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digitalmars.D - From the silent community

reply Jordi <jordi rovira.cat> writes:
Hi,

   I have been learning D2 since some months ago and i have started to 
experience with it a little bit, by porting my 3 years old home project 
to it from C++. I already feel imprisoned in C++ because the industry i 
work in (computer games), so i find the experience really refreshing.

   But this is not what i want to speak of. Still a little bit of 
context was necessary before going on, this one being my first post. I 
think i belong to a group of silent D followers who believe this 
language has a lot of potential and keep an eye on it.

   Yes, I think there is some amount of "despotism" in the way it is 
being done, but i don't understand at all how people can come here to 
complain so much. Guys, if you don't like this, move on to another 
language, fork this one, or stay and try to be constructive, submit 
patches, etc. Many things can be done better, but don't forget how much 
you are paying for this (hint, 0) and how much right you have to be 
angry if this people don't do as you say (hint, none).

   I have great hopes for D2, that will be resolved favorable or not 
after the secret concurrency stuff is published and GDC catches up. But 
I feel a little bit sad every time i read some guy hidden behind a silly 
nick trying to impose his will into somebody else's project, or his bad 
mood into other people in these newsgroups.

   I don't want to start one more flamewar thread (i wouldn't care 
though). On the contrary i wanted to write a supportive and encouraging 
message to the D, DMD, GDC and LDC developers.

   Good work!

Jordi
Feb 19 2010
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:09:18 -0500, Jordi <jordi rovira.cat> wrote:

    Yes, I think there is some amount of "despotism" in the way it is  
 being done, but i don't understand at all how people can come here to  
 complain so much. Guys, if you don't like this, move on to another  
 language, fork this one, or stay and try to be constructive, submit  
 patches, etc. Many things can be done better, but don't forget how much  
 you are paying for this (hint, 0) and how much right you have to be  
 angry if this people don't do as you say (hint, none).

Don't take all heated arguments on this news group at face value :) Most people here respect each other's opinions and simply have different opinions on what is better. Especially with Walter calling the shots, it becomes almost necessary to mount a very strong argument. He notoriously resists change until the last possible moment. This is both frustrating and also a very very good thing. I think without this resistance D would have disintegrated into a mass of unusable complexity long ago. There are the perennial complainers that don't add much positive to the discussion, but even they have good points sometimes. I'd hate to ask people to leave the newsgroup because more sets of eyes are better for any product to become as good as it can be! Please, everyone continue to have strong opinions and voice them! Great ideas do not come from silence.
    I have great hopes for D2, that will be resolved favorable or not  
 after the secret concurrency stuff is published and GDC catches up.

I have to address this, please go to http://lists.puremagic.com to view all the "secret" concurrency stuff ;) And phobos discussion. If you want to join the list, simply subscribe! There is no secret here. -Steve
Feb 19 2010
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:09:18 -0500, Jordi <jordi rovira.cat> wrote:
 
    Yes, I think there is some amount of "despotism" in the way it is 
 being done, but i don't understand at all how people can come here to 
 complain so much. Guys, if you don't like this, move on to another 
 language, fork this one, or stay and try to be constructive, submit 
 patches, etc. Many things can be done better, but don't forget how 
 much you are paying for this (hint, 0) and how much right you have to 
 be angry if this people don't do as you say (hint, none).

Don't take all heated arguments on this news group at face value :) Most people here respect each other's opinions and simply have different opinions on what is better. Especially with Walter calling the shots, it becomes almost necessary to mount a very strong argument. He notoriously resists change until the last possible moment. This is both frustrating and also a very very good thing. I think without this resistance D would have disintegrated into a mass of unusable complexity long ago. There are the perennial complainers that don't add much positive to the discussion, but even they have good points sometimes. I'd hate to ask people to leave the newsgroup because more sets of eyes are better for any product to become as good as it can be! Please, everyone continue to have strong opinions and voice them! Great ideas do not come from silence.

Agreed. In particular, "good" silence creates the issue that a small vocal group can make their opinion appear much more consensual than it really is. I recall the case with property: it seemed like everybody and their dog was pro- property, but it turned out that at the poll a silent majority thought otherwise. I think that phenomenon has a name in politics (large but not organized majority with interests hurt by a small, focused, and motivated group). Well fortunately that's not the case for us :o).
    I have great hopes for D2, that will be resolved favorable or not 
 after the secret concurrency stuff is published and GDC catches up.

I have to address this, please go to http://lists.puremagic.com to view all the "secret" concurrency stuff ;) And phobos discussion. If you want to join the list, simply subscribe! There is no secret here.

Sorry, I had to remove the PDF when I sent the manuscript. Anyone who has it, please do not share. The book will be out there soon. BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon. I guess they liked what they saw :o). Andrei
Feb 19 2010
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, 
 looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon. I 
 guess they liked what they saw :o).

That's awesome!
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I think that phenomenon has a name in politics (large but not organized 
 majority with interests hurt by a small, focused, and motivated group). 

Nixon coined the phrase "silent majority."
Feb 19 2010
parent Mike James <foo bar.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I think that phenomenon has a name in politics (large but not organized 
 majority with interests hurt by a small, focused, and motivated group). 

Nixon coined the phrase "silent majority."

And we haven't got him to kick around any more - shame really...
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
news:hlmg1r$2dps$1 digitalmars.com...
 BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, 
 looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon.

?!?!? Are you kidding me? Is that last one a real device? (...Or am I just a bit dense today to notice it was a joke?) BTW, if you do that PDF version, it won't be married to those DRM-mania devices, will it? It'd still be viewable on a normal machine?
Feb 19 2010
next sibling parent Mike James <foo bar.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky Wrote:

 "Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
 news:hlmg1r$2dps$1 digitalmars.com...
 BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, 
 looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon.

