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digitalmars.D - D french-speaking community

reply =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
Hello there,

I am a French student who discovered D about a year ago. I used 
it for a few personal projects, and I really enjoyed it as a 
great tool to make powerful native-apps easily.

Unfortunaly, finding resources in french on the web is near 
impossible, and I think this is a real problem for the language 
to expand ( in terms of new users, and activity ). Another 
problem is that there is no french community to exchange and 
promote it, so I decided to create a french-speaking website with 
resources and forums.

http://dlang-fr.org/
http://forum.dlang-fr.org/

There is also a chan on freenode : #d-fr

Actually the server and the services are running, and are just 
waiting for people :)

My main goal is promoting and translating resources about the 
technology ( library reference, tutorials, and maybe ali's book ? 
), and maintain a great place to start for all the beginners in 
programming, and also a great exchange spot for more experienced 
programmers.

What we need now is nice and motivated guys to help me building 
the resources and organizating about future translations. If you 
speak french you are of course welcome to come ; even just 
exchanging on the forum would be a great help for us.

I think D worth spreading, and so I hope this will be helpful.

Please excuse my awful english, this is not my native language ( 
well this is not a reason, I'm just bad ).

Regards,
Théo.
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/8/2013 12:21 PM, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" wrote:
 Please excuse my awful english, this is not my native language ( well this is
 not a reason, I'm just bad ).
Actually, your english is excellent. It's a great thing you're doing creating a french language D site. You'll need to do some regular promotion of it (not just a single posting, here).
Nov 08 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 20:57:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 It's a great thing you're doing creating a french language D 
 site. You'll need to do some regular promotion of it (not just 
 a single posting, here).
Thank you :). In fact I hopped that there was some french-speaking users here to help me begin. Sure I will make posts on other sites, and also IRL. If somebody want to contact me, mail me or feel free to add me on jabber : munrek galif.eu
Nov 08 2013
parent reply "eles" <eles eles.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:44:50 UTC, Théo B wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 20:57:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 It's a great thing you're doing creating a french language D 
 site. You'll need to do some regular promotion of it (not just 
 a single posting, here).
Thank you :). In fact I hopped that there was some french-speaking users here
Moi.
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 22:57:55 UTC, eles wrote:
 Moi.
Please subscribe the forum / send me an email / add me on jabber so that I can contact you :)
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling parent "Olivier Pisano" <olivier.pisano laposte.net> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 22:57:55 UTC, eles wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:44:50 UTC, Théo B wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 20:57:21 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:
 It's a great thing you're doing creating a french language D 
 site. You'll need to do some regular promotion of it (not 
 just a single posting, here).
Thank you :). In fact I hopped that there was some french-speaking users here
Moi.
Moi aussi.
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Namespace" <rswhite4 googlemail.com> writes:
I still hope for a German community ... :(
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 08.11.2013 22:53, schrieb Namespace:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
Portuguese living in Düsseldorf that can speak German? :)
Nov 08 2013
parent "Namespace" <rswhite4 googlemail.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:28:52 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Am 08.11.2013 22:53, schrieb Namespace:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
Portuguese living in Düsseldorf that can speak German? :)
That's a start! Ich wohne in Hamburg. ;)
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:53:18 UTC, Namespace wrote:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
They are so much D fan there that they put stickers on their cars ! BTW, I'm french.
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent "Namespace" <rswhite4 googlemail.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:31:44 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:53:18 UTC, Namespace wrote:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
They are so much D fan there that they put stickers on their cars ! BTW, I'm french.
Don't worry, it's not your fault. Just kidding. :)
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling parent reply "sclytrack" <sclytrack sleepy.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:31:44 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:53:18 UTC, Namespace wrote:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
They are so much D fan there that they put stickers on their cars !
Je crois ça va être difficile de trouver des gens qui se sont intéressés en D et qui savent parler français en même temps.
 BTW, I'm french.
You guys have the hottest female singer in the world.
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 00:02:04 UTC, sclytrack wrote:
 Je crois ça va être difficile de trouver des gens qui se sont 
 intéressés en D et qui savent parler français en même temps.
Si nous nous réunissons et que nous produisons des ressources en français, la communauté ne peut que grandir :) If we meet and if we make great resources in French, the community will grow up naturally.
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Graham Fawcett" <fawcett uwindsor.ca> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 00:02:04 UTC, sclytrack wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:31:44 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 21:53:18 UTC, Namespace wrote:
 I still hope for a German community ... :(
They are so much D fan there that they put stickers on their cars !
Je crois ça va être difficile de trouver des gens qui se sont intéressés en D et qui savent parler français en même temps.
I don't know, D seems to have a very diverse and well-educated community. I would enjoy reading interesting D discussions/articles in French. Just don't ask me to write any. :) Bien amicalement, Graham
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, November 09, 2013 01:02:03 sclytrack wrote:
 Je crois ça va être difficile de trouver des gens qui se sont
 intéressés en D et qui savent parler français en même temps.
Il y en a plusieurs ici. Ils existent! - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Timothee Cour <thelastmammoth gmail.com> writes:
french as well (although living in US).
A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French Engineering
schools ... instead of ocaml.
I'll probably stick mostly to US forums though to avoid splitting.


