www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - GuitarHero/RockBand fans... side project anyone?

reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a113309641c29d604ed54037a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago. Recently,
it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and great
rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument skills too.

The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the
GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It's
annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally 10
or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's if you want
to play the songs you like.

I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and
I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when
they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
hibernation.

I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
code, in D).
Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
more fun to work in a small team.

It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
animation, UI and presentation.

I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project
lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that sort of
software before.

It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

--001a113309641c29d604ed54037a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefu=
lly admit that I was tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10=
 years ago. Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<div><br></div><di=
v>
I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and gre=
at rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument skills=
 too.</div><div><br></div><div>The problem is though, that Neversoft and Ha=
rmonix completely fucked up the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, f=
ragmented tracklists. It&#39;s annoying that all the songs you want to play=
 are spread across literally 10 or so different games, and you need to cons=
tantly change disc&#39;s if you want to play the songs you like.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone s=
ince GH2 came out. I started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song=
 editor for PS2, and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were concei=
ved, but then when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it =
went into hibernation.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start=
 a new one, with clean code, in D).</div><div>Are there any music game nerd=
s hanging around here who would be interested in joining a side project lik=
e this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and much more fun to work in a smal=
l team.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, aud=
io processing, super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications p=
rocessing, animation, UI and presentation.</div><div><br></div><div>I have =
done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project lead of=
 people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that sort of softwar=
e before.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly l=
arge scale and performance intensive D project, which I like to do from tim=
e to time.</div></div>

--001a113309641c29d604ed54037a--
Dec 12 2013
next sibling parent "Rikki Cattermole" <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago. Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, 
 and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument 
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across 
 literally 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's 
 if you want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but 
 then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio 
 processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications 
 processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort 
 of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that 
 sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large 
 scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time 
 to time.

I would be happy to help with the gui side of thing just to get DOOGLE more inline with what is required from it. Assuming DOOGLE is ok for it. It is designed to work on top of games so it is perfect for this type of thing I'm just worried of its state and being ready.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Meta" <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago. Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

You're 6 years behind the curve =). My brother got Guitar hero 2 for Christmas one year and I was instantly hooked. Guitar Hero 3 still remains my most played game besides maybe Civilization IV.
 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across 
 literally 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's 
 if you want
 to play the songs you like.

Did they ever... It's really Activision's fault for running Guitar Hero into the ground. I remember them releasing a statement around 2009 saying that they planned to release 6 new Guitar Hero games within that year alone. It was then that I knew it was over.
 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but 
 then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

Have you heard of Frets on Fire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frets_on_Fire I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn't really have that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.
 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

I wish I had the time.
Dec 12 2013
parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 12/12/2013 12:40, Manu wrote:
 I was involved in a similar project called StepMania back when, which
 solved the same problem with Dance Dance Revolution. Guitar Hero/Rock
 Band needs the same treatment.

You worked on StepMania? Nice! I used that program (game?) a lot when playing DDR, back in the time where I was living in a place with a DDR mat. It's even more fun when you can get songs and tracks you like in DDR, which you cant with arcade machines, one is stuck with their selection..
Feb 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e01177567504e6804ed55537e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 12 December 2013 21:14, Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally
 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's if you
 want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

I would be happy to help with the gui side of thing just to get DOOGLE more inline with what is required from it. Assuming DOOGLE is ok for it. It is designed to work on top of games so it is perfect for this type of thing I'm just worried of its state and being ready.

It would be a good test for any UI framework. Hooking it up to project-specific input api, and producing project specific outputs (in the way of rendering backend). The biggest challenge for any UI system though, is tooling. You can't be expected to lay out rich and natural UI's by typing magic numbers in text files... are there's open-source tools you use for construction and layout? --089e01177567504e6804ed55537e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 December 2013 21:14, Rikki Cattermole <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma= ilto:alphaglosined gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alphaglosined gmail.com</a>= &gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On T= hursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago. Recently,= <br> it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and gre= at<br> rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument skills to= o.<br> <br> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the= <br> GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It&#39;s<b= r> annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally 10= <br> or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc&#39;s if you = want<br> to play the songs you like.<br> <br> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and<= br> I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when<br=

hibernation.<br> <br> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with cle= an<br> code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested<= br> in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and mu= ch<br> more fun to work in a small team.<br> <br> It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,<br> super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,<br> animation, UI and presentation.<br> <br> I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project<= br> lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that sort of<= br> software before.<br> <br> It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and<br> performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div> I would be happy to help with the gui side of thing just to get DOOGLE more= inline with what is required from it. Assuming DOOGLE is ok for it.<br> It is designed to work on top of games so it is perfect for this type of th= ing I&#39;m just worried of its state and being ready.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It would be a good = test for any UI framework. Hooking it up to project-specific input api, and= producing project specific outputs (in the way of rendering backend).</div=

is tooling. You can&#39;t be expected to lay out rich and natural UI&#39;s = by typing magic numbers in text files... are there&#39;s open-source tools = you use for construction and layout?</div> </div> --089e01177567504e6804ed55537e--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Rikki Cattermole" <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 12:17:22 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 12 December 2013 21:14, Rikki Cattermole 
 <alphaglosined gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago.
 Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party 
 games, and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument 
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up
 the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread 
 across literally
 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change 
 disc's if you
 want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, 
 but then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new 
 one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would 
 be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio 
 processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications 
 processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a 
 sort of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write 
 that sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large 
 scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time 
 to time.

I would be happy to help with the gui side of thing just to get DOOGLE more inline with what is required from it. Assuming DOOGLE is ok for it. It is designed to work on top of games so it is perfect for this type of thing I'm just worried of its state and being ready.

It would be a good test for any UI framework. Hooking it up to project-specific input api, and producing project specific outputs (in the way of rendering backend). The biggest challenge for any UI system though, is tooling. You can't be expected to lay out rich and natural UI's by typing magic numbers in text files... are there's open-source tools you use for construction and layout?

Currently its all hard coded. At some point I want to build a WYSIWYG editor for it. However there is a lot of infrastructure that would go into that unfortunately so not really short term goal. Its unfortunately really does need I need to do x for reason y please provide it type of thing. You can only do so much theoretical planning of the library without getting bored.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On 12/12/2013 7:43 PM, Manu wrote:
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that
 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

I've never played any of those guitar games, but I do play guitar. And this project sounds intriguing. Time management is always a problem for me, but I could be motivated to put a few hours a week into something like this in the New Year.
Dec 12 2013
next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On 12/12/2013 9:50 PM, Manu wrote:

 What's your key skillset?

I've been making dinky little 2D games for years. So I've got what's required for that much down pretty well (simple AI, networking, 2D graphics, basic audio). I've also dabbled with 3D, I've never done anything complex there beyond simple terrain rendering, though.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s Andrei
Dec 13 2013
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/13 3:06 PM, Meta wrote:
 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 21:44:00 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

 Andrei

Ha, not bad. How long ago was this?

2009. Andrei
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

Hehe, nice. Although I can basically only hear the drums. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/13 4:43 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

Hehe, nice. Although I can basically only hear the drums.

Yah, it's on my wife's cell phone... it was an adaptation of Jimi Hendrix's "Fire". It's a good piece for the drums. http://ultimateclassicrock.com/jimi-hendrix-fire-song-premiere/ Andrei
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 01:37, Marco Leise wrote:

 Take Jacob Carlborg for example. I thought he is a dead
 serious guy who writes a serialization library and would not
 be drumming on his desk till the paint is gone, because he's
 just too serious to be moved by music. Keep telling stories
 guys!

Haha, far from. If that were the case I would probably be done by now :). I'm listening to music all the time. Unfortunately they don't like that at work, neither the drumming on the desk :( -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 11:26, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 Well we need at least two if we want to do a King Crimson cover.  ;)

It's always fun with more than one drum kit on the stage. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 11:28, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 And as well as a drum kit, we could have people on specific percussive
 instruments - djembe, anyone?  :)

I always liked the guy playing percussion in the back of many concerts with Eric Clapton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICpxgxThG7s - 2:50, 5:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6R-ZOuMjY - 5:32 -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 15:07, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:

 Ray Cooper.  Who has played with just about everybody, on everything ...
 :-)

Yeah, I looked him up at Wikipedia. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 13/12/2013 21:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s Andrei

Daaaammn! Seriously impressed, awesome stuff! :)
Feb 10 2014
prev sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 13/12/13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

How many drummers is the DConf band going to have? :-D
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0111be76b52c7604ed55a624
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 12 December 2013 21:37, Meta <jared771 gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

You're 6 years behind the curve =). My brother got Guitar hero 2 for Christmas one year and I was instantly hooked. Guitar Hero 3 still remains my most played game besides maybe Civilization IV.

I wouldn't say I'm 6 years behind... I just haven't gotten over it yet. I'm like that. I still break out my Amiga from time to time when I feel nostalgic (I was stuck on that wagon waaaaay too long aswell). I was on to Guitar Hero from day one. I imported it from the US shortly after launch, so I had it 6 months before everyone else in Australia (we always get stuff a year late!). During GH1, 2, 3 (world tour), there was a big custom-song community, with loads of torrents of the bootleg PS2 game, re-fitted with custom songs floating around on the internets. I was involved in the birth of the GH custom song movement, initially reverse engineering the PS2 song formats so I could import the songs off the PS2 disc's into my custom engine (I wanted to play on other platforms initially). Others got involved, people started working on tools. My GH engine transformed into an editor which was the go-to tool for creating custom guitar hero songs, and I even heard word that some preferred it to the in-house tools at Harmonix and Neversoft, apparently they had staff who preferred to use my editor at work ;) I met with some of the guys at GDC and asked them where my credit was at the end of the game... and maybe a cheque would be nice (that game was worth billions!). They become uncomfortable ;) The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally
 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's if you
 want
 to play the songs you like.

Did they ever... It's really Activision's fault for running Guitar Hero into the ground. I remember them releasing a statement around 2009 saying that they planned to release 6 new Guitar Hero games within that year alone. It was then that I knew it was over.

Indeed. So the first goal of my resurrected project, is to collate the entire back-catalog into one unified experience. I was involved in a similar project called StepMania back when, which solved the same problem with Dance Dance Revolution. Guitar Hero/Rock Band needs the same treatment. It also needs a proper editor and a webstore allowing any indy musicians to create songs and sell them for a dollar each. Nothing gets you into a bands songs more than physically playing them over and over again with friends. I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

Have you heard of Frets on Fire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Frets_on_Fire I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn't really have that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.

Yes, it's fucking terrible. It's also written in Java, which might partly explain the first bit... Fortunately, I'm a professional, and I'm certain I can accurately reproduce the feel of the proper games. My editor already does. It just needs to be fleshed out with lots of presentation work. I also expect it to run on my consoles. Obviously console ports are important! :) I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

I wish I had the time.

I don't really have time either, but some things just have to be done! :) --089e0111be76b52c7604ed55a624 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 December 2013 21:37, Meta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jared77= 1 gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jared771 gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote= :<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago. Recently,= <br> it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> You&#39;re 6 years behind the curve =3D). My brother got Guitar hero 2 for = Christmas one year and I was instantly hooked. Guitar Hero 3 still remains = my most played game besides maybe Civilization IV.</blockquote><div><br> </div><div>I wouldn&#39;t say I&#39;m 6 years behind... I just haven&#39;t = gotten over it yet. I&#39;m like that.</div><div>I still break out my Amiga= from time to time when I feel nostalgic (I was stuck on that wagon waaaaay= too long aswell).</div> <div><br></div><div>I was on to Guitar Hero from day one. I imported it fro= m the US shortly after launch, so I had it 6 months before everyone else in= Australia (we always get stuff a year late!).</div><div>During GH1, 2, 3 (= world tour), there was a big custom-song community, with loads of torrents = of the=C2=A0bootleg=C2=A0PS2 game, re-fitted with custom songs floating aro= und on the internets.</div> <div>I was involved in the birth of the GH custom song movement, initially = reverse engineering the PS2 song formats so I could import the songs off th= e PS2 disc&#39;s into my custom engine (I wanted to play on other platforms= initially).</div> <div>Others got involved, people started working on tools. My GH engine tra= nsformed into an editor which was the go-to tool for creating custom guitar= hero songs, and I even heard word that some preferred it to the in-house t= ools at Harmonix and Neversoft, apparently they had staff who preferred to = use my editor at work ;)</div> <div>I met with some of the guys at GDC and asked them where my credit was = at the end of the game... and maybe a cheque would be nice (that game was w= orth billions!). They become uncomfortable ;)</div><div><br></div><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-widt= h:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-le= ft:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the= <br> GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It&#39;s<b= r> annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally 10= <br> or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc&#39;s if you = want<br> to play the songs you like.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Did they ever... It&#39;s really Activision&#39;s fault for running Guitar = Hero into the ground. I remember them releasing a statement around 2009 say= ing that they planned to release 6 new Guitar Hero games within that year a= lone. It was then that I knew it was over.</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>Indeed. So the first goal of my resurrected project, is= to collate the entire back-catalog into one unified experience.</div><div>= <br></div><div>I was involved in a similar project called StepMania back wh= en, which solved the same problem with Dance Dance Revolution. Guitar Hero/= Rock Band needs the same treatment.</div> <div>It also needs a proper editor and a webstore allowing any indy musicia= ns to create songs and sell them for a dollar each. Nothing gets you into a= bands songs more than physically playing them over and over again with fri= ends.</div> <div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma= rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,= 204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and<= br> I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when<br=

hibernation.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Have you heard of Frets on Fire? <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr= ets_on_Fire" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>Frets_on= _Fire</a><br> I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn&#39;t really h= ave that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, it&= #39;s fucking terrible. It&#39;s also written in Java, which might partly e= xplain the first bit...</div> <div>Fortunately, I&#39;m a professional, and I&#39;m certain I can accurat= ely reproduce the feel of the proper games. My editor already does. It just= needs to be fleshed out with lots of presentation work.</div><div>I also e= xpect it to run on my consoles. Obviously console ports are important! :)</= div> <div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma= rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,= 204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with cle= an<br> code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested<= br> in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and mu= ch<br> more fun to work in a small team.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I wish I had the time.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I don&#39;t really = have time either, but some things just have to be done! :)</div></div> --089e0111be76b52c7604ed55a624--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e01182c7e3a737904ed55cb69
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 12 December 2013 22:35, Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> wrote:

 On 12/12/2013 7:43 PM, Manu wrote:

 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that
 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

I've never played any of those guitar games, but I do play guitar. And this project sounds intriguing. Time management is always a problem for me, but I could be motivated to put a few hours a week into something like this in the New Year.

