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digitalmars.D - Editor recommendations for new users.

reply Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
suit the users.

The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

anything else is a bonus.

Whats your experience with what you use?

Many thanks
Nic
Aug 27
next sibling parent reply Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
Those all apply to Geany. It's much like Notepad++ but crossplatform. I'm sure there are other good options too. The problem with geany is that it's syntax highlighting and auto-completion depend on having the file where the symbol's defined open. But that's because it's primarily a lightweight editor, not so much an IDE. It has some ide features, but I am not using them and don't know whether you can could solve these by creating a geny project.
Aug 27
next sibling parent Nick Treleaven <nick geany.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:28:29 UTC, Dukc wrote:
 The problem with geany is that it's syntax highlighting and 
 auto-completion depend on having the file where the symbol's 
 defined open.
No, Geany supports generation and automatic loading of global tags files: http://www.geany.org/manual/current/#symbols-and-tags-files
Aug 30
prev sibling parent Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:28:29 UTC, Dukc wrote:
 I'm sure there are other good options too. The problem with 
 geany is that it's syntax highlighting and auto-completion 
 depend on having the file where the symbol's defined open. But 
 that's because it's primarily a lightweight editor, not so much 
 an IDE. It has some ide features, but I am not using them and 
 don't know whether you can could solve these by creating a geny 
 project.
Also, like Lopatin said, DLangIDE is, at least theoretically a very good option. Despide being a real IDE, it is much smaller than Geany I meantioned, despite Geany being considered lightweight. And it's highlighting doesn't depend on files being opened fo editing. I have just started to use it, trough. Whether it's stable and polished enough to work well, I cannot tell yet.
Sep 05
prev sibling next sibling parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
Textadept [1] matches your requirements. I found it lightweight, responsive, and easy to use&extend. I'm only on Sublime Text [2][3] because it's shinier. [1] https://foicica.com/textadept/ [2] https://www.sublimetext.com/ [3] Depending on your definition of free (libre vs beer) it might also qualify
Aug 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Petar Kirov [ZombineDev] <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
vim or SublimeText
Aug 27
parent reply Anonymouse <asdf asdf.net> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:11:14 UTC, Petar Kirov 
[ZombineDev] wrote:
 vim or SublimeText
I want to get into vim. It has to be vim, can't be Neovim or gvim or any other clone; I'm doing it for a Linux class. I'm on Arch Linux (or Manjaro), so I have plenty available from the official repos and plenty more from the user AUR repos. The wiki page on vim[1] lists several plugins which I assume are mutually exclusive. DSnips[2] was very easy to install by just installing UltiSnips and placing d.snippets in its appropriate place, but it seems to only provide, as the name suggests, boilerplate snippets. Dutyl[3] seems much more interesting but also more daunting, considering that my vim knowledge so far largely consists of :wq and :q!. Are those the two alternatives available to me? [1]: https://wiki.dlang.org/D_in_Vim [2]: https://github.com/kiith-sa/DSnips [3]: https://github.com/idanarye/vim-dutyl
Aug 30
next sibling parent Petar Kirov [ZombineDev] <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 11:28:35 UTC, Anonymouse wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:11:14 UTC, Petar Kirov 
 [ZombineDev] wrote:
 vim or SublimeText
I want to get into vim. It has to be vim, can't be Neovim or gvim or any other clone; I'm doing it for a Linux class. I'm on Arch Linux (or Manjaro), so I have plenty available from the official repos and plenty more from the user AUR repos. The wiki page on vim[1] lists several plugins which I assume are mutually exclusive. DSnips[2] was very easy to install by just installing UltiSnips and placing d.snippets in its appropriate place, but it seems to only provide, as the name suggests, boilerplate snippets. Dutyl[3] seems much more interesting but also more daunting, considering that my vim knowledge so far largely consists of :wq and :q!. Are those the two alternatives available to me? [1]: https://wiki.dlang.org/D_in_Vim [2]: https://github.com/kiith-sa/DSnips [3]: https://github.com/idanarye/vim-dutyl
To be honest, I'm not the right one to ask. I prefer vim (to be specific, now I use Neovim, though not to the level that I can tell difference :D) mainly because it works inside the terminal, it's easy to use (well, after I learned it), offers a ton a customization, requires no complex setup and I can find it on almost any machine. I don't use any D specific plugins, the D syntax file that's included in the default installation is good enough for me. A couple of years ago I was into setting up IDEs and language specific plugins on editors, but nowadays I just don't bother. My advice would be to start a basic vim installation, learn the difference between the different modes (normal, insert, visual, terminal - specific to nvim, etc.), learn the basic normal mode commands, windows splitting, macros, and so on. The best way to learn vim is to make it your default editor so that you're forced to be proficient with it. At first your productivity will be quite low, because you will be constantly looking basic stuff up, but after a while it will become part of your muscle memory, just like Ctrl+A/Z/X/C/V are probably now. There are plenty of good guides to follow, e.g.: http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2012/03/21/why-vim/ https://scotch.io/tutorials/getting-started-with-vim-an-interactive-guide https://gist.github.com/bpierre/0a0025d348b6001394e0 https://danielmiessler.com/study/vim/#gs.rvBIWrI
Aug 30
prev sibling next sibling parent reply b4s1L3 <b4s1L3 b4bu.b4> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 11:28:35 UTC, Anonymouse wrote:
 Dutyl[3] seems much more interesting but also more daunting, 
 considering that my vim knowledge so far largely consists of 
 :wq and :q!.
Yeah, haha, that's the basic command you need to know when the time comes to rebase a git branch in console mode.
Aug 30
parent Petar Kirov [ZombineDev] <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 15:27:43 UTC, b4s1L3 wrote:
 On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 11:28:35 UTC, Anonymouse wrote:
 Dutyl[3] seems much more interesting but also more daunting, 
 considering that my vim knowledge so far largely consists of 
 :wq and :q!.
Yeah, haha, that's the basic command you need to know when the time comes to rebase a git branch in console mode.
You can use any editor you want for git interactive rebase, or any other git command that needs an editor. Vi(m) is just the default if you haven't configured core.editor. For more info see: https://git-scm.com/book/tr/v2/Customizing-Git-Git-Configuration
Aug 30
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 11:28:35 Anonymouse via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:11:14 UTC, Petar Kirov