2013/11/8 Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>

 On Saturday, November 09, 2013 01:02:03 sclytrack wrote:
 Je crois =E7a va =EAtre difficile de trouver des gens qui se sont
 int=E9ress=E9s en D et qui savent parler fran=E7ais en m=EAme temps.
Il y en a plusieurs ici. Ils existent! - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 08 2013
parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 04:16:57 UTC, Timothee Cour wrote:
 french as well (although living in US).
+1 !
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
French here also. I'll have a look at this forum!

As for Ali's book in French, I didn't know there was any translating being
done. Can we help? Are there any similar processes for other languages?

I now realize that I've never even *thought* about D in French, and I've
been using D since 2008. I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.



On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 5:16 AM, Timothee Cour <thelastmammoth gmail.com>wro=
te:

 french as well (although living in US).
 A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French Engineerin=
g
 schools ... instead of ocaml.
 I'll probably stick mostly to US forums though to avoid splitting.


 2013/11/8 Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>

 On Saturday, November 09, 2013 01:02:03 sclytrack wrote:
 Je crois =C3=A7a va =C3=AAtre difficile de trouver des gens qui se son=
t
 int=C3=A9ress=C3=A9s en D et qui savent parler fran=C3=A7ais en m=C3=
=AAme temps.
 Il y en a plusieurs ici. Ils existent!

 - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply John J <john.joyus gmail.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world. Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this. The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk) I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche". That can sound weird but what "slice" really means, unless I am mistaken. If somebody has a better translation, please suggest! I'm absolutely not comfortable with "une slice" or "un slice". Some French people will pronounce the "i" "i", some other will pronounce it "aïe". That's not neat and that will not ease the reading of the translation. Raphaël.
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world. Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this. The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk) I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche".
morceau? Andrei
Nov 08 2013
next sibling parent reply "matovitch" <camille.brugel laposte.net> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:51:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world. Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this. The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk) I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche".
morceau? Andrei
I like better "tranche". "Template" is commonly used for C++. If there is any translation project, please make a github repo and give us the link. I didn't do much D and some notions remains fuzzy in my head (like UDAs)...this could be a motivation to "d"ive into the (not so) numerous english ressources.
Nov 09 2013
parent reply "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:12:45 UTC, matovitch wrote:

 I like better "tranche". "Template" is commonly used for C++. 
 If there is any translation project, please make a github repo 
 and give us the link. I didn't do much D and some notions 
 remains fuzzy in my head (like UDAs)...this could be a 
 motivation to "d"ive into the (not so) numerous english 
 ressources.
There's a glossary for abbreviations like these. Unfortunately UDA is not included: http://dlang.org/glossary.html -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent reply "matovitch" <camille.brugel laposte.net> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:08:13 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:12:45 UTC, matovitch wrote:

 I like better "tranche". "Template" is commonly used for C++. 
 If there is any translation project, please make a github repo 
 and give us the link. I didn't do much D and some notions 
 remains fuzzy in my head (like UDAs)...this could be a 
 motivation to "d"ive into the (not so) numerous english 
 ressources.
There's a glossary for abbreviations like these. Unfortunately UDA is not included: http://dlang.org/glossary.html -- /Jacob Carlborg
Thanks. I forked the D template tutorial of Philipp Sigaud to start a french translation : https://github.com/matovitch/D-templates-tutorial. Feel free to clone ! :-) Templates are a strong features of D and I think they deserve to be promoted.
Nov 09 2013
parent Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:31 AM, matovitch <camille.brugel laposte.net>wrote:


 Thanks. I forked the D template tutorial of Philipp Sigaud to start a
 french translation : https://github.com/matovitch/D-templates-tutorial.
 Feel free to clone ! :-)

 Templates are a strong features of D and I think they deserve to be
 promoted.
Merci Camille. That'll be strange to see my own text translated into French :)
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Rapha=C3=ABl Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a =C3=A9crit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
=20 Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into Fre=
nch,
 for that matter into any other language?
=20 I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. =20 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading ab=
out
 computer science with people who use three English works by French
 sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be abl=
e to
 find help in the English world.
=20
 Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps=
 speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'=
m
 really attached to this.
=20
 The French translation for template is "mod=C3=A8le", I think I'll =
use this
 one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my transla=
tion,
 but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
=20
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche"=
.
=20
 morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the= more=20 direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slic= es of=20 bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to h= ave=20 more accurate connotations in this case. Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new wor= ds,=20 translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then L'Acad= =C3=A9mie=20 Fran=C3=A7aise gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff).= I had my=20 desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved m= y=20 vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get=20= translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes (particular= ly when=20 there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I = expect=20 that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them = are=20 more open to just using the English word. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent reply "matovitch" <camille.brugel laposte.net> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
 On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world. Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this. The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk) I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche".
morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have more accurate connotations in this case. Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new words, translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then L'Académie Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I had my desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I expect that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them are more open to just using the English word. - Jonathan M Davis
"Intervalle" ? What about the range translation ?
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 09:53, matovitch a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
 Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' >>
into French,
 for that matter into any other language?
 I've still not translated the chapter about template so I > have not
decided anything yet.
 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate >
speaking/reading about
 computer science with people who use three English works by > French
 sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to > be
able to
 find help in the English world.
 Also, using French words when speaking about computer > science
helps
 speaking about computer science with people who are not into > it, I'm
 really attached to this.
 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think > I'll
use this
 one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my >
translation,
 but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for >
"tranche". morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have more accurate connotations in this case. Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new words, translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then L'Académie Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I had my desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I expect that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them are more open to just using the English word. - Jonathan M Davis
"Intervalle" ? What about the range translation ?
I think the translation for "range" in French is "intervalle". It is what I chose for Ali's book. tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than "morceau", though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider :-). As for importing new words from English, I'm all into it as far as the term is Frenchified and its pronounciation adapted, if no word in French is suitable. French people are bad at pronouncing English, and an English word that hasn't been adopted widely as is feels weird to me. I don't know if French has a more limited vocabulary, I don't think so. But creation of new words can be less natural in some situations because we don't have such mechanisms as taking a noun and use it as a verb (like "google"). Verbize nouns (i.e. adding a suitable suffix) could be done but it seems less usual in French than in English. Some technical words have their dedicated French translation but the English word is more used as the academic translation seems really too weird for many people and make people laugh or not undertand when they are used. This is the case for "bitoduc", which is a translation of pipeline. French people rather use "pipeline", with the English pronounciation or with a Frenchified pronounciation. "bitoduc" seems to be a numeric analogy to "aqueduc" (a tube, pipe that transports water), "gazoduc" (for gas) or "oleoduc" (for petrol) but "bitoduc" sounds laughable for many people (likely because "bite", wich sound the same as "bit", is a bad word meaning "dick"). "Pipeline" is really a French word, so people use it for translating "pipeline" in computer science. I recently discovered http://bitoduc.fr/ for suggestions when translating technical word. Some are great, some tend to make people laugh or look weird. The Office québécois de la langue française is the Quebec counterpart of the Académie Française and in my humble opinion, is playing a great role in the development of the French language. They notably introduced "courriel" for "e-mail", "pourriel" for "spam", "clavarder" ("clavier" + "bavarder") for chat, but French people just tend to use the English word, or don't even know the existence of the French word (this is the case for "clavarder", which most French seem to find original, beautiful or amusing but don't use. We use "chat", "tchat" or sometimes "discuter sur Internet"). I don't know how French speaking Canadian use these words, I think they tend to use less anglicisms and be more attached to the French language than French people themselves. They even replaced the "Stop" sign on roads by a "Arrêt" sign on roads, which French people didn't do. However, they also have their own anglicisms (e.g. they translate "regular" into "régulier", which has a different meaning in French).
Nov 09 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/9/13 1:49 AM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 09:53, matovitch a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
 Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' >>
into French,
 for that matter into any other language?
 I've still not translated the chapter about template so I > have
not
 decided anything yet.
 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate >
speaking/reading about
 computer science with people who use three English works by > French
 sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to > be
able to
 find help in the English world.
 Also, using French words when speaking about computer > science
helps
 speaking about computer science with people who are not into > it,
I'm
 really attached to this.
 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think > I'll
use this
 one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my >
translation,
 but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for >
"tranche". morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have more accurate connotations in this case. Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new words, translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then L'Académie Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I had my desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes (particularly when there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I expect that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them are more open to just using the English word. - Jonathan M Davis
"Intervalle" ? What about the range translation ?
I think the translation for "range" in French is "intervalle". It is what I chose for Ali's book. tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than "morceau", though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider :-).
There's also "coupe". Andrei
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 16:10, Andrei Alexandrescu a écrit :
 On 11/9/13 1:49 AM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than "morceau",
 though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider :-).
There's also "coupe".
"coupe" is great, I like it. With "tranche", I can't help thinking about a cake or a pie, even if also applies to bread. However, "coupe" implies a loss of dimension: we go from 3D to 2D, or from 2D to 1D. It's more like "(cross-)section" in English. What do you think ?
 Andrei
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 15:36:08 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 16:10, Andrei Alexandrescu a écrit :
 On 11/9/13 1:49 AM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than 
 "morceau",
 though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider 
 :-).
There's also "coupe".
"coupe" is great, I like it. With "tranche", I can't help thinking about a cake or a pie, even if also applies to bread. However, "coupe" implies a loss of dimension: we go from 3D to 2D, or from 2D to 1D. It's more like "(cross-)section" in English. What do you think ?
 Andrei
I think coupe is really cut (or section as you say), while tranche is really slice.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 15:36:08 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 16:10, Andrei Alexandrescu a écrit :
 On 11/9/13 1:49 AM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than 
 "morceau",
 though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider 
 :-).
There's also "coupe".
"coupe" is great, I like it. With "tranche", I can't help thinking about a cake or a pie, even if also applies to bread.
It is good, because this is what a slice is in english :D Tranche is probably the closest term in term of translation. "Intervale" is also quite good. Especially for those who learnt math in french, like a big part of your intended audience will probably have. "coupe" not really, as it refers more to the gap between the slice then the slice themselves.
 However, "coupe" implies a loss of dimension: we go from 3D to 
 2D, or from 2D to 1D. It's more like "(cross-)section" in 
 English.

