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digitalmars.D - Facebook puts more bounties on dlang issues

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related 
issues. There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- 
and LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain Buclaw (what's 
happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the best angle of attack 
regarding LDC issues.

https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language

Now here's where it gets interesting. Facebook would be glad to increase 
the bounty budget if that helps, i.e. if bounties do help bugs get fixed 
and things moving forward.

Although we've seen no change in the general activity, there was little 
improvement in activity on the bugs selected for bounties, although 
quite a few of them aren't difficult to fix.

Here's where you (singular and plural) can help. By working on these 
bugs not only you make a buck, but also push the language state of the 
art forward and entice more involvement from Facebook. (For ethical 
reasons, Walter and I decided to not participate.)

So... have at it! Let's bust these bugs and show the world we're serious.


Andrei
Jan 11 2014
next sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
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On 12 January 2014 10:19, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org
 wrote:

 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related issues.
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- and
 LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain Buclaw (what's
 happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the best angle of attack
 regarding LDC issues.

 https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language

 Now here's where it gets interesting. Facebook would be glad to increase
 the bounty budget if that helps, i.e. if bounties do help bugs get fixed
 and things moving forward.

 Although we've seen no change in the general activity, there was little
 improvement in activity on the bugs selected for bounties, although quite a
 few of them aren't difficult to fix.

 Here's where you (singular and plural) can help. By working on these bugs
 not only you make a buck, but also push the language state of the art
 forward and entice more involvement from Facebook. (For ethical reasons,
 Walter and I decided to not participate.)

 So... have at it! Let's bust these bugs and show the world we're serious.

Perhaps people need some sort of urgency motivator, like higher paying (initially), but time limited bounties ;) Ie, every day the bounty is reduced by 5% or something... If it's not there tomorrow, then you'd better get it done today! Humans are proven to work most effectively when threatened with a strong sense of urgency (it's why the gamedev industry always seems to be in a perpetual state of 'crunching' :/)... --001a11c2a20cdb6aa404efbb1e3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 January 2014 10:19, Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"= mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org" target=3D"_blank">SeeWebsiteForEmail = erdani.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I&#39;ve placed on behalf of Facebook a few = more bounties on D-related issues. There&#39;s a bit of budget (a few hundr= ed only) earmarked for GDC- and LDC-specific stuff. I didn&#39;t hear anyth= ing from Iain Buclaw (what&#39;s happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nac= ke the best angle of attack regarding LDC issues.<br> <br> <a href=3D"https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-langu= age" target=3D"_blank">https://www.bountysource.com/<u></u>trackers/383571-= d-programming-<u></u>language</a><br> <br> Now here&#39;s where it gets interesting. Facebook would be glad to increas= e the bounty budget if that helps, i.e. if bounties do help bugs get fixed = and things moving forward.<br> <br> Although we&#39;ve seen no change in the general activity, there was little= improvement in activity on the bugs selected for bounties, although quite = a few of them aren&#39;t difficult to fix.<br> <br> Here&#39;s where you (singular and plural) can help. By working on these bu= gs not only you make a buck, but also push the language state of the art fo= rward and entice more involvement from Facebook. (For ethical reasons, Walt= er and I decided to not participate.)<br> <br> So... have at it! Let&#39;s bust these bugs and show the world we&#39;re se= rious.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Perhaps people need some sort of urg= ency motivator, like higher paying (initially), but time limited bounties ;= )</div> <div>Ie, every day the bounty is reduced by 5% or something...</div><div>If= it&#39;s not there tomorrow, then you&#39;d better get it done today!</div=
<div><br></div><div>Humans are proven to work most effectively when threat=

ys seems to be in a perpetual state of &#39;crunching&#39; :/)...</div> </div></div></div> --001a11c2a20cdb6aa404efbb1e3d--
Jan 11 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/11/14 7:16 PM, Brian Schott wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 02:04:38 UTC, Manu wrote:
 ...

 Anyway, just some thoughts.

I agree with most of this. I'm spending some of my free time working on some code that helps D development in general but has no bounty on it.

