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reply Dee Girl <deegirl noreply.com> writes:
I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need to
choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 

The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl
May 09 2008
next sibling parent reply BCS <BCS pathlink.com> writes:
Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



I use Phobos+1.0 because 2.0 is so chaotic regarding const and because I 
got started before there as a tango.

Someone has a D snapshot that has DMD, Tango and some other usefully 
stuff. So My reasons for Phobos are Darn weak for anyone new starting in.
May 09 2008
parent reply Dee Girl <deegirl noreply.com> writes:
BCS Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



 I use Phobos+1.0 because 2.0 is so chaotic regarding const and because I 
 got started before there as a tango.
 
 Someone has a D snapshot that has DMD, Tango and some other usefully 
 stuff. So My reasons for Phobos are Darn weak for anyone new starting in.



Thank you for the fast response. Maybe learning D1 before D2 can be compared to
C before C++. If that is true then it is best to start with D2. If each new
release of D2 does not break many programs in subtle ways maybe I will be fine
with D2. But is Phobos sufficient? Thank you, Dee Girl
May 09 2008
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Dee Girl" <deegirl noreply.com> wrote in message 
news:g02fb3$dj8$1 digitalmars.com...

 BCS Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll 
 need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos.

 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the 
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I 
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. 
 Thank you, Dee Girl



 I use Phobos+1.0 because 2.0 is so chaotic regarding const and because I
 got started before there as a tango.

 Someone has a D snapshot that has DMD, Tango and some other usefully
 stuff. So My reasons for Phobos are Darn weak for anyone new starting in.



 Thank you for the fast response. Maybe learning D1 before D2 can be 
 compared to C before C++. If that is true then it is best to start with 
 D2. If each new release of D2 does not break many programs in subtle ways 
 maybe I will be fine with D2. But is Phobos sufficient? Thank you, Dee 
 Girl



IMO:

Phobos should only be considered a fallback for when Tango isn't available. 
Phobos is the "official" standard, but Tango is the "de facto" standard. 
Kinda weird, but, ehh, one of the quirks of D.

So I'd say either "D1+Tango" or "D2+Phobos", which the edge going to 
"D1+Tango" just because Tango and Phobos are totally different, but D2 is 
(more or less) a superset of D1 (there are some small changes, but I'd say 
*mostly* it's the same thing with new features. New features that are not 
yet set in stone and could change before D2 eventually gets finalized.) Ie, 
IMO, down-the-road when Tango supports D2, transitioning from D1 to D2 
should be easier than keeping up with the D2 changes *and then* 
transitioning from Phobos to Tango.
May 09 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
Dee Girl wrote:

 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango,



Tango is very easily "stripped down" (i.e. dependencies between packages 
are well thought-out), so it's a lot easier to make Tango more minimal 
than it is to do with Phobos. Where does the whole "Phobos is more 
minimal" attitude come from (just that it's more similar to the C/C++ 
standard libraries or that its feature set is smaller...?)
May 09 2008
next sibling parent Dee Girl <deegirl noreply.com> writes:
Robert Fraser Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango,



 Tango is very easily "stripped down" (i.e. dependencies between packages 
 are well thought-out), so it's a lot easier to make Tango more minimal 
 than it is to do with Phobos. Where does the whole "Phobos is more 
 minimal" attitude come from (just that it's more similar to the C/C++ 
 standard libraries or that its feature set is smaller...?)



I was referring only in terms of what I need to learn to get going. I think
some aspects of Tango are more complicated than they could be. There is a
history of flame wars regarding Tango and Phobos. Therefore please allow me to
specify that I do not have any attitude yet, only a subjective impression. I
have not used either library yet. Thank you, Dee Girl
May 09 2008
prev sibling parent Neal Alexander <WQEQWEUQY HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
Robert Fraser wrote:

 Dee Girl wrote:

 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango,



 Tango is very easily "stripped down" (i.e. dependencies between packages 
 are well thought-out), so it's a lot easier to make Tango more minimal 
 than it is to do with Phobos. Where does the whole "Phobos is more 
 minimal" attitude come from (just that it's more similar to the C/C++ 
 standard libraries or that its feature set is smaller...?)