 What do you think ?
Yes. "coupe" is not the right word here.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "monarch_dodra" <monarchdodra gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
 On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for 
 "tranche".
morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have more accurate connotations in this case. - Jonathan M Davis
French myself too, but I consider myself part of the English community. My personal feeling is that when it comes to translating technical jargon, it is sometimes best to just keep the original word, explain/learn what it means, and stick with that. This is because the "words" are already loaded with more meaning than what basic English gives them, for example, "range"/"interval". Or "aggregate" or what not. All words with very specific meanings in the context of a specific *programming* language, that transcends the English language itself. If you "translate" those words, you are actually creating new words, which will require people to associate a new meaning to said word, when the original English word was perfectly fine for it. The japanese seemed good at doing these kind of things when I was there, talking about things like "regista", or whatnot. On the contrary, the French seem to like *everything* to get translated, to the point where the French themselves get confused by the double standard. For example, for "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile". I'm French myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't they just keep "stack"/"heap"? That's what I feel like anyways. Explaining things in your local language is fine, but if technical words get translated, oftentimes, you lose more from the loss of the context specific definition, then the gain from replacing it with a word in your own language, but with no added definition.
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 10:56, monarch_dodra a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for > "tranche".
morceau?
I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have more accurate connotations in this case. - Jonathan M Davis
French myself too, but I consider myself part of the English community. My personal feeling is that when it comes to translating technical jargon, it is sometimes best to just keep the original word, explain/learn what it means, and stick with that. This is because the "words" are already loaded with more meaning than what basic English gives them, for example, "range"/"interval". Or "aggregate" or what not. All words with very specific meanings in the context of a specific *programming* language, that transcends the English language itself. If you "translate" those words, you are actually creating new words, which will require people to associate a new meaning to said word, when the original English word was perfectly fine for it. The japanese seemed good at doing these kind of things when I was there, talking about things like "regista", or whatnot. On the contrary, the French seem to like *everything* to get translated, to the point where the French themselves get confused by the double standard. For example, for "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile". I'm French myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't they just keep "stack"/"heap"?
Same problem in English, you need to remember the meaning of each word. More different words are heap and queue, which translate into "pile" and "file" in French, no problem for me in both languages. And I like the use of French word here. French computer science lessons with too much English words would be difficult to follow in my opinion. "pile" and "file" are easy to understand, because we can imagine "a heap of plates" ("une pile d'assiettes") or "une file d'attente" (... a "queue"), where the first in is the first out. Problem is, most technical term appear in English because technical people speak in English to be understood across the world. I think each language should get an appropriate translation of these words, and a suitable translation for this new word could be the word itself, with a writing and a pronunciation more "natural" than the direct English word, if the English word didn't existed in the first place or has no translation in other languages. Context is then retrieved when the word is used in a specific domain. Often, everyday life English words like "slice" were used to refer to a technical concept, and then the usage became familiar in the domain (the "context" is now there). I think all languages can do the same, that's why I think translation instead of just importing the English word is right in this situation.
 That's what I feel like anyways. Explaining things in your local
 language is fine, but if technical words get translated, oftentimes, you
 lose more from the loss of the context specific definition, then the
 gain from replacing it with a word in your own language, but with no
 added definition.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 01:56 AM, monarch_dodra wrote:

You make very good points. However, some technical words are begging to 
be translated otherwise they hide the actual concept behind them. One 
example is "integral". A Turkish person may guess that it is perhaps 
related to automobiles (Lancia Integrale, anyone). Other than that, the 
nature of "integral" will always be hidden until the topic is studied 
and digested.

Nowadays there is a made-up Turkish word instead, tümlev, which at least 
carries the meaning.

 For example, for "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile".
 I'm French myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't
 they just keep "stack"/"heap"?
Those specific words are bigger problems in Turkish because the chosen words are way too close: "yığıt"/"yığın" and I think I got the order right. :p Ali
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 09:56:54 UTC, monarch_dodra wrote:
 On the contrary, the French seem to like *everything* to get 
 translated, to the point where the French themselves get 
 confused by the double standard. For example, for 
 "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile". I'm French 
 myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't 
 they just keep "stack"/"heap"?
Heap = tas Stack = pile Queue = file d'attente
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

 Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding 
 new words,
 translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and 
 then L'Académie
 Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new 
 stuff). I had my
 desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely 
 improved my
 vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem 
 to get
 translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes 
 (particularly when
 there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation 
 available). But I expect
 that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some 
 of them are
 more open to just using the English word.
I can tell you that when I talk about programming or computers in Swedish I use a lot of English words. Many words don't have a good translation and just sound weird. If I would to translate "slice" into Swedish it would probably be "skiva", especially if we're talking about a slice of bread. But if I would say "skiva" when talking about programming to someone else they would probably say "WHAT?" and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm using all my software in English. One time I was going to use Photoshop at school and they had the Swedish version. I couldn't find a single thing by looking at the names. Just hoping you're remembering the locations of the buttons and the menus. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:28, Jacob Carlborg a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new
 words,
 translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then
 L'Académie
 Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I
 had my
 desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my
 vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get
 translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes
 (particularly when
 there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I
 expect
 that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them
 are
 more open to just using the English word.
I can tell you that when I talk about programming or computers in Swedish I use a lot of English words. Many words don't have a good translation and just sound weird. If I would to translate "slice" into Swedish it would probably be "skiva", especially if we're talking about a slice of bread. But if I would say "skiva" when talking about programming to someone else they would probably say "WHAT?" and have no idea what I'm talking about.
We surely would get the same kind of reaction for "tranche" in French. But you are not sure people will understand "slice" correctly, even if they can be kind of familiar with the word (e.g. because of the slice method of the Array object in Javascript). To understand "slice", maybe some people will even try to translate it. I think it is just a matter of habit, and your Photoshop example tend to confirm it. When you used the word one time and explained it, people will start to understand you, and as you use it, people will get used to it and start employ it. Or not, an then it is time to fall back to the Enligh version of the word. So why being concerned by trying the native word first? Well, because it is native and it can help the appropriation of the concept behind it for people which don't master it. Maybe I'm wrong. For slice, it seems it is a concept to be defined for each programming language anyway. It still remains important to give the English word in lessons to be able to communicate with the rest of the word, and to be understood by people who already know the English word. Agreed.
 I'm using all my software in English. One time I was going to use
 Photoshop at school and they had the Swedish version. I couldn't find a
 single thing by looking at the names. Just hoping you're remembering the
 locations of the buttons and the menus.