 [ZombineDev] wrote:
 vim or SublimeText
I want to get into vim. It has to be vim, can't be Neovim or gvim or any other clone; I'm doing it for a Linux class. I'm on Arch Linux (or Manjaro), so I have plenty available from the official repos and plenty more from the user AUR repos.
gvim and vim are the exact same program (in fact on my system, gvim is literally a symlink to vim). It's just that gvim starts vim in a Window, so you can actually do stuff like resize it. It does come with some GUI menu junk on the top by default, and using that certainly wouldn't help you learn vim, but if you use gvim and just don't use the menu stuff at the top, you're using normal vim except in a window. And if you put " hide menu set guioptions-=m " hide toolbar set guioptions-=T in your .gvimrc, all of the GUI stuff goes away. That's what I did, and I almost always use gvim, because then it's not tied to the terminal, and it's nice and resizable. But if I do need to use vim in a terminal (e.g. because I'm using ssh without X forwarding or because the machine I'm using doesn't have X installed), it's exactly the same as in the GUI window. The only hickup there that I'm aware of is that the coloring works differently between gvim and running vim in a terminal, because gvim has a better range of colors. So, your .vimrc defines the colors for them separately, and if you're picky about the colors, you have different options in gvim than in the terminal. But all of the commands are identical, because it's the same program.
 The wiki page on vim[1] lists several plugins which I assume are
 mutually exclusive. DSnips[2] was very easy to install by just
 installing UltiSnips and placing d.snippets in its appropriate
 place, but it seems to only provide, as the name suggests,
 boilerplate snippets. Dutyl[3] seems much more interesting but
 also more daunting, considering that my vim knowledge so far
 largely consists of :wq and :q!.

 Are those the two alternatives available to me?


 [1]: https://wiki.dlang.org/D_in_Vim
 [2]: https://github.com/kiith-sa/DSnips
 [3]: https://github.com/idanarye/vim-dutyl
All I use is the D syntax file so that the syntax highlighting works correctly. I've never seen any need for anything else. - Jonathan M Davis
Aug 30
prev sibling next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 04:24:47PM -0600, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
 On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 11:28:35 Anonymouse via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:11:14 UTC, Petar Kirov

 [ZombineDev] wrote:
 vim or SublimeText
I want to get into vim. It has to be vim, can't be Neovim or gvim or any other clone; I'm doing it for a Linux class. I'm on Arch Linux (or Manjaro), so I have plenty available from the official repos and plenty more from the user AUR repos.
[...]
 All I use is the D syntax file so that the syntax highlighting works
 correctly. I've never seen any need for anything else.
[...] I use vim for D coding (well, all coding... and actually, I'm also typing this in vim), and I don't even use a syntax file. D is not like Java where you need an IDE to deal with the verbosity; it's actually quite comfortable to write, and if formatted properly, easy to read without needing any special highlighting. But that's just my personal preference. YMMV. T -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
Aug 30
prev sibling parent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Robert_M._M=FCnch?= <robert.muench saphirion.com> writes:
On 2017-08-30 11:28:35 +0000, Anonymouse said:

