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digitalmars.D - Goodbye

reply Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.
Oct 12 2009
next sibling parent reply Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Eveyrone knows you'll be peeking the newsgroup anyway. :-P
Oct 12 2009
parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Ary Borenszweig" <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote in message 
news:hb02kk$259r$1 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Eveyrone knows you'll be peeking the newsgroup anyway. :-P

I've removed my mailing list subscriptions. I'll respond a couple times on this thread and that's it. I'm done having my blood pressure raised to dangerous levels every time I check my email.
Oct 12 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.
Oct 12 2009
parent reply Nick B <nickB gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ? Nick B
Oct 12 2009
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Nick B wrote:
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

I confess I have the same question. I mean, I do think I behaved like a drama queen, but the goodbye beat me to the punch! Why the agitation? Andrei
Oct 12 2009
prev sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Nick B" <nickB gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:hb03jf$24de$2 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

Hm, could it be years of constant, repeated disappointment with the leadership? The utter lack of community input on many important features? The antiquated, closed development model? Or maybe just the shitty toolchain, shitty rift between "standard" libraries, and shitty third-party libraries? But what's really been chafing my ass for the past year or so has been Andrei and his astronomical ego. This is the post that broke *this* camel's back: http://digg.com/d3170vV You might also be interested in these self-written bios by a man who might as well describe himself as the goddamn savior of modern programming practice. http://pastie.org/652008 http://pastie.org/private/iyj51x5gjjr3qp6ipatta I can't, in good conscience, support a language that has someone like this at the wheel. Sorry.
Oct 12 2009
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Nick B" <nickB gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:hb03jf$24de$2 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

Hm, could it be years of constant, repeated disappointment with the leadership? The utter lack of community input on many important features? The antiquated, closed development model? Or maybe just the shitty toolchain, shitty rift between "standard" libraries, and shitty third-party libraries? But what's really been chafing my ass for the past year or so has been Andrei and his astronomical ego. This is the post that broke *this* camel's back: http://digg.com/d3170vV

I have explained to you that you misunderstood the situation.
 You might also be interested in these self-written bios by a man who might 
 as well describe himself as the goddamn savior of modern programming 
 practice.
 http://pastie.org/652008
 http://pastie.org/private/iyj51x5gjjr3qp6ipatta

Neither of these two blurbs were written by me or by a friend of mine. The first I know nothing about. The second was written by my publisher. Andrei
Oct 12 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick B <nickB gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Nick B" <nickB gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:hb03jf$24de$2 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

Hm, could it be years of constant, repeated disappointment with the leadership? The utter lack of community input on many important features? The antiquated, closed development model? Or maybe just the shitty toolchain, shitty rift between "standard" libraries, and shitty third-party libraries? But what's really been chafing my ass for the past year or so has been Andrei and his astronomical ego. This is the post that broke *this* camel's back: http://digg.com/d3170vV You might also be interested in these self-written bios by a man who might as well describe himself as the goddamn savior of modern programming practice. http://pastie.org/652008 http://pastie.org/private/iyj51x5gjjr3qp6ipatta I can't, in good conscience, support a language that has someone like this at the wheel. Sorry.

Oct 12 2009
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:hb04m4$2a9l$1 digitalmars.com...
 "Nick B" <nickB gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:hb03jf$24de$2 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

Hm, could it be years of constant, repeated disappointment with the leadership? The utter lack of community input on many important features? The antiquated, closed development model? Or maybe just the shitty toolchain, shitty rift between "standard" libraries, and shitty third-party libraries?

Anyone here shold be well aware there's been nothing but improvement on those fronts. And TDPL is a major key in further improvement.
 But what's really been chafing my ass for the past year or so has been 
 Andrei and his astronomical ego. This is the post that broke *this* 
 camel's back:
 http://digg.com/d3170vV

You're really overreacting to that. TDPL is *extemely* important to D as a whole, not just to Andrei. And, no Walter-bashing intended, but the focus on random things like a machine-readable ddoc that provides a minimal benefit in lieu of a little bit more on the book was certainly worthy of a "Now wait just a minute here" message.
 You might also be interested in these self-written bios by a man who might 
 as well describe himself as the goddamn savior of modern programming 
 practice.
 http://pastie.org/652008
 http://pastie.org/private/iyj51x5gjjr3qp6ipatta

Bios usually are self-written (how would the publisher know the author's strengths better and be able to write about it better than the author themself?), and the whole point of them is to make the person look good to help sell a book (or whatever else). They're mini-resume's: the whole point is for it to be a sales-sheet, so yea, of course it's going too look like that. What do you expect? "Author Andrei is a mediocre programmer we picked up off some random street in Boise." Besides, if there are any programmers who have good reason to have an big ego (Which I certainly haven't seen in Andrei), then Andrei would certainly be one of them. And that's praise Andrei *didn't* write himself ;)
 I can't, in good conscience, support a language that has someone like this 
 at the wheel. Sorry.