Yah, it's a weird valley to climb out from. The famous original experiment on cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) had people paid more rate a task more negatively. My hope is to convince that the message Facebook is conveying here is much stronger than the actual sums involved; it's an initiation of cooperation and involvement with a community, and it would be awesome to respond in kind. Walter and I chose the bugs and sums involved. The sums were assigned so as to not create animosity; if I'd assigned $1000 on some bug and someone else has worked or had just done a more difficult and important bug, there would be tension. The current sums are nice perks for people who'd be interested in pushing D forward anyway. And I'm telling you: doing great on bountied bugs is one pretty darn good way to push it forward.
 To work on a bug that has a bounty I'd have to:
 1) Get up to speed on something that didn't immediately interest me
 2) NOT do what did interest me

 In the SF bay area, $50 is not a lot of money. It's maybe enough to pay
 the bill for dinner + tip for two people, or enough to fill a small
 car's gasoline tank.

Whoa, wait a minute. You live around here? Let's meet! Will send you email.
 These bounties just seem to be bonuses for people who were going to work
 on those bugs anyways.

YES. But that's just the beginning! Andrei
Jan 11 2014
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 1:07 AM, Francesco Cattoglio wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 04:16:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Walter and I chose the bugs and sums involved. [...]

blocking and critical issues, because otherwise this would really be shooting yourself in the foot. :P

Haven't tried it yet, but it should be easy to decline a bounty and then reallocate it. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/11/14 10:10 PM, Rikki Cattermole wrote:
 +1 on (potentially) Facebook hiring somebody to work on the toolchain in
 some form. Would set a good precedence and showing just how committed
 Facebook is.

Facebook seldom hires for a specific role in Engineering. After a newly hired engineer goes through the six-week bootcamp that familiarizes him/her with Facebook's technologies, projects, and teams, the engineer chooses a team. Conversely, projects often get initiated by engineers. It's a surprisingly bottom-up organization. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:34:38 UTC, Manu wrote:
 Perhaps people need some sort of urgency motivator, like higher 
 paying
 (initially), but time limited bounties ;)
 Ie, every day the bounty is reduced by 5% or something...
 If it's not there tomorrow, then you'd better get it done today!

 Humans are proven to work most effectively when threatened with 
 a strong
 sense of urgency (it's why the gamedev industry always seems to 
 be in a
 perpetual state of 'crunching' :/)...

If you don't fix it soon then someone else will... that should give a sense of urgency :-) (not sure I agree about crunch/urgency making people more effective... but that's a different thread)
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
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On 12 January 2014 10:49, Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>wrote:

 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:34:38 UTC, Manu wrote:

 Perhaps people need some sort of urgency motivator, like higher paying
 (initially), but time limited bounties ;)
 Ie, every day the bounty is reduced by 5% or something...
 If it's not there tomorrow, then you'd better get it done today!

 Humans are proven to work most effectively when threatened with a strong
 sense of urgency (it's why the gamedev industry always seems to be in a
 perpetual state of 'crunching' :/)...

If you don't fix it soon then someone else will... that should give a sense of urgency :-) (not sure I agree about crunch/urgency making people more effective... but that's a different thread)