 ... considering that my vim knowledge so far largely consists of :wq and :q!.
If you want to learn it fast up to a level that covers 90% of what you need www.shortcutfoo.com is your friend. -- Robert M. Münch http://www.saphirion.com smarter | better | faster
Sep 02
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
+1 for Geany If it's to learn D programming, then I strongly advice CoEdit (despite I think that Geany's automatic brace insertion and copy paste features work MUCH better).
Aug 27
parent user1234 <user1234 12.hu> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:14:18 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
 If it's to learn D programming, then I strongly advice CoEdit 
 (despite I think that Geany's automatic brace insertion and 
 copy paste features work MUCH better).
For learning D but also if you program **only** in D. When the syntax is not D there's a generic highlighter (1 color for the identifiers and 1 other for the ascii symbols), so if you practive other PL alot, an editor + plugin migh fit better. In my case i'd probably use Geany as well not being fan of the other trands. THough i'm satisifed with Coedit.
Aug 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?
Visual Studio Code seems to be what you need. https://code.visualstudio.com/ Easy to install, Support Windows, Linux, Mac. Has plugin support from WebFreak001 his Code-D / Serve-D(beta) plugin. Kitchen and sink support. Easy to use ( as seen with the popularity ). Relative low memory footprint for the functionality ( compared to several IDEs that do the same ). Moved to Visual Studio Code a long time ago and loving it. They are now adding multiple workspaces to the editor, to make things more easy for people and plugin architecture. Did i mention massive plugins? Git Integration to make it easier to teach people what Git is and what the difference it makes in programming projects.
Aug 27
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:15:41 UTC, Ryion wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson 
 wrote:
 The following are a must:
     no large install footprint
Visual Studio Code seems to be what you need. [...] Relative low memory footprint for the functionality ( compared to several IDEs that do the same ). [...]
The (must) requirement was install footprint, not memory footprint, and as Visual Studio code uses the electron framework[1] its install footprint is gigantic (about 180MB vs e.g. TextAdept's 20MB).
Aug 27
next sibling parent reply Jerry <hurricane hereiam.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 15:17:51 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:15:41 UTC, Ryion wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson 
 wrote:
 The following are a must:
     no large install footprint
Visual Studio Code seems to be what you need. [...] Relative low memory footprint for the functionality ( compared to several IDEs that do the same ). [...]
The (must) requirement was install footprint, not memory footprint, and as Visual Studio code uses the electron framework[1] its install footprint is gigantic (about 180MB vs e.g. TextAdept's 20MB).
It isn't that gigantic in comparison. You can say the same thing in comparison with vim which is only a 2MB install size, 20MB in comparison is gigantic. The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a number of ways. I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB cause there is literally no difference of use for me. You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an issue.
Aug 27
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 16:22:44 UTC, Jerry wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 15:17:51 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:15:41 UTC, Ryion wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson 
 wrote:
 The following are a must:
     no large install footprint
Visual Studio Code seems to be what you need. [...] Relative low memory footprint for the functionality ( compared to several IDEs that do the same ). [...]
The (must) requirement was install footprint, not memory footprint, and as Visual Studio code uses the electron framework[1] its install footprint is gigantic (about 180MB vs e.g. TextAdept's 20MB).
It isn't that gigantic in comparison.
It's nearly ten times the size, so yeah, it is relative to Textadept.
 You can say the same thing in comparison with vim which is only 
 a 2MB install size,
 20MB in comparison is gigantic.
Indeed, but that's only the raw executable, not the full package (which includes things like syntax highlighting), which adds another 26MB. But, yes, Textadept and vim+vim-core (Gentoo speak) are both gigantic required to bare bones vim. But bare bones vim doesn't fulfill the syntax highlighting requirement IIRC.
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB cause 
 there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an issue.
Not relevant.
Aug 27
next sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
 Indeed, but that's only the raw executable, not the full 
 package (which includes things like syntax highlighting), which 
 adds another 26MB.
 But, yes, Textadept and vim+vim-core (Gentoo speak) are both 
 gigantic required to bare bones vim. But bare bones vim doesn't 
 fulfill the syntax highlighting requirement IIRC.
I don't know how it is packaged on your system, but the vim syntax highlighting for D is like 12 KB and pretty easy to just drop in and use on its own.
Aug 27
parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:14:07 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 Indeed, but that's only the raw executable, not the full 
 package (which includes things like syntax highlighting), 
 which adds another 26MB.
 But, yes, Textadept and vim+vim-core (Gentoo speak) are both 
 gigantic required to bare bones vim. But bare bones vim 
 doesn't fulfill the syntax highlighting requirement IIRC.
I don't know how it is packaged on your system, but the vim syntax highlighting for D is like 12 KB and pretty easy to just drop in and use on its own.
One can definitely splice together one's own minimal vim with D support, but that would require more work than simply installing the right packages (which I assumed the requirement "simple to install" to exclude). The 26MB I spoke of are localizations (manual, messages, keymaps), default shipped .vim files (like netrw, color schemes, languages, compiler support), docfiles, and vim-tutor, all of which are AFAIK part of the canonical vim distribution.
Aug 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
 It's nearly ten times the size, so yeah, it is relative to 
 Textadept.