Yea from my personal experience all the code i ported to tango resulted 
in slightly smaller executable sizes - at least on win32.

The tango code is spread out over more source files, but each file is 
relatively small.
May 09 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Tower Ty <tytower hotmail.com.au> writes:
Dee Girl Wrote:


 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



You will waste a lot of time and then find it is underdeveloped , understaffed 
and grossly overstated but feel free to try . Post back when you see what I mean
May 09 2008
next sibling parent reply BCS <BCS pathlink.com> writes:
Tower Ty wrote: a comment that makes me wonder why he's still around.

Real question: If you think it's that bad, why bother?
May 09 2008
next sibling parent Neal Alexander <WQEQWEUQY HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Tower Ty wrote: a comment that makes me wonder why he's still around.
 
 Real question: If you think it's that bad, why bother?



Heh, its all the Java/.NET cut-n-paste coders who's heads expload when 
they come across a system that doesn't hold their hand through everything.

Which isnt to say D is anywhere near polished atm. But in reality, the 
only thing D needs now is a strong compiler and a high performance GC. 
The rest is more or less fluff.
May 09 2008
prev sibling parent terranium <spam here.lot> writes:
BCS Wrote:


 Tower Ty wrote: a comment that makes me wonder why he's still around.
 
 Real question: If you think it's that bad, why bother?



D still has cool features: unmanaged compared to .Net, nice syntax compared to
C++, good conditional compilation feature compared to all C family languages.
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 17:44:05 -0700, BCS wrote:


 Tower Ty wrote: a comment that makes me wonder why he's still around.
 
 Real question: If you think it's that bad, why bother?



he's answered this before, he has already spent time on it so he can't 
stop spending time on it. See the dilemma.
May 09 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Jesse,


 On Fri, 09 May 2008 17:44:05 -0700, BCS wrote:
 

 Tower Ty wrote: a comment that makes me wonder why he's still around.
 
 Real question: If you think it's that bad, why bother?
 



 stop spending time on it. See the dilemma.
 



Oh, he's addicted! (can't blame him, I've been there [with computers] once 
or twice)
May 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:
Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



Hello, Dee Girl :)

I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
and powerful, once you get to know it.

Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
with at the moment.

I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.
May 09 2008
next sibling parent Dee Girl <deegirl noreply.com> writes:
torhu Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



 Hello, Dee Girl :)
 
 I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
 it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
 and powerful, once you get to know it.
 
 Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
 libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
 Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
 used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
 most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
 with at the moment.
 
 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.



Many thank yous to everybody who answered. I think I will try D2 with Phobos, I
can not stay away from the cool features of D2. Thank you all, Dee Girl
May 09 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
torhu wrote:

 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. 
 I'll need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with 
 Phobos.
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the 
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I 
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. 
 Thank you, Dee Girl



 Hello, Dee Girl :)
 
 I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
 it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
 and powerful, once you get to know it.
 
 Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
 libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
 Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
 used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
 most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
 with at the moment.
 
 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.



Most Phobos libraries run under Tangobos just fine. Actually, I've only 
tried it with DMDScript, which _didn't_, but supposedly they do ;-P.
May 10 2008
parent reply Fawzi Mohamed <fmohamed mac.com> writes:
On 2008-05-10 10:08:10 +0200, Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> said:


 torhu wrote:

 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll 
 need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos.
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the 
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I 
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. 
 Thank you, Dee Girl



 Hello, Dee Girl :)
 
 I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
 it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
 and powerful, once you get to know it.
 
 Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
 libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
 Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
 used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
 most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
 with at the moment.
 
 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.