Yeah, it's a problem for me too. That's the main reason I post for interest from others. If there's team involvement, I feel a greater sense of enthusiasm and responsibility, and it becomes a lot harder to ignore :) What's your key skillset? Mmm, I'm a guitar player too, and have decent rhythm, but never really played drums. Guitar Hero/Rock Band alone took me from not being able to play drums, to being able to physically play drums reasonably well. I knew I reached a milestone when I was playing Neil Peart songs without trouble! :P Actually, these games are much better for drums than guitar, since the drums on hardest difficulty is an accurate representation of the recording artist's skills, whereas the little plastic guitars are only good for hand-eye coordination and rhythmic skill. --089e01182c7e3a737904ed55cb69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 December 2013 22:35, Mike Parker <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= aldacron gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">aldacron gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On 12/12/2013 7:43 PM, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be<br> interested in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more<br> motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,<br> super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,<br> animation, UI and presentation.<br> <br> I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of<br> project lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that<= br> sort of software before.<br> <br> It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and<br> performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> I&#39;ve never played any of those guitar games, but I do play guitar. And = this project sounds intriguing. Time management is always a problem for me,= but I could be motivated to put a few hours a week into something like thi= s in the New Year.<br> </blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D= "gmail_extra">Yeah, it&#39;s a problem for me too. That&#39;s the main reas= on I post for interest from others. If there&#39;s team involvement, I feel= a greater sense of enthusiasm and responsibility, and it becomes a lot har= der to ignore :)</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">What&#39;s your key skillset?</div><div class=3D= "gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Mmm, I&#39;m a guitar pl= ayer too, and have decent rhythm, but never really played drums. Guitar Her= o/Rock Band alone took me from not being able to play drums, to being able = to physically play drums reasonably well.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I knew I reached a milestone when I was playing = Neil Peart songs without trouble! :P<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Ac= tually, these games are much better for drums than guitar, since the drums = on hardest difficulty is an accurate representation of the recording artist= &#39;s skills, whereas the little plastic guitars are only good for hand-ey= e coordination and rhythmic skill.</div> </div> --089e01182c7e3a737904ed55cb69--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Francesco Cattoglio" <francesco.cattoglio gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

I absolutely agree, small teams keep you motivated and discussing ideas makes the work so much faster. I can tell you I am interested. I have been thinking about music-based games for quite a long time, and even took part of the team that produced a music-based game in a Videogame Design and Programming class in University. Unfortunately the group leader was... well... a bad leader in my opinion, and the tool used was Unity. This said, if you plan on starting your code from scratch, you might actually want to do something different from Guitar Hero. EG: Have you ever played Synaesthete? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp0Gasls0Sg I find it both amazing and ADDICTING AS HELL, every time I listen to the songs I feel like playing it over and over and over again.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 12:57:42 UTC, Manu wrote:
 the
 drums on hardest difficulty is an accurate representation of 
 the recording
 artist's skills.

Well apart from dynamic control* and any real sense of groove/feel. There a lot more to being a drummer than just hitting the drums like a metronome with arms. Nevertheless, it's a lot more representative than the guitars and it does teach some of the necessary skills. *or did that get included later in the franchise?
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Arjan" <arjan ask.me.to> writes:
 Have you heard of Frets on Fire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
 Frets_on_Fire
 I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn't 
 really have
 that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.

Yes, it's fucking terrible. It's also written in Java, which might partly explain the first bit...

I'm pretty sure it has been written in python (to prove one could write games using python), also there is FoFix a (better?) clone also python. My kids do play FoFix from time to time. But nothing beats minecraft.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Francesco Cattoglio" <francesco.cattoglio gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 14:38:54 UTC, Arjan wrote:
 My kids do play FoFix from time to time. But nothing beats 
 minecraft.

Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--047d7b4725a8da565b04ed5770e9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 00:19, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 12:57:42 UTC, Manu wrote:

 the
 drums on hardest difficulty is an accurate representation of the recording
 artist's skills.

Well apart from dynamic control* and any real sense of groove/feel. There a lot more to being a drummer than just hitting the drums like a metronome with arms. Nevertheless, it's a lot more representative than the guitars and it does teach some of the necessary skills. *or did that get included later in the franchise?

Sure. But you can still work on those things while playing the game, those aspects of your performance just won't be accurately recorded or scored. My drums (from 'band hero', typically considered the best ones they ever made) do report impact sensitivity, although it's not used by the game for some reason. For me, I never played drums, and there's a lot of motor skills required to tightly synchronise all those limbs that are perfectly applicable skills I developed while playing those games. I was so sloppy synchronising hands and feet at first, and my left hand was kinda gump, would never keep up with my right hand in rolls, and when i tried to synchronise fast double kicks with hand rolls... keeping all those motions tight is stuff I wouldn't have if I didn't play those games. --047d7b4725a8da565b04ed5770e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 00:19, John Colvin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmai= l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thursday, 12 December 2= 013 at 12:57:42 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> the<br> drums on hardest difficulty is an accurate representation of the recording<= br></div> artist&#39;s skills.<br> </blockquote> <br> Well apart from dynamic control* and any real sense of groove/feel. There a= lot more to being a drummer than just hitting the drums like a metronome w= ith arms.<br> Nevertheless, it&#39;s a lot more representative than the guitars and it do= es teach some of the necessary skills.<br> <br> *or did that get included later in the franchise?<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Sure. But you can s= till work on those things while playing the game, those aspects of your per= formance just won&#39;t be accurately recorded or scored.</div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"> My drums (from &#39;band hero&#39;, typically considered the best ones they= ever made) do report impact sensitivity, although it&#39;s not used by the= game for some reason.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"> For me, I never played drums, and there&#39;s a lot of motor skills require= d to tightly synchronise all those limbs that are perfectly applicable skil= ls I developed while playing those games.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"> I was so sloppy synchronising hands and feet at first, and my left hand was= kinda gump, would never keep up with my right hand in rolls, and when i tr= ied to synchronise fast double kicks with hand rolls... keeping all those m= otions tight is stuff I wouldn&#39;t have if I didn&#39;t play those games.= </div> </div> --047d7b4725a8da565b04ed5770e9--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11333a4e5ef3d504ed577cb9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 00:38, Arjan <arjan ask.me.to> wrote:

 Have you heard of Frets on Fire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
 Frets_on_Fire
 I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn't really
 have
 that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.

Yes, it's fucking terrible. It's also written in Java, which might partly explain the first bit...

I'm pretty sure it has been written in python (to prove one could write games using python), also there is FoFix a (better?) clone also python. My kids do play FoFix from time to time. But nothing beats minecraft.

Oh yeah, you're probably right. I just remembered that it wasn't written in a real language ;) It doesn't feel very tight, and the synchronisation window is super wide. I suspect this is because the libraries they use aren't really meant for low-latency real-time use, and they have no access to the hardware/drivers directly, so they have to allow for a huge margin of error. --001a11333a4e5ef3d504ed577cb9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 00:38, Arjan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:arjan = ask.me.to" target=3D"_blank">arjan ask.me.to</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= c solid;padding-left:1ex"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:= 1ex"> Have you heard of Frets on Fire? <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/" = target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/</a><br> Frets_on_Fire<br> I remember trying this out several years ago, though it didn&#39;t really h= ave<br> that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.<br> </blockquote> <br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> Yes, it&#39;s fucking terrible. It&#39;s also written in Java, which might = partly<br> explain the first bit...<br> </div></blockquote> <br> I&#39;m pretty sure it has been written in python (to prove one could write= games using python), also there is FoFix a (better?) clone also python.<br=

My kids do play FoFix from time to time. But nothing beats minecraft.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Oh yeah, you&#39;re= probably right. I just remembered that it wasn&#39;t written in a real lan= guage ;)</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It doesn&#39;t feel very tight, an= d the synchronisation window is super wide. I suspect this is because the l= ibraries they use aren&#39;t really meant for low-latency real-time use, an= d they have no access to the hardware/drivers directly, so they have to all= ow for a huge margin of error.</div> </div> --001a11333a4e5ef3d504ed577cb9--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e015388f6b4897804ed5792bb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 00:18, Francesco Cattoglio <
francesco.cattoglio gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

I absolutely agree, small teams keep you motivated and discussing ideas makes the work so much faster. I can tell you I am interested. I have been thinking about music-based games for quite a long time, and even took part of the team that produced a music-based game in a Videogame Design and Programming class in University. Unfortunately the group leader was... well... a bad leader in my opinion, and the tool used was Unity. This said, if you plan on starting your code from scratch, you might actually want to do something different from Guitar Hero. EG: Have you ever played Synaesthete? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp0Gasls0Sg I find it both amazing and ADDICTING AS HELL, every time I listen to the songs I feel like playing it over and over and over again.

It looks like Beatmania meets Geometry Wars meets... something that I can't quite recall what it is. It still has the element of a timed sequences against a music track, so that maps perfectly. The presentation of that game is a project in itself, but I don't see why such an extensible system shouldn't be supported. For me, the entire point is to make a GH/RB engine. I want to play those games, but I'm sick of swapping disc's all the time, and I also want to open it up to a proper custom song community. I like to make projects like that as extensible and customisable as possible. You could add a Synaesthete plugin for instance, or probably more universally, add support for any other instruments or presentation modes people like. Bring back dance pad mode! ;) The core of the work is an extensible frontend, and a good input recognition system combined with tight synchronisation. The frontend, UI, presentation, etc is probably 80% of the work. I can probably knock the GAME part together in a weekend. It needs a good extensible theme system where the front-end experience can be scripted to mimic existing games, or evolved to do new and interesting things that people can tinker with. StepMania did this well. There were community skins for the official Dance Dance Revolution games, but the default one extended the game in ways Konami never did. People also added other game modes/styles on top of it which made it an interesting game in its own right, even though it stated as an engine/emulator for an existing game. I think the starting point is important though to gain initial users/contributors, who all agree on initial goals, ie, to accurately emulate the GH/RB experience. --089e015388f6b4897804ed5792bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 00:18, Francesco Cattoglio <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= "mailto:francesco.cattoglio gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">francesco.cattogli= o gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:2= 4 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b= order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s= olid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with cle= an<br> code, in D).<br></div><div class=3D"im"> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested<= br> in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and mu= ch<br> more fun to work in a small team.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> I absolutely agree, small teams keep you motivated and discussing ideas mak= es the work so much faster.<br> I can tell you I am interested. I have been thinking about music-based game= s for quite a long time, and even took part of the team that produced a mus= ic-based game in a Videogame Design and Programming class in University. Un= fortunately the group leader was... well... a bad leader in my opinion, and= the tool used was Unity.<br> <br> This said, if you plan on starting your code from scratch, you might actual= ly want to do something different from Guitar Hero. EG: Have you ever playe= d Synaesthete? <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLp0Gasls0Sg" ta= rget=3D"_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<u></u>v=3DLp0Gasls0Sg</a><br=

<br> I find it both amazing and ADDICTING AS HELL, every time I listen to the so= ngs I feel like playing it over and over and over again.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It looks like Beatm= ania meets Geometry Wars meets... something that I can&#39;t quite recall w= hat it is.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It still has the element of a ti= med sequences against a music track, so that maps perfectly. The presentati= on of that game is a project in itself, but I don&#39;t see why such an ext= ensible system shouldn&#39;t be supported.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">For me, the= entire point is to make a GH/RB engine. I want to play those games, but I&= #39;m sick of swapping disc&#39;s all the time, and I also want to open it = up to a proper custom song community.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I like to make projects like that as extensible = and customisable as possible. You could add a Synaesthete plugin for instan= ce, or probably more universally, add support for any other instruments or = presentation modes people like. Bring back dance pad mode! ;)</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">The core of the work is an extensible frontend, = and a good input recognition system combined with tight synchronisation.</d= iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The fron= tend, UI, presentation, etc is probably 80% of the work. I can probably kno= ck the GAME part together in a weekend.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">It needs a good extensible theme system where th= e front-end experience can be scripted to mimic existing games, or evolved = to do new and interesting things that people can tinker with.</div><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_extra"> StepMania did this well. There were community skins for the official Dance = Dance Revolution games, but the default one extended the game in ways Konam= i never did. People also added other game modes/styles on top of it which m= ade it an interesting game in its own right, even though it stated as an en= gine/emulator for an existing game.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I think the starting point is important though t= o gain initial users/contributors, who all agree on initial goals, ie, to a= ccurately emulate the GH/RB experience.</div></div> --089e015388f6b4897804ed5792bb--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Arjan" <arjan ask.me.to> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 14:52:10 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 00:38, Arjan <arjan ask.me.to> wrote:

 Have you heard of Frets on Fire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
 Frets_on_Fire
 I remember trying this out several years ago, though it 
 didn't really
 have
 that smoothe Guitar Hero feel.

