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digitalmars.D - How convince computer teacher

reply Ddev <Ddev DProgramming.com> writes:
hi community,
How convince my teacher to go in D ?
After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 years is
not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could convince my
teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
students :)

best regards
Dec 09 2010
next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Ddev" <Ddev DProgramming.com> wrote in message 
news:idr024$280n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could 
 convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

First of all, 99% of teachers are complete morons, so take any opinions from them with a very large grain of salt. Second, a LOT of languages take ten years before becoming big. Python and Ruby, for example. The only time a language ever gets big right out of the gate is when there's some major corporation trying to push it on people.
Dec 09 2010
next sibling parent reply Justin Johansson <noreply jj.com> writes:
On 10/12/10 03:33, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Ddev"<Ddev DProgramming.com>  wrote in message
 news:idr024$280n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could
 convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

First of all, 99% of teachers are complete morons, so take any opinions from them with a very large grain of salt.

Exactly. It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the 50% of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the salary of the rest of them.
Dec 13 2010
next sibling parent reply Justin Johansson <noreply jj.com> writes:
On 14/12/10 01:20, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Justin Johansson<noreply jj.com>  wrote:
 On 10/12/10 03:33, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Ddev"<Ddev DProgramming.com>    wrote in message
 news:idr024$280n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i
 could
 convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

First of all, 99% of teachers are complete morons, so take any opinions from them with a very large grain of salt.

Exactly. It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the 50% of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the salary of the rest of them.

So there are only enough teachers for 50% of the students, who now get a better education, while the other students don't get an education at all? Doesn't sound that great..

You are clearly wrong in your conclusion. My hypothesis is that by attracting better talent for teaching we may teach for the betterment of all. How you have extrapolated 50% of students for 50% of teachers if beyond me.
Dec 13 2010
parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Justin Johansson" <noreply jj.com> wrote in message 
news:ie5boj$24nm$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 14/12/10 01:20, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Justin Johansson<noreply jj.com> 
 wrote:
 On 10/12/10 03:33, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Ddev"<Ddev DProgramming.com>    wrote in message
 news:idr024$280n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i
 could
 convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

First of all, 99% of teachers are complete morons, so take any opinions from them with a very large grain of salt.

Exactly. It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the 50% of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the salary of the rest of them.

So there are only enough teachers for 50% of the students, who now get a better education, while the other students don't get an education at all? Doesn't sound that great..

You are clearly wrong in your conclusion. My hypothesis is that by attracting better talent for teaching we may teach for the betterment of all. How you have extrapolated 50% of students for 50% of teachers if beyond me.

I think he meant 50% fewer teachers leads to a doubled workload for the remaining teachers. Although if you ask me, most students in school these days *aren't* getting an education anyway, what with incompetent/uninterested/tenured teachers and students that are in college for no reason other than get drunk and kiss enough ass to get the utterly meaningless piece of paper that they're told by the all the mindless zombies they should have. "If you want an education, get a library card." Schools are for drunks with rich parents.
Dec 13 2010
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Daniel Gibson" <metalcaedes gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.982.1292310762.21107.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a a.a> wrote:
 "Justin Johansson" <noreply jj.com> wrote in message
 news:ie5boj$24nm$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 14/12/10 01:20, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Justin Johansson<noreply jj.com>
 wrote:
 Exactly. It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the 50%
 of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the 
 salary
 of
 the rest of them.

So there are only enough teachers for 50% of the students, who now get a better education, while the other students don't get an education at all? Doesn't sound that great..

You are clearly wrong in your conclusion. My hypothesis is that by attracting better talent for teaching we may teach for the betterment of all. How you have extrapolated 50% of students for 50% of teachers if beyond me.

I think he meant 50% fewer teachers leads to a doubled workload for the remaining teachers.

Exactly. I am assuming that most teachers workloads can't be increased much (if it could, there weren't as many teachers to start with, the schools won't pay more teachers than needed), so if 50% of the teachers are fired, about 50% of the students can't be taught. Maybe class sizes could be increased a bit and the remaining teachers could work some more - but it'd still be maybe 40% of the students that can't be taught and with bigger classes and more work those good teachers probably won't be that great anymore, anyway.

