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digitalmars.D - D in the TIOBE top

reply "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
D just entered into the top 20!

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

I know that TIOBE's value is relative, but this is the type of charts
that managers usually understand.

--
Paulo 
Sep 09 2011
next sibling parent d coder <dlang.coder gmail.com> writes:
--0015175cd4f2afda8a04ac904e75
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

From the Article ....

 Wikipedia gives a hint about the comeback of D: "The release of Andrei
 Alexandrescu's book 'The D Programming Language' on June 12, 2010 marked the
 stabilization of D 2.0." In the charts we can see that the D language is
 gradually rising again since that date.

Should we look forward to more books on D now? Regards - Puneet --0015175cd4f2afda8a04ac904e75 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the Article ....<br><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: n=

=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.= 8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-= left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; "> Wikipedia gives a hint about the comeback of D: &quot;The release of Andrei= Alexandrescu&#39;s book &#39;The D Programming Language&#39; on June 12, 2= 010 marked the stabilization of D 2.0.&quot; In the charts we can see that = the D language is gradually rising again since that date.</blockquote> <div><br></div></blockquote>Should we look forward to more books on D now?<= div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div>- Puneet=A0</div> --0015175cd4f2afda8a04ac904e75--
Sep 09 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
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D will probably get even more attention once GCC 4.7 Stage 3 begins in a few
months (assuming D is going to be part of GCC).

--bcaec501652583a71004ac906f37
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

D will probably get even more attention once GCC 4.7 Stage 3 begins in a few
months (assuming D is going to be part of GCC).<br>

--bcaec501652583a71004ac906f37--
Sep 09 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/10/11 12:50 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 D just entered into the top 20!

 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I know that TIOBE's value is relative, but this is the type of charts
 that managers usually understand.

Now on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/kaxgq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/ Andrei
Sep 09 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/10/11 1:44 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 9/10/11 12:50 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 D just entered into the top 20!

 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I know that TIOBE's value is relative, but this is the type of charts
 that managers usually understand.

Now on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/kaxgq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/

Posted in the wrong place, deleted and reposted here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kaxjq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/ Andrei
Sep 09 2011
prev sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--bcaec51b186717ea6304ac92d6e4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Weird, the september headline is gone now, and it's showing august headline
again.

--bcaec51b186717ea6304ac92d6e4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

Weird, the september headline is gone now, and it&#39;s showing august headline
again.<br>

--bcaec51b186717ea6304ac92d6e4--
Sep 10 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Paulo Pinto:

 I know that TIOBE's value is relative,

Well, its value is minimal.
 but this is the type of charts
 that managers usually understand.

I think most managers only see the top 11 of that list I am seeing now (some managers probably see some language below too, like Delphi, Ada, Scala, etc, but they are uncommon). Bye, bearophile
Sep 10 2011
next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
bearophile Wrote:

 I think most managers only see the top 11 of that list I am seeing now (some
managers probably see some language below too, like Delphi, Ada, Scala, etc,
but they are uncommon).

DevExpress enterprise-quality visual controls library started as a Delphi project and they still support the delphi version.
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/11/2011 10:28 PM, Caligo wrote:
 I don't understand why some would down vote such a news. a lot of haters out
 there I suppose.

Probably because Tiobe is a piece of shit when it comes to accuracy, so crowing about your "top 20" Tiobe number brings out the hate for lame marketing.
Sep 12 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/12/11 10:19 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/11/2011 10:28 PM, Caligo wrote:
 I don't understand why some would down vote such a news. a lot of
 haters out
 there I suppose.

Probably because Tiobe is a piece of shit when it comes to accuracy, so crowing about your "top 20" Tiobe number brings out the hate for lame marketing.

Accuracy (i.e. figuring the "right" ranking) is probably indeed low, but Tiobe's methods are a reasonable proxy for a language's presence. I see the increase of D's Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months. Andrei
Sep 12 2011
next sibling parent Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 12.09.2011 17:43, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 9/12/11 10:19 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/11/2011 10:28 PM, Caligo wrote:
 I don't understand why some would down vote such a news. a lot of
 haters out
 there I suppose.

Probably because Tiobe is a piece of shit when it comes to accuracy, so crowing about your "top 20" Tiobe number brings out the hate for lame marketing.

Accuracy (i.e. figuring the "right" ranking) is probably indeed low, but Tiobe's methods are a reasonable proxy for a language's presence. I see the increase of D's Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months. Andrei

If you look at the graph, it's clear that about half of the increase relative to last month is just a noise spike. D will drop out of the top 20 next month. Nonetheless there does seem to be a small yet continuous upwards trend; it should be reliably in the top 20 within six months time.
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Steve Teale <steve.teale britseyeview.com> writes:
Agreed Andrei,

As you may have noticed, I've been visiting D at maybe 6 month intervals for
some
time.

Suddenly it seems real.  There are alternative implementations, the library
looks
like something quite comprehensive, and we're more or less back to there being
one
version. Like I said - "I just wanted to say..."

Walter,

Thanks for the retrospective compliment. Coming from you, that means a lot ;=)

Steve
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 11:43 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Accuracy (i.e. figuring the "right" ranking) is probably indeed low, but
 Tiobe's methods are a reasonable proxy for a language's presence. I see
 the increase of D's Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random
 artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months.

D is prone to overcounting because it's common name matches lots of unrelated stuff, including things like 3-D programming. The Tiobe folks can't be counted on to come up with an accurate measure to filter it out. The latest spike could be for any number of reasons. You might as well be reading tea leaves. People were scoffing at Scala at number #50, but in my experience it's just as mainstream than D is, and very likely much more. Want some stats? Martin's book on Amazon is #17,254. Andrei's book is #159,672. There are over a dozen Scala books on the market. Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions tagged with "d". Lame marketing, Andrei. But hey, it works, right?
Sep 12 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 01:38 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/12/2011 11:43 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Accuracy (i.e. figuring the "right" ranking) is probably indeed low, but
 Tiobe's methods are a reasonable proxy for a language's presence. I see
 the increase of D's Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random
 artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months.

D is prone to overcounting because it's common name matches lots of unrelated stuff, including things like 3-D programming. The Tiobe folks can't be counted on to come up with an accurate measure to filter it out. The latest spike could be for any number of reasons. You might as well be reading tea leaves. People were scoffing at Scala at number #50, but in my experience it's just as mainstream than D is, and very likely much more. Want some stats? Martin's book on Amazon is #17,254. Andrei's book is #159,672. There are over a dozen Scala books on the market. Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions tagged with "d". Lame marketing, Andrei. But hey, it works, right?

I have no connection with Tiobe and the name "D" wasn't chosen to manipulate its ranking method. Are you disagreeing with my posting of a piece of information on a community-voted forum? I wouldn't quite understand what the matter is here, if it weren't for your posting history. Thanks, Andrei
Sep 12 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 04:25 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I have no connection with Tiobe and the name "D" wasn't chosen to
 manipulate its ranking method. Are you disagreeing with my posting of a
 piece of information on a community-voted forum? I wouldn't quite
 understand what the matter is here, if it weren't for your posting history.

Nice strawman. I never said you chose the D name. I made it clear why I think using Tiobe to crow about D is just lame marketing. What's silly is framing marketing as "posting of a piece of information on a community-voted forum". That's taking generics to a whole new level!
Sep 12 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 05:48 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/12/2011 04:25 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 I have no connection with Tiobe and the name "D" wasn't chosen to
 manipulate its ranking method. Are you disagreeing with my posting of a
 piece of information on a community-voted forum? I wouldn't quite
 understand what the matter is here, if it weren't for your posting
 history.

