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digitalmars.D - Digital Mars Website

reply Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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 I still think it would be great if we could unify it under the DPL 
 org. To a newcomer, the current state of things must look like
 there's a pretty fragmented community...
 
 - Alex
 

This comment, while slightly unrelated to what I am talking about, made me think. I was looking at digitalmars.com for a while, before that I figured out that it was horribly out of date and didn't accurately reflect anything in the D world. I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {} syntax) luckily I found some info on stackoverflow that showed me d-p-l.org. The main problems here are: Google results are digitalmars, wikipedia, d-p-l. It would be better for newbies if it was immediately obvious that d-p-l is probably the place they want. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/index.html That is the first link on Google. This page MUST either redirect directly to d-p-l, or have a note at the top mentioning that d-p-l is the place to go. Anything else in unintuitive and you will risk other people making the exact same mistake that I almost did. The D2 home is d-p-l.org, however the first thing anyone will see if digitalmars. digitalmars links to nice websites like dsource. Dsource seems to be entirely dead. I have looked, and I haven't found an up-to-date project there. So the first thing we are showing people who might be interested is a out-of-date website and a seemingly dead project site. I wonder how many people were interested in D until they assumed that it was dead? I CAN'T be the only one who thinks that this is entirely retarded, and could end up being to death of this awesome language. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOvaiZAAoJENcHIWLyQiSlcn4H/jMaud1Drix3hGXFJRNZmpqD e0viVD5sJkKdSkA9cKTz2bdry3vBmD8LEMTRizGVW8lc7/zVnH0nKzOkX8vLIykS BbEbdHDebnIB5NPSE1quZSLSvRZF26KdPTkVoA1BpiyhlXes/e+JShlZ07m1S1Ld mkCgNgyagO/POk2PkrkT5XYFz6BHU1OUSDoMTrhMnkNeK2DzOfDbf0b2Ggl7TWsC muOPX3E8ciJ4S1IPAB8gNozbPDvr6nLQ3pLh9/MIms3R9WTy1la0tEUaZKlG/rgE 3ONLnKiNQl3Ps3zMJ1a0YEvyU4pqOK+oDzNmEEaaGQ0bVt6x3f3ZmBRFNcA4+uA= =Wh13 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 11 2011
next sibling parent "Tobias M." <tobias.m onlinehome.de> writes:
Am 11.11.2011 23:58, schrieb Jude Young:
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 I still think it would be great if we could unify it under the DPL
 org. To a newcomer, the current state of things must look like
 there's a pretty fragmented community...

 - Alex

This comment, while slightly unrelated to what I am talking about, made me think. I was looking at digitalmars.com for a while, before that I figured out that it was horribly out of date and didn't accurately reflect anything in the D world. I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {} syntax) luckily I found some info on stackoverflow that showed me d-p-l.org. The main problems here are: Google results are digitalmars, wikipedia, d-p-l. It would be better for newbies if it was immediately obvious that d-p-l is probably the place they want. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/index.html That is the first link on Google. This page MUST either redirect directly to d-p-l, or have a note at the top mentioning that d-p-l is the place to go. Anything else in unintuitive and you will risk other people making the exact same mistake that I almost did. The D2 home is d-p-l.org, however the first thing anyone will see if digitalmars. digitalmars links to nice websites like dsource. Dsource seems to be entirely dead. I have looked, and I haven't found an up-to-date project there. So the first thing we are showing people who might be interested is a out-of-date website and a seemingly dead project site. I wonder how many people were interested in D until they assumed that it was dead? I CAN'T be the only one who thinks that this is entirely retarded, and could end up being to death of this awesome language. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOvaiZAAoJENcHIWLyQiSlcn4H/jMaud1Drix3hGXFJRNZmpqD e0viVD5sJkKdSkA9cKTz2bdry3vBmD8LEMTRizGVW8lc7/zVnH0nKzOkX8vLIykS BbEbdHDebnIB5NPSE1quZSLSvRZF26KdPTkVoA1BpiyhlXes/e+JShlZ07m1S1Ld mkCgNgyagO/POk2PkrkT5XYFz6BHU1OUSDoMTrhMnkNeK2DzOfDbf0b2Ggl7TWsC muOPX3E8ciJ4S1IPAB8gNozbPDvr6nLQ3pLh9/MIms3R9WTy1la0tEUaZKlG/rgE 3ONLnKiNQl3Ps3zMJ1a0YEvyU4pqOK+oDzNmEEaaGQ0bVt6x3f3ZmBRFNcA4+uA= =Wh13 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

It was the same with me. I was totally unstaisfied with the digitalmars website becuase it seemed to be from before WW2. I totally agree to all of that, D is too worthy to "die" ;)
Nov 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent maarten van damme <maartenvd1994 gmail.com> writes:
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exactly what happened to me.
Saw digitalmars and dsource and thought I came a bit late and that D had
already died. Luckily I tried the newsgroups and saw they were still alive
but we do indeed need to fix this a bit.