Well, like I said before, the way I see it, most students aren't really being taught right now anyway. The teachers and students go through the motions but there's little-to-no actual teaching/learning going on. So I think educating 50% of students would be a huge net gain.
Dec 14 2010
prev sibling parent Justin Johansson <noreply jj.com> writes:
Typo s/if/is/

 How you have extrapolated 50% of students for 50% of teachers is beyond
 me.

Dec 13 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Justin Johansson <noreply jj.com> wrote:
 On 10/12/10 03:33, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Ddev"<Ddev DProgramming.com> =A0wrote in message
 news:idr024$280n$1 digitalmars.com...
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i
 could
 convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

First of all, 99% of teachers are complete morons, so take any opinions from them with a very large grain of salt.

Exactly. =A0It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the 50% of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the salary =

 the rest of them.

So there are only enough teachers for 50% of the students, who now get a be= tter education, while the other students don't get an education at all? Doesn't sound that great..
Dec 13 2010
prev sibling parent Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a a.a> wrote:
 "Justin Johansson" <noreply jj.com> wrote in message
 news:ie5boj$24nm$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 14/12/10 01:20, Daniel Gibson wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Justin Johansson<noreply jj.com>
 wrote:
 Exactly. =A0It is high time 99% of educational institutions fired the =




 of mediocre (and worse) teachers/tutors/lecturers and doubled the sala=




 of
 the rest of them.

So there are only enough teachers for 50% of the students, who now get =



 better
 education, while the other students don't get an education at all?
 Doesn't sound that great..

You are clearly wrong in your conclusion. My hypothesis is that by attracting better talent for teaching we may teach for the betterment of all. How you have extrapolated 50% of students for 50% of teachers if beyond me.

I think he meant 50% fewer teachers leads to a doubled workload for the remaining teachers.

Exactly. I am assuming that most teachers workloads can't be increased much (if it could, there weren't as many teachers to start with, the schools won't pay more teachers than needed), so if 50% of the teachers are fired, about 50% of the students can't be taught. Maybe class sizes could be increased a bit and the remaining teachers could work some more - but it'd still be maybe 40% of the students that can't be taught and with bigger classes and more work those good teachers probably won't be= that great anymore, anyway.
Dec 13 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
Ddev Wrote:

 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 years is
not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could convince my
teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)
 
 best regards

As Nick says, 10 years is when the language gets noticed. Then you have the push that brings it to the main stream, and that time period varies. But as for getting D to be taught in class. The is no reason the language has to be big. Come up with something that should be taught to students (meta-programming, pointers, functional, object, dynamic vs type inference) and demonstrate how D can make teaching these concepts easier.
Dec 09 2010
next sibling parent reply Jean Crystof <news news.com> writes:
Jesse Phillips Wrote:

 Ddev Wrote:
 
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 years is
not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could convince my
teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)
 
 best regards

As Nick says, 10 years is when the language gets noticed. Then you have the push that brings it to the main stream, and that time period varies. But as for getting D to be taught in class. The is no reason the language has to be big. Come up with something that should be taught to students (meta-programming, pointers, functional, object, dynamic vs type inference) and demonstrate how D can make teaching these concepts easier.

In our school Microsoft donates good developer tools (C#, ASP, Web framework, Ajax, SQL server, Visual Studio) and provides operating system (Xp or 7). Also quest lectures from Microsoft or partners, but only about Microsoft technology stack. Is more a vocational college. We study tools at school, then do training period in interns. Is hard to get D through. I'd use D instead but how to convince? The intership means you can not choose tools, you a small worker in a big project. At school they get materials elsewhere, some commercial company maybe. Look polished. They laugh if you show D specs and D man. I was thinking make a public wiki project to create D material, but it need marketing to get through. And students don't trust D. You get no job with D. You start a probe period at intern place often with Microsoft technology and continue to non-programming positions later. Where D fits in?
Dec 09 2010
parent reply Jean Crystof <news news.com> writes:
so Wrote:

 In our school Microsoft donates good developer tools (C#, ASP, Web  
 framework, Ajax, SQL server, Visual Studio) and provides operating  
 system (Xp or 7). Also quest lectures from Microsoft or partners, but  
 only about Microsoft technology stack. Is more a vocational college. We  
 study tools at school, then do training period in interns.

