course, that's not *entirely* true. Things like VisualD and Mono-D *are* very actively maintained. They just don't have very many people helping out (which of course is where the chicken and egg comes in). As far as reliable dev tools, Programmer's Notepad 2 + DMD has been *very* reliable for me. It's not "Trivial, a-baby-can-do-it, set everything up with one-click", you have to understand the command line, etc., but it's certainly been very reliable.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
David:

 Mh, if this is *your* opinion, why are you using D then?

Because its community is helpful and friendly :-) Bye, bearophile
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 04:15:40 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote:
 If they won't learn the compilation model, they won't be good 
 programmers.
 I'm not saying that good messages are a bad thing, but if they 
 don't
 understand the basic concept of source -> object file -> linker 
 -> exe or dll,
 then they will have a very hard time with D, pretty error 
 messages
 or no.

I understand the basic concept. What I didn't understand was why omitting the optional keyword "module" caused linker errors; nor did I understand why I couldn't use DFL after installing it normally. It wasn't obvious that the DFL compilation had failed, because the installer said "success!"
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 09:26:42 UTC, Jakob Ovrum wrote:
 You're expecting the same diversity and quality of the 
 toolchain of a small, relatively new (D2 is from 2007) 
 programming language as you do from giants like C++ and .NET 
 languages. This is unreasonable.

You have a point, and I have no business complaining about the inadequacies of a free project. But nevertheless, it's discouraging to try out a new language (D, Nemerle, Cobra, etc etc) only to find that I can't actually write any programs in it. By which I mean there is no way to create a GUI short of using the API directly. Try getting a bunch of controls to resize when you maximise their parent window - in .NET, this is trivial. If DFL worked, it would still be trivial. In D (or any other language with no decent tools) it's mind-bogglingly difficult. I'm really impressed with D, and was planning to start writing an application in it yesterday. And all I got was obscure compiler errors and a non-functional DFL. So I was a little disappointed.
 As for VisualD, a lot of people - including myself - use it 
 without issue. It has never crashed for me. I recommend you 
 report your problem to the developer, or join development 
 yourself. If you just want a stable production environment, 
 start by disabling the clearly marked *experimental* 
 auto-complete feature if you have it enabled.

It was disabled until very recently, when I was advised to enable it. The crash - which I have already reported - occurs when opening the solution. Any D solution. Every time. When double-clicking the .sln file in Explorer (or using Win7 jump lists).
 Your swipes at Linux are ignorant and non-constructive.

Ignorant? I'm no expert, certainly, but ignorant? Hardly. I've used Linux. For example, I ran it on my server machine for a year. And one thing I learnt was that, until you start getting Linux driver discs when you buy hardware, it's useless. Who wants an operating system that doesn't work until you post on forums, hack config files, and recompile the kernel? No thank you.
 Besides, D has its roots on Windows, it's not "designed for 
 Linux" in any way.

I was talking about the general mindset. The mindset behind DFL, to be specific. The mindset of: "Don't give 'em an exe - give 'em source, an obscure makefile, and undocumented dependencies. Let them WORK for it." That's the Linux mentality, and it drives me up the wall. I never said D was crap. I said its tools don't work. I was disappointed that I couldn't use D to write an application. Does that sound like someone who doesn't like the language?
 Your issues with compiling DFL are rooted completely in your 
 own ignorance of the C/C++/D compilation model.

Er, no. Before I used .NET, I used C++ almost exclusively for a number of years. I'm a little out of practice, but I understand the general principles involved. How about you stop making all these assumptions about my ignorance?
 You have a lot to learn and you should know that by now.

Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. So let's have less of the condescension, hmm?
 Maybe tone down the aggressiveness a little; you've been 
 generating a lot of noise lately.

Lately? I've only recently discovered D. What are you comparing my current noise level to? Besides, most of my posts have been constructive, to my mind. Granted, I got a bit frustrated yesterday, but so what?
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 09:33:57 UTC, David wrote:
 It's not D itself I have a problem with. It's the complete 
 lack of reliable tools for it. No IDE. No GUI designer. No 
 nothing. Coding a real application in D is like using Cobra, 
 or Nemerle - in short, frustrating and slow.

Mh, if this is *your* opinion, why are you using D then?