If it didn't work on some level, it would be adopted as standard practise by at least 1 whole industry. It certainly does work in the short term, but applied long term, it has diminishing, and eventually severe negative returns. People aren't much use when they're burned out and hate their life. Anyway, just a question, how are the values for the bounties calculated? The values assigned make the suggestion that they should all be roughly 1-3 hour tasks (presuming most people here get paid in that ball park, I think typical for skilled comp sci). Psychology when money is involved is very interesting. People here usually contribute because they want to, and no other reason, and on things that interest them. But if they're to consider being motivated to work on something they're not interested in by financial interest alone, why would people take a pay cut to do so? Granted that a middle ground probably exists, but I doubt it's relevant here; this community represents some of the highest idealism in open-source software. So I wonder, a) should the bounty applied be less than an average hourly rate; ie, it shouldn't undermine the open-source incentive, but just give a nudge of incentive to some select issues, or b) should it be more than an average hourly rate (more like contract rates), to offer people fair compensation for the work they're doing. Surely, if it pays more than your day job, then this obviously comes first. I can imagine quite easily why a bounty that's too small wouldn't seem to create any additional pressure on getting bugs fixed; if I make more in an hour at work, then the financial motivation is basically non-existent, and the idealistic nature of open-source might even add negative pressure. I know for me personally, the moment there's a financial figure on the table, my mind immediately starts considering it in terms of time. If it's not a recreational activity, it's work, and I don't work for free. If getting these bugs fixed is a business interest for facebook, then I wonder if the bounties should be set closer to a reasonable contractor pay rate? That's what you'd be paying in the event you hired a contractor to get the work done, and it makes financial sense to any (employed) members of the community who might take the job. If you do look at it that way, I think it would be useful to attach an estimated number of hours to each task. Infact, I think that would be useful regardless... Anyway, just some thoughts. --001a11c1e8b8c11d0c04efbc60f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 January 2014 10:49, Peter Alexander <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail= to:peter.alexander.au gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">peter.alexander.au gmail= .com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:34:38 U= TC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> Perhaps people need some sort of urgency motivator, like higher paying<br> (initially), but time limited bounties ;)<br> Ie, every day the bounty is reduced by 5% or something...<br> If it&#39;s not there tomorrow, then you&#39;d better get it done today!<br=

Humans are proven to work most effectively when threatened with a strong<br=

<br> perpetual state of &#39;crunching&#39; :/)...<br> </blockquote> <br></div> If you don&#39;t fix it soon then someone else will... that should give a s= ense of urgency :-)<br> <br> (not sure I agree about crunch/urgency making people more effective... but = that&#39;s a different thread)<br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">If it didn&#39;t wo= rk on some level, it would be adopted as standard practise by at least 1 wh= ole industry.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It certainly does work in the= short term, but applied long term, it has diminishing, and eventually seve= re negative returns. People aren&#39;t much use when they&#39;re burned out= and hate their life.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Anyway, jus= t a question, how are the values for the bounties calculated?</div><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The values assigned= make the suggestion that they should all be roughly 1-3 hour tasks (presum= ing most people here get paid in that ball park, I think typical for skille= d comp sci).</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Psychology = when money is involved is very interesting. People here usually contribute = because they want to, and no other reason, and on things that interest them= . But if they&#39;re to consider being motivated to work on something they&= #39;re not interested in=C2=A0by financial interest alone, why would people= take a pay cut to do so?</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">Granted that a middle ground probably exists, bu= t I doubt it&#39;s relevant here; this community represents some of the hig= hest idealism in open-source software.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br> </div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">So I wonder,</div><div class=3D"gmail_extr= a">a) should the bounty applied be less than an average hourly rate; ie, it= shouldn&#39;t undermine the open-source incentive, but just give a nudge o= f incentive to some select issues, or</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">b) should it be more than an average hourly rate= (more like contract rates), to offer people fair compensation for the work= they&#39;re doing. Surely, if it pays more than your day job, then this ob= viously comes first.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I can imagi= ne quite easily why a bounty that&#39;s too small wouldn&#39;t seem to crea= te any additional pressure on getting bugs fixed; if I make more in an hour= at work, then the financial motivation is basically non-existent, and the = idealistic nature of open-source might even add negative pressure.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra">I know for me personally, the moment there&#39;s= a financial figure on the table, my mind immediately starts considering it= in terms of time. If it&#39;s not a recreational activity, it&#39;s work, = and I don&#39;t work for free.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">If getting = these bugs fixed is a business interest for facebook, then I wonder if the = bounties should be set closer to a reasonable contractor pay rate?</div><di= v class=3D"gmail_extra"> That&#39;s what you&#39;d be paying in the event you hired a contractor to = get the work done, and it makes financial sense to any (employed) members o= f the community who might take the job.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">If = you do look at it that way, I think it would be useful to attach an estimat= ed number of hours to each task. Infact, I think that would be useful regar= dless...</div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Anyway, jus= t some thoughts.</div></div> --001a11c1e8b8c11d0c04efbc60f1--
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:49:14 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
 (not sure I agree about crunch/urgency making people more 
 effective... but that's a different thread)

Studies has been made on the subject. Long story short, it works on the short term, but is counter productive on the long term.
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Brian Schott" <briancschott gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 02:04:38 UTC, Manu wrote:
 ...