Nice strawman. I never said you chose the D name. I made it clear why I think using Tiobe to crow about D is just lame marketing.

It's not all that clear to me. I see that post as an attempt at inflaming.
 What's silly
 is framing marketing as "posting of a piece of information on a
 community-voted forum". That's taking generics to a whole new level!

That's pretty much what I did. It's very simple, really - the people who maintain the Tiobe index wrote a few good words about D in their monthly installment for September. I found fit to share that on reddit. I fail to see where I've done something lame or of questionable intent or whatnot. If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that article? I don't understand what you're trying to prove. BTW, apparently others comment on the news, too. http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/objective-c-c-d-language-winners-in-programmin -popularity-172587. I find it odd that you hang out on this newsgroup although every indication of D's success infuriates you. Andrei
Sep 12 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading marketing.
 BTW, apparently others comment on the news, too.
 http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/objective-c-c-d-language-winners-in-programming-popularity-172587.

Then he doesn't know better about the problems with Tiobe. You do, or at least you should. D originally fell out of the top 20 because it plummeted after Tiobe actually started applying a tiny bit of care to their stats. You also acknowledged in the reddit thread that you thought Tiobe was meaningless -- that is, until D hit the front page. Smiley or not, I'll take that at face value given the context.
 I find it odd that you hang out on this newsgroup although every
 indication of D's success infuriates you.

Wrong. I follow D because I find it an interesting language. Rather than being upset at a successful D, I've been hoping it would turn out great after all these years. Why else would I make a comment supporting bearophile about error-prone behavior like array initialization? I criticize when I find things to critique, usually when they hit my pet peeve issues. Bullshit marketing happens to be one of them, and Tiobe is right up there.
Sep 12 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/12/2011 07:11 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading marketing.
 BTW, apparently others comment on the news, too.
 http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/objective-c-c-d-language-winners-in-programming-popularity-172587.

Then he doesn't know better about the problems with Tiobe. You do, or at least you should. D originally fell out of the top 20 because it plummeted after Tiobe actually started applying a tiny bit of care to their stats. You also acknowledged in the reddit thread that you thought Tiobe was meaningless -- that is, until D hit the front page. Smiley or not, I'll take that at face value given the context.

Too bad, you missed out on a good joke. Feigning lack of a sense of humor for the sake of appearing self-righteous is a losing gambit as a sense of humor indicates intelligence. Andrei
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/13/2011 8:07 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading?

I don't think that's quite a fair statement. Good marketing informs a customer about a product that may be just the thing for his needs. With any product, there are different ways to view it, positive and negative, and they aren't wrong or misleading, just different. As for popularity of a programming language, no two people will even agree on a definition of it, let alone an accurate means of measuring it. Tiobe explains their methodology, and readers are free to interpret it as they see fit. I don't see that as misleading.
Sep 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 07:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 As interpreted by Mr. Nowakowski, it's misleading to say that D is good
 because some objective language popularity measurement shows D is
 gaining ground.

Tiobe is not objective. There is a "manually determined confidence factor", and also some arbitrary numbers like "The first 100 pages per search engine are checked for possible false positives and this is used to define the confidence factor." This explains why D is ranked so much higher than Scala, despite other statistics that show the reverse. A lot of the early hits about D and programming may actually be about D, but that doesn't mean all the rest will be. Because D is so common, you're going to start getting junk results the further out you go.
 I say, that's just normal marketing. Even if it's not a
 true accurate measurement, it is a report somebody published, and why
 not take advantage of it?

Because you have some integrity?
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 12:48 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But what makes your statistics more "valid" than Tiobe's? As Walter
 said, there are multiple ways to measure popularity, and every one is
 guaranteed to dissatisfy some people.

I demonstrated the fundamental problem with their methodology. They use only the first 100 results to get statistics for a distribution that will have the vast majority of the false positives past the initial results. It's one thing to say "number of web pages about X" is an arguable measure of popularity, it's quite another to use a profoundly flawed way to get that number. The statistics I quoted were varied, simple, and easy to verify. Come up with alternative evidence instead of just using a broad brush to make all measures equal. Clearly some languages are more popular than others.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 02:21 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 12:48 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But what makes your statistics more "valid" than Tiobe's? As Walter
 said, there are multiple ways to measure popularity, and every one is
 guaranteed to dissatisfy some people.

I demonstrated the fundamental problem with their methodology.

Words like "demonstrated" or "clarified" are a bit exaggerated within this discussion, as is "flawed" when describing what Tiobe does. Not to mention the implication that I lack integrity, which is quite a bit out of character even by the standard set by the corrosiveness of your past posts. Is defending your view of Tiobe worth all this?
 The statistics I quoted were varied, simple, and easy to verify.

They're not ground truth; for example, it's known there is a lot of noise in Google's estimate number of pages. For example, searching for the exact phrase "scala programming" yields 149,000 estimated results, whereas searching for the exact phrase "scala programming language" yields 418,000 results. This is incorrect because the latter query includes the former. To some consolation, the relationship between the estimated result set sizes for e.g. "d programming" and "d programming language" looks more plausible (343,000 vs. 199,000). Andrei
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 04:27 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Words like "demonstrated" or "clarified" are a bit exaggerated within
 this discussion, as is "flawed" when describing what Tiobe does.

Only if you are delusional and can't recognize the fundamental problem with search results getting worse and worse the farther out you go (who hasn't experience this with their everyday searches?), and then only looking at the first 100 results to get a simple percentage for the whole distribution. On top of this, D matches all kinds of stuff, whereas a name like Scala does not. I also gave some simple and hard stats that agreed with each other about just how lopsided the results for Scala were for D, yet D is at Tiobe #20, and Scala is at #50.
 Not to mention the implication that I lack integrity, which is quite
 a bit out of character even by the standard set by the corrosiveness
 of your past posts. Is defending your view of Tiobe worth all this?

The way you keep on defending Tiobe isn't helping. There have also been other instances in the past where I've found less than savory statements, and I've already mentioned these before.
 The statistics I quoted were varied, simple, and easy to verify.

They're not ground truth; for example, it's known there is a lot of noise in Google's estimate number of pages.

And the Amazon sales rank? And the number of books available? And the number of questions on Stack Overflow? Should I start looking for number of jobs next? I'm willing to be you lose there, too.
 For example, searching for the exact phrase "scala programming"
 yields 149,000 estimated results, whereas searching for the exact
 phrase "scala programming language" yields 418,000 results. This is
 incorrect because the latter query includes the former. To some
 consolation, the relationship between the estimated result set sizes
 for e.g. "d programming" and "d programming language" looks more
 plausible (343,000 vs. 199,000).

What you've done is demonstrated that Tiobe's method is even more flawed. You need to sample the distribution to get valid results, not just the first 100 pages.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/14/11 3:52 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 04:27 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Words like "demonstrated" or "clarified" are a bit exaggerated within
 this discussion, as is "flawed" when describing what Tiobe does.

Only if you are delusional

(guess that's strike three)
 and can't recognize the fundamental problem
 with search results getting worse and worse the farther out you go (who
 hasn't experience this with their everyday searches?), and then only
 looking at the first 100 results to get a simple percentage for the
 whole distribution. On top of this, D matches all kinds of stuff,
 whereas a name like Scala does not.

 I also gave some simple and hard stats that agreed with each other about
 just how lopsided the results for Scala were for D, yet D is at Tiobe
 #20, and Scala is at #50.