 --
 /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:38, Raphaël Jakse a écrit :
 people which
who*
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:38:52 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 We surely would get the same kind of reaction for "tranche" in 
 French. But you are not sure people will understand "slice" 
 correctly, even if they can be kind of familiar with the word 
 (e.g. because of the slice method of the Array object in 
 Javascript). To understand "slice", maybe some people will even 
 try to translate it.
Slices happen to be bit different in every language. A slice in D and Ruby does not have the same behavior. Although I could say the same about classes, but I wouldn't feel the same need to explain classes.
 I think it is just a matter of habit, and your Photoshop 
 example tend to confirm it.
 When you used the word one time and explained it, people will 
 start to understand you, and as you use it, people will get 
 used to it and start employ it. Or not, an then it is time to 
 fall back to the Enligh version of the word. So why being 
 concerned by trying the native word first? Well, because it is 
 native and it can help the appropriation of the concept behind 
 it for people which don't master it. Maybe I'm wrong.
Another example is "e-mail". We do have an official translation for that, "e-post", which is a direct translation. But most people use "mail", yes the English word. Which actually is a bit weird. This is also true for people how don't have any interest in computers at all, but use computers. What is getting more common now is also to use a Swedish spelling for "mail", which would be "mejl". I'm thinking like this. Many of the words used in computer science have a meaning outside computer science which existed long before, i.e. stream, thread and so on. When I'm referring to the concept from computer science I'm using the English word and when I refer to the word out side of the computer world I'm using the Swedish word. When referring to a stream of water I would use "bäck" which is the translation of "stream" but I could never, ever use that word when referring to a stream sending data over the network. The only reason I could use "bäck" in programming if I was creating a class for a game which referred to an actual stream of water, but since I always programming in English I would use "stream" anyway. Thread on the other I could use the Swedish translation "tråd". But I would most often use the English word there as well. To me it adds context. If I would say just "thread" to someone that knows programming he/she would instantly know I'm talking about threads in programming. If I on the other hand would just say "tråd" it could mean something else, like a thread used for sewing.
 For slice, it seems it is a concept to be defined for each 
 programming language anyway.

 It still remains important to give the English word in lessons 
 to be able to communicate with the rest of the word, and to be 
 understood by people who already know the English word. Agreed.
Absolutely.
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 03:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 Many of the words used in computer science have a meaning
 outside computer science which existed long before, i.e.
 stream, thread and so on. When I'm referring to the concept
 from computer science I'm using the English word and when I
 refer to the word out side of the computer world I'm using the
 Swedish word.
The funny thing is, the English words like "slice" and "stream" make more sense in Swedish in a technical context because they are detached from their actual meanings. That is not the case for most English speakers because they can't help but think of a slice of bread, pizza, cake, etc., at least initially. :) Ali
Nov 09 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 18:59, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 03:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

  > Many of the words used in computer science have a meaning
  > outside computer science which existed long before, i.e.
  > stream, thread and so on. When I'm referring to the concept
  > from computer science I'm using the English word and when I
  > refer to the word out side of the computer world I'm using the
  > Swedish word.