The biggest problem here is dsource. It's slow, cluttered and dead.
and it would be great to make users clear that the main language site is
d-p-l.org and that discussions are going on on the newsgroups before they
try the forums and see nobody is responding (like I did)

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exactly what happened to me.<div>Saw digitalmars and dsource and thought I =
came a bit late and that D had already died. Luckily I tried the newsgroups=
 and saw they were still alive but we do indeed need to fix this a bit.</di=
v>
<div><br></div><div>The biggest problem here is dsource. It&#39;s slow, clu=
ttered and dead.</div><div>and it would be great to make users clear that t=
he main language site is <a href=3D"http://d-p-l.org">d-p-l.org</a> and tha=
t discussions are going on on the newsgroups before they try the forums and=
 see nobody is responding (like I did)</div>

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Nov 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jude Young" <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.881.1321052329.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/index.html  That is the first link on
 Google.  This page MUST either redirect directly to d-p-l, or have a
 note at the top mentioning that d-p-l is the place to go.

 Anything else in unintuitive and you will risk other people making the
 exact same mistake that I almost did.

Yea, I agree. I think everyone does.
 The D2 home is d-p-l.org, however the first thing anyone will see if
 digitalmars.  digitalmars links to nice websites like dsource.
 Dsource seems to be entirely dead.  I have looked, and I haven't found
 an up-to-date project there.

DSource's project browsing definitely needs to be fixed, but there are definitely active projects there. I have a few there myself: - Goldie Parsing System still uses DSource for SVN hosting, issue tracking and message board (although the version control will probably switch to Git/BitBucket by the next release): DSource URL: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie In fact, my last update to Goldie was just yesterday: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/log/ - SemiTwist D Tools is a little bit crusty ATM, but I am still updating it, and fully intend to clean it up considerably. So it's not abandoned. It uses DSource for Wiki, SVN hosting, issue tracking and message board (but will also probably switch the version control to Git/BitBucket by Goldie's next release): http://www.dsource.org/projects/semitwist - HaxeD is something I'm still actively developing, and it uses DSource for Wiki, issue tracking and message board (version control is Hg/BitBucket): http://www.dsource.org/projects/haxed/ Plenty of recent updates to HaxeD, too: https://bitbucket.org/Abscissa256/haxed/changesets Other people have active projects on DSource, too. Off the top of my head: Orange Serialization Library: http://dsource.org/projects/orange Tango Library: http://dsource.org/projects/tango Granted, VCS hosting on DSource is becoming less common with the popularity of GitHub and BitBucket, but DSource is still actively used for other things like Wiki, issue tracking and message board. It's just that, as you observed, it unfortunately does nothing to help people separate the wheat from the chaff.
 I CAN'T be the only one who thinks that this is entirely retarded, and
 could end up being to death of this awesome language.

I don't think it would be the death of it, but it definitely hampers growth.
Nov 12 2011
parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
I like the digital mars site!
Nov 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 11/11/2011 05:58 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at
 another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {} syntax)

It's funny, the trivial reasons that people will come up with to choose a programming language.
Nov 12 2011
parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 11/12/2011 09:41 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 On Sat 12 Nov 2011 02:19:21 PM CST, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 11/11/2011 05:58 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at
 another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {}
 syntax)

It's funny, the trivial reasons that people will come up with to choose a programming language.

Please, I'm sure there's worse. My real problem with it is that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it.

The reason is that Go does not require the () if i<j { // do stuff } Also if(i<j) do_stuff(); is the same number of key strokes as if i<j {do_stuff();} and if you want to do other stuff, the first has to be changed to if(i<j){do_stuff(); do_other_stuff();} and the second to if i<j {do_stuff(); do_other_stuff() } Which means the second requires less changes. (unless you abuse the comma operator.)
Nov 12 2011
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 11/12/2011 10:48 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Saturday, November 12, 2011 22:04:46 Timon Gehr wrote:
 On 11/12/2011 09:41 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 On Sat 12 Nov 2011 02:19:21 PM CST, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 11/11/2011 05:58 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at
 another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {}
 syntax)

It's funny, the trivial reasons that people will come up with to choose a programming language.