 Not to mention the implication that I lack integrity, which is quite
 a bit out of character even by the standard set by the corrosiveness
 of your past posts. Is defending your view of Tiobe worth all this?

The way you keep on defending Tiobe isn't helping.

This is not about defending Tiobe. All in all, for a given language ascending on Tiobe is a good sign. This has nothing to do with the relative rank of languages.
 There have also been
 other instances in the past where I've found less than savory
 statements, and I've already mentioned these before.

 The statistics I quoted were varied, simple, and easy to verify.

They're not ground truth; for example, it's known there is a lot of noise in Google's estimate number of pages.

And the Amazon sales rank? And the number of books available? And the number of questions on Stack Overflow? Should I start looking for number of jobs next? I'm willing to be you lose there, too.

One issue here is that the relative rank of Scala and D on Tiobe has become a straw man. Let's not forget how it started: I posted Tiobe's September newsletter to reddit and you considered it lame marketing. Well I disagree. It seems this discussion has well outlived its usefulness, as unfortunately have ours in the past. Andrei
Sep 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 05:41 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 One issue here is that the relative rank of Scala and D on Tiobe has
 become a straw man. Let's not forget how it started: I posted Tiobe's
 September newsletter to reddit and you considered it lame marketing.
 Well I disagree.

It's not a straw man. The only reason the D was even mentioned on Tiobe was because it hit #20. If it was languishing beneath #50 with Scala, which by any measure that aren't bullshit Tiobe statistics it should be, then you would have nothing to post. The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn't even going to say anything until I saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and Caligo posting here about all the "haters" who downvoted this "news". It's misinformation, not news.
Sep 14 2011
next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 09/15/2011 01:48 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 05:41 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 One issue here is that the relative rank of Scala and D on Tiobe has
 become a straw man. Let's not forget how it started: I posted Tiobe's
 September newsletter to reddit and you considered it lame marketing.
 Well I disagree.

It's not a straw man. The only reason the D was even mentioned on Tiobe was because it hit #20. If it was languishing beneath #50 with Scala, which by any measure that aren't bullshit Tiobe statistics it should be, then you would have nothing to post.

Scala's ranking is nothing but irrelevant for this discussion. The fact Andrei was sharing is that the D programming language is in a significantly better position than the D programming language one year ago.
 The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn't even going to say anything until
 I saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and Caligo
 posting here about all the "haters" who downvoted this "news". It's
 misinformation, not news.

What about the fact that D entered the top 20 at TIOBE is misinformation?
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/14/11 6:48 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 05:41 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 One issue here is that the relative rank of Scala and D on Tiobe
 has become a straw man. Let's not forget how it started: I posted
 Tiobe's September newsletter to reddit and you considered it lame
 marketing. Well I disagree.

It's not a straw man. The only reason the D was even mentioned on Tiobe was because it hit #20.

It did so by ascending 8 positions without Tiobe having changed its algorithm. Scala's position being computed wrongly or correctly well below all 8 positions jumped has at best very little to do with that.
 If it was languishing beneath #50 with Scala, which by any measure
 that aren't bullshit Tiobe statistics it should be, then you would
 have nothing to post.

Well, the problem here is that you mix an argument and its negation in an illogical way. You simultaneously assume that Tiobe got D's position wrong at #20 and Scala's position correctly at #50.
 The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn't even going to say anything
 until I saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and
 Caligo posting here about all the "haters" who downvoted this
 "news".

Wonder why you took that out on me and others. One thing I try to do is not get in the position of saying things that I'm sorry about later on. You can be sure that I didn't quite warm up to your misplaced self-righteousness and inappropriate words, but I did my best to not let that make me respond in kind. You should know you'd do good to apologize.
 It's misinformation, not news.

D is up 8 positions on Tiobe. That's news to me, and good news at that. Andrei
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 08:36 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Well, the problem here is that you mix an argument and its negation
 in an illogical way. You simultaneously assume that Tiobe got D's
 position wrong at #20 and Scala's position correctly at #50.

Yet you keep on ignoring the obvious reason why D's stats are so wrong. I didn't "assume" it, I gave obvious reasons for it.
 Wonder why you took that out on me and others. One thing I try to do is
 not get in the position of saying things that I'm sorry about later on.

Considering that Tiobe has a bad reputation which has been mentioned both on this board and on reddit multiple times, and both bearophile and Don had reservations about the Tiobe "news", I think I have some justification in saying should have shown some restraint in touting Tiobe.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 15.09.2011 03:29, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 08:36 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Well, the problem here is that you mix an argument and its negation
 in an illogical way. You simultaneously assume that Tiobe got D's
 position wrong at #20 and Scala's position correctly at #50.

Yet you keep on ignoring the obvious reason why D's stats are so wrong. I didn't "assume" it, I gave obvious reasons for it.
 Wonder why you took that out on me and others. One thing I try to do is
 not get in the position of saying things that I'm sorry about later on.

Considering that Tiobe has a bad reputation which has been mentioned both on this board and on reddit multiple times, and both bearophile and Don had reservations about the Tiobe "news", I think I have some justification in saying should have shown some restraint in touting Tiobe.

My take on this: Tiobe stats are of doubtful merit. They have a very large month-to-month noise component, and it's not even clear what they're measuring. But their headline for the month was about D. This is good publicity for us. At the same time, D has achieved a much greater level of maturity. I suspect the correlation between the two is very weak. But it doesn't really matter. We should regard the Tiobe thing as free marketing, rather than an indicator of how well we're doing. The best indicator of how we're doing is how many active contributors we have. A high web profile only matters insofar as it attracts contributors. And I think that's true for any language which is not mainstream. Only once you have a very mature product, and you're competing for market share, do Tiobe-style metrics matter. BTW "Go" must also have terrible quality statistics on Tiobe.
Sep 14 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/15/2011 01:21 AM, Don wrote:
 On 15.09.2011 03:29, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 08:36 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Well, the problem here is that you mix an argument and its negation
 in an illogical way. You simultaneously assume that Tiobe got D's
 position wrong at #20 and Scala's position correctly at #50.

Yet you keep on ignoring the obvious reason why D's stats are so wrong. I didn't "assume" it, I gave obvious reasons for it.
 Wonder why you took that out on me and others. One thing I try to do is
 not get in the position of saying things that I'm sorry about later on.

Considering that Tiobe has a bad reputation which has been mentioned both on this board and on reddit multiple times, and both bearophile and Don had reservations about the Tiobe "news", I think I have some justification in saying should have shown some restraint in touting Tiobe.

My take on this: Tiobe stats are of doubtful merit. They have a very large month-to-month noise component, and it's not even clear what they're measuring. But their headline for the month was about D. This is good publicity for us. At the same time, D has achieved a much greater level of maturity. I suspect the correlation between the two is very weak. But it doesn't really matter. We should regard the Tiobe thing as free marketing, rather than an indicator of how well we're doing. The best indicator of how we're doing is how many active contributors we have. A high web profile only matters insofar as it attracts contributors. And I think that's true for any language which is not mainstream. Only once you have a very mature product, and you're competing for market share, do Tiobe-style metrics matter. BTW "Go" must also have terrible quality statistics on Tiobe.

Shut up and go programming! :o) Andrei
Sep 15 2011
prev sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, September 14, 2011 16:48 Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 05:41 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 One issue here is that the relative rank of Scala and D on Tiobe has
 become a straw man. Let's not forget how it started: I posted Tiobe's
 September newsletter to reddit and you considered it lame marketing.
 Well I disagree.