 Most Phobos libraries run under Tangobos just fine. Actually, I've only 
 tried it with DMDScript, which _didn't_, but supposedly they do ;-P.



torhu, care to file a ticket?
that way it might get fixed.
Looking at the other tickets I know that it might seem that people do 
not look much at it (I think tangobos was not really much maintained, 
but just whoever needed it fixed what it needed), but I recently merged 
gdc phobos into it, and if feasible I will try to fix it.

thanks
Fawzi
May 10 2008
next sibling parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Fawzi Mohamed wrote:

 On 2008-05-10 10:08:10 +0200, Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> 
 said:
 

 torhu wrote:

 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. 
 I'll need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with 
 Phobos.
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and 
 the programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what 
 combination I should choose? I want to first write a few programs 
 for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



 Hello, Dee Girl :)

 I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
 it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
 and powerful, once you get to know it.

 Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
 libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
 Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
 used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
 most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
 with at the moment.

 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work 
 there.



 Most Phobos libraries run under Tangobos just fine. Actually, I've 
 only tried it with DMDScript, which _didn't_, but supposedly they do ;-P.






There is a requirement with Tangobos that _something_ from std.* be 
imported.  So it is not the case that you can always compile 
Phobos-based source out of the box.  Sometimes you need to stick a

  version(Tango) import std.compat;

at the top of a file.  This is because Tango's built-in "object" module 
   lacks some of the definitions that are in that of Phobos, like 
aliases for string,dstring,wstring.

--bb
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent lurker <lurker lurker.com> writes:
i am working with/for dicom and a database, whose odbc i adopted from
"http://www.britseyeview.com/D" and i am all happy with that. walter fixes bugs
fast, brings new additions etc. (i am checking every day and hope to find new
goodies). i also use dfl, freeimage, dcollections... and the community helps a
deal for which i am very greatful.
I also find some bugs and try to work around them - BUT i think it is wrong to
reduce everything to tango or phobos, it seems to have become be a death or
live discussion. I like the small approach, do not (unfortunately) work with
linux or macintosh and grab all the stuff that is around to port it to D2.
I do not have the the requirement to to be the fasted racer of them all - i
don’t even check. Is it important to be a couple milliseconds faster than
everybody else??? No it is usability and reliability! For now that works fine
for me.
I wished tango and phobos would merge - not via tangophobos, since it can be a
good idea to split people with a library for the bad of a language. A new book
might be written than too - and i hope somebody will erase bob’s message with
the link.

shoot - english is so hard, please bear with me as a D2 fan and a beginning
programmer.


Fawzi Mohamed Wrote:


 On 2008-05-10 10:08:10 +0200, Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> said:
 

 torhu wrote:

 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll 
 need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos.
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the 
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I 
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. 
 Thank you, Dee Girl



 Hello, Dee Girl :)
 
 I'd probably go with Phobos while you're learning the language, I found
 it easier to get the hang of than Tango.  While Tango is more flexible
 and powerful, once you get to know it.
 
 Chosing between D1/D2 and tango/phobos often comes down to which
 libraries you need for your app.  Like if you want to use the new DWT,
 Tango and D1 is your only option.    Some third-party libraries can be
 used with both tango and phobos, some support just one.  And I think
 most libraries only support D1, so D2 is more for just playing around
 with at the moment.
 
 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.



 Most Phobos libraries run under Tangobos just fine. Actually, I've only 
 tried it with DMDScript, which _didn't_, but supposedly they do ;-P.



 torhu, care to file a ticket?
 that way it might get fixed.
 Looking at the other tickets I know that it might seem that people do 
 not look much at it (I think tangobos was not really much maintained, 
 but just whoever needed it fixed what it needed), but I recently merged 
 gdc phobos into it, and if feasible I will try to fix it.
 
 thanks
 Fawzi
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
torhu wrote:

 
 I recommend codepad.org, it's a great way of trying out stuff.  It's a
 pastebin that will actually compile and run your code, displaying the
 output.  Both tango and phobos (through the tangobos library) work there.