 You can say the same thing in comparison with vim which is 
 only a 2MB install size,
 20MB in comparison is gigantic.
Indeed, but that's only the raw executable, not the full package (which includes things like syntax highlighting), which adds another 26MB. But, yes, Textadept and vim+vim-core (Gentoo speak) are both gigantic required to bare bones vim. But bare bones vim doesn't fulfill the syntax highlighting requirement IIRC.
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
As the OP did not state any requirement, he can consider 2GB as small. Vague requirements do not invalidate the recommendation. Laptops have 1TB harddrives as good as standard. Even on a "small" 128GB SSD, it pales in comparison to the 10GB that Windows alone takes. Let alone the page file, swapfile, hibernation file etc...
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB cause 
 there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an 
 issue.
Not relevant.
As the OP has not stated the size of the laptops it needs to be installed upon, the discussion about 180MB vs 20MB or 2MB is irrelevant. We are not talking a 4GB Visual Studio installation. And its 160MB for the 32Bit version. :) So if the OP has other requirements, HE can state them in this topic, instead of you making up ideas as to what YOU consider small. Your comments are irrelevant without knowing the OP his expectations. So again please do not distract from the topic.
Aug 28
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Monday, 28 August 2017 at 20:48:44 UTC, Ryion wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 It's nearly ten times the size, so yeah, it is relative to 
 Textadept.

 You can say the same thing in comparison with vim which is 
 only a 2MB install size,
 20MB in comparison is gigantic.
Indeed, but that's only the raw executable, not the full package (which includes things like syntax highlighting), which adds another 26MB. But, yes, Textadept and vim+vim-core (Gentoo speak) are both gigantic required to bare bones vim. But bare bones vim doesn't fulfill the syntax highlighting requirement IIRC.
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
As the OP did not state any requirement, he can consider 2GB as small.
If there's nothing significantly smaller that fits the other requirements, yes. As those exists, no.
 Vague requirements do not invalidate the recommendation.
I don't consider the requirement to be vague if taken together with the other *must* requirements. On its own, I would agree with you.
 Laptops have 1TB harddrives as good as standard.