Speaking of drama queens... ;)
Oct 12 2009
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Bios usually are self-written (how would the publisher know the author's 
 strengths better and be able to write about it better than the author 
 themself?), and the whole point of them is to make the person look good to 
 help sell a book (or whatever else). They're mini-resume's: the whole point 
 is for it to be a sales-sheet, so yea, of course it's going too look like 
 that. What do you expect? "Author Andrei is a mediocre programmer we picked 
 up off some random street in Boise."

The fact is, I recruited Andrei when I spotted him at a freeway off-ramp holding a cardboard sign "will code for food."
 Besides, if there are any programmers who have good reason to have an big 
 ego (Which I certainly haven't seen in Andrei), then Andrei would certainly 
 be one of them. And that's praise Andrei *didn't* write himself ;)

When I went to the ACCU conference last spring, they had a vendor room set up where people could sell stuff. One was a bookseller who was selling programming books. Prominently displayed was Andrei's "Modern C++ Design". This was published in 2001, 8 years ago. 8 years is an ETERNITY in this business, and for a bookseller to not only keep it in stock, but find it worthwhile to lug a box of them on his back to a conference along with a few handpicked other books speaks volumes about its quality.
Oct 12 2009
parent "AJ" <aj nospam.net> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Bios usually are self-written (how would the publisher know the
 author's strengths better and be able to write about it better than
 the author themself?), and the whole point of them is to make the
 person look good to help sell a book (or whatever else). They're
 mini-resume's: the whole point is for it to be a sales-sheet, so
 yea, of course it's going too look like that. What do you expect?
 "Author Andrei is a mediocre programmer we picked up off some random
 street in Boise."

The fact is, I recruited Andrei when I spotted him at a freeway off-ramp holding a cardboard sign "will code for food."
 Besides, if there are any programmers who have good reason to have
 an big ego (Which I certainly haven't seen in Andrei), then Andrei
 would certainly be one of them. And that's praise Andrei *didn't*
 write himself ;)

When I went to the ACCU conference last spring, they had a vendor room set up where people could sell stuff. One was a bookseller who was selling programming books. Prominently displayed was Andrei's "Modern C++ Design". This was published in 2001, 8 years ago. 8 years is an ETERNITY in this business, and for a bookseller to not only keep it in stock, but find it worthwhile to lug a box of them on his back to a conference along with a few handpicked other books speaks volumes about its quality.

Did you realize you stuck your foot in your mouth the second you posted that? Now you are obligated to prove how "book quality" relates to your theorem. (Not "obligated", but for expediency in replying to the post). "Quality" is a curriculum (at least). Did you use the word abrashly?
Oct 16 2009
prev sibling parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/10/2009 23:27, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley"<kb3ctd2 yahoo.com>  wrote in message
 news:hb04m4$2a9l$1 digitalmars.com...
 "Nick B"<nickB gmail.com>  wrote in message
 news:hb03jf$24de$2 digitalmars.com...
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Jarrett Billingsley"<jarrett.billingsley gmail.com>  wrote in message
 news:mailman.175.1255377931.20261.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Just to clarify, yes, I will still maintain my current projects. But as far as D and its development goes, I am well and truly finished. You do your thing, Andrei. Have fun.

you objecting to ?

Hm, could it be years of constant, repeated disappointment with the leadership? The utter lack of community input on many important features? The antiquated, closed development model? Or maybe just the shitty toolchain, shitty rift between "standard" libraries, and shitty third-party libraries?