Yes, it's fucking terrible. It's also written in Java, which might partly explain the first bit...

I'm pretty sure it has been written in python (to prove one could write games using python), also there is FoFix a (better?) clone also python. My kids do play FoFix from time to time. But nothing beats minecraft.

Oh yeah, you're probably right. I just remembered that it wasn't written in a real language ;) It doesn't feel very tight, and the synchronisation window is super wide. I suspect this is because the libraries they use aren't really meant for low-latency real-time use, and they have no access to the hardware/drivers directly, so they have to allow for a huge margin of error.

I have no idea what is required for a game like that, but I've been on a project where python is used in machine control (wafer handling) at control frequencies / sampling rates up to 100Hz. Although 100Hz was not achieved easily. Indeed no direct access to hw/drivers from python it usually goes through c-wrappers.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

I wouldn't agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.
 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,
 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then
 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

Cool idea. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 12 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-12 17:16, Manu wrote:

 Sounds like your system was calibrated poorly, or there is latency in
 your AV setup, or your TV/stereo is cheap. There's lots of sources of
 latency that can affect those games. You just have to make sure to
 eliminate them before you can play it properly.
 I can easily play those games without looking at the screen at all. But
 I did need to do some fiddling to get it properly synchronised. I felt
 about 30-40ms latency when I first switched to the 360 versions.
 The old PS2 games were much better since they had no digital outputs,
 there's no buffering anywhere along the chain. Still depends on your TV
 displaying the signal it receives immediately though.

Most likely a calibration issue. I don't own Guitar Hero myself so I've never tired to calibrate it. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0160b3dc8ec9cd04ed58a965
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 01:47, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

I wouldn't agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

Sounds like your system was calibrated poorly, or there is latency in your AV setup, or your TV/stereo is cheap. There's lots of sources of latency that can affect those games. You just have to make sure to eliminate them before you can play it properly. I can easily play those games without looking at the screen at all. But I did need to do some fiddling to get it properly synchronised. I felt about 30-40ms latency when I first switched to the 360 versions. The old PS2 games were much better since they had no digital outputs, there's no buffering anywhere along the chain. Still depends on your TV displaying the signal it receives immediately though. The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,
 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then
 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

Cool idea. -- /Jacob Carlborg

--089e0160b3dc8ec9cd04ed58a965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 01:47, Jacob Carlborg <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail= to:doob me.com" target=3D"_blank">doob me.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c= cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.<br> Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and<br> great rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument<br> skills too.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> I wouldn&#39;t agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues = with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn&#39= ;t work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.<br></blockquot= e> <div><br></div><div>Sounds like your system was calibrated poorly, or there= is latency in your AV setup, or your TV/stereo is cheap. There&#39;s lots = of sources of latency that can affect those games. You just have to make su= re to eliminate them before you can play it properly.</div> <div>I can easily play those games without looking at the screen at all. Bu= t I did need to do some fiddling to get it properly synchronised. I felt ab= out 30-40ms latency when I first switched to the 360 versions.</div><div> The old PS2 games were much better since they had no digital outputs, there= &#39;s no buffering anywhere along the chain. Still depends on your TV disp= laying the signal it receives immediately though.</div><div><br></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= c solid;padding-left:1ex"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up<br> the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.<br> It&#39;s annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across<br> literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change<br> disc&#39;s if you want to play the songs you like.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,<br> and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then<br> when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into<br> hibernation.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with<br> clean code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be<br> interested in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more<br> motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> Cool idea.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> <br> -- <br> /Jacob Carlborg<br> </font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div> --089e0160b3dc8ec9cd04ed58a965--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party 
 games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real 
 instrument
 skills too.

I wouldn't agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

As a lifelong musician this annoyed the hell out of me. The whole experience ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is critical.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c30ce24a2a7004ed595620
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 02:28, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

I wouldn't agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

As a lifelong musician this annoyed the hell out of me. The whole experience ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is critical.

It is quite sad how few people seem to know how, or make the effort to setup their system properly, or know what the typical sources of latency are... or even that there's such a thing as latency in the first place. It's possible to make it near-perfect... but when I go to other peoples houses and try to play, it never is. And then I start fiddling with their AV system for an hour while everyone get's angry at me and tells me it's perfect, and have no idea what I'm fussing about >_< --001a11c30ce24a2a7004ed595620 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 02:28, John Colvin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmai= l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thursday, 12 December 2= 013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.<br> Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and<br> great rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument<br> skills too.<br> </blockquote> <br> I wouldn&#39;t agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues = with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn&#39= ;t work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> As a lifelong musician this annoyed the hell out of me. The whole experienc= e ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is critical= .<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is quite sad how few people seem to kno= w how, or make the effort to setup their system properly, or know what the = typical sources of latency are... or even that there&#39;s such a thing as = latency in the first place.</div> <div>It&#39;s possible to make it near-perfect... but when I go to other pe= oples houses and try to play, it never is. And then I start fiddling with t= heir AV system for an hour while everyone get&#39;s angry at me and tells m= e it&#39;s perfect, and have no idea what I&#39;m fussing about &gt;_&lt;</= div> </div></div></div> --001a11c30ce24a2a7004ed595620--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 12/12/13 16:47, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

Not defending Guitar Hero here, but sometimes it is necessary to follow visual rather than sonic cues in performance -- e.g. the brass players and others at the back of a symphony orchestra will often play ahead of musicians at the very front, because the sound takes longer to get from them to the audience. There's a lot of subtle internal stuff that goes on with different sections of the orchestra having to react and play differently in order to keep the whole together, and a lot of that needs to be be modulated by following visual cues of one kind or another from various different people, sometimes against the grain of what your ears are getting. Then there are things like some extreme contemporary music where different musicians are effectively in different tempi -- you can play with a click-track, but sometimes it's easier or preferable to have flashing lights give you your own personal tempo. Plugged-in performance isn't really my area, but it wouldn't surprise me if having to deal with latency is an occasional occupational challenge there -- can anyone confirm? :-)
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
On 12 December 2013 17:43, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
<joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> wrote:
 On 12/12/13 16:47, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

Not defending Guitar Hero here, but sometimes it is necessary to follow visual rather than sonic cues in performance -- e.g. the brass players and others at the back of a symphony orchestra will often play ahead of musicians at the very front, because the sound takes longer to get from them to the audience. There's a lot of subtle internal stuff that goes on with different sections of the orchestra having to react and play differently in order to keep the whole together, and a lot of that needs to be be modulated by following visual cues of one kind or another from various different people, sometimes against the grain of what your ears are getting.

You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had the fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back musicians is > 200 metres. (Because sound doesn't travel *that* slow ;)
 Then there are things like some extreme contemporary music where different
 musicians are effectively in different tempi -- you can play with a
 click-track, but sometimes it's easier or preferable to have flashing lights
 give you your own personal tempo.

 Plugged-in performance isn't really my area, but it wouldn't surprise me if
 having to deal with latency is an occasional occupational challenge there --
 can anyone confirm? :-)

Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer, through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the receiver playing the instrument... is greater than 22ms, then the person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he hears himself in the song. If that happens, you are not in a good situation. =)
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel *that* slow
 ;)

Well, it's not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-)
 Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, then the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in a good
 situation. =)

So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 17:04:32 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 02:28, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:

 On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party 
 games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real 
 instrument
 skills too.

I wouldn't agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

As a lifelong musician this annoyed the hell out of me. The whole experience ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is critical.

It is quite sad how few people seem to know how, or make the effort to setup their system properly, or know what the typical sources of latency are... or even that there's such a thing as latency in the first place. It's possible to make it near-perfect... but when I go to other peoples houses and try to play, it never is. And then I start fiddling with their AV system for an hour while everyone get's angry at me and tells me it's perfect, and have no idea what I'm fussing about >_<

You just described my life :p
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had 
 the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first 
 and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel 
 *that* slow
 ;)

Well, it's not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-)
 Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound 
 to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into 
 the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the 
 mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional 
 live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the 
 mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of 
 the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, then 
 the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the 
 time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in a 
 good
 situation. =)

So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.

Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for recording a tight-sounding performance.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 17:43:57 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 Plugged-in performance isn't really my area, but it wouldn't 
 surprise me if having to deal with latency is an occasional 
 occupational challenge there -- can anyone confirm? :-)

It's a big deal when recording. Low latency drivers for lower-end audio interfaces are a constant source of problems, and it's common to run out of time in the prescribed latency (defined by buffer size and the sample rate) to do the audio processing you want, leading to having to render things offline or use less cpu intensive plugins. Digital mixers of the sort that are ubiqitous at modern gigs have had a lot of work put in to them to achieve as much as possible at as low a latency as possible.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 12/12/13 19:52, John Colvin wrote:
 Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing yourself
 that's the killer.

Think people listening to people they hear with delay for their musical cues, and the people they are listening to listening to _them_ for their musical cues, and the feedback effect that might result ... :-) You have to get used to the fact that the right time to play may sound like the wrong time to play relative to some other group spatially separated from you. By the same token, if everyone plays precisely with the conductor, they don't actually play precisely together as far as the audience is concerned, which is why professional orchestras tend to play a bit behind the conductor's beat.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbXkgTW91w6t6YQ==?= <remy.moueza gmail.com> writes:
If, when writting "mini and communication processing", you meant MIDI 
(Musical Instrument Digital Interface) instead of mini, you may be 
interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi library:
  - https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi
  - RtMidi website: http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/index.html

On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,
 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then
 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that
 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 09:20:38PM +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
 On 12/12/13 19:52, John Colvin wrote:
Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing
yourself that's the killer.

Think people listening to people they hear with delay for their musical cues, and the people they are listening to listening to _them_ for their musical cues, and the feedback effect that might result ... :-) You have to get used to the fact that the right time to play may sound like the wrong time to play relative to some other group spatially separated from you. By the same token, if everyone plays precisely with the conductor, they don't actually play precisely together as far as the audience is concerned, which is why professional orchestras tend to play a bit behind the conductor's beat.

Ahh, so *that's* why they do that!! I've always been wondering why the orchestra always seems to be out-of-beat with the conductor, and why the conductor's beats don't seem to line up with the actual sound. Thanks!! T -- If it's green, it's biology, If it stinks, it's chemistry, If it has numbers it's math, If it doesn't work, it's technology.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this?

I'm... interested. That's about all I can commit to at the moment :-) As for skillset... well I've been doing gamedev commercially for about 5 years now (last 4 years on console/PC) and I generally do a mix of high-level game logic, and core systems. I could quite happily do graphics, physics, as well. Not massively experienced with audio unfortunately. I do play guitar though :-D Please keep me informed.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 12/12/13 22:13, H. S. Teoh wrote:
 Ahh, so *that's* why they do that!! I've always been wondering why the
 orchestra always seems to be out-of-beat with the conductor, and why the
 conductor's beats don't seem to line up with the actual sound.

There's quite a nice blog post describing some of the reasons behind this here, if you're interested: http://blog.davidhthomas.net/2006/12/but-im-with-the-conductor/
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11333a4e7b9e0604ed619ce3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 03:43, Joseph Rushton Wakeling <
joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> wrote:

 On 12/12/13 16:47, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

Not defending Guitar Hero here, but sometimes it is necessary to follow visual rather than sonic cues in performance -- e.g. the brass players and others at the back of a symphony orchestra will often play ahead of musicians at the very front, because the sound takes longer to get from them to the audience. There's a lot of subtle internal stuff that goes on with different sections of the orchestra having to react and play differently in order to keep the whole together, and a lot of that needs to be be modulated by following visual cues of one kind or another from various different people, sometimes against the grain of what your ears are getting.

Hey that's a really interesting thought actually. I never considered that. I suppose this would only be applicable in a large auditorium though? I have a whole new appreciation for the conductor upon that revelation alone! :) Modern music has a conveniently placed foldback speaker, or even in-ear monitor... you all hear each other at the same time, it's easy enough to synchronise. Then there are things like some extreme contemporary music where different
 musicians are effectively in different tempi -- you can play with a
 click-track, but sometimes it's easier or preferable to have flashing
 lights give you your own personal tempo.