 Even on a "small" 128GB SSD, it pales in comparison to the 10GB 
 that Windows alone takes. Let alone the page file, swapfile, 
 hibernation file etc...
All red herrings.
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB 
 cause there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an 
 issue.
Not relevant.
As the OP has not stated the size of the laptops it needs to be installed upon, the discussion about 180MB vs 20MB or 2MB is irrelevant.
Except I'm not arguing that ~20MB is small. It's just small compared to 180MB in this specific context as both fulfill the other requirements. If I knew of a 2MB recommendation that fits the other requirements (such as easy to install) I would say 20MB is gigantic and consider my own recommendation to be invalid.
 We are not talking a 4GB Visual Studio installation. And its 
 160MB for the 32Bit version. :)
You say that particular discussion is irrelevant, yet you pursue it.
 So if the OP has other requirements, HE can state them in this 
 topic, instead of you making up ideas as to what YOU consider 
 small.
I'm not making up any ideas about what's small in terms of a fixed number; I've merely argued about size in relationship to each other, i.e. 180MB is gigantic only in relation to the 20MB under the assumption that both fulfill all other requirements. With regards to the requirements I've stated what I consider the sane interpretation, but if the OP clarifies that point to a hard number, that would indeed be helpful.
 Your comments are irrelevant without knowing the OP his 
 expectations.
I consider OP's expectations to be clear from his posted requirements, so until OP has indeed clarified, I disagree.
 So again please do not distract from the topic.
Why "again"? You've not stated so before AFAICT. Regardless, I disagree that discussing the validity of recommendations in a thread specifically made to gather such recommendations is a distraction from the topic; I would contend that it lies at the heart of the topic.
Aug 28
parent reply Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Monday, 28 August 2017 at 21:17:19 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
 Why "again"? You've not stated so before AFAICT.
 Regardless, I disagree that discussing the validity of 
 recommendations in a thread specifically made to gather such 
 recommendations is a distraction from the topic; I would 
 contend that it lies at the heart of the topic.
The poster asked for programs that fit his (vague) criteria, it is NOT up to you to determine what those criteria are and then belittle people there posts that try to help out with there own recommendations. The fact that you can not see this even now, really is a issue. And i am not referring to this topic alone or those that i personally post in. There are many where the same patterns are viable and i notice the pattern, that its always your name next to those posts. Is it so hard for you to not always override topics here and constant "straw man" or other terms calling. And i use this term because because you constantly write "irrelevant", "straw man argumentation", "but I don't care" and other belittling statements that seem to indicate that your opinion means more then others. Or how you supposedly do not care and have no issue pointing it out half a dozen times. It gets very fast tiresome. You are the only poster that i see here that is non-stop doing this. If you do not like something or find it irrelevant, then do not respond to it. But they way you act, like posts are below or irrelevant to you... This is the "again" i refer to. You do this is a lot of topics. You dissect people there posts and write how it is irrelevant to you or some other clever looking down terminology. It totally distracts from the topic at hand and frankly, makes people less likely to continue topics. Its this kind of attitude that in MY personal opinion makes this mailing board toxic for new users. While you are not impolite, the way you act upon people the posts makes it hard to have a honest discussion with you without it turning off-topic or simply scaring away people. So again polity again, to refrain from acting like this and let people have there own opinion without you dissecting every piece. Its turns topic off-topic and adds no value to the discussion. I await your next well written comment how what i wrote is irrelevant and how you do not notice this behavior. This site really needs a proper forum with the ability to block specific posters and make this board less toxic. Because 99.9% of the people here are nice but your behavior is hard to deal with. And i am sure you will disagree with this. Stay out of my posts and stop looking down on people and we will get along. This is my last post on this off-topic issue.
Aug 29
parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 29 August 2017 at 14:05:13 UTC, Ryion wrote:
 On Monday, 28 August 2017 at 21:17:19 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 Why "again"? You've not stated so before AFAICT.
 Regardless, I disagree that discussing the validity of 
 recommendations in a thread specifically made to gather such 
 recommendations is a distraction from the topic; I would 
 contend that it lies at the heart of the topic.
The poster asked for programs that fit his (vague) criteria, it is NOT up to you to determine what those criteria are
We're repeating ourselves here, so we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't agree that that's what I was doing.
 and then belittle people there posts that try to help out with 
 there own recommendations. The fact that you can not see this 
 even now, really is a issue.
I don't consider the way I argue to be belittling and I resent the accusation. Side point: DlangIDE invalidates my recommendation, as well
 And i am not referring to this topic alone or those that i 
 personally post in. There are many where the same patterns are 
 viable and i notice the pattern, that its always your name next 
 to those posts.