Please, I'm sure there's worse. My real problem with it is that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it.

The reason is that Go does not require the () if i<j { // do stuff } Also if(i<j) do_stuff(); is the same number of key strokes as if i<j {do_stuff();} and if you want to do other stuff, the first has to be changed to if(i<j){do_stuff(); do_other_stuff();} and the second to if i<j {do_stuff(); do_other_stuff() } Which means the second requires less changes. (unless you abuse the comma operator.)

Regardless of the reason (be it good or bad), there are plenty of programmers who really dislike it when a programming language forces you to format your code in a particular way. It'll definitely put off some programmers regardless of whatever merits the language has. Now, even if you dislike that, there could be plenty of other great stuff in the language that makes it worth using in spite of that, but all else being equal, if one language enforces a particular formatting and another doesn't, many programmers will go with the one that doesn't.

The benefit is you have more freedom, the drawback is you have to care about trivialities such as code formatting. I don't really care, so this is not something I particularly like or dislike about Go.
 Now, there are programmers who gripe about having to use braces; there are
 programmers who gripe about having to use semicolons; there are programmers
 who gripe about just about anything and everything. So, you'll never make
 every programmer happy with whatever design choices you make. Programming
 languages should be looked at as a whole with all of their pros and cons, but
 it often doesn't take much for programmers to just give up on learning a new
 language if they don't have to learn it.

That is true. It is also sad.
 Personally, I think that I should learn Go one of these days just so that I
 have more tools in my programming toolkit and am generally more knowledgeable,
 but from what I've seen and heard of Go's general philosophies and the type of
 decisions that they've made (e.g. no function overloading and no generics) are
 the complete opposite of what I'm looking for in a programming language, so
 I'd be _very_ surprised if I actually wanted to use it for much. But it would
 still be good to learn it.

I fully agree on that. I cannot imagine being anywhere near as productive in Go as I am in D.
Nov 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Sat 12 Nov 2011 02:19:21 PM CST, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 11/11/2011 05:58 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at
 another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {}
 syntax)

It's funny, the trivial reasons that people will come up with to choose a programming language.

Please, I'm sure there's worse. My real problem with it is that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it. I just consider it annoying. And when the language doesn't seem to have anything else over D, I chose the one that let me have my cake and eat it too. First impression of Go: if y'all are gonna be that anal about one little detail... First impression of D: much cleaner syntax, C compatible, dead?(yes I had to throw that in there.) Y'all should be thankful I nitpick, otherwise I'd be using Go and not attempting to get my friends to try D. ; )
Nov 12 2011
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, November 12, 2011 22:04:46 Timon Gehr wrote:
 On 11/12/2011 09:41 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 On Sat 12 Nov 2011 02:19:21 PM CST, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 11/11/2011 05:58 PM, Jude Young wrote:
 I came very close to assuming D was dead and going off to look at
 another language. (I was considering Go, But I hate the forced {}
 syntax)

It's funny, the trivial reasons that people will come up with to choose a programming language.

Please, I'm sure there's worse. My real problem with it is that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it.

The reason is that Go does not require the () if i<j { // do stuff } Also if(i<j) do_stuff(); is the same number of key strokes as if i<j {do_stuff();} and if you want to do other stuff, the first has to be changed to if(i<j){do_stuff(); do_other_stuff();} and the second to if i<j {do_stuff(); do_other_stuff() } Which means the second requires less changes. (unless you abuse the comma operator.)

Regardless of the reason (be it good or bad), there are plenty of programmers who really dislike it when a programming language forces you to format your code in a particular way. It'll definitely put off some programmers regardless of whatever merits the language has. Now, even if you dislike that, there could be plenty of other great stuff in the language that makes it worth using in spite of that, but all else being equal, if one language enforces a particular formatting and another doesn't, many programmers will go with the one that doesn't. Now, there are programmers who gripe about having to use braces; there are programmers who gripe about having to use semicolons; there are programmers who gripe about just about anything and everything. So, you'll never make every programmer happy with whatever design choices you make. Programming languages should be looked at as a whole with all of their pros and cons, but it often doesn't take much for programmers to just give up on learning a new language if they don't have to learn it. Personally, I think that I should learn Go one of these days just so that I have more tools in my programming toolkit and am generally more knowledgeable, but from what I've seen and heard of Go's general philosophies and the type of decisions that they've made (e.g. no function overloading and no generics) are the complete opposite of what I'm looking for in a programming language, so I'd be _very_ surprised if I actually wanted to use it for much. But it would still be good to learn it. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 12 2011