Of course it's *my* opinion. Whose else opinion would it be? And that's just the point. I'm *not* using D. I *want* to be using D, and I've been *trying* to use D, but I keep hitting strange compiler errors and libraries that won't compile (i.e. DFL). I like D. It's been well-thought-out. But without tools, how can it be used? Yeah, I know, many of you don't use IDEs - but tell me this. How can I write a GUI? Whether you like GUIs is beside the point: Applications need them. There's no point writing a decent-sized program without one. And yet (without DFL) you have no library support for them whatsoever. To create a window or a button, I must use CreateWindow(). To handle events, I must use GetMessageA(). To resize controls when the parent window changes size, I have to do it all by hand, in code. DFL and intellisense. Those are the areas this project is lacking.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 10:59:49 UTC, Don Clugston wrote:
 Yeah, we still have *miles* to go on the toolchain. As a 
 community we've been putting most of our effort into getting 
 the compiler stable, and to a lesser extent working on the the 
 standard library. Most of the other things are one-man shows.
 The Eclipse plugin and DFL have both been abandoned for years.
 Mono-D and VisualD are progressing quite well but again they 
 are only one-man shows.

 We need more people.

Agreed. I don't know if I can help much - I'm not an expert on low-level things like compilers and such, and I do my best work in .NET; but there may be something I can do. Maybe write a better IDE, with intellisense, I dunno. It'd have to be .NET based. Or maybe I could work with you guys on devising a new DFL. I've had loads of experience with the .NET standard library for GUIs (System.Windows.Forms). I don't have much experience in the D language, but if it was a joint effort, that wouldn't matter so much. What does everyone think? (Except Jakob, who thinks I'm ignorant)
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 11:20:53 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 Mh, if this is *your* opinion, why are you using D then?

Because its community is helpful and friendly :-)

lol ;)
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 00:30:50 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote:
 Oh, and if there are complaints of LoadLibraryA or whatever not 
 being nothrow, remove any trace of nothrow from those modules.

Yeah, that didn't work. bash.exe"-3.1$ dmd -lib -ofdfl *.d internal/*.d -I.. DFL: dfl.com is deprecated, please import dfl.internal.com; dfl.com is provided for compatibility only folderdialog.d(33): Error: cannot implicitly convert expression (& fbdHookProc) of type extern (Windows) int function(void* hwnd, uint msg, int lparam, int lpDa ta) to extern (Windows) int function(void* hwnd, uint uMsg, int lParam, int lpDa ta) nothrow fontdialog.d(30): Error: cannot implicitly convert expression (& fondHookProc) o f type extern (Windows) uint function(void*, uint, uint, int) to extern (Windows ) uint function(void* hdlg, uint uiMsg, uint wParam, int lParam) nothrow Sigh.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bernard Helyer" <b.helyer gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Your swipes at Linux are ignorant and non-constructive.

Ignorant? I'm no expert, certainly, but ignorant?

Yes, ignorant. You're an ignorant fool. Worst part is you don't even know it.
 I never said D was crap. I said its tools don't work. I was 
 disappointed that I couldn't use D to write an application. 
 Does that sound like someone who doesn't like the language?

 Your issues with compiling DFL are rooted completely in your 
 own ignorance of the C/C++/D compilation model.

Er, no. Before I used .NET, I used C++ almost exclusively for a number of years. I'm a little out of practice, but I understand the general principles involved.

No you don't, or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.
 You have a lot to learn and you should know that by now.

Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years.

Well jesus, a BSc, aren't you just a fucking genius. Fuck off. Stop wasting our time.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 7/31/12, Stuart <stugol gmx.com> wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 00:30:50 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote:
 Oh, and if there are complaints of LoadLibraryA or whatever not
 being nothrow, remove any trace of nothrow from those modules.

Yeah, that didn't work.

I've had some success with using DGui, which seems to be loosely based on DFL. http://code.google.com/p/dgui/ It seems to compile with DMD 2.059, although it needs fixing for the upcoming 2.060. Personally if I maintained DFL I'd make a simpler build script because there were many posts about failing to build DFL over the last years..
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "q66" <quaker66 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Lately? I've only recently discovered D. What are you comparing 
 my current noise level to? Besides, most of my posts have been 
 constructive, to my mind. Granted, I got a bit frustrated 
 yesterday, but so what?