 Anyway, just some thoughts.

I agree with most of this. I'm spending some of my free time working on some code that helps D development in general but has no bounty on it. To work on a bug that has a bounty I'd have to: 1) Get up to speed on something that didn't immediately interest me 2) NOT do what did interest me In the SF bay area, $50 is not a lot of money. It's maybe enough to pay the bill for dinner + tip for two people, or enough to fill a small car's gasoline tank. These bounties just seem to be bonuses for people who were going to work on those bugs anyways.
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
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On 12 January 2014 14:16, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org
 wrote:

 On 1/11/14 7:16 PM, Brian Schott wrote:

 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 02:04:38 UTC, Manu wrote:

 ...

 Anyway, just some thoughts.

I agree with most of this. I'm spending some of my free time working on some code that helps D development in general but has no bounty on it.

Yah, it's a weird valley to climb out from. The famous original experiment on cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) had people paid more rate a task more negatively. My hope is to convince that the message Facebook is conveying here is much stronger than the actual sums involved; it's an initiation of cooperation and involvement with a community, and it would be awesome to respond in kind. Walter and I chose the bugs and sums involved. The sums were assigned so as to not create animosity;

I can certainly appreciate that, and it is a delicate issue, but it really depends how it's framed. For instance, if facebook has a vested interest in D (or any technology), and they need some work done, it's common business practise to hire a contractor and get it done. Companies do this all the time for many reasons. If facebook were to hire a contractor lets say, to do some work on any open-source project, it would follow that the work, while being done in facebook's interest, is then contributed back to the project. This happens in OSS all the time, and it doesn't usually create animosity. I would imagine (although I have no evidence to draw from) that most communities would appreciate the paid contributions to the code regardless of who they paid to do it. What really pisses the community off is when a businesses hires a contractor to do some work and then DOESN'T commit their changes back to the mainline. In a sense, what you're doing here is not just hiring some contractor, but you're giving everyone in the community an equal opportunity to take the job. The criteria required to keep a respectable summed bounty impersonal, is that the task must be in facebook's own business interest. I don't think people in the D community can reasonably take issue past that, and the fact that everyone has an equal opportunity to accept the contract is in some ways a nice bonus. Perhaps you should do a poll, and see what the average sentiment on this matter is? I think most people understand that when a technology becomes backed by a large influential company, it turns out being good for the whole community. Google and Apple both made their fortunes leveraging OSS technology... I wonder how many people in the OSS communities that they leverage are pissed off about it? Are there stories of this sort? I haven't heard any. if I'd assigned $1000 on some bug and someone else has worked or had just
 done a more difficult and important bug, there would be tension. The
 current sums are nice perks for people who'd be interested in pushing D
 forward anyway. And I'm telling you: doing great on bountied bugs is one
 pretty darn good way to push it forward.

Sure, and it is a nice perk, but your comment seemed to be that it hasn't motivated the action you were hoping for from a business interest point of view? To work on a bug that has a bounty I'd have to:
 1) Get up to speed on something that didn't immediately interest me
 2) NOT do what did interest me

 In the SF bay area, $50 is not a lot of money. It's maybe enough to pay
 the bill for dinner + tip for two people, or enough to fill a small
 car's gasoline tank.

Whoa, wait a minute. You live around here? Let's meet! Will send you email. These bounties just seem to be bonuses for people who were going to work
 on those bugs anyways.