It's not a straw man. The only reason the D was even mentioned on Tiobe was because it hit #20. If it was languishing beneath #50 with Scala, which by any measure that aren't bullshit Tiobe statistics it should be, then you would have nothing to post. The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn't even going to say anything until I saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and Caligo posting here about all the "haters" who downvoted this "news". It's misinformation, not news.

Tiobe attempts to measure the popularity of a language. It's an indicator of language popularity which is, on some level, paid attention to. So, the fact that D has moved up in the rankings is news. And as supporters of D, we consider it to be good news. So, reporting it makes sense. Now, while Tiobe may be an indicator of a language's popularity, and it may be paid attention to, it could very well be that it has issues and is ultimately a bad indicator of language popularity. Measuring something like language popularity is difficult to do accurately. So, the fact that Scala is above or below D in the rankings may or may not ultimately really have anything to do with their actual relative popularity (personally, I would have thought that Scala was more popular). That isn't really relevant though. The fact that D moved up in Tiobe's rankings _is_ news. If it were reported as proof that D is more popular than the languages below it on Tiobe's list, _that_ would be misinformation. But all that was reported was that D had gone up in Tiobe's rankings. That is completely true and isn't misinformation at all. And as some people pay attention to Tiobe (for better or worse), the fact that D is higher in Tiobe's rankings matters to some folks and does have an impact. The issue of whether Tiobe is actually measuring what it's trying to measure is a separate matter entirely. And if someone on reddit happens to have taken it as proof that D is more popular than Scala and said something snide about Scala, that's their problem. There's no reason to take it out on Andrei for reporting that D moved up in Tiobe's rankings, which is completely factual. - Jonathan M Davis
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/14/2011 4:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Oh, come on :) There's positive and negative traits to everything. Marketing
 touts the positive and ignores the negatives. How is that not misleading?

Volkswagon was famous in the 1960's for advertising that its car was ugly and small. Curtis Mathis advertised that its TV sets were the most expensive on the market. It's all in how you think about it.
 How many beer commercials show people getting into drunk driving accidents? How
 many soda commercials show a 300 lb. hacker at his laptop with 15 empty soda
 cans around him? Almost every miracle diet cure shows testimonials with the
 disclaimer "results not typical". Marketing is misleading *on purpose*, it is
 your job as the consumer to not believe anything at its word, and to try and
 find the other side of the story.

There is simply no way to present all sides of any product, especially not in a sound bite. Nor would anyone even want to read such or sit through it. And it would *still* be open to charges of bias. It would be misleading if Coke was advertised as healthy. Most diet plans are presented in a misleading manner. But the most successful one, P90X, is not misleading. It is pretty bald about saying you gotta work your ass off to succeed at it.
 As interpreted by Mr. Nowakowski, it's misleading to say that D is good because
 some objective language popularity measurement shows D is gaining ground.

I think Tiobe is a reasonable indicator of "buzz" on a language. Whether buzz == popularity or not, it is certainly at least one definition of popularity.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/13/2011 05:18 PM, Jimmy Cao wrote:
 I trust Tiobe.
 Tiobe has recently been correct about Objective-C and C#, in regard to their
 popularity increase.  Why would it not be correct about D'?

Because Tiobe doesn't do a good job across the board. I posted some hard stats on D, ranked 20, vs. Scala, ranked 50. The results were totally lopsided in Scala's favor. Tiobe is not reliable, especially when it comes to trying to weed out false positives to the letter "D".
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/14/2011 4:29 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 especially when it comes to trying to weed out false positives to the letter
"D".

What would you say about its "C" results? Also, Tiobe searches for the phrase "D programming", not just the letter "D".
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 02:35 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 What would you say about its "C" results?

I'm sure it suffers from the same problem, just based on their methodology.
 Also, Tiobe searches for the phrase "D programming", not just the letter
 "D".

As I mentioned, there's overlap with graphics programming, like 2d and 3d. After that I've seen random things like "Ph.D". If they wanted accurate results they'd have to sample the distribution, not just the first 100 pages. I'm willing to bet that there are hardly any pages about D past a few thousand pages, yet "D programming" returns like twice as many pages as "scala programming", where the latter is much less likely to turn up as false positives.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/14/2011 12:16 PM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 I'm willing to bet that there are hardly any pages about D past a few thousand
 pages

No need to bet, why not look & see?
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 03:27 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 No need to bet, why not look & see?

Because Google these days cuts off your search well before then. When I did this experiment years ago when D was in the top 20, it went into the weeds after a few dozen pages. So I suppose D has grown in that it no longer drops off dramatically within the first 100 pages, but that Scala is at #50 and D #20 is just a joke.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
 Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions
 tagged with "d".

Could that be simply because D is an easier language to use?
Sep 14 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/14/2011 1:58 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions
 tagged with "d".

Could that be simply because D is an easier language to use?

Or perhaps they prefer to ask about D here in these n.g. There are hundreds of thousands of postings here.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 07:13 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But the whole idea that posting a positive view of a language/product is
 "misleading" strikes me as hilarious. That's all I was saying.

Actually, Andrei has in the past made some noise in regards to other languages and presentations about cherry picking good results. If you know something is flawed and yet use it as evidence in your favor just because it benefits you, then that is misleading. There are ways to market that aren't misleading. I reject your statement that all marketing is misleading.
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/14/11 6:32 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 07:13 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But the whole idea that posting a positive view of a language/product is
 "misleading" strikes me as hilarious. That's all I was saying.

Actually, Andrei has in the past made some noise in regards to other languages and presentations about cherry picking good results.

To which you protested just as vigorously. Wait, I think I see a pattern :o). I mentioned that about Pike's presentation of Go because it showed only the positive consequences of some obvious tradeoffs, as if they did some magic somewhere nobody thought of and it was all roses.
 If you
 know something is flawed and yet use it as evidence in your favor just
 because it benefits you, then that is misleading.

I'd say we all lighten up a little. Tiobe is not unequivocally meaningless and D registered a good jump lately, which I believe is rooted in reality. I was glad about that and posted it on reddit. Tiobe is open about its methods and people can draw their conclusions. Thanks, Andrei
Sep 14 2011
parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:

 I'd say we all lighten up a little. Tiobe is not unequivocally 
 meaningless and D registered a good jump lately, which I believe is 
 rooted in reality. I was glad about that and posted it on reddit. Tiobe 
 is open about its methods and people can draw their conclusions.

That is what I'm interested in about it. Tiobe's methods may not be best to decide which language is used, should be used, or is interesting, but it is consistent. D moved into the top 20 (10 positions) in a year. And I'm pretty sure those that have been following D, that in the last year, there has been an increased interest/activity in the language. So while Tiobe may not be accurate, it is showing what most here probably already feel.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/12/2011 11:38 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
 Lame marketing, Andrei. But hey, it works, right?

I think D is doing spectacularly well considering that there is $0 spent on marketing it.
Sep 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--20cf307d02ee24985e04acc34c99
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> wrote:

 On 09/12/2011 11:43 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Accuracy (i.e. figuring the "right" ranking) is probably indeed low, but
 Tiobe's methods are a reasonable proxy for a language's presence. I see
 the increase of D's Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random
 artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months.

D is prone to overcounting because it's common name matches lots of unrelated stuff, including things like 3-D programming. The Tiobe folks can't be counted on to come up with an accurate measure to filter it out. The latest spike could be for any number of reasons. You might as well be reading tea leaves. People were scoffing at Scala at number #50, but in my experience it's just as mainstream than D is, and very likely much more. Want some stats? Martin's book on Amazon is #17,254. Andrei's book is #159,672. There are over a dozen Scala books on the market. Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions tagged with "d". Lame marketing, Andrei. But hey, it works, right?