There's only one answer I could imagine: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "q66" <quaker66 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of 
 programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc in 
 Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. So 
 let's have less of the condescension, hmm?

errr I meant this :)
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Minas" <minas_mina1990 hotmail.co.uk> writes:
I'm currently using Mono-D in Monodevelop and it's working really 
well. Just make sure you install Monodevelop 3.0+
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Minas" <minas_mina1990 hotmail.co.uk> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 20:26:06 UTC, Minas wrote:
 I'm currently using Mono-D in Monodevelop and it's working 
 really well. Just make sure you install Monodevelop 3.0+

And intellisense is working really well!
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Ettienne" <ettienne.gilbert gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 22:54:59 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 21:40:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 A ModuleInfo is generated for each compiled module and 
 inserted into its corresponding .obj file. If the linker 
 cannot find it, then it is likely that you need to specify 
 that .obj on the link command.

Ah, it would seem that my problem is with DFL not compiling. Look guys, I'm about ready to give up here. I like the idea of D, but it's like using fucking Linux: Absolutely everything needs to be compiled before you can use it; and nothing will compile because you need to do fifty other goddamn things that aren't mentioned in the readme, so you have to post on dozens of sodding forums for a week hoping someone throws you a bone.

started using DFL some years ago (along with VisualD). In the end it wasn't too bad, but there are some "catcha"s to be aware of. So I figure the best I can do for you (and to avoid one extremely long message) is to do a blog posting on this - see http://objectmonkey.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/using-dfl-with-visuald/. Hope it helps!
 All I want is to be able to write a GUI application using 
 phrases like "button1.dock = Fill". Is that so much to ask? 
 Apparently it is.

 DFL won't compile. D-IDE doesn't work at all. VisualD crashes 
 all the time. The Eclipse IDE plugin doesn't work either. None 
 of the IDEs have any kind of reliable intellisense. The 
 optional "module" keywords aren't optional. The whole fucking 
 thing's a shambles, just like everything else designed for 
 Linux.

 It's really getting on my tits. Even using MFC is easier than 
 this.

Actually, if you are stuck in Windows land and really need to use VS for whatever reason (and don't need portability to other OS's) I found the DFL+VisualD combo to be acceptable for doing GUI development. It isn't as polished as C#/Delphi/C++ Builder as far as all the RAD Form stuff goes, but it is useable - so hang in there! Ettienne
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:07:52 UTC, q66 wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of 
 programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc 
 in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. So 
 let's have less of the condescension, hmm?

errr I meant this :)

If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant. And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win. Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful community" I've heard so much about.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 18:53:43 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Er, no. Before I used .NET, I used C++ almost exclusively for 
 a number of years. I'm a little out of practice, but I 
 understand the general principles involved.

No you don't, or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

Ah, so I'm a liar. Right.
 You have a lot to learn and you should know that by now.

Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years.

Well jesus, a BSc, aren't you just a fucking genius. Fuck off. Stop wasting our time.

If this is what you guys on here consider a friendly and helpful attitude, I'm not impressed. You in particular, Bernard, can suck my rosy red arse, you rude objectionable scrote. I notice nobody else at all has objected to my being told to fuck off and stop wasting people's time. I guess it's okay for people to talk to me like that, yes? I can just fuck off if everyone would rather. After this blatant abuse - which has gone unremarked, it seems - I'm seriously considering leaving.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:05:07 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 I've had some success with using DGui, which seems to be 
 loosely based
 on DFL. http://code.google.com/p/dgui/

I can't find any trace of documentation on that site.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, August 01, 2012 02:44:55 Stuart wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:07:52 UTC, q66 wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of
 programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc
 in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. So
 let's have less of the condescension, hmm?

errr I meant this :)

If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant. And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win. Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful community" I've heard so much about.

Well, I think that on a whole, the community is friendly and helpful, but that's not always the case, and there _have_ been some rather rude responses in this thread unfortunately. - Jonathan M Davis
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, August 01, 2012 02:48:43 Stuart wrote:
 I notice nobody else at all has objected to my being told to fuck
 off and stop wasting people's time. I guess it's okay for people
 to talk to me like that, yes?