 Plugged-in performance isn't really my area, but it wouldn't surprise me
 if having to deal with latency is an occasional occupational challenge
 there -- can anyone confirm? :-)

Plugged in performance still uses low-tech analog technology, specifically to eliminate latency. Modern recording hardware has an element of wrangling latency, although that was more of a problem 5-10 years ago than it is now. At all comes from the switch to digital technology, where you need to start buffering blocks of audio, and performing burst transmissions. That's where latency really starts creeping into the system. Certainly prevalent in GH, which is running on cheap consumer hardware, which isn't really even designed for true low-latency gameplay (not to the standards a good musician expects). The work-around is a bunch of in-game knobs to specify latency offsets for various outputs (video/audio), against the input (controllers/keyboard/midi) which may also have its own latency. People need to properly understand the problem before they can configure these knobs properly, and most general players just don't even bother, they play right off the screen and ignore the music. --001a11333a4e7b9e0604ed619ce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 03:43, Joseph Rushton Wakeling <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre= f=3D"mailto:joseph.wakeling webdrake.net" target=3D"_blank">joseph.wakeling= webdrake.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 12/12/13 16:47, Jacob C= arlborg wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Not defending Guitar Hero here, but sometimes it is necessary to follow vis= ual rather than sonic cues in performance -- e.g. the brass players and oth= ers at the back of a symphony orchestra will often play ahead of musicians = at the very front, because the sound takes longer to get from them to the a= udience. =C2=A0There&#39;s a lot of subtle internal stuff that goes on with= different sections of the orchestra having to react and play differently i= n order to keep the whole together, and a lot of that needs to be be modula= ted by following visual cues of one kind or another from various different = people, sometimes against the grain of what your ears are getting.<br> </blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hey that&#39;s a really interesting though= t actually. I never considered that. I suppose this would only be applicabl= e in a large auditorium though?</div><div>I have a whole new appreciation f= or the conductor upon that revelation alone! :)</div> <div>Modern music has a conveniently placed foldback speaker, or even in-ea= r monitor... you all hear each other at the same time, it&#39;s easy enough= to synchronise.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl= e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Then there are things like some extreme contemporary music where different = musicians are effectively in different tempi -- you can play with a click-t= rack, but sometimes it&#39;s easier or preferable to have flashing lights g= ive you your own personal tempo.<br> <br> Plugged-in performance isn&#39;t really my area, but it wouldn&#39;t surpri= se me if having to deal with latency is an occasional occupational challeng= e there -- can anyone confirm? :-)<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Plugged in performa= nce still uses low-tech analog technology, specifically to eliminate latenc= y. Modern recording hardware has an element of wrangling latency, although = that was more of a problem 5-10 years ago than it is now.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">At all comes from the switch to digital technolo= gy, where you need to start buffering blocks of audio, and performing burst= transmissions. That&#39;s where latency really starts creeping into the sy= stem.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">Certainly prevalent in GH, which is running on c= heap consumer hardware, which isn&#39;t really even designed for true low-l= atency gameplay (not to the standards a good musician expects).</div><div c= lass=3D"gmail_extra"> The work-around is a bunch of in-game knobs to specify latency offsets for = various outputs (video/audio), against the input (controllers/keyboard/midi= ) which may also have its own latency.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Peop= le need to properly understand the problem before they can configure these = knobs properly, and most general players just don&#39;t even bother, they p= lay right off the screen and ignore the music.</div> </div> --001a11333a4e7b9e0604ed619ce3--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0149cd5e5cfc7104ed61b514
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 04:48, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 17:04:32 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 13 December 2013 02:28, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
  On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:
  So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn't work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.

experience ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is critical.

setup their system properly, or know what the typical sources of latency are... or even that there's such a thing as latency in the first place. It's possible to make it near-perfect... but when I go to other peoples houses and try to play, it never is. And then I start fiddling with their AV system for an hour while everyone get's angry at me and tells me it's perfect, and have no idea what I'm fussing about >_<

You just described my life :p

Hey, I hear you man! ;) --089e0149cd5e5cfc7104ed61b514 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 <div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 13 December 2013 04:48, John Colvin <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target="_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 17:04:32 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"> On 13 December 2013 02:28, John Colvin &lt;<a href="mailto:john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target="_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmail.<u></u>com</a>&gt;wrote:<br> <br> </div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 15:47:48 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On 2013-12-12 11:43, Manu wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.<br> Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and<br> great rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument<br> skills too.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> I wouldn&#39;t agree with that, at least not for Guitar Hero. I had issues<br> with the timing. When I played I tried to time the music, but that didn&#39;t<br> work. Instead I had to time the screen to get any points.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> As a lifelong musician this annoyed the hell out of me. The whole<br> experience ends up like reading annoying flashy sheet music. Low latency is<br> critical.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br></div></div><div class="im"> It is quite sad how few people seem to know how, or make the effort to<br> setup their system properly, or know what the typical sources of latency<br> are... or even that there&#39;s such a thing as latency in the first place.<br> It&#39;s possible to make it near-perfect... but when I go to other peoples<br> houses and try to play, it never is. And then I start fiddling with their<br> AV system for an hour while everyone get&#39;s angry at me and tells me it&#39;s<br> perfect, and have no idea what I&#39;m fussing about &gt;_&lt;<br> </div></blockquote> <br> You just described my life :p<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Hey, I hear you man! ;)</div></div> --089e0149cd5e5cfc7104ed61b514--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c2fcf61502b104ed61d6d6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:

 On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel *that* slow
 ;)

Well, it's not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-) Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, then the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in a good
 situation. =)

So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.

Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for recording a tight-sounding performance.

Latency between recording musicians has a strange effect of gradually slowing the tempo down. Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone monitors or something, and there is a small latency in the system. If you are playing together, but then you feel a 20ms latency between you and the other musician, you tend to perceive yourself as playing slightly too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, the same thing happens in the other direction, so you're both constantly slowing by a fraction to maintain perception of synchronisation, and the tempo gradually slows. It's almost an unconscious psychological response, quite hard to control in the studio. Man, my day job works in quantities of 16ms (1 frame), and I have spent many hours resolving inter-frame synchronisation issues (16ms out of synch). Maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive, but 64ms is extremely noticeable to me. 128ms is like an eternity! Consider, 16th notes at 120bpm (not unusual in metal, I assure you), are only 125ms apart, that more than an entire note out. Around 4ms is what professional recording setups aim for. --001a11c2fcf61502b104ed61d6d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmai= l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thursday, 12 December 2= 013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:<br> </div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> You know, I&#39;ve never had that... but then again I haven&#39;t had the<b= r> fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back<br> musicians is &gt; 200 metres. =C2=A0(Because sound doesn&#39;t travel *that= * slow<br> ;)<br> </blockquote> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> Well, it&#39;s not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things l= ike the speed of attack of different instruments and so on.<br> <br></div> Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for = some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the co= ncert hall for spatial effects? =C2=A0Things can get fun with that ... :-)<= div class=3D"im"> <br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave<br> your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the<br> studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to<br> the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the<br> recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live<br> effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,<br> through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the<br> receiver playing the instrument... =C2=A0is greater than 22ms, then the<br> person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he<br> hears himself in the song. =C2=A0If that happens, you are not in a good<br> situation. =3D)<br> </blockquote> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travell= ing in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of = delay to kick in.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> Delay between people isn&#39;t really the problem, it&#39;s delay in hearin= g yourself that&#39;s the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limi= t for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardle= ss of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less = than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem fo= r recording a tight-sounding performance.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Latency between rec= ording musicians has a strange effect of gradually slowing the tempo down. = Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone monitors or something, and= there is a small latency in the system.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">If you are playing together, but then you feel a= 20ms latency between you and the other musician, you tend to perceive your= self as playing slightly too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, t= he same thing happens in the other direction, so you&#39;re both constantly= slowing by a fraction to maintain perception of synchronisation, and the t= empo gradually slows.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">It&#39;s almost an unconscious psychological res= ponse, quite hard to control in the studio.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Man, my day job works in quantities o=

nisation issues (16ms out of synch). Maybe I&#39;m just hyper-sensitive, bu= t 64ms is extremely noticeable to me. 128ms is like an eternity!</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">Consider, 16th notes at 120bpm (not unusual in m= etal, I assure you), are only 125ms apart, that more than an entire note ou= t.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Around 4ms is what professional recordin= g setups aim for.</div> </div> --001a11c2fcf61502b104ed61d6d6--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0149cd5ed4a99804ed61ebbe
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 13 December 2013 06:42, R=C3=A9my Mou=C3=ABza <remy.moueza gmail.com> wr=
ote:

 If, when writting "mini and communication processing", you meant MIDI
 (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) instead of mini, you may be
 interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi library:
  - https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi
  - RtMidi website: http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/index.html

I did. Very handy! On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,
 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then
 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that
 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.


--089e0149cd5ed4a99804ed61ebbe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 06:42, R=C3=A9my Mou=C3=ABza <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href= =3D"mailto:remy.moueza gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">remy.moueza gmail.com</= a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">If, when writting &quot;mini and communicati= on processing&quot;, you meant MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) = instead of mini, you may be interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi librar= y:<br> =C2=A0- <a href=3D"https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi" target=3D"_b= lank">https://github.com/remy-j-a-<u></u>moueza/drtmidi</a><br> =C2=A0- RtMidi website: <a href=3D"http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/= index.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~<u></u>gary/rtmid= i/index.html</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I did. Very handy!</div><d= iv><br> </div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 = 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.<br> Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and<br> great rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument<br> skills too.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up<br> the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.<br> It&#39;s annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across<br> literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change<br> disc&#39;s if you want to play the songs you like.<br> <br> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,<br> and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then<br> when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into<br> hibernation.<br> <br> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with<br> clean code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be<br> interested in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more<br> motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.<br> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,<br> super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,<br> animation, UI and presentation.<br> <br> I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of<br> project lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that<= br> sort of software before.<br> <br> It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and<br> performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> </blockquote></div><br></div></div> --089e0149cd5ed4a99804ed61ebbe--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Danni Coy <danni.coy gmail.com> writes:
Have you looked at Rocksmith? If I were going to spend a lot time
doing a guitar/music game - I would probably look in that direction.
As far as I know most audio professionals consider lantencies under
20ms acceptable but preferably smaller. from what I understand the
brain itself has a latency of about 12ms.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 06:42, Rmy Mouza <remy.moueza gmail.com> wrote:
 If, when writting "mini and communication processing", you meant MIDI
 (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) instead of mini, you may be
 interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi library:
  - https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi
  - RtMidi website: http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/index.html

I did. Very handy!
 On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2,
 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then
 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that
 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.



Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c30a68c8d36904ed62df9d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 13 December 2013 14:07, Danni Coy <danni.coy gmail.com> wrote:

 Have you looked at Rocksmith?

I have, and I definitely want to work that in... but game-ify it a bit more= . That's substantially more work though, so I think GH is a simpler first target which will get UI and presentation out of the way, encourage more users+contributors, and should leave a good framework for any tightly synchronised gameplay. It would be a very interesting piece of work though for someone awesome at signal analysis, to take an input audio stream and effectively break it into midi trigger information. Given that, it's easy to make a game on top. If I were going to spend a lot time
 doing a guitar/music game - I would probably look in that direction.
 As far as I know most audio professionals consider lantencies under
 20ms acceptable but preferably smaller. from what I understand the
 brain itself has a latency of about 12ms.

 On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 06:42, R=C3=A9my Mou=C3=ABza <remy.moueza gmail.com=

 If, when writting "mini and communication processing", you meant MIDI
 (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) instead of mini, you may be
 interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi library:
  - https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi
  - RtMidi website: http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/index.html

I did. Very handy!
 On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I wa=




 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently, it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and
 great rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked =




 the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists.
 It's annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across
 literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly change
 disc's if you want to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out.=




 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2=




 and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but th=




 when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went int=




 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with
 clean code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be
 interested in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more
 motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing=




 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of
 project lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write tha=




 sort of software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time=







--001a11c30a68c8d36904ed62df9d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 14:07, Danni Coy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:da= nni.coy gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danni.coy gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Have you looked at Rocksmith?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have, and I= definitely want to work that in... but game-ify it a bit more.</div><div>T= hat&#39;s substantially more work though, so I think GH is a simpler first = target which will get UI and presentation out of the way, encourage more us= ers+contributors, and should leave a good framework for any tightly synchro= nised gameplay.</div> <div><br></div><div>It would be a very interesting piece of work though for= someone awesome at signal analysis, to take an input audio stream and effe= ctively break it into midi trigger information.</div><div>Given that, it&#3= 9;s easy to make a game on top.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> If I were going to spend a l= ot time<br> doing a guitar/music game - I would probably look in that direction.<br> As far as I know most audio professionals consider lantencies under<br> 20ms acceptable but preferably smaller. from what I understand the<br> brain itself has a latency of about 12ms.<br> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Manu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:turkeyman gmail= .com">turkeyman gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt; On 13 December 2013 06:42, R=C3=A9my Mou=C3=ABza &lt;<a href=3D"mailto= :remy.moueza gmail.com">remy.moueza gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt; If, when writting &quot;mini and communication processing&quot;, y= ou meant MIDI<br> &gt;&gt; (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) instead of mini, you may be= <br> &gt;&gt; interesting by my bindings to the RtMidi library:<br> &gt;&gt; =C2=A0- <a href=3D"https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi" tar= get=3D"_blank">https://github.com/remy-j-a-moueza/drtmidi</a><br> &gt;&gt; =C2=A0- RtMidi website: <a href=3D"http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gar= y/rtmidi/index.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtm= idi/index.html</a><br> &gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt; I did. Very handy!<br> &gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt;&gt; On 12/12/2013 11:43 AM, Manu wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully = admit that I was<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years a= go.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; Recently, it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party g= ames, and<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; great rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real i= nstrument<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; skills too.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely = fucked up<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; the GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented track= lists.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; It&#39;s annoying that all the songs you want to play are spre= ad across<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; literally 10 or so different games, and you need to constantly= change<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; disc&#39;s if you want to play the songs you like.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH= 2 came out. I<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor = for PS2,<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; and I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived,= but then<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; when they announced those games they stole my thunder and it w= ent into<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; hibernation.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new = one, with<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; clean code, in D).<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would b= e<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; interested in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot= more<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; motivating, and much more fun to work in a small team.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio proc= essing,<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications pro= cessing,<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; animation, UI and presentation.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sor= t of<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; project lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried t= o write that<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; sort of software before.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large sc= ale and<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time = to time.<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;<br> <br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div> --001a11c30a68c8d36904ed62df9d--
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 10:47:36PM +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
 On 12/12/13 22:13, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Ahh, so *that's* why they do that!! I've always been wondering why
the orchestra always seems to be out-of-beat with the conductor, and
why the conductor's beats don't seem to line up with the actual
sound.