 Is it so hard for you to not always override topics here and 
 constant "straw man" or other terms calling.
I have to point out that when I attribute "straw man" to a quote, it's because the author of that quote has responded to something I wrote, but argued against a point that I did not make, which is a logical fallacy. The same applies to other such fallacies such as "red herring" and if you do catch me in one, I do hope you point it out, as it is hard to see when one is committing one oneself.
 And i use this term because because you constantly write 
 "irrelevant", "straw man argumentation", "but I don't care" and 
 other belittling statements that seem to indicate that your 
 opinion means more then others.
I don't see how pointing out logical fallacies constitutes belittling (again, please do point them out if you catch me in one). W.r.t. the "I don't care" (I assume you refer to the website thread): If I perceive someone trying to engage me in a topic I have no interest in after I've commented about general procedure (which applies to the topic being turned from idea to tangible result) I can either ignore them, or point out that it doesn't interest me. I consider the first option to be ruder. Lastly the "irrelevant": If someone disagrees with me dismissing their argument like that I welcome a counter argument as to why they do consider it relevant to the point I was making in the quote they replied to.
 Or how you supposedly do not care and have no issue pointing it 
 out half a dozen times.
I pointed it out again when despite earlier comment(s) on the subject the attempt to engage me in it was made again.
 It gets very fast tiresome. You are the only poster that i see 
 here that is non-stop doing this. If you do not like something 
 or find it irrelevant, then do not respond to it.
I generally don't; if someone responds either to me, or posts in a discussion I've joined, that's another matter, though.
 But they way you act, like posts are below or irrelevant to 
 you...
If they were I wouldn't take the time to respond. I point these things in responses to me out because I hope for a reply containing an actual counter argument to the point I was making.
 This is the "again" i refer to. You do this is a lot of topics. 
 You dissect people there posts and write how it is irrelevant 
 to you or some other clever looking down terminology. It 
 totally distracts from the topic at hand and frankly, makes 
 people less likely to continue topics.
I strongly disagree that pointing out logical fallacies distracts from the topic at hand, because that's what logical fallacies do. W.r.t. post dissection: Addressing individual points allows the exchange of specific arguments and counter arguments.
 Its this kind of attitude that in MY personal opinion makes 
 this mailing board toxic for new users. While you are not 
 impolite, the way you act upon people the posts makes it hard 
 to have a honest discussion with you without it turning 
 off-topic or simply scaring away people.
I'm not sure if you're making the point that you want to write things to me that you don't want to expose others to, or that you don't feel that you can have a discussion with me on account of how I write. For the former: You can send me a private email. For the latter: The best I can do is assure you that I'll refrain from responding to you first in a thread (unless there are exceptional circumstances); if you respond to me, that's another matter.
 So again polity again, to refrain from acting like this and let 
 people have there own opinion without you dissecting every 
 piece.
Again, if someone replies to me with a logical fallacy, I will point that out; the same way I would expect them to point it out if I were to do it. I will also address the individual points they were making as a response to me as I don't see how that conflicts with them having their opinions.
 Its turns topic off-topic and adds no value to the discussion. 
 I await your next well written comment how what i wrote is 
 irrelevant and how you do not notice this behavior.
Thank you for saying they are well written. I don't consider what you wrote irrelevant, as it did not deviate from the point we were discussing and it did cause me to reflect and reevaluate. In hindsight it would've been better for me not to respond first to you and wait for OPs evaluation of the recommendations; it doesn't change my earlier mentioned position that I consider his requirements being clear enough, but I did unnecessarily escalate first, for which I apologize. The other behavior you mention when I respond to someone responding to me, however, is quite deliberate (as I've explained in the above), because I consider pointing out flaws in a discussion vital to that discussion's usefulness.
 This site really needs a proper forum with the ability to block 
 specific posters and make this board less toxic. Because 99.9% 
 of the people here are nice but your behavior is hard to deal 
 with.
If it interests you, the forum is a web frontend for a newsgroups server [1]. If you have a newsgroup reader (most major desktop mail clients support subscribing to newsgroups), you can use that interface; most such newsgroup readers include a killfile to which you can add people whose posts you don't wish to see.
 And i am sure you will disagree with this.
I don't disagree, as it's an opinion, not an argument in a (technical) discussion.
 Stay out of my posts
If that is what you wish, outside of exceptional circumstances, I won't respond to you first.
 and stop looking down on people
I repeat that I resent this accusation.
 and we will get along. This is my last post on this off-topic 
 issue.
[1] http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html
Aug 29
prev sibling parent reply Jerry <hurricane hereiam.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
The install requirement is arbitrary, and why 20MB? It just seems like you are trying to advertise that program for some reason.
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB cause 
 there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