Sorry i can't resist! Are they really calling that "donation"? How is this any better than feeding chickens in a chicken farm/factory? :D

You're right. There is lock in at some point. But they make dev tools for students really attractive. And good MSDNAA deals and other non publicly available pricing deals with departments who resists market dominance. They sell whole platform. It works in HTML5 web, in Xbox, in Windows Phones, in many places. The teacher sees no value in D, D is just hobby project. Big money is spent in Microsoft advertising and I'd say corruption.
Dec 09 2010
parent Seung-Hui Cho <32frags VirginiaTech.com> writes:
so Wrote:

 On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:10:02 +0200, Jean Crystof <news news.com> wrote:
 
 so Wrote:

 In our school Microsoft donates good developer tools (C#, ASP, Web
 framework, Ajax, SQL server, Visual Studio) and provides operating
 system (Xp or 7). Also quest lectures from Microsoft or partners, but
 only about Microsoft technology stack. Is more a vocational college.  

 study tools at school, then do training period in interns.

Sorry i can't resist! Are they really calling that "donation"? How is this any better than feeding chickens in a chicken farm/factory? :D

You're right. There is lock in at some point. But they make dev tools for students really attractive. And good MSDNAA deals and other non publicly available pricing deals with departments who resists market dominance. They sell whole platform. It works in HTML5 web, in Xbox, in Windows Phones, in many places. The teacher sees no value in D, D is just hobby project. Big money is spent in Microsoft advertising and I'd say corruption.

Of course an ordinary teacher sees no value in D. They don't lift the weight, they are not programmers. What annoys me is seeing the programmers do the same thing.

Would be easiest to just shoot the annoying teachers and become a teacher yourself. Been there, done that. All hail the great D.
Dec 10 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.do> writes:
 In our school Microsoft donates good developer tools (C#, ASP, Web  
 framework, Ajax, SQL server, Visual Studio) and provides operating  
 system (Xp or 7). Also quest lectures from Microsoft or partners, but  
 only about Microsoft technology stack. Is more a vocational college. We  
 study tools at school, then do training period in interns.

Sorry i can't resist! Are they really calling that "donation"? How is this any better than feeding chickens in a chicken farm/factory? :D -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Dec 09 2010
prev sibling parent so <so so.do> writes:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:10:02 +0200, Jean Crystof <news news.com> wrote:

 so Wrote:

 In our school Microsoft donates good developer tools (C#, ASP, Web
 framework, Ajax, SQL server, Visual Studio) and provides operating
 system (Xp or 7). Also quest lectures from Microsoft or partners, but
 only about Microsoft technology stack. Is more a vocational college.  

 study tools at school, then do training period in interns.

Sorry i can't resist! Are they really calling that "donation"? How is this any better than feeding chickens in a chicken farm/factory? :D

You're right. There is lock in at some point. But they make dev tools for students really attractive. And good MSDNAA deals and other non publicly available pricing deals with departments who resists market dominance. They sell whole platform. It works in HTML5 web, in Xbox, in Windows Phones, in many places. The teacher sees no value in D, D is just hobby project. Big money is spent in Microsoft advertising and I'd say corruption.

Of course an ordinary teacher sees no value in D. They don't lift the weight, they are not programmers. What annoys me is seeing the programmers do the same thing. -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Dec 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:
On 09.12.2010 17:27, Ddev wrote:
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 years is
not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could convince my
teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

 best regards

D is based on languages like C and Java, and is syntactically very similar to those. So if you already know programming, D is probably very easy to learn. Try to learn about programming in general, not about a specific language. The language matters, but everything else is more important.
Dec 09 2010
parent reply Fawzi Mohamed <fawzi gmx.ch> writes:
On 10-dic-10, at 03:38, torhu wrote:

 On 09.12.2010 17:27, Ddev wrote:
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after  
 10 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D.  
 If i could convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach  
 to his
 students :)

 best regards

D is based on languages like C and Java, and is syntactically very similar to those. So if you already know programming, D is probably very easy to learn. Try to learn about programming in general, not about a specific language. The language matters, but everything else is more important.