There's quite a nice blog post describing some of the reasons behind this here, if you're interested: http://blog.davidhthomas.net/2006/12/but-im-with-the-conductor/

Interesting! Makes total sense, though. You're dealing with 100+ human players, and keeping them all in sync is quite challenging. It's totally different if you're playing a computer-conducted orchestra, where everything is mechanically kept in top-notch sync. :P For some reason, that doesn't sound as good as a live orchestra. (I read somewhere that it is due to our brains automatically filtering out repetitive stimuli. The precise timing of computer-generated music produces an exact, mechanical rhythm, which causes the brain to tune out, resulting the perception of dullness or tiredness. Human players, OTOH, are always ever so slightly off beat, and the slight variations keep the brain interested and not tune out. Same thing applies to the precise attack velocities of computer-generated notes -- after a while it feels tiring because it's exactly the same velocity over and over. Human players produce quite a wide variety of attack velocities, even when playing the same notes over and over, which makes it far more interesting to listen to. Inexactness isn't always a bad thing!) T -- Study gravitation, it's a field with a lot of potential.
Dec 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
On 13 December 2013 03:12, Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>
 wrote:
 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:
 On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel *that* slow
 ;)

Well, it's not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-)
 Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, then the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in a good
 situation. =)

So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.

Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for recording a tight-sounding performance.

Latency between recording musicians has a strange effect of gradually slowing the tempo down. Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone monitors or something, and there is a small latency in the system. If you are playing together, but then you feel a 20ms latency between you and the other musician, you tend to perceive yourself as playing slightly too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, the same thing happens in the other direction, so you're both constantly slowing by a fraction to maintain perception of synchronisation, and the tempo gradually slows. It's almost an unconscious psychological response, quite hard to control in the studio.

You could argue that it makes the musicians *real*. :) It is however one reason why I prefer recording all musicians playing together rather than in isolation. I love the sound of music from the 60s/70s, in which the musicians that made those records never worked to click tracks. The result is that their timing is all over the place - speeding up, slowing down, what have you. I love it, it gives you a feeling of excitement, and it sounds great. :)
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 03:13:16 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
 Wakeling
 wrote:

 On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't 
 had the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first 
 and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel 
 *that* slow
 ;)

Well, it's not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-) Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into 
 the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the 
 mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional 
 live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to 
 the mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones 
 of the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, 
 then the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to 
 the time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in 
 a good
 situation. =)

So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.

Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for recording a tight-sounding performance.

Latency between recording musicians has a strange effect of gradually slowing the tempo down. Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone monitors or something, and there is a small latency in the system. If you are playing together, but then you feel a 20ms latency between you and the other musician, you tend to perceive yourself as playing slightly too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, the same thing happens in the other direction, so you're both constantly slowing by a fraction to maintain perception of synchronisation, and the tempo gradually slows. It's almost an unconscious psychological response, quite hard to control in the studio.

Interesting. This isn't a phenomena that I've experienced to be honest, generally people's tendency to speed up has dominated most sessions that are without click. Also, 20ms round-trip latency? That's unusually small.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 20:20:46 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 On 12/12/13 19:52, John Colvin wrote:
 Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in 
 hearing yourself
 that's the killer.

Think people listening to people they hear with delay for their musical cues, and the people they are listening to listening to _them_ for their musical cues, and the feedback effect that might result ... :-) You have to get used to the fact that the right time to play may sound like the wrong time to play relative to some other group spatially separated from you.

I don't doubt it's a problem, but at least in the orchestra or with acoustic instruments in general you have the luxury of having hand-ear synchronization. For an electric guitarist in the studio, you have actual latency between when you feel the pick strike in your hand and when you hear it in your ears, sometimes up to 64ms. It's a complete nightmare.
 By the same token, if everyone plays precisely with the 
 conductor, they don't actually play precisely together as far 
 as the audience is concerned, which is why professional 
 orchestras tend to play a bit behind the conductor's beat.

An interesting side-effect of this is in recordings of orchestras. In order to reconstruct the feel of the music from the audiences* perspective, you actually have to time-delay the different mics from different sections! *but where in the audience? Decisions, decisions...
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c1f6d62b7a5e04ed688fb2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 19:22, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 03:13:16 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:

  On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:
  You know, I've never had that... but then again I haven't had the
 fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back
 musicians is > 200 metres.  (Because sound doesn't travel *that* slow
 ;)

like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on. Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of the concert hall for spatial effects? Things can get fun with that ... :-) Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leave
 your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the
 studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to
 the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the
 recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live
 effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,
 through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the
 receiver playing the instrument...  is greater than 22ms, then the
 person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he
 hears himself in the song.  If that happens, you are not in a good
 situation. =)

travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that kind of delay to kick in.

yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for recording a tight-sounding performance.

slowing the tempo down. Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone monitors or something, and there is a small latency in the system. If you are playing together, but then you feel a 20ms latency between you and the other musician, you tend to perceive yourself as playing slightly too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, the same thing happens in the other direction, so you're both constantly slowing by a fraction to maintain perception of synchronisation, and the tempo gradually slows. It's almost an unconscious psychological response, quite hard to control in the studio.

Interesting. This isn't a phenomena that I've experienced to be honest, generally people's tendency to speed up has dominated most sessions that are without click.

Haha, that's true. Naturally, I've observed that too, but that just happens all the time regardless! :) Maybe it requires a slightly higher latency than 20ms, but it does reach a point where the interplay between musicians who are each trying to unconsciously re-sync against the others causes some weird changes in overall tempo. When it reaches the conscious stage, then they just say it's broken and demand the tech to fix it. But there's a window there that triggers the unconscious micro-re-sync efforts, and that's where it gets weird in my experience. Also, 20ms round-trip latency? That's unusually small.

God I hope not. Depends on how many digital effects are in the loop I guess. It's not show-stopping latency, but I start to feel it personally at 20ms or so. Like I said before though, I might have trained myself to be hyper-sensitive. --001a11c1f6d62b7a5e04ed688fb2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 19:22, John Colvin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmai= l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Friday, 13 December 201= 3 at 03:13:16 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john.loughran.= colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmail.<u></u>com</= a>&gt;wrote:<br> <br> </div><div><div class=3D"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 18:31:58 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling<br> wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On 12/12/13 19:15, Iain Buclaw wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> You know, I&#39;ve never had that... but then again I haven&#39;t had the<b= r> fortune of being in a band where distance between the first and back<br> musicians is &gt; 200 metres. =C2=A0(Because sound doesn&#39;t travel *that= * slow<br> ;)<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> Well, it&#39;s not _just_ about the speed of sound, there are also things<b= r> like the speed of attack of different instruments and so on.<br> <br> Then again, ever been to a performance of one of those pieces that ask<br> for some musicians to be placed in different locations round the back of<br=

. :-)<br> <br> <br> =C2=A0Only in the recording studio - if the time it takes for sound to leav= e<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> your instrument, into the microphone, through the walls into the<br> studio booth, into the mixer (and assuming digital) from the mixer to<br> the sound card, to the DAW software mixer which is taking the<br> recording and mixing it in with the playing tracks (optional live<br> effects processing being done) back to the sound card, to the mixer,<br> through the walls into the studio room, into the headphones of the<br> receiver playing the instrument... =C2=A0is greater than 22ms, then the<br> person playing experiences a delay in the time he plays to the time he<br> hears himself in the song. =C2=A0If that happens, you are not in a good<br> situation. =3D)<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> So, if your latency is 22ms, think of how that corresponds to sound<br> travelling in space: you only need to be separated by about 7.5m for that<b= r> kind of delay to kick in.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> Delay between people isn&#39;t really the problem, it&#39;s delay in hearin= g<br> yourself that&#39;s the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit = for<br> noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of<= br> frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than<b= r> 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for<br> recording a tight-sounding performance.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br></div></div><div class=3D"im"> Latency between recording musicians has a strange effect of gradually<br> slowing the tempo down. Ie, if both musicians are playing with headphone<br=

If you are playing together, but then you feel a 20ms latency between you<b= r> and the other musician, you tend to perceive yourself as playing slightly<b= r> too fast, and then adjust by slowing a fraction, the same thing happens in<= br> the other direction, so you&#39;re both constantly slowing by a fraction to= <br> maintain perception of synchronisation, and the tempo gradually slows.<br> It&#39;s almost an unconscious psychological response, quite hard to contro= l in<br> the studio.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> <br> Interesting. This isn&#39;t a phenomena that I&#39;ve experienced to be hon= est, generally people&#39;s tendency to speed up has dominated most session= s that are without click.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Haha, that&#3= 9;s true. Naturally, I&#39;ve observed that too, but that just happens all = the time regardless! :)</div> <div>Maybe it requires a slightly higher latency than 20ms, but it does rea= ch a point where the interplay between musicians who are each trying to unc= onsciously re-sync against the others causes some weird changes in overall = tempo.</div> <div>When it reaches the conscious stage, then they just say it&#39;s broke= n and demand the tech to fix it. But there&#39;s a window there that trigge= rs the unconscious micro-re-sync efforts, and that&#39;s where it gets weir= d in my experience.</div> <div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma= rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Also, 20ms round-trip latency? That&#39;s unusually small.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">God I hope not. Dep= ends on how many digital effects are in the loop I guess.</div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra">It&#39;s not show-stopping latency, but I start to feel it= personally at 20ms or so. Like I said before though, I might have trained = myself to be hyper-sensitive.</div> </div> --001a11c1f6d62b7a5e04ed688fb2--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c1d19c87882b04ed689c9b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 19:31, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com>wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 20:20:46 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:

 On 12/12/13 19:52, John Colvin wrote:

 Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing
 yourself
 that's the killer.

Think people listening to people they hear with delay for their musical cues, and the people they are listening to listening to _them_ for their musical cues, and the feedback effect that might result ... :-) You have to get used to the fact that the right time to play may sound like the wrong time to play relative to some other group spatially separated from you.

I don't doubt it's a problem, but at least in the orchestra or with acoustic instruments in general you have the luxury of having hand-ear synchronization. For an electric guitarist in the studio, you have actual latency between when you feel the pick strike in your hand and when you hear it in your ears, sometimes up to 64ms. It's a complete nightmare.

I've experienced the same slowing effect I mentioned before in this context too. Have you ever trying playing with a delay AND an uncomfortably high latency? Since you're playing with a delay, you're effectively playing against yourself from a couple 100ms ago. If you play when you hear yourself, but there's an effective latency on that note trigger, it will compound that latency, and you'll drift towards a slower tempo as you play. It's so weird when I feel myself do it, but it's awfully hard to control (I don't have mates to play music with... I play a lot with a delay/looper). By the same token, if everyone plays precisely with the conductor, they
 don't actually play precisely together as far as the audience is concerned,
 which is why professional orchestras tend to play a bit behind the
 conductor's beat.

An interesting side-effect of this is in recordings of orchestras. In order to reconstruct the feel of the music from the audiences* perspective, you actually have to time-delay the different mics from different sections! *but where in the audience? Decisions, decisions...

--001a11c1d19c87882b04ed689c9b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 19:31, John Colvin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:= john.loughran.colvin gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">john.loughran.colvin gmai= l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 20:20:46 UT= C, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> On 12/12/13 19:52, John Colvin wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Delay between people isn&#39;t really the problem, it&#39;s delay in hearin= g yourself<br> that&#39;s the killer.<br> </blockquote> <br></div><div class=3D"im"> Think people listening to people they hear with delay for their musical cue= s, and the people they are listening to listening to _them_ for their music= al cues, and the feedback effect that might result ... :-) =C2=A0You have t= o get used to the fact that the right time to play may sound like the wrong= time to play relative to some other group spatially separated from you.<br=

</div></blockquote> <br> I don&#39;t doubt it&#39;s a problem, but at least in the orchestra or with= acoustic instruments in general you have the luxury of having hand-ear syn= chronization. For an electric guitarist in the studio, you have actual late= ncy between when you feel the pick strike in your hand and when you hear it= in your ears, sometimes up to 64ms. It&#39;s a complete nightmare.</blockq= uote> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve experienced the same slowing effect I mentione= d before in this context too.</div><div>Have you ever trying playing with a= delay AND an uncomfortably high latency? Since you&#39;re playing with a d= elay, you&#39;re effectively playing against yourself from a couple 100ms a= go. If you play when you hear yourself, but there&#39;s an effective latenc= y on that note trigger, it will compound that latency, and you&#39;ll drift= towards a slower tempo as you play.</div> <div>It&#39;s so weird when I feel myself do it, but it&#39;s awfully hard = to control (I don&#39;t have mates to play music with... I play a lot with = a delay/looper).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm= ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le= ft:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> By the same token, if everyone plays precisely with the conductor, they don= &#39;t actually play precisely together as far as the audience is concerned= , which is why professional orchestras tend to play a bit behind the conduc= tor&#39;s beat.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> An interesting side-effect of this is in recordings of orchestras. In order= to reconstruct the feel of the music from the audiences* perspective, you = actually have to time-delay the different mics from different sections!<br> <br> *but where in the audience? Decisions, decisions...<br> </blockquote></div><br></div></div> --001a11c1d19c87882b04ed689c9b--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 11:14:05 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
wrote:
 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago. Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party 
 games, and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument 
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across 
 literally 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change 
 disc's if you want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but 
 then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would 
 be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio 
 processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications 
 processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a 
 sort of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that 
 sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large 
 scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time 
 to time.