I don't agree with Bernard at all (and for the most, I don't think that anyone else does either). It's just that I generally ignore nasty comments and trolls. I also suspect that given the length of this thread, there are plenty of people who never read his response, which would at least partially explain why no one has spoken up about it. Bernard has said some good things on this list before, so he's not a complete troll, but he _does_ seem to get very rude, very quickly, which is a detriment to the community as evidenced by your response. And his response in this case was particularly rude. If he doesn't want to help you, he doesn't need to respond. Rudeness helps no one. - Jonathan M Davis
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 01:10:30 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I've also been surprised by Bernard's exaggerated reaction. 
 Your vent was not the most unreasonable out there.

Mm. I just got really frustrated at not being able to use this interesting new language. (Which, incidentally, I still cannot do because the (helpful, constructive) suggestions for compiling DFL or finding alternatives have not, in fact, worked.)
 I can just fuck off if everyone would rather. After this 
 blatant abuse -
 which has gone unremarked, it seems - I'm seriously 
 considering leaving.

Are you threatening to leave an online forum? Now this is exactly the kind of immature thing that won't help any.

Threatening? No. I was simply being honest. After that entirely undeserved attack, I was considering leaving the forum and giving up on D. Some people are trying to help me and are being constructive; but some have been complete pricks, and that's really not helping my enthusiasm for the project.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 01:12:37 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:
 On 08/01/2012 02:44 AM, Stuart wrote:
 If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant.
 And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win.

- Why would it be interesting to talk about whether someone 'knows something' or not? This is d.D.

I didn't say it was interesting. I was called ignorant, and it was implied that I was a programming newbie. So I pointed out that I was not. And then got a bunch of flak for that too.
 - Why is it important whether or not some random guy on
   the internet thinks some statements are ignorant?

I assumed that most people who posted on this forum were relevant to the project. I mean, it's hardly a subject that should attract random trolls, I would've thought.
 Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful 
 community" I've heard so much about.

Why? It is friendly and helpful. Even more so if it is treated as such.

Some of it is, yes. But the ones who aren't are spoiling it somewhat. And as I say, I assumed everyone on this forum was either a dev or a user. I wasn't expecting drive-by trolling. And yes, I may have been a little negative in this thread, but it's because I really found D interesting and wanted to use it; and discovered that I couldn't.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "q66" <quaker66 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 00:44:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:07:52 UTC, q66 wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 17:16:56 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 Oh, now, that's going too far. Do you think I'm some kind of 
 programming newbie? A college student, perhaps? I have a BSc 
 in Software Engineering, and I've been coding for 16 years. 
 So let's have less of the condescension, hmm?

errr I meant this :)

If I don't point out that I know something, I'm ignorant. And when I do, I'm a showoff. I can't win. Maybe I should just give up on this "friendly and helpful community" I've heard so much about.

You are ignorant, no matter whether you have a BSc in software engineering or not; you've had enough chances to prove that you are. Also, maybe you should - I don't think anybody really gives a fuck.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "q66" <quaker66 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 01:10:30 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 7/31/12 8:48 PM, Stuart wrote:
 I notice nobody else at all has objected to my being told to 
 fuck off
 and stop wasting people's time. I guess it's okay for people 
 to talk to
 me like that, yes?

I've also been surprised by Bernard's exaggerated reaction. Your vent was not the most unreasonable out there. This is an unmoderated newsgroup and although personal attacks do happen, they are very rare.
 I can just fuck off if everyone would rather. After this 
 blatant abuse -
 which has gone unremarked, it seems - I'm seriously 
 considering leaving.

Are you threatening to leave an online forum? Now this is exactly the kind of immature thing that won't help any. No, personal attacks are not welcome here, but you needn't have an emotional answer to a head hotter than yours. Andrei

Bernard's reaction was entirely reasonable, spewing ignorant bullshit all around and then being like "hurr durr i have a bsc from software engineering, no wai" deserves no better.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "q66" <quaker66 gmail.com> writes:
 Bernard's reaction was entirely reasonable, spewing ignorant 
 bullshit all around and then being like "hurr durr i have a bsc 
 from software engineering, no wai" deserves no better.