So replace me with anyone.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an 
 issue.
Not relevant.
It is relevant, shit, even with a shitty laptop you can upgrade the hdd and then it becomes a non-issue anyways.
Aug 30
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 21:30:44 UTC, Jerry wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
The install requirement is arbitrary, and why 20MB? It just seems like you are trying to advertise that program for some reason.
Because of the programs recommended until that post nothing was below that while meeting the other requirements (there were others in the same range, vim being one). The (later) DlangIDE recommendation, however, lowered that to about ~5MB (beating both my recommendation and vim in the process).
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB 
 cause there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
So replace me with anyone.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an 
 issue.
Not relevant.
It is relevant, shit, even with a shitty laptop you can upgrade the hdd and then it becomes a non-issue anyways.
Your argument implicitly assumed a specific reason (albeit a generally sensible one) as to why low install size was a (must) requirement (physical storage limitations being only one possible reason; shared devices with fixed disk quotas or devices owned by the university with certain policies being other possibilities). That is why I didn't (and don't) think it as relevant to the specific point about being as low as possible I was making.
Aug 30
parent reply Jerry <hurricane hereiam.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 22:42:40 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
wrote:
 On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 21:30:44 UTC, Jerry wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:08:52 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 The requirements are rather vague, you can interpret it in a 
 number of ways.
The sensible interpretation imho is "as low an install footprint as possible while still fulfilling the other requirements". I'm not aware of anything below ~20MB install footprint that fulfills the other requirements, but I'd be interested if you know any.
The install requirement is arbitrary, and why 20MB? It just seems like you are trying to advertise that program for some reason.
Because of the programs recommended until that post nothing was below that while meeting the other requirements (there were others in the same range, vim being one). The (later) DlangIDE recommendation, however, lowered that to about ~5MB (beating both my recommendation and vim in the process).
It's one of the most useless requirements in that list though. The only reason people mention install size is to boast about it. I think he just didn't want to install something like Visual Studio which takes 10+ GB.
 I wouldn't consider 200MB gigantic in comparison to 20MB 
 cause there is literally no difference of use for me.
The thread is about OP's requirements.
So replace me with anyone.
 You'd have to have a really shitty laptop for it to be an 
 issue.
Not relevant.
It is relevant, shit, even with a shitty laptop you can upgrade the hdd and then it becomes a non-issue anyways.
Your argument implicitly assumed a specific reason (albeit a generally sensible one) as to why low install size was a (must) requirement (physical storage limitations being only one possible reason; shared devices with fixed disk quotas or devices owned by the university with certain policies being other possibilities). That is why I didn't (and don't) think it as relevant to the specific point about being as low as possible I was making.
Fancy way of agreeing with me, not sure what you are even going on about anymore if you agree.
Aug 31
parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Thursday, 31 August 2017 at 23:20:52 UTC, Jerry wrote:
 On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 22:42:40 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:
 On Wednesday, 30 August 2017 at 21:30:44 UTC, Jerry wrote:
 The install requirement is arbitrary, and why 20MB? It just 
 seems like you are trying to advertise that program for some 
 reason.
Because of the programs recommended until that post nothing was below that while meeting the other requirements (there were others in the same range, vim being one). The (later) DlangIDE recommendation, however, lowered that to about ~5MB (beating both my recommendation and vim in the process).
It's one of the most useless requirements in that list though.
That depends on OP's use case.
 The only reason people mention install size is to boast about 
 it.
I disagree.
 I think he just didn't want to install something like Visual 
 Studio which takes 10+ GB.
I don't know and don't want to speculate. My personal implicit assumption is only that as this is the general NG, not the learn NG, that OP has good reasons as to why that's a requirement (on the learn NG I would've asked for the reasons first before recommending anything myself, though that's beside the point).
 It is relevant, shit, even with a shitty laptop you can 
 upgrade the hdd and then it becomes a non-issue anyways.
Your argument implicitly assumed a specific reason (albeit a generally sensible one) as to why low install size was a (must) requirement (physical storage limitations being only one possible reason; shared devices with fixed disk quotas or devices owned by the university with certain policies being other possibilities). That is why I didn't (and don't) think it as relevant to the specific point about being as low as possible I was making.
Fancy way of agreeing with me, not sure what you are even going on about anymore if you agree.
I provided an explanation why I dismissed your argument as irrelevant to the point I was making. That does not mean I agree with you.
Aug 31
prev sibling parent Manu via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 28 August 2017 at 01:17, Moritz Maxeiner via Digitalmars-d <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:15:41 UTC, Ryion wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:

 The following are a must:
     no large install footprint
Visual Studio Code seems to be what you need. [...] Relative low memory footprint for the functionality ( compared to several IDEs that do the same ). [...]
The (must) requirement was install footprint, not memory footprint, and as Visual Studio code uses the electron framework[1] its install footprint is gigantic (about 180MB vs e.g. TextAdept's 20MB).
I kinda feel like 'large' probably begins roughly when footprint is measured in GB... it's 2017 after all! Even in 2000 180mb was only 'kinda-big-ish' ;)
Aug 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
I only use vim, including the GUI version when I was on Windows a couple years ago, but I recently saw this blog post that suggests Sublime would be a good choice for noobs, who might be overwhelmed by vim's learning curve and want a more GUI-like experience: https://medium.freecodecamp.org/why-i-still-use-vim-67afd76b4db6
Aug 27
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 I only use vim, including the GUI version when I was on Windows 
 a couple years ago, but I recently saw this blog post that 
 suggests Sublime would be a good choice for noobs, who might be 
 overwhelmed by vim's learning curve and want a more GUI-like 
 experience:

 https://medium.freecodecamp.org/why-i-still-use-vim-67afd76b4db6
I've already tried Sublime Text, and I agree that it's much more user-friendly than Vim. But Geany is quite close to Sublime Text. And it's 100% free and open source, really cross-platform, easy to download and install (14mb for the windows installer), while using very little resources and being very complete and user-friendly. If you need a simple D IDE with all batteries included, I still think that CoEdit may be the best option, for the same reasons...
Aug 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vadim Lopatin <coolreader.org gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would best 
 suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the two 
 the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
Try DlangIDE : https://github.com/buggins/dlangide Simple IDE with DUB based project format, uses DUB to fetch dependencies, build and run projects. Support of basic debugging. Syntax highlight, code completion, go to definition - using DCD. Supports Windows, mac, linux. Precompiled binaries for Windows: https://github.com/buggins/dlangide/releases Distribution size for Windows - 5.4Mb zipped. Includes DUB and mago-mi debugger. For Mac, it's easy to build it using DUB.
Aug 29
parent Vadim Lopatin <coolreader.org gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 29 August 2017 at 08:15:08 UTC, Vadim Lopatin wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 10:05:29 UTC, Nicholas Wilson 
 wrote:
 So I will be doing a workshop on programming for the biology 
 department at my university and I was wondering what would 
 best suit the users.

 The following are a must:
     support windows & mac ( the more consistent between the 
 two the better)
     free
     no large install footprint, preferably simple install 
 procedure (running on laptops)
     syntax highlighting
     straightforward to use

 anything else is a bonus.

 Whats your experience with what you use?

 Many thanks
 Nic
Try DlangIDE : https://github.com/buggins/dlangide Simple IDE with DUB based project format, uses DUB to fetch dependencies, build and run projects. Support of basic debugging. Syntax highlight, code completion, go to definition - using DCD. Supports Windows, mac, linux. Precompiled binaries for Windows: https://github.com/buggins/dlangide/releases Distribution size for Windows - 5.4Mb zipped. Includes DUB and mago-mi debugger. For Mac, it's easy to build it using DUB.
New DlangIDE version v0.7.60 is released. Windows binaries are available here https://github.com/buggins/dlangide/releases
Aug 30
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 16:42:46 H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 04:24:47PM -0600, Jonathan M Davis via 
Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 11:28:35 Anonymouse via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:
 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 12:11:14 UTC, Petar Kirov

 [ZombineDev] wrote:
 vim or SublimeText
I want to get into vim. It has to be vim, can't be Neovim or gvim or any other clone; I'm doing it for a Linux class. I'm on Arch Linux (or Manjaro), so I have plenty available from the official repos and plenty more from the user AUR repos.
[...]
 All I use is the D syntax file so that the syntax highlighting works
 correctly. I've never seen any need for anything else.
[...] I use vim for D coding (well, all coding... and actually, I'm also typing this in vim), and I don't even use a syntax file. D is not like Java where you need an IDE to deal with the verbosity; it's actually quite comfortable to write, and if formatted properly, easy to read without needing any special highlighting. But that's just my personal preference. YMMV.
It's possible to read pretty much any language without syntax highlighting, but I find that it makes it faster when you have good syntax highlighting, and I see no reason not to take advantage of it. Regardless, everyone has different preferences, so it's good that we're not all restricted to using exactly the same editor and setup. - Jonathan M Davis
Aug 30
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 06:21:36PM -0600, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
[...]
 It's possible to read pretty much any language without syntax
 highlighting, but I find that it makes it faster when you have good
 syntax highlighting, and I see no reason not to take advantage of it.
 Regardless, everyone has different preferences, so it's good that
 we're not all restricted to using exactly the same editor and setup.
[...] I don't care for syntax highlighting mainly because I find the kaleidoscopic effect very distracting on my eyes. With non-highlighted code my attention can be focused on what I'm trying to do rather than being drawn by this color over here and that color over there. That, and it rarely blends well with my choice of terminal default colors. I turn off all color settings on "modern" *nix shell utilities for this same reason, too. I find them more of a distraction than an aid. Also, I use ssh remote terminals a lot, and terminal colors often don't translate properly from one terminal to another. But yes, hooray for choice. If everyone else had to suffer the colorless environment I enjoy, not many people would be here today. :-D T -- Heuristics are bug-ridden by definition. If they didn't have bugs, they'd be algorithms.
Aug 30