I would be happy to help with the gui side of thing just to get DOOGLE more inline with what is required from it. Assuming DOOGLE is ok for it. It is designed to work on top of games so it is perfect for this type of thing I'm just worried of its state and being ready.

DOOGLE (kind of a pun in Ireland): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Father_Ted_characters#Father_Dougal_McGuire Check it out on youtube ("Father Ted").
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago. Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, 
 and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument 
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across 
 literally 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's 
 if you want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but 
 then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio 
 processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications 
 processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort 
 of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that 
 sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large 
 scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time 
 to time.

Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested in this for 2 reasons: 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in D (and in the industry) is just perfect Please consider me!
Dec 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-13 15:50, Manu wrote:

 Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just
 one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)
 I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't
 need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be
 wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

No need for an Objective-C file. The Objective-C methods can be accessed through the C functions available in the Objective-C runtime from D. Although, as been mentioned many times before, that's verbose and cumbersome. Both are ugly solutions, don't know which is the least ugly. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-13 17:49, Manu wrote:

 Maybe one day we'll get extern(Obj-C), that'll be an exciting day :)

I couldn't agree more :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-13 18:11, Manu wrote:

 I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are
 windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and
 all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it
 stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an
 insatiable lust for Apple products.

Unfortunately most games suck on Mac OS X. I don't know if they're just badly coded, if it's the drivers or the OpenGL implementation. Many games that work perfectly fine at highest resolution and detail level on Windows is barley playable on low settings on Mac OS X. Only a few games are good on Mac OS X. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 03:48, Manu wrote:

 I've done mac ports before. In terms of scheduling though, it always
 gets barely any time or attention.
 Bare minimum to get it running, and doesn't help that it's usually being
 written by a windows programmer working against his will :)

Yeah, I guess that's one of the biggest problems, it's always ports. Mac is rarely part of the main platforms. And we shouldn't even start talking about Cider (commercial version of Wine). BTW, I read on a forum that for Bioshock Infinity they deliberately remove the highest resolutions and visual details on the Mac version because Mac OS X only supports OpenGL 3.x. But now with the latest Mac OS X Mavericks which supports OpenGL 4.x they have released patches to enable the highest resolutions and visual details. I'm wondering how much of an issue this is, too old OpenGL implementation. I'm not so experienced with game development but I would think that it's fairly easy to build cross-platform games, at least for computers. For other applications it seems like the biggest issue is the GUI. But since most games use a completely custom GUI anyway that wouldn't be a so much of a problem. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-14 13:54, Marco Leise wrote:

 Read about Valve's port of Left 4 Dead 2 here:
 http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

 They say their Linux port ran at 6 FPS before they started
 optimizing. But it was also in part due to a bad OpenGL
 implementation. (I remember even Doom 3 running at 2 FPS on my
 previous PC until the drivers were updated. -.-)

Yeah, I've heard of that. Unfortunately that's Linux and not Mac OS X. Hopefully the games will get better on Mac OS X as well. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Rikki Cattermole" <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:30:36 UTC, Chris wrote:
 DOOGLE (kind of a pun in Ireland):

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Father_Ted_characters#Father_Dougal_McGuire

 Check it out on youtube ("Father Ted").

I had no idea when I named it that. Since it was based originally from OOGL (c++ lib). Although different spelling.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Rikki Cattermole" <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie 
 gamedev (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I 
 am really interested in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I 
 would like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so 
 new experience in D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
wrote:
 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner 
 wrote:
 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to 
 indie gamedev (1 title released commercially, another on the 
 way). I am really interested in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) 
 I would like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects 
 so new experience in D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0149c506b7632c04ed6b7cd6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 22:37, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally
 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's if you
 want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested in this for 2 reasons: 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in D (and in the industry) is just perfect Please consider me!

Awesome. Consider yourself considered! Although open-source doesn't really have try-outs. Just make pull requests, and if it's suitable it gets merged; you're now a contributor! :P I'd really like to use this as an excuse to push D-on-iOS/Android forward. The arm compiler more-or-less works, we should definitely try and apply it. iOS or Android are both relevant modern targets. I'm encouraged by the number of interested people actually! I thought it would be a nice idea - fun community side project which stresses lots of the aspects of D which I feel don't get enough attention; real-time, low-latency, cross-platform... One of the key reasons I put it to the forum like this, was because I'm interested to get other contributors who might not be typical game coders, and try and get contributors who would write more idiomatic D code than I would involved to keep me in check. My D code is kinda C-ish... I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I want to see what an ambitious (commercial-grade) game looks like written in D, not in C-ish-D. It'll be a great case study, and a fun project. I'll get a project skeleton together soon. I'm off to do the family christmas thing from tomorrow, but I'll get to it after that, next time I'm sitting here wondering what to do. Or perhaps sooner, about 5 minutes after the next time my girlfriend fires up Guitar Hero ;) I'll populate the issue tracker with a task-list for a first-playable milestone as I see it, and people can join and grab bits that they like. --089e0149c506b7632c04ed6b7cd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 22:37, Szymon Gatner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt= o:noemail gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div><div>On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago. Recently,= <br> it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and gre= at<br> rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument skills to= o.<br> <br> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the= <br> GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It&#39;s<b= r> annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally 10= <br> or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc&#39;s if you = want<br> to play the songs you like.<br> <br> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and<= br> I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when<br=

hibernation.<br> <br> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with cle= an<br> code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested<= br> in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and mu= ch<br> more fun to work in a small team.<br> <br> It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,<br> super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,<br> animation, UI and presentation.<br> <br> I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project<= br> lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that sort of<= br> software before.<br> <br> It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and<br> performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div> Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev (1 = title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested in= this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would like = to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in D (an= d in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Awesome.</div><div>= Consider yourself considered! Although open-source doesn&#39;t really have = try-outs. Just make pull requests, and if it&#39;s suitable it gets merged;= you&#39;re now a contributor! :P</div> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;d really like to use this as an excuse to push D-= on-iOS/Android forward. The arm compiler more-or-less works, we should defi= nitely try and apply it. iOS or Android are both relevant modern targets.</= div> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;m encouraged by the number of interested people a= ctually!</div><div>I thought it would be a nice idea - fun community side p= roject which stresses lots of the aspects of D which I feel don&#39;t get e= nough attention; real-time, low-latency, cross-platform...</div> <div>One of the key reasons I put it to the forum like this, was because I&= #39;m interested to get other contributors who might not be typical game co= ders, and try and get contributors who would write more idiomatic D code th= an I would involved to keep me in check.</div> <div>My D code is kinda C-ish... I don&#39;t think that&#39;s necessarily a= bad thing, but I want to see what an ambitious (commercial-grade) game loo= ks like written in D, not in C-ish-D. It&#39;ll be a great case study, and = a fun project.</div> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll get a project skeleton together soon. I&#39;m = off to do the family christmas thing from tomorrow, but I&#39;ll get to it = after that, next time I&#39;m sitting here wondering what to do. Or perhaps= sooner, about 5 minutes after the next time my girlfriend fires up Guitar = Hero ;)</div> <div>I&#39;ll populate the issue tracker with a task-list for a first-playa= ble milestone as I see it, and people can join and grab bits that they like= .</div></div></div></div> --089e0149c506b7632c04ed6b7cd6--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--047d7b5d42f8d0aada04ed6b8934
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 23:06, Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:

 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

One step at a time :) It doesn't need to be released on the appstore, a running proof of concept would be a nice first step. Probably easier to start on Android though, and perhaps even more relevant these days. --047d7b5d42f8d0aada04ed6b8934 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 <div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 13 December 2013 23:06, Rikki Cattermole <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:alphaglosined gmail.com" target="_blank">alphaglosined gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested in this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in D (and in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br> </blockquote> <br></div>
From the sounds of it, it&#39;ll be a community project so no worries, just
join in.<br>

Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.<br> </blockquote></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">One step at a time :)</div><div class="gmail_extra">It doesn&#39;t need to be released on the appstore, a running proof of concept would be a nice first step.</div> <div class="gmail_extra">Probably easier to start on Android though, and perhaps even more relevant these days.</div></div> --047d7b5d42f8d0aada04ed6b8934--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--047d7b5d42f8e81cdd04ed6b9371
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:

 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.

Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :) I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file. --047d7b5d42f8e81cdd04ed6b9371 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 3 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt= o:noemail gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:0= 6:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev (1 = title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested in= this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would like = to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in D (an= d in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br> </blockquote> <br>
From the sounds of it, it&#39;ll be a community project so no worries, just=

Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and g= etting on iOS. They could definitely use the help!<br> Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain no= t verified by Apple.<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div> Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And compiler= is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is writ= ten in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.<br></blockquote> <div><br></div><div>Really? Everything I&#39;ve ever written on iOS was in = full C++, with just one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input ev= ents :)</div><div>I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A= game doesn&#39;t need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service ca= lls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.</div> </div></div></div> --047d7b5d42f8e81cdd04ed6b9371--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:48:13 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 23:06, Rikki Cattermole 
 <alphaglosined gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner 
 wrote:

 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to 
 indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am 
 really interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) 
 I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new 
 experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

One step at a time :) It doesn't need to be released on the appstore, a running proof of concept would be a nice first step. Probably easier to start on Android though, and perhaps even more relevant these days.

As a indie I can tell you that Android is ridiculously hard (or impossible) to make a living on... Google made it so easy to install apps that piracy is a norm. Apple has its flaws (Xcode was a horrible horrible thing before very recently when they switched to clang) but there is a chance to get your investment back at least.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner 
 wrote:

 Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to 
 indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am 
 really interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on 
 iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new 
 experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.

Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :) I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line instead of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my projects portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e01184702f5921504ed6c13a8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 00:54, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:48:13 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 13 December 2013 23:06, Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com>
 wrote:

  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
  Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really
 interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience
 in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

It doesn't need to be released on the appstore, a running proof of concept would be a nice first step. Probably easier to start on Android though, and perhaps even more relevant these days.

As a indie I can tell you that Android is ridiculously hard (or impossible) to make a living on... Google made it so easy to install apps that piracy is a norm. Apple has its flaws (Xcode was a horrible horrible thing before very recently when they switched to clang) but there is a chance to get your investment back at least.

It's true. But this project isn't intended to make money, so at least if we can proof-of-concept, then we're one step closer than we were. --089e01184702f5921504ed6c13a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 00:54, Szymon Gatner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt= o:noemail gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:48:13 UTC, Manu wrote:<= br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"> On 13 December 2013 23:06, Rikki Cattermole &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alphaglos= ined gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alphaglosined gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=

</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev<br> (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested= <br> in this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would<br> like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in<= br> D (and in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br> <br> </blockquote> <br>
From the sounds of it, it&#39;ll be a community project so no worries, just=

join in.<br> Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and<b= r> getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help!<br> Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain<br=

<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div><div class=3D"im"> One step at a time :)<br> It doesn&#39;t need to be released on the appstore, a running proof of conc= ept<br> would be a nice first step.<br> Probably easier to start on Android though, and perhaps even more relevant<= br> these days.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> As a indie I can tell you that Android is ridiculously hard (or impossible)= to make a living on... Google made it so easy to install apps that piracy = is a norm. Apple has its flaws (Xcode was a horrible horrible thing before = very recently when they switched to clang) but there is a chance to get you= r investment back at least.<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It&#39;s true. But = this project isn&#39;t intended to make money, so at least if we can proof-= of-concept, then we&#39;re one step closer than we were.</div></div> --089e01184702f5921504ed6c13a8--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e015369f052b4ea04ed6c1d2a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:
  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
  Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really
 interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new
 experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.

.m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :) I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line instead of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my projects portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)

Indeed, but I would just never try and debug the iOS build :) I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a straggling iOS specific issue... but they're typically few and far between, particularly if your tech has good portability to start with. --089e015369f052b4ea04ed6c1d2a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt= o:noemail gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"> On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noemail gmai= l.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamedev<br> (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really interested= <br> in this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would<br> like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new experience in<= br> D (and in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br> <br> </blockquote> <br>
From the sounds of it, it&#39;ll be a community project so no worries, just=

join in.<br> Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and<b= r> getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help!<br> Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain<br=

<br> </blockquote> <br> Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And<br> compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that= <br> is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br></div></div><div class=3D"im"> Really? Everything I&#39;ve ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just = one<br> .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)<br> I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn&#39;t = need<br> access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C= <br> functions in the marshalling .m file.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant deb= ugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap com= pared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line inste= ad of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my projects porta= ble so that is a part of a problem but still ;)<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Indeed, but I would= just never try and debug the iOS build :)</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">= I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a stragg= ling iOS specific issue... but they&#39;re typically few and far between, p= articularly if your tech has good portability to start with.</div> </div> --089e015369f052b4ea04ed6c1d2a--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 15:28:41 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 14 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> 
 wrote:

  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki 
 Cattermole wrote:
  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner 
 wrote:
  Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to 
 indie gamedev
 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am 
 really
 interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on 
 iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so 
 new
 experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!

worries, just join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple.

compiler. And compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.

with just one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :) I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line instead of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my projects portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)

Indeed, but I would just never try and debug the iOS build :) I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a straggling iOS specific issue... but they're typically few and far between, particularly if your tech has good portability to start with.