By the way, he's only proving what I said with these "hurrr I'm gonna leave" responses (not that it wasn't apparent before). With this attitude, I can say only one thing: "fuck off faggot"
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 8/1/12, Stuart <stugol gmx.com> wrote:
 On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 at 19:05:07 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 I've had some success with using DGui, which seems to be
 loosely based
 on DFL. http://code.google.com/p/dgui/

I can't find any trace of documentation on that site.

The docs can be generated via the compiler (it comes with a batch script that does that). But if you want a stable GUI library GtkD is probably your best bet.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bernard Helyer" <b.helyer gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 02:00:05 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 7/31/12 9:39 PM, q66 wrote:
 No reaction that strong is reasonable, regardless of context.

Perhaps not.
 It's not a civilized response to anything. Probably this 
 meta-talk has long run its course. We're one Hitler mention 
 away from complete mayhem :o).

Appeasement, eh? JUST LIKE CHAMBERLAIN
 All - please, let's stay civil.

I'll admit, I came on a bit strong. Still, if I think someone's being an arse, I'm going to call it like I see it. New comer or not. I'm not being a paid support rep here, I'll give back snark in return. Now Stuart, I'll apologise if I have caused offense, and offer a question -- where are you getting your DFL sources from?
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 02:35:13 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote:
 Now Stuart, I'll apologise if I have caused offense, and offer
 a question -- where are you getting your DFL sources from?

You'll apologise if telling me to fuck off and stop wasting everyone's time caused offence? Oooh, I dunno how likely that might be. I want no help from an unreasonable twat like you. Incidentally, I was getting the DFL sources from the official repository. On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 01:30:07 UTC, q66 wrote:
 You are ignorant, no matter whether you have a BSc in software 
 engineering or not; you've had enough chances to prove that you 
 are. Also, maybe you should - I don't think anybody really 
 gives a fuck.

 Bernard's reaction was entirely reasonable, spewing ignorant 
 bullshit all around and then being like "hurr durr i have a bsc 
 from software engineering, no wai" deserves no better.

 "fuck off faggot"

Uhuh. Another cock.
 Any help you can give will be most appreciated by the D 
 community.

If this kind of abuse is indicative of the "D community", I'll keep my help to myself.
 I certainly wish you'd stay. I don't believe Bernard is 
 representative of our community.

Perhaps not, but he's certainly lowering my opinion of this forum and its members. I would like to point out AGAIN that my claim of a BSc in Software Engineering was not bragging; but simply a statement that I was not "ignorant" of the general principles of coding and of C/C++. I fail to see why it has immediately earned me large amounts of abuse. While I appreciate the help of some people on here, it seems this forum is populated at least 50% by complete cocks. Also, as it stands, D is NOT USABLE for any serious purpose (such as writing an application); and I'm not prepared to put up with the level of abuse and trolling that's coming my way. You may notice I insulted nobody who didn't insult me first. I don't mind a bit of banter and bad language, but I draw the line at personal attacks. Either they stop or I do.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Chris Cain" <clcain uncg.edu> writes:
Stuart, I highly recommend you reread the first 4 pages of this 
topic. You should notice everyone trying to help you and give you 
information on what was going on. You should also notice (if you 
make any attempt at all to pay attention) that your posts were 
fairly confrontational and could be interpreted to be insulting 
(by "could be", I mean "has", at this point, of course).

You responded to peoples' escalations with more escalations. 
Obviously, that almost never works and has simply fanned the 
flames.

Even now there are people trying to extend olive branches to you 
even though you continue to be insulting. If you continue this, 
you can only expect more people to join in on the conversation to 
give you a piece of their minds.

I recommend a break from this topic (permanently, ideally) and 
relax for awhile. You seem to be wound tight and there's no sense 
in taking your frustrations out on your fellow programmers like 
this.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Ovrum" <jakobovrum gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 02:50:08 UTC, Stuart wrote:
 You'll apologise if telling me to fuck off and stop wasting 
 everyone's time caused offence? Oooh, I dunno how likely that 
 might be. I want no help from an unreasonable twat like you.

So far you're proving no better than him.
 If this kind of abuse is indicative of the "D community", I'll 
 keep my help to myself.