++ Now to convince a teacher insulting teachers that do not want to use D is not a very good strategy, there are good reasons not to choose D, and obscurity is for sure one of them, personally I find that the advantages offset the disadvantages, you can try to show her how close to C it is, but still clean. TDPL is a nice book, you can also give that to her to look at. And you can tell her that the language is close enough to other languages so that it will not be wasted even if they later use another one. The quick compiler and support of most C++ features, but in a clean way can be a good selling point. Fawzi
Dec 10 2010
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
Fawzi Mohamed wrote:

 the language is close enough to other
 languages so that it will not be wasted even if they later use 

That's exactly what I tell beginners when they ask whether they should invest their time in D. D is full of common modern language concepts, some of which they will miss if they move to other languages. :) Ali
Dec 10 2010
prev sibling parent reply Austin Hastings <ah08010-d yahoo.com> writes:
On 12/9/2010 11:27 AM, Ddev wrote:
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10 years is
not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i could convince my
teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

Please don't. D is a language with essentially zero base. Companies using D are few and far between. The vast majority of D projects are abandoned. Support for the tools is spotty, intermittent, and seems to depend to a large extent on politics and ego. Similarly, the amount of "churn" in the std.* namespace is pretty clear cause for concern. Technically, there is very little new in D, and what appear to be planned features have not made much development progress. Learning D means that other related languages (Java, C++, C) would appear to have fewer features in terms of syntax, but will permit writing the same programs. It's a lot nicer to learn to program in Pascal and then discover C than it would be to learn to program in C and then be forced into Pascal. From an employment perspective, most managers don't know about D. They do know about C++ and Java. Having D on your resume is likely to be a net negative. (You have to unlearn D, and then learn C++ or Java, and no doubt you'll be whining about it the whole time.) The place where D2 seems to offer value lies in metaprogramming, since it supports a friendlier syntax. But if you're doing any kind of survey course, it seems straightforward to move from Java to Functional to C++ metaprogramming, which should eliminate the difficulty. I don't see where D has anything to offer a computer teacher. There isn't a convenient, trivially-installed IDE (Java, .NET). There isn't any corporate grant money (Java, .NET). There isn't any industry demand (Java, C++, .NET). There isn't any piece of amazing new technology that is only available in D (Java, Ruby, Assembly). There isn't an incredibly diverse collection of existing code freely available (Java, Perl). There isn't an enormous installed base (Java, .NET, Perl, C, C++, Cobol, Ada, Fortran, Ruby, Python). It isn't a dumbed down teaching language (Pascal, Java, Lisp). Bottom line: you'd be wasting your time and your teacher's time. If you're still in school, you shouldn't be looking at D at all. You should be learning some of the functional languages to stretch your brain, or learning some of the popular procedural languages to pad your resume. =Austin
Dec 13 2010
next sibling parent JMRyan <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Austin Hastings <ah08010-d yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ie64dv$uvl$1 digitalmars.com: 

 I don't see where D has anything to offer a computer teacher. There 
 isn't a convenient, trivially-installed IDE (Java, .NET).  ....

No IDE? My, my, how we coddle our students today! The IDE for my first programming course, was a keypunch machine. We carried our IBM punch cards 2 miles through the snow to the local university and returned 3 days later to pick them up. (Okay, okay, my high school math teacher drove the cards, but I'm not telling my kids that.) The IDE for my first college programming course was vi.
Dec 13 2010
prev sibling parent retard <re tard.com.invalid> writes:
Mon, 13 Dec 2010 16:45:09 -0500, Austin Hastings wrote:

 On 12/9/2010 11:27 AM, Ddev wrote:
 hi community,
 How convince my teacher to go in D ?
 After talk with my teacher, i do not think D is good because after 10
 years is not become the big one. she is very skeptical about D. If i
 could convince my teacher it will be great maybe i will teach to his
 students :)

Please don't.

[snip]
 Bottom line: you'd be wasting your time and your teacher's time. If
 you're still in school, you shouldn't be looking at D at all. You should
 be learning some of the functional languages to stretch your brain, or
 learning some of the popular procedural languages to pad your resume.