LOL so I am not the only one he does iOS programming more on Windows than on Mac. Btw I was very surprised to see that most (if not all) attendees of DConf had Mac Books. I hate mine with passion.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 13/12/13 16:35, Szymon Gatner wrote:
 LOL so I am not the only one he does iOS programming more on Windows than on
 Mac. Btw I was very surprised to see that most (if not all) attendees of DConf
 had Mac Books. I hate mine with passion.

How many of them had installed Linux in place of Mac OS? ;-)
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--047d7b47202c5426f504ed6d3a54
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 01:35, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 15:28:41 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 14 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:

  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:
  On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail gmail.com> wrote:
  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:

  Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie
 gamedev

 (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really
 interested
 in this for 2 reasons:
 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
 like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new
 experience in
 D (and in the industry) is just perfect

 Please consider me!


  From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries,

join in. Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support and getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help! Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain not verified by Apple. Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And

that is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy. Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with

.m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :) I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line instead of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my projects portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)

I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a straggling iOS specific issue... but they're typically few and far between, particularly if your tech has good portability to start with.

LOL so I am not the only one he does iOS programming more on Windows than on Mac.

Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac... Many of my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do their iOS dev! I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary, walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)
 Btw I was very surprised to see that most (if not all) attendees of DConf
 had Mac Books. I hate mine with passion.

Me too! I was absolutely astonished! Sickened even! It was 100 times worse when I was standing on that bloody stage looking at 100 little glowing apple logo's on the backs of everyone's screens, twice! I did manage to resist the urge for public (and filmed) comment, it took every bit of restraint I had though :P That said, I'm not so exclusive to not support their platform in my software. And they do have a good appstore, which is viable for indy's. --047d7b47202c5426f504ed6d3a54 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 01:35, Szymon Gatner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt= o:noemail gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;= border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:= solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 15:28:41 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"> On 14 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noemail gmai= l.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noemail gmai= l.com" target=3D"_blank">noemail gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> <br> =C2=A0On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:<= br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> <br> =C2=A0On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> <br> =C2=A0Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie gamed= ev<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really<br> interested<br> in this for 2 reasons:<br> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience<br> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would<br> like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new<br> experience in<br> D (and in the industry) is just perfect<br> <br> Please consider me!<br> <br> <br> </blockquote>
From the sounds of it, it&#39;ll be a community project so no worries, just=

join in.<br> Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support<br> and<br> getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help!<br> Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool chain<br=

<br> <br> </blockquote> Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And<br> compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app<br> that<br> is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.<br> <br> <br> </blockquote> Really? Everything I&#39;ve ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just = one<br> .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)<br> I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn&#39;t<= br> need<br> access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped in<b= r> C<br> functions in the marshalling .m file.<br> <br> </blockquote> <br> That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant<br> debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still crap<= br> compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line<br=

br> portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)<br> <br> </blockquote> <br></div></div><div class=3D"im"> Indeed, but I would just never try and debug the iOS build :)<br> I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a<br> straggling iOS specific issue... but they&#39;re typically few and far betw= een,<br> particularly if your tech has good portability to start with.<br> </div></blockquote> <br> LOL so I am not the only one he does iOS programming more on Windows than o= n Mac.</blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Fuck, I&#= 39;m yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac... Many of = my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do their = iOS dev!</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I&#39;d never give a cent to Apple and support t= heir exclusive, proprietary, walled-garden wanker&#39;s club if I can help = it! ;)</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20= 4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> Btw I was very surprised to see that most (if not all) attendees of DConf h= ad Mac Books. I hate mine with passion.<br> </blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D= "gmail_extra">Me too! I was absolutely astonished! Sickened even!</div><div= class=3D"gmail_extra">It was 100 times worse when I was standing on that b= loody stage looking at 100 little glowing apple logo&#39;s on the backs of = everyone&#39;s screens, twice!</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I did manage to resist the urge for public (and = filmed) comment, it took every bit of restraint I had though :P</div><div c= lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">That said, I&#39;= m not so exclusive to not support their platform in my software. And they d= o have a good appstore, which is viable for indy&#39;s.</div> </div> --047d7b47202c5426f504ed6d3a54--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e0160b3dc64046d04ed6d3ea4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 01:39, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 On 2013-12-13 15:50, Manu wrote:

  Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just
 one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)
 I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't
 need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be
 wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.

No need for an Objective-C file. The Objective-C methods can be accessed through the C functions available in the Objective-C runtime from D. Although, as been mentioned many times before, that's verbose and cumbersome. Both are ugly solutions, don't know which is the least ugly.

Maybe one day we'll get extern(Obj-C), that'll be an exciting day :) --089e0160b3dc64046d04ed6d3ea4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 01:39, Jacob Carlborg <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail= to:doob me.com" target=3D"_blank">doob me.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c= cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On 2013-12-13 15:50, Manu wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Really? Everything I&#39;ve ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just<= br> one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)<br> I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn&#39;t<= br> need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be<br> wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> No need for an Objective-C file. The Objective-C methods can be accessed th= rough the C functions available in the Objective-C runtime from D. Although= , as been mentioned many times before, that&#39;s verbose and cumbersome. B= oth are ugly solutions, don&#39;t know which is the least ugly.</blockquote=

be an exciting day :)</div></div></div></div> --089e0160b3dc64046d04ed6d3ea4--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 13/12/13 17:48, Manu wrote:
 Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac... Many of
 my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do their iOS
dev!
 I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary,
 walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)

Do you mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? :-)
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c1d7e0a06c9f04ed6d8ce3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 02:55, Joseph Rushton Wakeling <
joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> wrote:

 On 13/12/13 17:48, Manu wrote:

 Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac...
 Many of
 my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do
 their iOS dev!
 I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary,
 walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)

Do you mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? :-)

Haha, go for it! Fortunately the Apple fanaticism has mellowed out in recent years. There was a time not too long ago where I'd have been mauled in the streets by a fanboy lynch mob of for making claims like that... I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an insatiable lust for Apple products. --001a11c1d7e0a06c9f04ed6d8ce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 02:55, Joseph Rushton Wakeling <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre= f=3D"mailto:joseph.wakeling webdrake.net" target=3D"_blank">joseph.wakeling= webdrake.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 13/12/13 17:48, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> Fuck, I&#39;m yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac...= Many of<br> my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do their = iOS dev!<br> I&#39;d never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary= ,<br> walled-garden wanker&#39;s club if I can help it! ;)<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Do you mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? :-)<br></blockquote><div=
<br></div><div>Haha, go for it!</div><div>Fortunately the Apple fanaticism=

I&#39;d have been mauled in the streets by a=C2=A0fanboy lynch mob of for m= aking claims like that...</div> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;d say there&#39;s a massive bias in games though = since most gamedevs are windows users. Windows is the only real PC based ma= rket for games, and all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, s= o I guess it stands to reason that you don&#39;t meet too many gamedev&#39;= s with an insatiable lust for Apple products.</div> </div></div></div> --001a11c1d7e0a06c9f04ed6d8ce3--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 17:11:23 UTC, Manu wrote:
 I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most 
 gamedevs are
 windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for 
 games, and all
 the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it 
 stands to
 reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an 
 insatiable lust for
 Apple products.

I hope so much for Valve success here, despite all the DRM crap they use :) This industry could have used some small cross-platform earthquake :P
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c1d7e0ec8c9804ed6dd539
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 03:22, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 17:11:23 UTC, Manu wrote:

 I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are
 windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all
 the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to
 reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an insatiable lust for
 Apple products.

I hope so much for Valve success here, despite all the DRM crap they use :) This industry could have used some small cross-platform earthquake :P

Me too. I think Steam is the most exciting platform to emerge in many years. I hope they do well. --001a11c1d7e0ec8c9804ed6dd539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 03:22, Dicebot <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:publ= ic dicebot.lv" target=3D"_blank">public dicebot.lv</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=

<div class=3D"im">On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 17:11:23 UTC, Manu wrote:<= br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I&#39;d say there&#39;s a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs = are<br> windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all<= br> the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to<b= r> reason that you don&#39;t meet too many gamedev&#39;s with an insatiable lu= st for<br> Apple products.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I hope so much for Valve success here, despite all the DRM crap they use :)= This industry could have used some small cross-platform earthquake :P<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Me too. I think Ste= am is the most exciting platform to emerge in many years. I hope they do we= ll.</div></div> --001a11c1d7e0ec8c9804ed6dd539--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <code klickverbot.at> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 03:13:16 UTC, Manu wrote:
 On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin
 Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in 
 hearing
 yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally 
 quoted limit for
 noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even 
 regardless of
 frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is 
 ok, less than
 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious 
 problem for
 recording a tight-sounding performance.

[…] Man, my day job works in quantities of 16ms (1 frame), and I have spent many hours resolving inter-frame synchronisation issues (16ms out of synch). Maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive, but 64ms is extremely noticeable to me. 128ms is like an eternity! Consider, 16th notes at 120bpm (not unusual in metal, I assure you), are only 125ms apart, that more than an entire note out. Around 4ms is what professional recording setups aim for.

Yep, I'd be quite surprised if a professional musician (at least one playing a somewhat percussive instrument) wouldn't notice a 20ms delay, given how obvious small delays are for me when e.g. playing a VST instrument when the audio interface buffer size is too large or a plugin is slowing down the whole system due to delay compensation in the host software. In digital (live) pro audio, latencies in the low single-digit microseconds are usually considered acceptable, with more it depends on the circumstances. Of course, the threshold for being able to play in sync in relation to other musicians is quite a bit higher, and what I've seen some singers do on big opera stages (think e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bregenzer_Festspiele) is nothing short of amazing. David
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Fri, 13 Dec 2013 00:48:38 +1000
schrieb Manu <turkeyman gmail.com>:

 Sure. But you can still work on those things while playing the game, those
 aspects of your performance just won't be accurately recorded or scored.
 My drums (from 'band hero', typically considered the best ones they ever
 made) do report impact sensitivity, although it's not used by the game for
 some reason.
 
 For me, I never played drums, and there's a lot of motor skills required to
 tightly synchronise all those limbs that are perfectly applicable skills I
 developed while playing those games.
 I was so sloppy synchronising hands and feet at first, and my left hand was
 kinda gump, would never keep up with my right hand in rolls, and when i
 tried to synchronise fast double kicks with hand rolls... keeping all those
 motions tight is stuff I wouldn't have if I didn't play those games.

Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a good rock song. But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table, they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum. -- Marco
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 20:25:14 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 18:11, Manu wrote:

 I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most 
 gamedevs are
 windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for 
 games, and
 all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I 
 guess it
 stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an
 insatiable lust for Apple products.

Unfortunately most games suck on Mac OS X. I don't know if they're just badly coded, if it's the drivers or the OpenGL implementation. Many games that work perfectly fine at highest resolution and detail level on Windows is barley playable on low settings on Mac OS X. Only a few games are good on Mac OS X.

Notable is Witcher 2 which you can get for Mac for free if you already have PC version. And I agree it works worse than on Windows.
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 21:44:00 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:
 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to 
 a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to 
 play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s Andrei

Holy Cow! Speechless...
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Meta" <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 21:44:00 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I'll just leave this here: 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

 Andrei

Ha, not bad. How long ago was this?
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Light Keeper" <someone present.time> writes:
On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 23:38:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 12/13/13 3:06 PM, Meta wrote:
 Ha, not bad. How long ago was this?

2009. Andrei

"Uploaded on May 19, 2008" They are among us...
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:44:01 -0800
schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>:

 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s Andrei

*Seriously*? That's really you. What a strange beat. The vocals were way to quiet/shy. Other than that great performance. :D You know, it is very surprising to see people you know from "D" do things not related to programming, including writing books about it or teaching it. I guess that's why many forums have an off topic section where people can introduce themselves or just talk about drumming or UFOs. Take Jacob Carlborg for example. I thought he is a dead serious guy who writes a serialization library and would not be drumming on his desk till the paint is gone, because he's just too serious to be moved by music. Keep telling stories guys! -- Marco
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c30600be7da504ed7598f6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 07:44, Andrei Alexandrescu <
SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

  Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

Haha awesome. I have to say, I really didn't see that coming! :) --001a11c30600be7da504ed7598f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 07:44, Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= "mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org" target=3D"_blank">SeeWebsiteForEmail= erdani.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On 1= 2/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and<br> especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain<br> crunch to it. I&#39;m worried about my notebook though. I hope the<br> hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can&#39;t keep calm to a<br> good rock song.<br> But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,<br> they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how<br> one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play<br> different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.<br> </blockquote> <br> I&#39;ve been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it&#39;s= <br> called) has been wear done.<br> </blockquote> <br></div></div> I&#39;ll just leave this here: <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D= TNn3pJKaV2s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?<u></u>v=3DTNn3= pJKaV2s</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Haha awesome. I have to say, I = really didn&#39;t see that coming! :)</div> </div></div></div> --001a11c30600be7da504ed7598f6--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--089e01538848ddf7da04ed759e63
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 14 December 2013 06:25, Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 On 2013-12-13 18:11, Manu wrote:

  I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are
 windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and
 all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it
 stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an
 insatiable lust for Apple products.