Hey, that's quite a nice site, quite interesting for people new to the 
languages they support.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Developer, MSc. in CS/E graduate
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 25 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 17:10:54 -0400, Dee Girl wrote:


 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll
 need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos.
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use.
 Thank you, Dee Girl



I will suggest D1 + Tango. Reason for D1 is that D2 is in development, 
you won't find many programs written in it or much help surrounding it. 
Tango because that is what I have chosen. And the best way I can describe 
what it is like working either library is: Phobos is like writing in C 
but much nicer and cleaner, Tango is like writing in C++ but much nicer 
and cleaner.

I would suggest learning it all eventually but start with just one.
May 09 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



You don't have to decide right away.  There's a "Tango with Tangobos" 
distribution available from the Tango website which has both.  Tangobos 
being a port of Phobos to the Tango runtime.  Assuming you're using DMD, 
go to this link:

http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/DmdDownloads

And get the current release "bundled with Tangobos."


Sean
May 10 2008
parent reply lurker <lurker lurker.com> writes:
i like D2 and am very content with it. sure some small bugs, but that's ok - it
got super features too.
i use phobos and like that too, it is so neatly minimalistic. i did not have
the wish to use any feature of tango yet - seems like everybody wants to push
it.
so go with D2 and phobos, you'll like it.

Sean Kelly Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



 You don't have to decide right away.  There's a "Tango with Tangobos" 
 distribution available from the Tango website which has both.  Tangobos 
 being a port of Phobos to the Tango runtime.  Assuming you're using DMD, 
 go to this link:
 
 http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/DmdDownloads
 
 And get the current release "bundled with Tangobos."
 
 
 Sean
May 10 2008
parent Fawzi Mohamed <fmohamed mac.com> writes:
I use D1.0 dsss and tango + tangobos, and I am happy with it.
I found some bugs both phobos and tango (and tangobos, but there it is 
also my fault as I did the port to gdc :).
Anyway on tango there was a quick feedback, the bugs got fixed (or are 
on they way, and I have a workaround).
Also tango seems faster and with more functionality, and is well 
documented, so I stick with tango.

I find D 2.0 very interesting and nice and I want to play with it, but 
I have forced myself to first finish something serious with D, before 
loosing an unknown amount of time playing with D 2.0.

I should say that the platforms I care about are Macintosh and Linux 
x86_64, on which dmd does not work, so when I say phobos I mean gdc 
phobos, and likewise the 2.0 in gdc is slightly older than dmd's, so 
your mileage might vary.

Fawzi

On 2008-05-10 18:01:33 +0200, lurker <lurker lurker.com> said:


 i like D2 and am very content with it. sure some small bugs, but that's 
 ok - it got super features too.
 i use phobos and like that too, it is so neatly minimalistic. i did not 
 have the wish to use any feature of tango yet - seems like everybody 
 wants to push it.
 so go with D2 and phobos, you'll like it.
 
 Sean Kelly Wrote:
 

 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll 
 need to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos.
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the 
 programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I 
 should choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. 
 Thank you, Dee Girl



 You don't have to decide right away.  There's a "Tango with Tangobos"
 distribution available from the Tango website which has both.  Tangobos
 being a port of Phobos to the Tango runtime.  Assuming you're using DMD,
 go to this link:
 
 http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/DmdDownloads
 
 And get the current release "bundled with Tangobos."
 
 
 Sean
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Clay Smith <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



I'd use D 1.0 + Tango, unless you're don't mind writing standard library 
type code yourself.
May 11 2008
parent Dee Girl <deegirl noreply.com> writes:
Clay Smith Wrote:


 Dee Girl wrote:

 I read the online documentation of D and decided to give it a try. I'll need
to choose one of D1 with Phobos, D1 with Tango, or D2 with Phobos. 
 
 The minimalist in me wants Phobos, the app writer wants Tango, and the
programming language lover wants D2. Any advice on what combination I should
choose? I want to first write a few programs for my own use. Thank you, Dee Girl



 I'd use D 1.0 + Tango, unless you're don't mind writing standard library 
 type code yourself.



Thank you for your advice! But I am already in love with D2. It is buzzword
compilant ahem ^_^ Thank you, Dee Girl
May 12 2008