(To you who wonder whether he is a troll since he disagrees with you -- As far as I can tell, the indentity is real and unique. It just so happens that not everyone wants to advocate D blindly) I agree with you, you have great points there. In my school they used to have different computer science programs for theoretical stuff and "vocational" engineering studies. The latter mostly used commercial Java/.NET/C++ toolchain to do the stuff. The theoretical program used easily available languages (Scheme, C, Assembly, Pascal, Java, Haskell, Coq). The focus __wasn't__ on languages. The main goals were: 1) basic programming: how to program a computer, how to use abstractions, how to program in the small using procedures, classes, and objects. how to use build tools, IDEs, editors, command line (Scheme | Pascal | Java) 2) data structures and algorithms: time and space complexity, graphs, trees, lists, arrays, dynamic programming, maximum flow, divide and conquer, parallel programming, and so on. (Pascal like pseudo language was used, the idea was to provide a pure language with small amount of features and hidden costs) 3) low level programming: how the CPU works, how the memory system works, how binaries are constructed (Assembly) 4) programming languages: declarative, functional, stack, concurrent, logic, imperative, OOP, scripting (Haskell, Java, Perl, C, ... __oldest possible languages of that paradigm__) 5) practical programming with libraries: audio programming, graphics programming, AI, network programming, ... (mostly C/C++/Java) 6) functional languages and theorem proving (Haskell, Coq, ...) 7) software development practices: how to program/manage in large projects (version control, testing, project management, entrepreneurship, computer systems) (mostly Java/PHP/C++ in project works) 8) operating systems, networks, cryptography, compilers, mathematics: I don't think these were demonstrated with any languages. I fail to see where D fits in. 1) You would have to use a subset of D for basic programming. Providing too much information is harmful. Currently even SafeD is too big for this task. And the specification of SafeD isn't available anywhere. The lack of a good 64-bit compiler is also a great problem. It's intellectual dishonesty to claim that D is ready for this task. It could be! But it isn't now and not in the near future. 2) The idea was to avoid language dependencies. You had to explicitly write all algorithms and data structures, not use built-in ones. The pseudo language was really simple, similar to Pascal, but with some useful extensions. Many algorithmics textbooks also use these kind of languages. It made it really easy to study several of these books during the courses. If I had used D, it would be harder to read 40+ years worth of algorithm & data structure books. 3) I think the pure assembler is much useful than D's inline assembler for this stuff. We also learned how object file formats work (sections etc.) and how you can control the resulting binaries with special features. D doesn't really help here, does it? How is it better than a portable, fully tested production ready 100% free/open/portable assembler. 4) This was mostly a list of language history courses. Very interesting. We did not prove how D is much better than everything else. We studied tens of languages. The focus wasn't on practical language skills. We only learned how features like objects and expections and functional language thunks etc. are implemented (not in a single language, but in each one of them, also the bad implementations). How features can be combined (also the bad choices). How many different paradigms there are. What the world looked like in 1970. Really, why is D better than any of these languages? How would you built the material around D? 5) Where are the libraries? Where is the good documentation? One example: http://www.processing.org/ - does D really have something as good? http:// lwjgl.org/ - does D2 have an up-to-date library similar to this? Need more examples? http://www.springsource.org/ http://www.hibernate.org/ Where are the application servers, the web server plugins? Competitive XML parsers? AI libraries? IDE integration? The sad truth is, it will take years to surpass these existing ones in quality and their feature set. 6) So... you would really use D to teach purely functional programming and theorem proving? Seen this? http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional- Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504 Familiar with this stuff? http:// adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/toc.html Good luck! 7) I can only imagine you mention unit testing and contracts here on some lecture. What about test driven development, continuous integration etc. ? How does D explain XP, Scrum, OpenUP, or Waterfall processes? How does it work with UML? Any commercial quality tools with two-directional graph<->source transforms. I don't think so! How does D help with design patterns and sw architectures? Modules, yes. You need to have more content than that. Overall, the importance of a single language is miniscule compared to the amount of information you deal with while studying. The only place where it matters is when you need to use existing code base to boost your own stuff to another level (point 5 above). Even then the existing code weighs more than the language. I find this worrying here yet again annoying. Probably no other language community cares so much about publicity. What kind of religion is this? Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Sprache ?!
Dec 13 2010