?!?!? Are you kidding me? Is that last one a real device? (...Or am I just a bit dense today to notice it was a joke?)

Check out http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=b48daa84-7404-447c-a018-b0dd7e38f9b2 -=mike=-
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
 news:hlmg1r$2dps$1 digitalmars.com...
 BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, 
 looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon.

?!?!? Are you kidding me? Is that last one a real device? (...Or am I just a bit dense today to notice it was a joke?)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/01/women-mock-the-ipad-calling-it-itampon.html
 BTW, if you do that PDF version, it won't be married to those DRM-mania 
 devices, will it? It'd still be viewable on a normal machine? 

No DRM. Andrei
Feb 19 2010
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
news:hln5vf$nhs$1 digitalmars.com...
 Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
 news:hlmg1r$2dps$1 digitalmars.com...
 BTW, in related news: my editor offered a contract for a PDF edition, 
 looking towards Kindle, Sony Reader, and perhaps iPhone and iTampon.

?!?!? Are you kidding me? Is that last one a real device? (...Or am I just a bit dense today to notice it was a joke?)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/01/women-mock-the-ipad-calling-it-itampon.html

Ahh, I see. That's the first I've ever heard of the "iPad".
 BTW, if you do that PDF version, it won't be married to those DRM-mania 
 devices, will it? It'd still be viewable on a normal machine?

No DRM.

Great, I'm highly allergic to that. It makes my knee jerk. :)
Feb 20 2010
prev sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I have to address this, please go to http://lists.puremagic.com to 
 view all the "secret" concurrency stuff ;)  And phobos discussion.  If 
 you want to join the list, simply subscribe!  There is no secret here.

Sorry, I had to remove the PDF when I sent the manuscript. Anyone who has it, please do not share. The book will be out there soon.

So am I reading the situation correctly -- the specification for D2 concurrency, being discussed on the list, is in a book form that needs to be purchased? -Jeff
Feb 20 2010
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I have to address this, please go to http://lists.puremagic.com to 
 view all the "secret" concurrency stuff ;)  And phobos discussion.  
 If you want to join the list, simply subscribe!  There is no secret 
 here.

Sorry, I had to remove the PDF when I sent the manuscript. Anyone who has it, please do not share. The book will be out there soon.

So am I reading the situation correctly -- the specification for D2 concurrency, being discussed on the list, is in a book form that needs to be purchased?

The last chapter of the book is my description of D's concurrency, with additional discussion and examples. The library has not been implemented yet. Once it will be implemented, documentation will be obviously available online for free, as for all other aspects of D. Andrei
Feb 20 2010
prev sibling parent Jordi <jordi rovira.cat> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I have to address this, please go to http://lists.puremagic.com to view 
 all the "secret" concurrency stuff ;)  And phobos discussion.  If you 
 want to join the list, simply subscribe!  There is no secret here.

I totally missed this one! One more place to look for D information...
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Jordi,

 Hi,
 

 Yes, I think there is some amount of "despotism" in the way it is
 being done, but i don't understand at all how people can come here to
 complain so much. Guys, if you don't like this, move on to another
 language, fork this one, or stay and try to be constructive, submit
 patches, etc. Many things can be done better, but don't forget how
 much you are paying for this (hint, 0) and how much right you have to
 be angry if this people don't do as you say (hint, none).

If we all agreed on everything, what would be the point in coming here? -- ... <IXOYE><
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:59:39 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Great ideas do not come from silence.

Agreed. In particular, "good" silence creates the issue that a small vocal group can make their opinion appear much more consensual than it really is. I recall the case with property: it seemed like everybody and their dog was pro- property, but it turned out that at the poll a silent majority thought otherwise.

I too thought my dog was pro- property, but it turns out he has trouble expressing himself on the newsgroup. I was disappointed when I put a property in front of him, and he made his feelings clear by sniffing and then peeing on it. All joking aside, this isn't the kind of silence I was talking about (and how dare you imply that property isn't good!). What I mean is people being silent instead of expressing a previously unexplored idea :) The "me too" posts usually come out of the woodwork when a vote is called for. When someone is advocating for my side, I usually hold back until an important point isn't being addressed or an important problem with the opposing view isn't being exploited.
 I think that phenomenon has a name in politics (large but not organized  
 majority with interests hurt by a small, focused, and motivated group).  
 Well fortunately that's not the case for us :o).

I agree. I feel the environment here is mostly positive and brings out good ideas from everyone. -Steve
Feb 19 2010
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jordi" <jordi rovira.cat> wrote in message 
news:hlm9j0$21eh$1 digitalmars.com...
 Hi,

   I have been learning D2 since some months ago and i have started to 
 experience with it a little bit, by porting my 3 years old home project to 
 it from C++. I already feel imprisoned in C++ because the industry i work 
 in (computer games), so i find the experience really refreshing.

Nice to hear. Much of my programming background is in games, and I came over to D after escaping the same games==C++ prison. (Of course, most of my work these days is web, ick! But then again I have developed a lot of pet peeves about what most of the games industry has been doing the last decade, so I suppose I wouldn't be happy there now anyway, so I guess it's just as well :/ )
   I have great hopes for D2, that will be resolved favorable or not after 
 the secret concurrency stuff is published and GDC catches up. But I feel a 
 little bit sad every time i read some guy hidden behind a silly nick 
 trying to impose his will into somebody else's project, or his bad mood 
 into other people in these newsgroups.

I try to impose my will and bad mood *without* using a nickname! (Hell, why would I need to? My name's alrady Nick! Har har! Did I mention I also try to impose my crappy jokes?)
Feb 19 2010
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 Did I mention I also try to impose my crappy jokes?)

Not to worry. We love crappy jokes around here.
Feb 19 2010