The lame marketing is when programming languages need big corporate money and power to get them to any level of popularity. Did you forget what happened with Google Go? Not a language that's any better than D, but because of Google now everyone knows about it. No different with Scala, Java, etc. When was the last time we had something like Scalathon for D with corporate sponsors such as Google? --20cf307d02ee24985e04acc34c99 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Jeff No= wakowski <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeff dilacero.org">jeff di= lacero.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class=3D"im">On 09/12/2011 11:43 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> Accuracy (i.e. figuring the &quot;right&quot; ranking) is probably indeed l= ow, but<br> Tiobe&#39;s methods are a reasonable proxy for a language&#39;s presence. I= see<br> the increase of D&#39;s Tiobe rank not as a surprise or some random<br> artifact, but a reflection of the strong progress in the past months.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> D is prone to overcounting because it&#39;s common name matches lots of unr= elated stuff, including things like 3-D programming. The Tiobe folks can&#3= 9;t be counted on to come up with an accurate measure to filter it out. The= latest spike could be for any number of reasons. You might as well be read= ing tea leaves.<br> <br> People were scoffing at Scala at number #50, but in my experience it&#39;s = just as mainstream than D is, and very likely much more. Want some stats? M= artin&#39;s book on Amazon is #17,254. Andrei&#39;s book is #159,672. There= are over a dozen Scala books on the market. Stack overflow shows 5,606 tag= ged with &quot;scala&quot;, and 430 questions tagged with &quot;d&quot;.<br=

<br> Lame marketing, Andrei. But hey, it works, right?<br></blockquote><div><br>= </div><div>The lame marketing is when programming languages need big corpor= ate money and power to get them to any level of popularity. =A0Did you forg= et what happened with Google Go? =A0Not a language that&#39;s any better th= an D, but bec<font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, helvetica, san= s-serif">ause of Google now everyone knows about it. =A0No different with S= cala, Java, etc.</font></div> <div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, helv=

or D with corporate sponsors such as Google?<span class=3D"Apple-style-span= " style=3D"color: rgb(46, 74, 107); font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; b= ackground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">=A0</span></font></div> </div><br> --20cf307d02ee24985e04acc34c99--
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:11:57 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org>  
wrote:

 On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading marketing.

Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading? I've yet to see the marketing campaign where Coke or Pepsi touts how their products make you fat. Watch the movie Crazy People. It's a good movie about being truthful in advertising :) -Steve
Sep 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
On Sep 13, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:11:57 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski =

=20
 On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
=20
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading =


=20
 Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading?  I've yet to see the =

fat. Marketing and advertising are not the same thing.=
Sep 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--00151743f7645a39f704acd92f33
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I trust Tiobe.
Tiobe has recently been correct about Objective-C and C#, in regard to their
popularity increase.  Why would it not be correct about D'?

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> wrote:

 On Sep 13, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:11:57 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org>

 On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading


 Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading?  I've yet to see the

fat. Marketing and advertising are not the same thing.

--00151743f7645a39f704acd92f33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I trust Tiobe.<div>Tiobe has recently been correct about Objective-C and C#= , in regard to their popularity increase. =A0Why would it not be correct ab= out D&#39;?<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 3:07 = PM, Sean Kelly <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sean invisibleduck.o= rg">sean invisibleduck.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im">On Sep 13, 2011, at 8:07 = AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:<br> <br> &gt; On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:11:57 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski &lt;<a href=3D"mai= lto:jeff dilacero.org">jeff dilacero.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt;<br> &gt;&gt; On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; If you were in my position, wouldn&#39;t you have posted that<= br> &gt;&gt;&gt; article?<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt; I hope I wouldn&#39;t have published it, since I don&#39;t like mi= sleading marketing.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading? =A0I&#39;ve yet to see = the marketing campaign where Coke or Pepsi touts how their products make yo= u fat.<br> <br> </div>Marketing and advertising are not the same thing.</blockquote></div><= br></div> --00151743f7645a39f704acd92f33--
Sep 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:07:31 -0400, Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org>  
wrote:

 On Sep 13, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:11:57 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org>  
 wrote:

 On 09/12/2011 07:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 If you were in my position, wouldn't you have posted that
 article?

I hope I wouldn't have published it, since I don't like misleading marketing.

Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading? I've yet to see the marketing campaign where Coke or Pepsi touts how their products make you fat.

Marketing and advertising are not the same thing.

Advertising is marketing. Not all marketing is advertising, but certainly marketing your weaknesses is not a usual practice. The goal of marketing is to get customers to buy your product. For an freely-available open-source language, the situation is no different, the competition is just as fierce, the only difference is the lack of price. But the whole idea that posting a positive view of a language/product is "misleading" strikes me as hilarious. That's all I was saying. -Steve
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:47:39 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 9/13/2011 8:07 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 Since when is marketing *ever* not misleading?

I don't think that's quite a fair statement. Good marketing informs a customer about a product that may be just the thing for his needs. With any product, there are different ways to view it, positive and negative, and they aren't wrong or misleading, just different.

Oh, come on :) There's positive and negative traits to everything. Marketing touts the positive and ignores the negatives. How is that not misleading? How many beer commercials show people getting into drunk driving accidents? How many soda commercials show a 300 lb. hacker at his laptop with 15 empty soda cans around him? Almost every miracle diet cure shows testimonials with the disclaimer "results not typical". Marketing is misleading *on purpose*, it is your job as the consumer to not believe anything at its word, and to try and find the other side of the story. If something is not misleading, it's generally published by an objective third party. If anything, I'd say tiobe is the *least* misleading marketing that D could have. Most marketing is *truthful*, meaning the statements are true, or at least could be true. But it's typically partial truths, or skewed truth.
 As for popularity of a programming language, no two people will even  
 agree on a definition of it, let alone an accurate means of measuring  
 it. Tiobe explains their methodology, and readers are free to interpret  
 it as they see fit.

 I don't see that as misleading.

As interpreted by Mr. Nowakowski, it's misleading to say that D is good because some objective language popularity measurement shows D is gaining ground. I say, that's just normal marketing. Even if it's not a true accurate measurement, it is a report somebody published, and why not take advantage of it? -Steve
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:20:03 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org>  
wrote:

 On 09/14/2011 07:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 As interpreted by Mr. Nowakowski, it's misleading to say that D is good
 because some objective language popularity measurement shows D is
 gaining ground.

Tiobe is not objective. There is a "manually determined confidence factor", and also some arbitrary numbers like "The first 100 pages per search engine are checked for possible false positives and this is used to define the confidence factor." This explains why D is ranked so much higher than Scala, despite other statistics that show the reverse. A lot of the early hits about D and programming may actually be about D, but that doesn't mean all the rest will be. Because D is so common, you're going to start getting junk results the further out you go.

It's objective in that the results/methodology are not picked to favor D. Whether it's *accurate* or not is certainly up for debate. But what makes your statistics more "valid" than Tiobe's? As Walter said, there are multiple ways to measure popularity, and every one is guaranteed to dissatisfy some people.
 I say, that's just normal marketing. Even if it's not a
 true accurate measurement, it is a report somebody published, and why
 not take advantage of it?

Because you have some integrity?

