www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - D loosing the battle

reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jonas_Bystr=f6m?= <highfestiva gmail.com> writes:
Hi,

I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard for people
requiring high performance from their language. Then I got wiser
(http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.htm
?partner=fogcreek), realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not
dissappear. And, sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards
filling a hole in cyberspace
(http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). Heck, it's
not even listed on Language Shootout any more.

To gain popularity, I would guess that you need to integrate with Microsofts
Visual Studio (plugin compiler and syntax highlighting). And that you need a
few larger projects on board, such as game engines.

There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)
Nov 05 2009
next sibling parent Justin Johansson <free beer.com> writes:
Jonas Byström Wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard for
people requiring high performance from their language. Then I got wiser
(http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.htm
?partner=fogcreek), realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not
dissappear. And, sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards
filling a hole in cyberspace
(http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). Heck, it's
not even listed on Language Shootout any more.
 
 To gain popularity, I would guess that you need to integrate with Microsofts
Visual Studio (plugin compiler and syntax highlighting). And that you need a
few larger projects on board, such as game engines.
 
 There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)

For those clicking on the OP's second link, try this corrected link: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html beers, Justin
Nov 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply #ponce <aliloko nosp_am.gmail.com> writes:
Jonas Byström Wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard for
people requiring high performance from their language. Then I got wiser
(http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.htm
?partner=fogcreek), realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not
dissappear. And, sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards
filling a hole in cyberspace
(http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). Heck, it's
not even listed on Language Shootout any more.
 

On this particular point, I and bearophile asked for adopting LDC in benchmarks in The Great Language Shootout (which may blow everything else), but the author isn't even interested in D. TGLS must not be taken as an objective thing. Languages and implementations are disqualified at will. Also TIOBE index is based on web visibility and must not be taken as is. There was a thread about it during the year.
Nov 05 2009
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
#ponce:

On this particular point, I and bearophile asked for adopting LDC in benchmarks
in The Great Language Shootout (which may blow everything else), but the author
isn't even interested in D.<

The programs of the Shootout were essentially C, with few exceptions, and that site owner is now mostly interested in languages quite different from each other. Using LDC D1 comer out good in most shootout benchmarks (but D versions of the thread-ring and regex-dna bechmarks may be improved still). Bye, bearophile
Nov 05 2009
parent reply #ponce <aliloko nospam.gmail.com> writes:
 
 The programs of the Shootout were essentially C, with few exceptions, and that
site owner is now mostly interested in languages quite different from each
other.
 
 Using LDC D1 comer out good in most shootout benchmarks (but D versions of the
thread-ring and regex-dna bechmarks may be improved still).
 
 Bye,
 bearophile

Are the sources available somewhere now that it's not on the Shootout site anymore ?
Nov 05 2009
parent #ponce <aliloko nospam.gmail.com> writes:
OK, just checkouted the Shootout

Here goes the D benchmarks 
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/541786/Shootout.zip
Nov 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent digited <digited yandex.ru> writes:
Jonas Byström Wrote: 

 There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)

Hope is for ones that can't do anything - and every D programmer can.
Nov 05 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply gzp <galap freemail.hu> writes:
I've been following D for a while, and I've lost some of my interest too 
for several reasons.

   The continuous redesign. When I started to implement s/g, I checked 
what opportunities I have, what the language specification tells, and 
what others did to achieve a similar goal. Then I implemented my own 
version, but by the time I was almost finished, I saw some major 
features are being altered. (scope - allocation, Ranges, operator 
overloading, struct constructors, array referencing, property, etc.). I 
know D is a language being developed, but when core functionality is 
being altered all the time, it's really hard to design/implement new 
libraries. At least D users (especially for newbies) should be informed 
of the state of the progress, not only through mailing list since the 
have lot's of proposals those are dropped immediately. ex: The language 
reference should be up to date as much as possible and *HILIGHT* the 
features being redesigned and what are the proposals (in 1-2 words). I'm 
sure Walter, Andrei, and the other (key) developers have a todo-list 
(and some time-tables) for the proposed modifications. (If no, D is 
Doomed for sure, since after a while no one knows what's finished and 
what is still to be implemented, and what was the planned feature)