YES. But that's just the beginning! Andrei

--047d7b4725a84cf9dd04efbea430 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1= 2 January 2014 14:16, Andrei Alexandrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"= mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org" target=3D"_blank">SeeWebsiteForEmail = erdani.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 1/11/14 7:16 PM, Brian = Schott wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 02:04:38 UTC, Manu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> ...<br> <br> Anyway, just some thoughts.<br> </blockquote> <br> I agree with most of this. I&#39;m spending some of my free time working on= <br> some code that helps D development in general but has no bounty on it.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Yah, it&#39;s a weird valley to climb out from. The famous original experim= ent on cognitive dissonance (<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognit= ive_dissonance" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>Cogni= tive_dissonance</a>) had people paid more rate a task more negatively.<br> <br> My hope is to convince that the message Facebook is conveying here is much = stronger than the actual sums involved; it&#39;s an initiation of cooperati= on and involvement with a community, and it would be awesome to respond in = kind.<br> <br> Walter and I chose the bugs and sums involved. The sums were assigned so as= to not create animosity;</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can certainly a= ppreciate that, and it is a delicate issue, but it really depends how it&#3= 9;s framed.</div> <div>For instance, if facebook has a vested interest in D (or any technolog= y), and they need some work done, it&#39;s common business practise to hire= a contractor and get it done.</div><div>Companies do this all the time for= many reasons. If facebook were to hire a contractor lets say, to do some w= ork on any open-source project, it would follow that the work, while being = done in facebook&#39;s interest, is then contributed back to the project.</= div> <div>This happens in OSS all the time, and it doesn&#39;t usually create an= imosity. I would imagine (although I have no evidence to draw from) that mo= st communities would appreciate the paid contributions to the code regardle= ss of who they paid to do it. What really pisses the community off is when = a businesses hires a contractor to do some work and then DOESN&#39;T commit= their changes back to the mainline.</div> <div>In a sense, what you&#39;re doing here is not just hiring some contrac= tor, but you&#39;re giving everyone in the community an equal opportunity t= o take the job.</div><div><br></div><div>The criteria required to keep a re= spectable summed bounty impersonal, is that the task must be in facebook&#3= 9;s own business interest. I don&#39;t think people in the D community can = reasonably take issue past that, and the fact that everyone has an equal op= portunity to accept the contract is in some ways a nice bonus.</div> <div><br></div><div>Perhaps you should do a poll, and see what the average = sentiment on this matter is?</div><div>I think most people understand that = when a technology becomes backed by a large influential company, it turns o= ut being good for the whole community.<br> </div><div><br></div><div>Google and Apple both made their fortunes leverag= ing OSS technology... I wonder how many people in the OSS communities that = they leverage are pissed off about it? Are there stories of this sort? I ha= ven&#39;t heard any.</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> if I&#39;d assigned $1000 on= some bug and someone else has worked or had just done a more difficult and= important bug, there would be tension. The current sums are nice perks for= people who&#39;d be interested in pushing D forward anyway. And I&#39;m te= lling you: doing great on bountied bugs is one pretty darn good way to push= it forward.</blockquote> <div><br></div><div>Sure, and it is a nice perk, but your comment seemed to= be that it hasn&#39;t motivated the action you were hoping for from a busi= ness interest point of view?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:= 1ex"> <div class=3D"im"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> To work on a bug that has a bounty I&#39;d have to:<br> 1) Get up to speed on something that didn&#39;t immediately interest me<br> 2) NOT do what did interest me<br> <br> In the SF bay area, $50 is not a lot of money. It&#39;s maybe enough to pay= <br> the bill for dinner + tip for two people, or enough to fill a small<br> car&#39;s gasoline tank.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Whoa, wait a minute. You live around here? Let&#39;s meet! Will send you em= ail.<div class=3D"im"><br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> These bounties just seem to be bonuses for people who were going to work<br=

</blockquote> <br></div> YES. But that&#39;s just the beginning!<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color= =3D"#888888"><br> <br> <br> Andrei<br> <br> </font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div> --047d7b4725a84cf9dd04efbea430--
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Rikki Cattermole" <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
+1 on (potentially) Facebook hiring somebody to work on the 
toolchain in some form. Would set a good precedence and showing 
just how committed Facebook is.
I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

My feeling is with this we could really go far.
Jan 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "ed" <sillymongrel gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 06:10:41 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
wrote:
 +1 on (potentially) Facebook hiring somebody to work on the 
 toolchain in some form. Would set a good precedence and showing 
 just how committed Facebook is.
 I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

 My feeling is with this we could really go far.