I fail to see why quoting a published article that says some measured statistics show that D is gaining popularity lacks integrity. People *do* take Tiobe seriously, for whatever reason. Why should we not use that in our favor? For instance, let's say someone starts to use D at a university somewhere, maybe even at a university that isn't a very highly ranked technical university. Does it lack integrity to say "hey look, D is being used in universities!"? I mean, marketing is promotion, it's not criticism. I don't know, I think this discussion isn't going anywhere. Signing off. -Steve
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--bcaec51b1867d990ca04aced21cb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com>wrote:

 Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with "scala", and 430 questions
 tagged with "d".

Could that be simply because D is an easier language to use?

I remember when I started to use D1 for the first time about two years ago. For most cases it was just a matter of copy/pasting my C code and compiling with DMD. If you know C/C++, D can be very easy. I've never tried Scala, but I'm learning Haskell and sometimes it's a challenge. --bcaec51b1867d990ca04aced21cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Adam D. Rup= pe <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:destructionator gmail.com">destr= uctionator gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= ;"> <div class=3D"im">&gt; Stack overflow shows 5,606 tagged with &quot;scala&q= uot;, and 430 questions<br> &gt; tagged with &quot;d&quot;.<br> <br> </div>Could that be simply because D is an easier language to use?<br> </blockquote></div><br>I remember when I started to use D1 for the first ti= me about two years ago.=A0 For most cases it was just a matter of copy/past= ing my C code and compiling with DMD.=A0 If you know C/C++, D can be very e= asy.=A0 I&#39;ve never tried Scala, but I&#39;m learning Haskell and someti= mes it&#39;s a challenge.<br> <br><br> --bcaec51b1867d990ca04aced21cb--
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Josh Simmons <simmons.44 gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 08:36 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Well, the problem here is that you mix an argument and its negation
 in an illogical way. You simultaneously assume that Tiobe got D's
 position wrong at #20 and Scala's position correctly at #50.

Yet you keep on ignoring the obvious reason why D's stats are so wrong. I didn't "assume" it, I gave obvious reasons for it.
 Wonder why you took that out on me and others. One thing I try to do is
 not get in the position of saying things that I'm sorry about later on.

Considering that Tiobe has a bad reputation which has been mentioned both on this board and on reddit multiple times, and both bearophile and Don had reservations about the Tiobe "news", I think I have some justification in saying should have shown some restraint in touting Tiobe.

I demand a refund.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--bcaec51b186761b60a04acf56367
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Jeff Nowakowski <jeff dilacero.org> wrote:

 It's not a straw man. The only reason the D was even mentioned on Tiobe was
 because it hit #20. If it was languishing beneath #50 with Scala, which by
 any measure that aren't bullshit Tiobe statistics it should be, then you
 would have nothing to post.

 The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn't even going to say anything until I
 saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and Caligo posting
 here about all the "haters" who downvoted this "news". It's misinformation,
 not news.

Well, apologizes. I didn't mean to set you off. I have to say though, I still don't fully understand why so many would down vote such a news (or whatever you wish to call it). Sure, there may be some who down voted because of TIOBE, but I wonder how many down voted because they don't wish to see D gain any level of popularity or simply because they don't like D? --bcaec51b186761b60a04acf56367 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Jeff No= wakowski <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeff dilacero.org">jeff di= lacero.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class=3D"im">It&#39;s not a straw man. The only reason the D was even = mentioned on Tiobe was because it hit #20. If it was languishing beneath #5= 0 with Scala, which by any measure that aren&#39;t bullshit Tiobe statistic= s it should be, then you would have nothing to post.</div> <br> The Tiobe thing irked me, but I wasn&#39;t even going to say anything until= I saw snide comment about Scala at #50 in the reddit thread and Caligo pos= ting here about all the &quot;haters&quot; who downvoted this &quot;news&qu= ot;. It&#39;s misinformation, not news.<br> </blockquote></div><br><div>Well, apologizes. =A0I didn&#39;t mean to set y= ou off. =A0</div><div><br></div><div>I have to say though, I still don&#39;= t fully understand why so many would down vote such a news (or whatever you= wish to call it). =A0Sure, there may be some who down voted because of TIO= BE, but I wonder how many down voted because they don&#39;t wish to see D g= ain any level of popularity or simply because they don&#39;t like D?</div> --bcaec51b186761b60a04acf56367--
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Caligo <iteronvexor gmail.com> writes:
--20cf307c9e022ffe5a04acb54919
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I don't understand why some would down vote such a news. a lot of haters out
there I suppose.

--20cf307c9e022ffe5a04acb54919
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

I don&#39;t understand why some would down vote such a news. a lot of haters
out there I suppose.<br>

--20cf307c9e022ffe5a04acb54919--
Sep 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
It seems people (Andrei too) are slowly adding more comments in that Reddit
thread.
A sub-thread:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kaxjq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/c2iycwb

It starts with this question:

 How would you write this kind of Python in D?
 
 from struct import Struct
 def decode(buf):
     while buf:
         s = Struct(buf[0])
         val, = s.unpack(buf[1 : 1 + s.size])
         yield val
         buf = buf[1 + s.size:]
 
 Or this:
 
 def powerset(items):
     if not items:
         yield []
         return
     item, rest = items[0], items[1:]
     for opt in [[item], []]:
         for r in powerset(rest):
             yield opt + r
 
 btw, I like Haskell even more, and in it, the latter example is:
 
 powerset [] = return []
 powerset (x:xs) = do
   o <- [[x], []]
   r <- powerset xs
   return $ o ++ r
 
 Or, you can re-use the filterM function, and get:
 
 powerset = filterM (\x -> [True,False])

This is the lazy Haskell program, it's not so basic as it looks: powerset [] = return [] powerset (x:xs) = do o <- [[x], []] r <- powerset xs return $ o ++ r main = print $ powerset [1, 2, 3] It outputs: [[1,2,3],[1,2],[1,3],[1],[2,3],[2],[3],[]] The second Haskell version of the same program: import Control.Monad (filterM) powerset = filterM (\x -> [True,False]) main = print $ powerset [1, 2, 3] An eager D version, with arrays: import std.stdio: writeln; auto powerSet(T)(T[] items) { auto r = new T[][](1, 0); foreach (e; items) { T[][] rs; foreach (x; r) rs ~= x ~ [e]; r ~= rs; } return r; } void main() { writeln(powerSet([1, 2, 3])); } That outputs: [[], [1], [2], [1, 2], [3], [1, 3], [2, 3], [1, 2, 3]] The lazyness has some advantages. If I call the D version with: writeln(powerSet(array(iota(22))).length); And the Haskell version with: main = print $ length $ powerset [0..21] The D code (GHC -O3) takes 9.7 seconds and 430 MB RAM The Haskell code takes about 1.8 seconds and less than 200 MB of RAM. The second Haskell version (with filterM) takes about 2.4 seconds and about 240 MB RAM. A lazy D version: import std.stdio, std.array, std.range; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) foreach (r; PowerSet(items[1..$])) { res = opt ~ r; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } return result; } } void main() { // can't use this because the silly walkLength() // doesn't recognize opApply yet: // http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5691 //writeln(walkLength(PowerSet!int(array(iota(22))))); size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } The lazy D version runs in about 22 seconds, using less than 10 MB. DMD performs no advanced lazy optimizations here. A more complex version that does't yield distinct sub-arrays to allocate less memory: import std.stdio, std.array, std.range; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; T[30] buf; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) { buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[]; foreach (r; PowerSet(items[1..$])) { buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[]; res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)]; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } } return result; } } void main() { size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } This runs in about 4.5 seconds, and uses less than 10 MB RAM. With the syntax sugar I have suggested here: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5660 the recursive lazy D version becomes something like this, that is not too much bad looking (untested): yield(T[]) powerSet(T)(T[] items) { if (!items.length) yield []; else foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) foreach (r; powerSet(items[1..$])) yield opt ~ r; } Bye, bearophile
Sep 12 2011
next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 09/12/2011 01:36 PM, bearophile wrote:
 It seems people (Andrei too) are slowly adding more comments in that Reddit
thread.
 A sub-thread:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kaxjq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/c2iycwb