Only the arrogant, confrontational ones invite this kind of abuse.
 Perhaps not, but he's certainly lowering my opinion of this 
 forum and its members. I would like to point out AGAIN that my 
 claim of a BSc in Software Engineering was not bragging; but 
 simply a statement that I was not "ignorant" of the general 
 principles of coding and of C/C++. I fail to see why it has 
 immediately earned me large amounts of abuse.

One doesn't need to have an education in programming to know how the C++ compilation model works, and having a BSc in Software Engineering does not mean one necessarily knows either. It's a meaningless assertion to make. I called you ignorant of the C/C++/D compilation model because you were being excessively confrontational even though your question was really more fit for dm.D.learn than anything. It isn't a personal attack, either, not sure why you'd take it that way.
 While I appreciate the help of some people on here, it seems 
 this forum is populated at least 50% by complete cocks. Also, 
 as it stands, D is NOT USABLE for any serious purpose (such as 
 writing an application); and I'm not prepared to put up with 
 the level of abuse and trolling that's coming my way. You may 
 notice I insulted nobody who didn't insult me first.

 I don't mind a bit of banter and bad language, but I draw the 
 line at personal attacks. Either they stop or I do.

With rampant hyperbole like this, you're only worsening the statistic you mentioned. You've been doing this in nearly every post you've made on this NewsGroup. You're definitely not going to have a pleasant experience at this rate. I'd like to engage in constructive conversation about any issue you may have with D and the D ecosystem, but you're hardly making it easy for us.
Jul 31 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> writes:
On Monday, 30 July 2012 at 16:31:07 UTC, Stuart wrote:

You can't except whole community to take responsibility for 
couple people being rude.

Bernard is very helpful and cool guy but he gets high sometimes, 
q66 is just q66, he tends to add fuel to the fire ech :)

I can't help you about DFL but I can say about my experience with 
GUI development with D.

I wrote couple medium-size GUI applications with D using GtkD.
It scales quite well, and with help of gtk-wimp it gives it 
"native" look on windows too. Also with Glide and GTK-Builder its 
possible to make RAD, Glide is quite good GUI builder.

Although I need to mentioned that I had no experience with 
Windows 8 yet.

Qt or WxWidgets would be best solutions but again, there is more 
manpower required to make those boats float. Last time I checked 
WxD with minor tweaks worked with wx2.9 (cocoa support :D) and 
works completely fine with wx2.8

About IDE thingy, I really love Mono-D, it works great for me and 
I can recommend
it to anyone. If you are having problems with it, please report 
bug on https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D - Alex is **BLAZING** 
fast on fixing stuff, trust me.
Aug 01 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Stuart" <stugol gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 1 August 2012 at 03:24:43 UTC, Chris Cain wrote:
 Even now there are people trying to extend olive branches to 
 you even though you continue to be insulting.

Insulting only the people who have insulted me.
 You seem to be wound tight and there's no sense in taking your
 frustrations out on your fellow programmers like this.

I'm not. I'm taking out my frustrations on the people who are telling me to fuck off. I have no problem with those of you who have been reasonable.
Aug 01 2012
prev sibling parent 1100110 <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:31:45 -0500, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 On 2012-07-31 19:30, Stuart wrote:

 Of course it's *my* opinion. Whose else opinion would it be?

 And that's just the point. I'm *not* using D. I *want* to be using D,
 and I've been *trying* to use D, but I keep hitting strange compiler
 errors and libraries that won't compile (i.e. DFL).

 I like D. It's been well-thought-out. But without tools, how can it be
 used? Yeah, I know, many of you don't use IDEs - but tell me this. How
 can I write a GUI? Whether you like GUIs is beside the point:
 Applications need them. There's no point writing a decent-sized program
 without one. And yet (without DFL) you have no library support for them
 whatsoever. To create a window or a button, I must use CreateWindow().
 To handle events, I must use GetMessageA(). To resize controls when the
 parent window changes size, I have to do it all by hand, in code.

 DFL and intellisense. Those are the areas this project is lacking.

Have a look at DWT, I think it should work with DMD 2.059. http://dsource.org/projects/dwt https://github.com/d-widget-toolkit/dwt

around somewhere... -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Aug 04 2012