For example, some time back, there was a proposal about altering the 
property. There`s also been a voting, but now there's no sign of this 
anywhere (except for the forum).
I liked the property idea a lot, but I cannot use it, i cannot even 
design my code to later update it using properties as there's no sign of 
its currnet state.
I know the current property implementation is based on omitting the () 
signs, but I'm not using it, as it was meant to be changed, but when and 
how ???
The same stands for the scoped variables. I've started to use it to 
allocate class instances of (small)matrices on the stack, but than i've 
read, it will go. So I have to redesign things to use structs instead of 
classes to have them on the stack, but using struct requires other type 
of initialization mechanism, as they have no default constructor to 
overload. And now the construction of the struct is being altered as 
well. And so on...

I don't require a language with all the features completed, but altering 
the core features makes it impossible to create new/stable libraries.
I can go quite well without the opPow, and other operator overloading 
stuffs. I will update the library if they are present in the language 
and call the my appropriate function ( 1+2 additional lines to the 
source) but how to design anything if basic semantics are changing ?!

   Lack of IDE (minor issue). It's not a big problem, actually I can go 
quite well without an IDE, or without a debugger either (good old 
printf:) in most cases. (I've seen there were made great progresses in 
this as well)

   Missing stable, compiler with enhanced optimization features (minor 
issue). I've tried to reimplement some of my older algorithm from c++, 
but finally I haven't even tried most of them, as I didn't see any 
optimization in the asm codes for my simplest range. (The popFront, 
front, empty function calls were not inlined at all - though i didn't 
experienced with it too much as I could not find an appropriate 
IDE/debugger to check the asm code and insert breakpoints)
I've tried to use gdc, but it only superts D1. The patch/branch to use 
D2 i have to be built manually. I don't want to compile, patch, etc. a 
C/C++ project from some unstable source and work for hours to have a
working D compiler. I want to do D.

So for these reason I'm in a passive state and i'm waiting where D goes 
to. According to my oppinion there are many other programmars following 
D in a passive way like I do.
I like many features of D (and dislike some - but it's ok, cannot have a 
language that fits all the desires for everybody ), but while it's in a 
so mutable state, it`s hard to use it. I have to wait while most 
features are made immutable (and not const, that can be altered through 
some nasty const_cast proposals :) ).

Regards,
	Gzp
Nov 10 2009
next sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
gzp:

 but by the time I was almost finished, I saw some major 
 features are being altered.

The situation is really simple: D2 is alpha state still, don't use it to develop real code. Use it only if you want to do experiments or if you want to add things to its std lib. For all other usages use D1.
 there was a proposal about altering the 
 property. There`s also been a voting, but now there's no sign of this 
 anywhere (except for the forum).

It's being implemented. Probably it will be present when D2 comes out of alpha state.
 The same stands for the scoped variables. I've started to use it to 
 allocate class instances of (small)matrices on the stack, but than i've 
 read, it will go.

Scoped objects will not go away (lot of people will not accept such change). And with some luck we'll see scoped objects inside other objects (and maybe scoped dynamic arrays too, that are easy to implement and to make safe).
    Missing stable, compiler with enhanced optimization features (minor 
 issue).

LDC optimizes quite well. Bye, bearophile
Nov 10 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gamil.com> writes:
My first observation is that you are using D2 expecting it to be stable. The
website still doesn't make it clear that D2 should be used for minor tasks to
experiment with the language. That said, I can see the concern that if you code
for D1 you'll still have the incompatibility. But it would still be better to
go from D1 to D2 than try and match all the changes as they happen. There is a
page to help with this transition too:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/features2.html

There is also a more permanent place to find the proposal for properties.

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel/DIPs

It seems Walter has gone with the idea of annotations, though no formal word on
that:

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel/DIPs/DIP6

There is also a page with many things that still need changed in the compiler,
ideas Walter wanted in, informal suggestions that haven't gotten feedback:

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel#FutureDirections

I hope these likes have been what you were looking for.
Nov 10 2009
parent gzp <galap freemail.hu> writes:
Thanks for all. Well, it seems as all of my concerns are answered somewhere on
the net. So than i have only one more request left, please update the web pages
on the http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/... to have references to the more
verbose net sources (and not just at the additional links)

Ex. I've been checking the http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/future.html and
other page from the site all the time, to see what's going on and didn't even
know (didn' even thought of ) there exists  more detailed pages of this topic
(as I thought the official site should have all the main informations). 