 It starts with this question:

 How would you write this kind of Python in D?

 from struct import Struct
 def decode(buf):
      while buf:
          s = Struct(buf[0])
          val, = s.unpack(buf[1 : 1 + s.size])
          yield val
          buf = buf[1 + s.size:]

 Or this:

 def powerset(items):
      if not items:
          yield []
          return
      item, rest = items[0], items[1:]
      for opt in [[item], []]:
          for r in powerset(rest):
              yield opt + r

 btw, I like Haskell even more, and in it, the latter example is:

 powerset [] = return []
 powerset (x:xs) = do
    o<- [[x], []]
    r<- powerset xs
    return $ o ++ r

 Or, you can re-use the filterM function, and get:

 powerset = filterM (\x ->  [True,False])

This is the lazy Haskell program, it's not so basic as it looks: powerset [] = return [] powerset (x:xs) = do o<- [[x], []] r<- powerset xs return $ o ++ r main = print $ powerset [1, 2, 3] It outputs: [[1,2,3],[1,2],[1,3],[1],[2,3],[2],[3],[]] The second Haskell version of the same program: import Control.Monad (filterM) powerset = filterM (\x -> [True,False]) main = print $ powerset [1, 2, 3] An eager D version, with arrays: import std.stdio: writeln; auto powerSet(T)(T[] items) { auto r = new T[][](1, 0); foreach (e; items) { T[][] rs; foreach (x; r) rs ~= x ~ [e]; r ~= rs; } return r; } void main() { writeln(powerSet([1, 2, 3])); } That outputs: [[], [1], [2], [1, 2], [3], [1, 3], [2, 3], [1, 2, 3]] The lazyness has some advantages. If I call the D version with: writeln(powerSet(array(iota(22))).length); And the Haskell version with: main = print $ length $ powerset [0..21] The D code (GHC -O3) takes 9.7 seconds and 430 MB RAM The Haskell code takes about 1.8 seconds and less than 200 MB of RAM. The second Haskell version (with filterM) takes about 2.4 seconds and about 240 MB RAM. A lazy D version: import std.stdio, std.array, std.range; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) foreach (r; PowerSet(items[1..$])) { res = opt ~ r; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } return result; } } void main() { // can't use this because the silly walkLength() // doesn't recognize opApply yet: // http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5691 //writeln(walkLength(PowerSet!int(array(iota(22))))); size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } The lazy D version runs in about 22 seconds, using less than 10 MB. DMD performs no advanced lazy optimizations here. A more complex version that does't yield distinct sub-arrays to allocate less memory: import std.stdio, std.array, std.range; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; T[30] buf; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) { buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[]; foreach (r; PowerSet(items[1..$])) { buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[]; res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)]; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } } return result; } } void main() { size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } This runs in about 4.5 seconds, and uses less than 10 MB RAM. With the syntax sugar I have suggested here: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5660 the recursive lazy D version becomes something like this, that is not too much bad looking (untested): yield(T[]) powerSet(T)(T[] items) { if (!items.length) yield []; else foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) foreach (r; powerSet(items[1..$])) yield opt ~ r; } Bye, bearophile

This eager D version uncovered a DMD bug: import std.stdio, std.algorithm, std.range; T[][] powerset(T)(T[] xs){ T[][] r=new T[][](1<<xs.length); foreach(i,ref x;r) x=array(indexed(xs,filter!((a){return 1<<a&i;})(iota(0,xs.length)))); return r; } void main(){ writeln(powerset([1,2,3])); } This does not compile iff the -inline flag is passed to DMD 2.055.
Sep 12 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/12/11 7:28 AM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 This eager D version uncovered a DMD bug:

 import std.stdio, std.algorithm, std.range;
 T[][] powerset(T)(T[] xs){
 T[][] r=new T[][](1<<xs.length);
 foreach(i,ref x;r) x=array(indexed(xs,filter!((a){return
 1<<a&i;})(iota(0,xs.length))));
 return r;
 }

 void main(){
 writeln(powerset([1,2,3]));
 }

 This does not compile iff the -inline flag is passed to DMD 2.055.

goto bugzilla; Andrei
Sep 12 2011
parent reply dsimcha <dsimcha yahoo.com> writes:
== Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org)'s article
 On 9/12/11 7:28 AM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 This eager D version uncovered a DMD bug:

 import std.stdio, std.algorithm, std.range;
 T[][] powerset(T)(T[] xs){
 T[][] r=new T[][](1<<xs.length);
 foreach(i,ref x;r) x=array(indexed(xs,filter!((a){return
 1<<a&i;})(iota(0,xs.length))));
 return r;
 }

 void main(){
 writeln(powerset([1,2,3]));
 }

 This does not compile iff the -inline flag is passed to DMD 2.055.

Andrei

Looks like this old bug report: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=4724 I'd love to see fixing all the lambda function issues be the next big push for improving DMD. Right now, they're so buggy it's not even funny. Besides 4724, the other one that really irks me and severely limits the usability of std.parallelism is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5710 .
Sep 12 2011
parent David Nadlinger <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On 9/12/11 5:51 PM, dsimcha wrote:
 Besides 4724,
 the other one that really irks me and severely limits the usability of
 std.parallelism is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5710 .

Basically, it is a huge PITA for all designs that resemble std.algorithm (e.g. also my Thrift client pool code[1]), and thus, I think we should try to fix this as soon as possible – imho we should promote the design of the standard library and encourage people to follow it, not the other way round. David [1] http://klickverbot.at/code/gsoc/thrift/docs/thrift.codegen.async_client_pool.html
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 09/12/2011 01:36 PM, bearophile wrote:
 A more complex version that does't yield distinct sub-arrays to allocate less
memory:


 import std.stdio, std.array, std.range;

 struct PowerSet(T) {
      T[] items;

      int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) {
          int result;
          T[] res;
          T[30] buf;

          if (!items.length) {
              result = dg(res);
          } else {
              outer:
              foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) {
                  buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[];
                  foreach (r; PowerSet(items[1..$])) {
                      buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[];
                      res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)];
                      result = dg(res);
                      if (result) break outer;
                  }
              }
          }

          return result;
      }
 }

 void main() {
      size_t count;
      foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22))))
          count++;
      writeln(count);
 }


 This runs in about 4.5 seconds, and uses less than 10 MB RAM.

You lose vs haskell because haskell does not recompute the same PowerSet multiple times.
Sep 12 2011
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Timon Gehr:

 You lose vs haskell because haskell does not recompute the same PowerSet 
 multiple times.

Are you sure? I have tried with memoization, but now it's slower (about 5.8 seconds). Note: to use memoize I have had to add the opCall. Is this really necessary for memoization of a struct? import std.stdio, std.array, std.range, std.functional; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; static PowerSet opCall(T[] it) { PowerSet p; p.items = it; return p; } int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; T[30] buf; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) { buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[]; alias memoize!PowerSet mPowerSet; foreach (r; mPowerSet(items[1..$])) { buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[]; res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)]; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } } return result; } } void main() { size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } Bye, bearophile
Sep 12 2011
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 09/12/2011 06:57 PM, bearophile wrote:
 Timon Gehr:

 You lose vs haskell because haskell does not recompute the same PowerSet
 multiple times.