I'm new and this is how I see it as a bit of an outsider... Facebook have put up bounties and allowed Andrei (whom I assume is one of their more high profile devs) to work on during work hours, at their expense. I think it is now the turn of the D community to step up to the plate. I'd love to have time to contribute to D directly but I don't. So I'd like to say that I really appreciate anything, no matter how small, that is contributed to D and especially all the hard work of the D core devs. Cheers, Ed
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Francesco Cattoglio" <francesco.cattoglio gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 04:16:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 Walter and I chose the bugs and sums involved. [...]

on the blocking and critical issues, because otherwise this would really be shooting yourself in the foot. :P
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
On 12 January 2014 00:19, Andrei Alexandrescu
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related issues.
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- and
 LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain Buclaw (what's
 happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the best angle of attack
 regarding LDC issues.

I must have been too busy not reading emails. Can you ping me about this? Thanks.
Jan 12 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 4:50 AM, Johannes Pfau wrote:
 Am Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:32:04 +0000
 schrieb Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org>:

 On 12 January 2014 00:19, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related
 issues. There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for
 GDC- and LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain
 Buclaw (what's happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the
 best angle of attack regarding LDC issues.


I guess the last missing pieces in GDC (apart from specific bugs) are NRVO, exception chaining and LTO. I probably won't work on any of these issues though, that stuff is too complicated for me ;-) But if we could get some new contributors because of these bounties that'd be even better :-)

One organizational/communication problem for me is that I've never been able to grasp where GDC is, what the milestones for integrations are, what the related issues are, and how to get from where we are to where we should. I've communicated with Iain over forum, email, IRC, Skype, and to be very honest I am unable to get simple answers to these simple questions (my accent was an issue in Skype communication). One thing I do recall is that Iain mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) that he hopes to underpromise and overdeliver, i.e. just finish integration instead of bragging about it before it being done. The unfortunate recoil from that is that I have no idea where he is in the process, and whether he could use any help. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 10:31 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
 On 12 January 2014 17:44, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 On 1/12/14 4:50 AM, Johannes Pfau wrote:
 Am Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:32:04 +0000
 schrieb Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org>:

 On 12 January 2014 00:19, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related
 issues. There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for
 GDC- and LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain
 Buclaw (what's happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the
 best angle of attack regarding LDC issues.


I guess the last missing pieces in GDC (apart from specific bugs) are NRVO, exception chaining and LTO. I probably won't work on any of these issues though, that stuff is too complicated for me ;-) But if we could get some new contributors because of these bounties that'd be even better :-)

One organizational/communication problem for me is that I've never been able to grasp where GDC is, what the milestones for integrations are, what the related issues are, and how to get from where we are to where we should. I've communicated with Iain over forum, email, IRC, Skype, and to be very honest I am unable to get simple answers to these simple questions (my accent was an issue in Skype communication). One thing I do recall is that Iain mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) that he hopes to underpromise and overdeliver, i.e. just finish integration instead of bragging about it before it being done. The unfortunate recoil from that is that I have no idea where he is in the process, and whether he could use any help.

We need to work on our communication. Which probably means: I need to work on my communication.

We all should. A good step: answer emails in which you're asked to "shut up and take my money". Andrei
Jan 12 2014
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 1/12/2014 2:51 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 answer emails in which you're asked to "shut up and take my money".

Dang, I never get emails like that.
Jan 12 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 3:06 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/12/2014 2:51 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 answer emails in which you're asked to "shut up and take my money".

Dang, I never get emails like that.

Yah, the ones asking for money are more frequent :o). On a serious note, it would behoove our community to target a GCC release to integrate with and rally to get that done. Iain's role is crucial here. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Kira Backes" <kira.backes nrwsoft.de> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- 
 and LDC-specific stuff.

Maybe there’s just not so many people around who can help with compilers? I’m an application developer and can surely also help with the library, but hacking on the compiler is something I’ve never done (and don’t know if I would be any good at it)
Jan 12 2014
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2014-01-12 14:10, David Nadlinger wrote:

 There is only one way to find out: Just try your hand at it. ;)

 I was in the same position as you some year ago, but found compiler
 development to be a very interesting field.

Yeah, I agree. I have contributed with some smaller changes to the compiler without having much previous experience. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 12.01.2014 13:20, schrieb Kira Backes:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- and
 LDC-specific stuff.