Unfortunately most games suck on Mac OS X. I don't know if they're just badly coded, if it's the drivers or the OpenGL implementation. Many games that work perfectly fine at highest resolution and detail level on Windows is barley playable on low settings on Mac OS X. Only a few games are good on Mac OS X.

I've done mac ports before. In terms of scheduling though, it always gets barely any time or attention. Bare minimum to get it running, and doesn't help that it's usually being written by a windows programmer working against his will :) --089e01538848ddf7da04ed759e63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 4 December 2013 06:25, Jacob Carlborg <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail= to:doob me.com" target=3D"_blank">doob me.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c= cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im">On 2013-12-13 18:11, Manu wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I&#39;d say there&#39;s a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs = are<br> windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and<br> all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it<br> stands to reason that you don&#39;t meet too many gamedev&#39;s with an<br> insatiable lust for Apple products.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Unfortunately most games suck on Mac OS X. I don&#39;t know if they&#39;re = just badly coded, if it&#39;s the drivers or the OpenGL implementation. Man= y games that work perfectly fine at highest resolution and detail level on = Windows is barley playable on low settings on Mac OS X. Only a few games ar= e good on Mac OS X.</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve done mac ports before. In terms of scheduling = though, it always gets barely any time or attention.</div><div>Bare minimum= to get it running, and doesn&#39;t help that it&#39;s usually being writte= n by a windows programmer working against his will :)</div> </div></div></div> --089e01538848ddf7da04ed759e63--
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:
 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit 
 that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years 
 ago. Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, 
 and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument 
 skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely 
 fucked up the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented 
 tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across 
 literally 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's 
 if you want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 
 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor 
 for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but 
 then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went 
 into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, 
 with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be 
 interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more 
 motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio 
 processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications 
 processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort 
 of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that 
 sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large 
 scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time 
 to time.

Have you considered Step mania and Fret on fire ? (Huge fan of musical games here too)
Dec 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
--047d7bdc99b2a5e6dc04ed7c0264
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Dec 14, 2013 8:15 AM, "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" <
joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> wrote:
 On 13/12/13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

How many drummers is the DConf band going to have? :-D

Well we need at least two if we want to do a King Crimson cover. ;) Regards -- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0'; --047d7bdc99b2a5e6dc04ed7c0264 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p><br> On Dec 14, 2013 8:15 AM, &quot;Joseph Rushton Wakeling&quot; &lt;<a href=3D= "mailto:joseph.wakeling webdrake.net">joseph.wakeling webdrake.net</a>&gt; = wrote:<br> &gt;<br> &gt; On 13/12/13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt; On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools = and<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain<= br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; crunch to it. I&#39;m worried about my notebook though. I = hope the<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can&#39;t keep = calm to a<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; good rock song.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar tabl= e,<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder h= ow<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to= play<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or = what it&#39;s<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; called) has been wear done.<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt; I&#39;ll just leave this here: <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/w= atch?v=3DTNn3pJKaV2s">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTNn3pJKaV2s</a><br> &gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt; How many drummers is the DConf band going to have? :-D<br> &gt;</p> <p>Well we need at least two if we want to do a King Crimson cover.=A0 ;)</= p> <p>Regards<br> -- <br> Iain Buclaw</p> <p>*(p &lt; e ? p++ : p) =3D (c &amp; 0x0f) + &#39;0&#39;;</p> --047d7bdc99b2a5e6dc04ed7c0264--
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
--001a1132e8e447816504ed7c090b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Dec 14, 2013 10:26 AM, "Iain Buclaw" <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> wrote:
 On Dec 14, 2013 8:15 AM, "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" <

 On 13/12/13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

 Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
 especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
 crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
 hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
 good rock song.
 But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
 they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
 one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
 different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

I'll just leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNn3pJKaV2s

How many drummers is the DConf band going to have? :-D

Well we need at least two if we want to do a King Crimson cover. ;)

And as well as a drum kit, we could have people on specific percussive instruments - djembe, anyone? :) --001a1132e8e447816504ed7c090b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p><br> On Dec 14, 2013 10:26 AM, &quot;Iain Buclaw&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibu= claw gdcproject.org">ibuclaw gdcproject.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt; On Dec 14, 2013 8:15 AM, &quot;Joseph Rushton Wakeling&quot; &lt;<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:joseph.wakeling webdrake.net">joseph.wakeling webdrake.net</a>= &gt; wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; On 13/12/13 22:44, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; On 12/13/13 12:17 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, st= ools and<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a cer= tain<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; crunch to it. I&#39;m worried about my notebook thoug= h. I hope the<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can&#39;t = keep calm to a<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; good rock song.<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar= table,<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; they gotta show me that there is more to it and I won= der how<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the fe= et to play<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum= .<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve been drumming so much on my desk that the finish= (or what it&#39;s<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; called) has been wear done.<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;ll just leave this here: <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.= com/watch?v=3DTNn3pJKaV2s">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTNn3pJKaV2s</a>= <br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt; &gt; How many drummers is the DConf band going to have? :-D<br> &gt; &gt;<br> &gt;<br> &gt; Well we need at least two if we want to do a King Crimson cover.=A0 ;)= <br> &gt;</p> <p>And as well as a drum kit, we could have people on specific percussive i= nstruments - djembe, anyone?=A0 :)</p> --001a1132e8e447816504ed7c090b--
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
--001a11c30ce22712c604ed7c9a37
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Yeah, both have come up earlier in this thread.

I used to contribute to step mania 10-12 years ago. I did the Xbox port,
among other details. It's a project for a different time. It's not as
extensible as it could be.

FoF... well... it's written in python. I'll leave it at that ;)
I'd say fof is pretty terrible...
On 14 Dec 2013 17:45, "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:

 So, I'm a massive fan of music games. I'll shamefully admit that I was
 tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago.
 Recently,
 it's Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

 I quite like the band ensemble games, they're good party games, and great
 rhythm practise that's actually applicable to real instrument skills too.

 The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up
 the
 GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It's
 annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally
 10
 or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc's if you
 want
 to play the songs you like.

 I've been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I
 started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and
 I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when
 they announced those games they stole my thunder and it went into
 hibernation.

 I'm very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with clean
 code, in D).
 Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested
 in joining a side project like this? It's a lot more motivating, and much
 more fun to work in a small team.

 It's an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,
 super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,
 animation, UI and presentation.

 I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project
 lead of people are interested, but haven't tried to write that sort of
 software before.

 It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and
 performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.

Have you considered Step mania and Fret on fire ? (Huge fan of musical games here too)

--001a11c30ce22712c604ed7c9a37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">Yeah, both have come up earlier in this thread.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">I used to contribute to step mania 10-12 years ago. I did th= e Xbox port, among other details. It&#39;s a project for a different time. = It&#39;s not as extensible as it could be.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">FoF... well... it&#39;s written in python. I&#39;ll leave it= at that ;)<br> I&#39;d say fof is pretty terrible...</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 Dec 2013 17:45, &quot;deadalnix&quot; &lt;= <a href=3D"mailto:deadalnix gmail.com">deadalnix gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b= r type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Thursday, 12 December 2013 at 10:43:24 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, I&#39;m a massive fan of music games. I&#39;ll shamefully admit that I = was<br> tragically addicted to Dance Dance Revolution about 10 years ago. Recently,= <br> it&#39;s Guitar Hero and Rock Band.<br> <br> I quite like the band ensemble games, they&#39;re good party games, and gre= at<br> rhythm practise that&#39;s actually applicable to real instrument skills to= o.<br> <br> The problem is though, that Neversoft and Harmonix completely fucked up the= <br> GH and RB franchises. Licensing problems, fragmented tracklists. It&#39;s<b= r> annoying that all the songs you want to play are spread across literally 10= <br> or so different games, and you need to constantly change disc&#39;s if you = want<br> to play the songs you like.<br> <br> I&#39;ve been meaning to kick off a guitar hero clone since GH2 came out. I= <br> started one years ago as a fork of my Guitar Hero song editor for PS2, and<= br> I added support for drums before GH4 or RB were conceived, but then when<br=

hibernation.<br> <br> I&#39;m very keen to resurrect the project (well, start a new one, with cle= an<br> code, in D).<br> Are there any music game nerds hanging around here who would be interested<= br> in joining a side project like this? It&#39;s a lot more motivating, and mu= ch<br> more fun to work in a small team.<br> <br> It&#39;s an interesting union of skills; rendering, audio processing,<br> super-low-latency synchronisation, mini and communications processing,<br> animation, UI and presentation.<br> <br> I have done all this stuff commercially, so I can act as a sort of project<= br> lead of people are interested, but haven&#39;t tried to write that sort of<= br> software before.<br> <br> It also seems like a good excuse to kick off a fairly large scale and<br> performance intensive D project, which I like to do from time to time.<br> </blockquote> <br> Have you considered Step mania and Fret on fire ? (Huge fan of musical game= s here too)<br> </blockquote></div> --001a11c30ce22712c604ed7c9a37--
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Fri, 13 Dec 2013 21:25:13 +0100
schrieb Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com>:

 Unfortunately most games suck on Mac OS X. I don't know if they're just=20
 badly coded, if it's the drivers or the OpenGL implementation. Many=20
 games that work perfectly fine at highest resolution and detail level on=

 Windows is barley playable on low settings on Mac OS X. Only a few games=

 are good on Mac OS X.

Read about Valve's port of Left 4 Dead 2 here: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/ They say their Linux port ran at 6 FPS before they started optimizing. But it was also in part due to a bad OpenGL implementation. (I remember even Doom 3 running at 2 FPS on my previous PC until the drivers were updated. -.-) Anyways here is an excerpt: "[=E2=80=A6] Running Left 4 Dead 2 on Windows 7 with Direct3D drivers, we get 270.6 FPS as a baseline. The data is generated from an internal test case. When we started with Linux, the initial version we got up and running was at 6 FPS. This is typical of an initial successful port to a new platform. Performance improvements fall into several categories: * Modifying our game to work better with the kernel * Modifying our game to work better with OpenGL * Optimizing the graphics driver An example of the first category would be changing our memory allocator to use more appropriate Linux functions. This was achieved by implementing the Source engine small block heap to work under Linux. The second category would include reducing overhead in calling OpenGL, and extending our renderer with new interfaces for better encapsulation of OpenGL and Direct3D. [=E2=80=A6]" --=20 Marco
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 14/12/13 14:23, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2013-12-14 11:28, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 And as well as a drum kit, we could have people on specific percussive
 instruments - djembe, anyone?  :)

I always liked the guy playing percussion in the back of many concerts with Eric Clapton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICpxgxThG7s - 2:50, 5:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6R-ZOuMjY - 5:32

Ray Cooper. Who has played with just about everybody, on everything ... :-)
Dec 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply Jerry <jlquinn optonline.net> writes:
Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:

 On 13 December 2013 19:31, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:

 I've experienced the same slowing effect I mentioned before in this context
 too.
 Have you ever trying playing with a delay AND an uncomfortably high latency?
 Since you're playing with a delay, you're effectively playing against yourself
 from a couple 100ms ago. If you play when you hear yourself, but there's an
 effective latency on that note trigger, it will compound that latency, and
 you'll drift towards a slower tempo as you play.
 It's so weird when I feel myself do it, but it's awfully hard to control (I
 don't have mates to play music with... I play a lot with a delay/looper).

One of the worst examples of this I've heard of was pipe organs in a very large church. The organist console sits at the opposite end of the church from the pipes, perhaps 100 feet away from some pipes, leading to extremely large delays. I read one account where low notes had a 300ms delay from pressing the pedal. Jerry
Dec 17 2013
parent "Mike James" <foo bar.com> writes:
"Jerry" <jlquinn optonline.net> wrote in message 
news:87r49bzawu.fsf optonline.net...
 Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:

 On 13 December 2013 19:31, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> 
 wrote:

 I've experienced the same slowing effect I mentioned before in this 
 context
 too.
 Have you ever trying playing with a delay AND an uncomfortably high 
 latency?
 Since you're playing with a delay, you're effectively playing against 
 yourself
 from a couple 100ms ago. If you play when you hear yourself, but there's 
 an
 effective latency on that note trigger, it will compound that latency, 
 and
 you'll drift towards a slower tempo as you play.
 It's so weird when I feel myself do it, but it's awfully hard to control 
 (I
 don't have mates to play music with... I play a lot with a delay/looper).

One of the worst examples of this I've heard of was pipe organs in a very large church. The organist console sits at the opposite end of the church from the pipes, perhaps 100 feet away from some pipes, leading to extremely large delays. I read one account where low notes had a 300ms delay from pressing the pedal. Jerry

Yeh - I had a friend who restored and played theatre organs. He said you had to play to the sheet music and completely ignore the sound. -=mike=-
Dec 18 2013