Are you sure? I have tried with memoization, but now it's slower (about 5.8 seconds). Note: to use memoize I have had to add the opCall. Is this really necessary for memoization of a struct? import std.stdio, std.array, std.range, std.functional; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; static PowerSet opCall(T[] it) { PowerSet p; p.items = it; return p; } int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; T[30] buf; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) { buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[]; alias memoize!PowerSet mPowerSet; foreach (r; mPowerSet(items[1..$])) { buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[]; res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)]; result = dg(res); if (result) break outer; } } } return result; } } void main() { size_t count; foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22)))) count++; writeln(count); } Bye, bearophile

std.functional.memoize uses AAs internally, so that is very slow. Haskell builds a linked data structure, if you have result: [...,[2,3],[1,2,3]] then the [2,3] part is exactly the same for both. Also, if you only look at the length, the haskell code probably does not fully evaluate the power set.
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 09/12/2011 01:36 PM, bearophile wrote:
 It seems people (Andrei too) are slowly adding more comments in that Reddit
thread.
 A sub-thread:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kaxjq/the_d_programming_language_is_back_in_tiobes_top/c2iycwb

 It starts with this question:

 How would you write this kind of Python in D?

 from struct import Struct
 def decode(buf):
      while buf:
          s = Struct(buf[0])
          val, = s.unpack(buf[1 : 1 + s.size])
          yield val
          buf = buf[1 + s.size:]

 Or this:

 def powerset(items):
      if not items:
          yield []
          return
      item, rest = items[0], items[1:]
      for opt in [[item], []]:
          for r in powerset(rest):
              yield opt + r

 btw, I like Haskell even more, and in it, the latter example is:

 powerset [] = return []
 powerset (x:xs) = do
    o<- [[x], []]
    r<- powerset xs
    return $ o ++ r

 Or, you can re-use the filterM function, and get:

 powerset = filterM (\x ->  [True,False])


Equivalent D version. Runs in ca 22 min on my machine (for computing the size of P(Z_21)) LList!(List!T) powerset(T)(Lazy!(List!T) xs){ return lz({ if(xs().empty) return list(Empty!T)(); auto r=lz({return powerset(xs().tail)();}); return chain(r,map((LList!T a){return cons(xs().head,a);},r))(); }); } writeln(powerset(take(21,naturals(0))).length); 2097152 real 21m58.438s user 21m32.320s sys 0m4.710s
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling parent "Martin Nowak" <dawg dawgfoto.de> writes:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 18:57:16 +0200, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com>  
wrote:

 Timon Gehr:

 You lose vs haskell because haskell does not recompute the same PowerSet
 multiple times.

Are you sure? I have tried with memoization, but now it's slower (about 5.8 seconds). Note: to use memoize I have had to add the opCall. Is this really necessary for memoization of a struct? import std.stdio, std.array, std.range, std.functional; struct PowerSet(T) { T[] items; static PowerSet opCall(T[] it) { PowerSet p; p.items = it; return p; } int opApply(int delegate(ref T[]) dg) { int result; T[] res; T[30] buf; if (!items.length) { result = dg(res); } else { outer: foreach (opt; [items[0..1], []]) { buf[0 .. opt.length] = opt[]; alias memoize!PowerSet mPowerSet; foreach (r; mPowerSet(items[1..$])) { buf[opt.length .. opt.length + r.length] = r[];

instance.
                     res = buf[0 .. (opt.length + r.length)];
                     result = dg(res);
                     if (result) break outer;
                 }
             }
         }

         return result;
     }
 }

 void main() {
     size_t count;
     foreach (x; PowerSet!int(array(iota(22))))
         count++;
     writeln(count);
 }


 Bye,
 bearophile

Besides this can be wrapped in a random access range, which takes predictable 65ms * 2 ^ (setSize - 22) for me. https://gist.github.com/1211961
Sep 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bioinfornatics <bioinfornatics fedoraproject.orh> writes:
It is a good news. This news appear in same time where fedora add D2 in Fedora
16:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D2_programming

:-)

next step create powerfull free and open source library, more documentation and
tutorial on the web
Sep 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 9/14/11 6:22 AM, bioinfornatics wrote:
 It is a good news. This news appear in same time where fedora add D2 in Fedora
16:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D2_programming

 :-)

 next step create powerfull free and open source library, more documentation and
 tutorial on the web

I wonder whether it's okay to post this on reddit. Andrei
Sep 14 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 09/14/2011 12:18 PM, Marco Leise wrote:
 Am 14.09.2011, 15:02 Uhr, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>:

 On 9/14/11 6:22 AM, bioinfornatics wrote:
 It is a good news. This news appear in same time where fedora add D2
 in Fedora 16:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D2_programming

 :-)

 next step create powerfull free and open source library, more
 documentation and
 tutorial on the web

I wonder whether it's okay to post this on reddit. Andrei

You would definitely need a straw man to do this.

The thing about that piece is I'm not sure for how long D has been in Fedora, so I wouldn't know whether it's really news, and how noteworthy (e.g. is Fedora picky in adopting new packages etc).
 Oh btw I hope to get a
 recent DMD into Gentoo again soonish.

That would be great! Andrei
Sep 14 2011
parent Kai Meyer <kai unixlords.com> writes:
On 09/14/2011 11:24 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 09/14/2011 12:18 PM, Marco Leise wrote:
 Am 14.09.2011, 15:02 Uhr, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>:

 On 9/14/11 6:22 AM, bioinfornatics wrote:
 It is a good news. This news appear in same time where fedora add D2
 in Fedora 16:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D2_programming

 :-)

 next step create powerfull free and open source library, more
 documentation and
 tutorial on the web

I wonder whether it's okay to post this on reddit. Andrei

You would definitely need a straw man to do this.

The thing about that piece is I'm not sure for how long D has been in Fedora, so I wouldn't know whether it's really news, and how noteworthy (e.g. is Fedora picky in adopting new packages etc).
 Oh btw I hope to get a
 recent DMD into Gentoo again soonish.

That would be great! Andrei

Fedora will pick up just about any package that has a package maintainer committed to keep it up to date. It's pretty open. I think I remember LDC showing up in Fedora 15. With 9 month(ish) release cycles, I would guess that some interested party has been trying to get LDC into Fedora for at least a year at this point.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent "Marco Leise" <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am 14.09.2011, 15:02 Uhr, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>:

 On 9/14/11 6:22 AM, bioinfornatics wrote:
 It is a good news. This news appear in same time where fedora add D2 in  
 Fedora 16:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D2_programming

 :-)

 next step create powerfull free and open source library, more  
 documentation and
 tutorial on the web

I wonder whether it's okay to post this on reddit. Andrei

You would definitely need a straw man to do this. Oh btw I hope to get a recent DMD into Gentoo again soonish.
Sep 14 2011
prev sibling parent Samuel Lampa <samuel.lampa gmail.com> writes:
Just saw that ACM TechNews [1] linked the C/C#/D InfoWorld article [1] 
today.

[1] Still get it after doing GSoC for Semantic MediaWiki the other year...
[2] http://www.infoworld.com/print/172587

// Samuel


On 09/10/2011 07:50 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 D just entered into the top 20!

 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I know that TIOBE's value is relative, but this is the type of charts
 that managers usually understand.

 --
 Paulo

Sep 16 2011