Maybe there’s just not so many people around who can help with compilers? I’m an application developer and can surely also help with the library, but hacking on the compiler is something I’ve never done (and don’t know if I would be any good at it)

I will surely like to do it, given my background on compiler design, however real life keeps jumping in the way. So I tend just to do advocacy. :) Compiler development is not as hard as people think, it just plain data structures manipulations. If you skim through a book like the one from Niklaus Wirth about compiler development[1], you get the basics pretty quickly. [1] http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf -- Paulo
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 4:20 AM, Kira Backes wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for GDC- and
 LDC-specific stuff.

Maybe there’s just not so many people around who can help with compilers? I’m an application developer and can surely also help with the library, but hacking on the compiler is something I’ve never done (and don’t know if I would be any good at it)

There are quite a few bountied bugs that are library-related. The first I see on https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language is https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1325915-object-not-const-correct. Let's say that's kinda runtime support so more difficult, so scanning down we see things like https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1327158-getopt-improvements-by-igor-lesik or... hmmm, that's about it. But there's also https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1325916-reading-writing-an-archive-causes-data-loss-std zip-horribly-broken which was paid off but since reopened (arguably for a distinct matter). If I get more budget I'll try to assign more to library issues. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 4:45 AM, Jakob Ovrum wrote:
 The bounties almost exclusively target compiler issues (understandably),
 so with the relative dearth of compiler developers, I'm not surprised
 that the bounties haven't changed much.

I don't think that's accurate. In fact most activity on github (before or after Facebook's bounty program) has been on the compiler. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/12/14 9:48 AM, Jakob Ovrum wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 17:39:31 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I don't think that's accurate. In fact most activity on github (before
 or after Facebook's bounty program) has been on the compiler.

 Andrei

Yeah, but it looks like Phobos has a wider variety of developers.

I understand the theory. The data simply doesn't support it. There's plenty of opened issues for Phobos and plenty of pull requests for it. Yet dmd is doing a lot better in terms of contributors. Andrei
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Ovrum" <jakobovrum gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 12:20:39 UTC, Kira Backes wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:
 There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for 
 GDC- and LDC-specific stuff.

Maybe there’s just not so many people around who can help with compilers? I’m an application developer and can surely also help with the library, but hacking on the compiler is something I’ve never done (and don’t know if I would be any good at it)

+1. The front-end source code shared by the compilers uses C++, and the style of C++ used is not exactly state of the art. These two facts probably make compiler contributions unappealing to most community members. The bounties are a nice perk, but before the bounty even comes into play, the developer needs to make the plunge into the front-end code base. The bounties almost exclusively target compiler issues (understandably), so with the relative dearth of compiler developers, I'm not surprised that the bounties haven't changed much.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Johannes Pfau <nospam example.com> writes:
Am Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:32:04 +0000
schrieb Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org>:

 On 12 January 2014 00:19, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related
 issues. There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for
 GDC- and LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain
 Buclaw (what's happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the
 best angle of attack regarding LDC issues.


I guess the last missing pieces in GDC (apart from specific bugs) are NRVO, exception chaining and LTO. I probably won't work on any of these issues though, that stuff is too complicated for me ;-) But if we could get some new contributors because of these bounties that'd be even better :-)
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <code klickverbot.at> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 12:20:39 UTC, Kira Backes wrote:
 Maybe there’s just not so many people around who can help with 
 compilers? I’m an application developer and can surely also 
 help with the library, but hacking on the compiler is something 
 I’ve never done (and don’t know if I would be any good at it)

There is only one way to find out: Just try your hand at it. ;) I was in the same position as you some year ago, but found compiler development to be a very interesting field. David
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Ovrum" <jakobovrum gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 17:39:31 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I don't think that's accurate. In fact most activity on github 
 (before or after Facebook's bounty program) has been on the 
 compiler.

 Andrei

Yeah, but it looks like Phobos has a wider variety of developers.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "monarch_dodra" <monarchdodra gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 17:51:42 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I understand the theory. The data simply doesn't support it. 
 There's plenty of opened issues for Phobos and plenty of pull 
 requests for it. Yet dmd is doing a lot better in terms of 
 contributors.