Anyone here shold be well aware there's been nothing but improvement on those fronts. And TDPL is a major key in further improvement.
 But what's really been chafing my ass for the past year or so has been
 Andrei and his astronomical ego. This is the post that broke *this*
 camel's back:
 http://digg.com/d3170vV

You're really overreacting to that. TDPL is *extemely* important to D as a whole, not just to Andrei. And, no Walter-bashing intended, but the focus on random things like a machine-readable ddoc that provides a minimal benefit in lieu of a little bit more on the book was certainly worthy of a "Now wait just a minute here" message.

a "Let's focus on more important stuff" message was needed *BUT* the way that message was worded is appalling. ego has nothing to do with being smart. you can be extremely smart without getting on people's nerves all the time.
 You might also be interested in these self-written bios by a man who might
 as well describe himself as the goddamn savior of modern programming
 practice.
 http://pastie.org/652008
 http://pastie.org/private/iyj51x5gjjr3qp6ipatta

Bios usually are self-written (how would the publisher know the author's strengths better and be able to write about it better than the author themself?), and the whole point of them is to make the person look good to help sell a book (or whatever else). They're mini-resume's: the whole point is for it to be a sales-sheet, so yea, of course it's going too look like that. What do you expect? "Author Andrei is a mediocre programmer we picked up off some random street in Boise." Besides, if there are any programmers who have good reason to have an big ego (Which I certainly haven't seen in Andrei), then Andrei would certainly be one of them. And that's praise Andrei *didn't* write himself ;)
 I can't, in good conscience, support a language that has someone like this
 at the wheel. Sorry.

Speaking of drama queens... ;)

Oct 12 2009
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
Yigal Chripun wrote

 ego has nothing to do with being smart.
 you can be extremely smart without getting on people's nerves all the 
 time.

A smart person can choose when to get on somebody's nerves ;)
Oct 13 2009
parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
On 13/10/2009 20:24, Saaa wrote:
 Yigal Chripun wrote

 ego has nothing to do with being smart.
 you can be extremely smart without getting on people's nerves all the
 time.

A smart person can choose when to get on somebody's nerves ;)

The bible says about Noah that he was the most just and moral person in his generation. There are two opposed interpretations for this: positive: his generation was so morally corrupt that managing to be moral in such a harsh environment is a virtue. negative: Noah is moral relative to his generation which doesn't mean a lot on an absolute scale since his generation was so corrupt. not all men are born equal so we all choose from the above points of view. you can either decrease the value of others to feel good about yourself or you can strive to improve yourself and therefore increase your value in the eyes of others. the latter is harder but it's the only beneficial way for mankind. obviously, being egotistical belongs to the former. consider this: when a person asks a question on the NG (might be extremly stupid question) the (smart) person to reply can either give a snide remark and thereby decrease the size of this community by one or give constructive information, relevant links, etc and gain one more D programmer. I'd say that the latter is the smart choice. we have a saying in Hebrew which translates roughly as: a smart man knows how to avoid a pitfall which a knowledgeable person can figure a way out of.
Oct 13 2009
next sibling parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
"Yigal Chripun" <yigal100 gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:hb2u2n$2if8$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 13/10/2009 20:24, Saaa wrote:
 Yigal Chripun wrote

 ego has nothing to do with being smart.
 you can be extremely smart without getting on people's nerves all the
 time.

A smart person can choose when to get on somebody's nerves ;)

The bible says about Noah that he was the most just and moral person in his generation. There are two opposed interpretations for this: positive: his generation was so morally corrupt that managing to be moral in such a harsh environment is a virtue. negative: Noah is moral relative to his generation which doesn't mean a lot on an absolute scale since his generation was so corrupt. not all men are born equal so we all choose from the above points of view. you can either decrease the value of others to feel good about yourself or you can strive to improve yourself and therefore increase your value in the eyes of others. the latter is harder but it's the only beneficial way for mankind. obviously, being egotistical belongs to the former. consider this: when a person asks a question on the NG (might be extremly stupid question) the (smart) person to reply can either give a snide remark and thereby decrease the size of this community by one or give constructive information, relevant links, etc and gain one more D programmer. I'd say that the latter is the smart choice. we have a saying in Hebrew which translates roughly as: a smart man knows how to avoid a pitfall which a knowledgeable person can figure a way out of.