So please emphasize the wiki4D a little bit more (like in the overview, on the
future page, so  on) on the official page. I think it'd  help newbies a lot to
find informations more easily.

So thanks - this a reason I like D+community, they always answer my questions :)
Nov 10 2009
prev sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:46:21 -0500, gzp wrote:

 So please emphasize the wiki4D a little bit more (like in the overview,
 on the future page, so  on) on the official page. I think it'd  help
 newbies a lot to find informations more easily.
 
 So thanks - this a reason I like D+community, they always answer my
 questions :)

Point taken, I've requested to have a website enhanced with more links to Wiki4D. Take a look and comment on anything might also like to see: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3497
Nov 11 2009
prev sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
2009/11/5 Jonas Bystr=F6m <highfestiva gmail.com>:
 Hi,

 I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard for =

tp://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.html?p= artner=3Dfogcreek), realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not dis= sappear. And, sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards = filling a hole in cyberspace (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperi= nfo/tpci/index.html). Heck, it's not even listed on Language Shootout any m= ore.
 To gain popularity, I would guess that you need to integrate with Microso=

eed a few larger projects on board, such as game engines.
 There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)

It's "losing" and "lose", BTW. --bb
Nov 12 2009
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:
 2009/11/5 Jonas Byström <highfestiva gmail.com>:
 Hi,

 I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard for
people requiring high performance from their language. Then I got wiser
(http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.htm
?partner=fogcreek), realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not
dissappear. And, sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards
filling a hole in cyberspace
(http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). Heck, it's
not even listed on Language Shootout any more.

 To gain popularity, I would guess that you need to integrate with Microsofts
Visual Studio (plugin compiler and syntax highlighting). And that you need a
few larger projects on board, such as game engines.

 There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)

It's "losing" and "lose", BTW. --bb

My biggest pet peeve in the Internet Age, that.
Nov 12 2009
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:
 Bill Baxter wrote:
 2009/11/5 Jonas Byström <highfestiva gmail.com>:
 Hi,

 I had great hope that D within a few years would be the new standard 
 for people requiring high performance from their language. Then I got 
 wiser 
 (http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101/does-slow-growth-equal-slow-death.htm
?partner=fogcreek), 
 realizing that D must invade the C/C++ space to not dissappear. And, 
 sadly, D has not done that, and is definitely moving towards filling 
 a hole in cyberspace 
 (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). 
 Heck, it's not even listed on Language Shootout any more.

 To gain popularity, I would guess that you need to integrate with 
 Microsofts Visual Studio (plugin compiler and syntax highlighting). 
 And that you need a few larger projects on board, such as game engines.

 There is still hope! Use it or loose it. :)

It's "losing" and "lose", BTW. --bb

My biggest pet peeve in the Internet Age, that.

I have two more that compliment that. Some people think there writing "complement" and "they're" correctly but they aren't. Andrei
Nov 12 2009
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
 
 I have two more that compliment that. Some people think there writing 
 "complement" and "they're" correctly but they aren't.

I see what you did there!
Nov 12 2009
parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:
 Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
 I have two more that compliment that. Some people think there writing 
 "complement" and "they're" correctly but they aren't.

I see what you did there!

It peeked my interest, but it was a mute point.
Nov 16 2009
next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Don wrote:
 Sean Kelly wrote:
 Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
 I have two more that compliment that. Some people think there writing 
 "complement" and "they're" correctly but they aren't.

I see what you did there!

It peeked my interest, but it was a mute point.

You mean a moo point, shurely.
Nov 16 2009
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Don wrote:
 Sean Kelly wrote:
 Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
 I have two more that compliment that. Some people think there writing 
 "complement" and "they're" correctly but they aren't.

I see what you did there!

It peeked my interest, but it was a mute point.

Well, that point is seperate from mine. Its just that the clarity of the point is marred by it's being prolix. Andrei
Nov 18 2009