 Andrei

This could also be because dmd has more *reviewers*, and is generally *active*. Related: You still have 2 pulls in phobos that are basically merge ready, they just need you the "final touches". But you aren't responding to the pings. On topic: I wouldn't mind seeing more bounties in Phobos. I'd gladly take them on, but there aren't any. Another idea would be to give a financial incentive to the *reviewers* to review high priority commits.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
On 12 January 2014 17:39, Andrei Alexandrescu
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 On 1/12/14 4:45 AM, Jakob Ovrum wrote:
 The bounties almost exclusively target compiler issues (understandably),
 so with the relative dearth of compiler developers, I'm not surprised
 that the bounties haven't changed much.

I don't think that's accurate. In fact most activity on github (before or after Facebook's bounty program) has been on the compiler. Andrei

+1 The total number of pull requests in the compiler is a clear 500 more than in both druntime AND phobos combined.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org> writes:
On 12 January 2014 17:44, Andrei Alexandrescu
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 On 1/12/14 4:50 AM, Johannes Pfau wrote:
 Am Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:32:04 +0000
 schrieb Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw gdcproject.org>:

 On 12 January 2014 00:19, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related
 issues. There's a bit of budget (a few hundred only) earmarked for
 GDC- and LDC-specific stuff. I didn't hear anything from Iain
 Buclaw (what's happening?) and am discussing with Kai Nacke the
 best angle of attack regarding LDC issues.


I guess the last missing pieces in GDC (apart from specific bugs) are NRVO, exception chaining and LTO. I probably won't work on any of these issues though, that stuff is too complicated for me ;-) But if we could get some new contributors because of these bounties that'd be even better :-)

One organizational/communication problem for me is that I've never been able to grasp where GDC is, what the milestones for integrations are, what the related issues are, and how to get from where we are to where we should. I've communicated with Iain over forum, email, IRC, Skype, and to be very honest I am unable to get simple answers to these simple questions (my accent was an issue in Skype communication). One thing I do recall is that Iain mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) that he hopes to underpromise and overdeliver, i.e. just finish integration instead of bragging about it before it being done. The unfortunate recoil from that is that I have no idea where he is in the process, and whether he could use any help.

We need to work on our communication. Which probably means: I need to work on my communication.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 23:06:26 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/12/2014 2:51 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 answer emails in which you're asked to "shut up and take my 
 money".

Dang, I never get emails like that.

Royal families of African countries send me these on a regular basis. They really want my good.
Jan 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "qznc" <qznc web.de> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language

I just checked a few and some are "strange". For example, "Issue 1824 - Object not const correct" is actually a meta-issue. The current strategy to fix this, is to remove the functions, which seems to require library AAs. This basically means, once a group of people has done the hard work, someone random just closes 1824 and gets the bounty?
Jan 13 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/13/14 2:22 AM, qznc wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language

I just checked a few and some are "strange". For example, "Issue 1824 - Object not const correct" is actually a meta-issue. The current strategy to fix this, is to remove the functions, which seems to require library AAs. This basically means, once a group of people has done the hard work, someone random just closes 1824 and gets the bounty?

Hopefully consensus can be reached. Part of this all is to figure out what works best for everyone. Also who is "reed.jeesen"? He or she started work on this on Dec 23rd. Hopefully he/she is active here; a solution without context is unlikely to be acceptable. Andrei
Jan 13 2014
prev sibling parent reply "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on 
 D-related issues.

There are interesting research done on such topics: http://freakonomics.com/2013/06/05/is-paying-for-blood-a-good-idea-after-all/1
In Freakonomics, we mentioned Richard Titmuss‘s landmark 1970 
study on blood donations, which found that offering money for  
blood actually hurt donations.<

Bye, bearophile
Jan 13 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 1/13/14 7:50 AM, bearophile wrote:
 On Sunday, 12 January 2014 at 00:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I've placed on behalf of Facebook a few more bounties on D-related
 issues.

There are interesting research done on such topics: http://freakonomics.com/2013/06/05/is-paying-for-blood-a-good-idea-after-all/1
 In Freakonomics, we mentioned Richard Titmuss‘s landmark 1970 study on
 blood donations, which found that offering money for blood actually
 hurt donations.<


The quote is misleading. The article discusses recent research that has results opposite to that of 1970, and suggests a policy overhaul. Andrei
Jan 13 2014