Getting on somebody's nerves doesn't necessarily serve as a way to feel better about oneself. Also, improving oneself doesn't necessarily mean others will see this improvement. And, improving oneself is sometimes easier than making somebody else feel bad about her/his self. A snide remark doesn't always mean the other person will leave. The Hebrew saying is mostly about the difference between being smart and being intelligent; a tad unrelated. The important word in my sentence was "can": being able to choose the emotion in which you'd like to react. Learning how Not to let your blood boil when expecting a snide remark is another good ability, I think.
Oct 13 2009
parent reply Chris Nicholson-Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
Saaa wrote:
 "Yigal Chripun" <yigal100 gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:hb2u2n$2if8$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 13/10/2009 20:24, Saaa wrote:
 Yigal Chripun wrote

 ego has nothing to do with being smart.
 you can be extremely smart without getting on people's nerves all the
 time.


his generation. There are two opposed interpretations for this: positive: his generation was so morally corrupt that managing to be moral in such a harsh environment is a virtue. negative: Noah is moral relative to his generation which doesn't mean a lot on an absolute scale since his generation was so corrupt. not all men are born equal so we all choose from the above points of view. you can either decrease the value of others to feel good about yourself or you can strive to improve yourself and therefore increase your value in the eyes of others. the latter is harder but it's the only beneficial way for mankind. obviously, being egotistical belongs to the former. consider this: when a person asks a question on the NG (might be extremly stupid question) the (smart) person to reply can either give a snide remark and thereby decrease the size of this community by one or give constructive information, relevant links, etc and gain one more D programmer. I'd say that the latter is the smart choice. we have a saying in Hebrew which translates roughly as: a smart man knows how to avoid a pitfall which a knowledgeable person can figure a way out of.

Getting on somebody's nerves doesn't necessarily serve as a way to feel better about oneself. Also, improving oneself doesn't necessarily mean others will see this improvement. And, improving oneself is sometimes easier than making somebody else feel bad about her/his self. A snide remark doesn't always mean the other person will leave. The Hebrew saying is mostly about the difference between being smart and being intelligent; a tad unrelated. The important word in my sentence was "can": being able to choose the emotion in which you'd like to react. Learning how Not to let your blood boil when expecting a snide remark is another good ability, I think.

The most important thing is remembering that black text on a white screen carries absolutely no emotional information whatsoever, in either direction, in any case. The exception that proves the rule, of course, is ZOMG NERD RAGE ALLCAPS. Otherwise, there's nothing to go on.
Oct 14 2009
next sibling parent "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote
 The most important thing is remembering that black text on a white screen 
 carries absolutely no emotional information whatsoever, in either 
 direction, in any case.  The exception that proves the rule, of course, is 
 ZOMG NERD RAGE ALLCAPS.  Otherwise, there's nothing to go on.

Oct 14 2009
prev sibling parent reply "AJ" <aj nospam.net> writes:
Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote:

 The most important thing is remembering that black text on a white
 screen carries absolutely no emotional information whatsoever, in
 either direction, in any case.

<-- "panic"! THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE! DANGER, DANGER, Will Robinson!
Oct 16 2009
parent Chris Nicholson-Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
AJ wrote:
 Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote:
 
 The most important thing is remembering that black text on a white
 screen carries absolutely no emotional information whatsoever, in
 either direction, in any case.

<-- "panic"! THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE! DANGER, DANGER, Will Robinson!

Also remember: Red text on a blue screen carries all the ill intentions in the world -- not to mention eye strain. As such, any web designer or UI designer known to be implementing this travesty is to be shot on sight. -- Chris Nicholson-Sauls
Oct 17 2009
prev sibling parent "AJ" <aj nospam.net> writes:
Yigal Chripun wrote:

 not all men are born equal 

Oct 16 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Relax. Walter and I are in touch and always agree in advance about the features that need to be present in the language by the time the book is in print. It's not like I come up with stuff and then ask him to implement it. It's always his decision, and I'd be hard pressed to find a major topic on which we couldn't find agreement. My concern is only one regarding focus: a lot of important things must be done in short order. Probably my message shouldn't have gone to the newsgroup (because people on the newsgroup lack the necessary context), and I owe apologies to Walter for it being too harsh. Andrei
Oct 12 2009
parent "AJ" <aj nospam.net> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Relax. Walter and I are in touch and always agree in advance about the features that need to be present in the language by the time the book is in print. It's not like I come up with stuff

Oh, you write books, go figure! "I would have never guessed that!".
Oct 16 2009
prev sibling parent Piotrek <starpit tlen.pl> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley pisze:
 I'm done. After seeing how Andrei is behaving, I really am done. Bye.

Although i see your point it would be a real pity to go away because of such a reason. Don't you find any excuse for him? I believe he is working hard for community. Can we blame anyone for looking forward reward of his job. Only toughest heroes work for no reward. Cheers Jarret and thanks for all you done so far. Piortek
Oct 12 2009