 The funny thing is, the English words like "slice" and "stream" make
 more sense in Swedish in a technical context because they are detached
 from their actual meanings. That is not the case for most English
 speakers because they can't help but think of a slice of bread, pizza,
 cake, etc., at least initially. :)
I am not alone with my cakes ! :-)
 Ali
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:43:21 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet. My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world. Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this. The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk) I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche". That can sound weird but what "slice" really means, unless I am mistaken. If somebody has a better translation, please suggest! I'm absolutely not comfortable with "une slice" or "un slice". Some French people will pronounce the "i" "i", some other will pronounce it "aïe". That's not neat and that will not ease the reading of the translation. Raphaël.
When it come to translation, I have to pull my secret card, my friend Pierre : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xalkad_motus_sport He is geek enough to know some programming basics (he for instance extracted the 3 10 letters words that exist in french that give as much different letters as possible in preparation of the show) and as you can see, have probably more vocabulary than all of us combined (he happen to be a scrabble champion). I'll ask him and see what he think. template is french friendly enough to keep. "modèle" is kind of confusing. Slice is a difficult one. Tranche is probably the best I can think of now, but I don't think slice have any direct translation in french.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:43:21 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have 
 not decided anything yet.

 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate 
 speaking/reading about computer science with people who use 
 three English works by French sentance) and give the English 
 counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the 
 English world.

 Also, using French words when speaking about computer science 
 helps speaking about computer science with people who are not 
 into it, I'm really attached to this.

 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll 
 use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" 
 in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm 
 open to talk)
It sounds strange to translate a keyword. If I put it like this, it would be ok to translate a keyword when talking about it like a topic, i.e. a chapter called "Templates" (Modèle). But when referring to the actual keyword, what one need to write in the code, it seems wrong to translate it. So if you would write something like this: Templates are ... and the keyword used is "template". The first "template" would be translate but not the second. Does that make sense. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:13, Jacob Carlborg a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:43:21 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not
 decided anything yet.

 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about
 computer science with people who use three English works by French
 sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able
 to find help in the English world.

 Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps
 speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm
 really attached to this.

 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this
 one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my
 translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
It sounds strange to translate a keyword. If I put it like this, it would be ok to translate a keyword when talking about it like a topic, i.e. a chapter called "Templates" (Modèle). But when referring to the actual keyword, what one need to write in the code, it seems wrong to translate it. So if you would write something like this: Templates are ... and the keyword used is "template". The first "template" would be translate but not the second. Does that make sense.
Yes, it makes sense. I thought about it and got to the same conclusion as you. I would title the chapter "Les modèles (templates)" with "templates" in italic, or "Les modèles et le mot clé template" with "template" in a monospace font. keywords are not translated and are writen in a monospace font (or whatever style dedicated for writing code) and concepts, ideas, topic or whatever, get translated.
 --
 /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent reply "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:24:18 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 Yes, it makes sense. I thought about it and got to the same 
 conclusion as you.

 I would title the chapter "Les modèles (templates)" with 
 "templates" in italic, or "Les modèles et le mot clé template" 
 with "template" in a monospace font.

 keywords are not translated and are writen in a monospace font 
 (or whatever style dedicated for writing code) and concepts, 
 ideas, topic or whatever, get translated.
Sounds good. I like the idea of putting the English word in the title as well. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:39, Jacob Carlborg a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:24:18 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 Yes, it makes sense. I thought about it and got to the same conclusion
 as you.

 I would title the chapter "Les modèles (templates)" with "templates"
 in italic, or "Les modèles et le mot clé template" with "template" in
 a monospace font.

 keywords are not translated and are writen in a monospace font (or
 whatever style dedicated for writing code) and concepts, ideas, topic
 or whatever, get translated.
Sounds good. I like the idea of putting the English word in the title as well.
For templates, the English word is so widespread and "Modèle" (maybe also "template") is such an abstract word that putting the English word in the title seems necessary and useful and that could ease comprehension and searches in the tutorial :-)
 --
 /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent reply "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:47:45 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 For templates, the English word is so widespread and "Modèle" 
 (maybe also "template") is such an abstract word that putting 
 the English word in the title seems necessary and useful and 
 that could ease comprehension and searches in the tutorial :-)
And modèle isn't even a widely accepted translation. I have seen the word patron in books. That one is even less agreed upon than modèle, and my french C++ programmers commonly use template. Another option is to use the adjective générique. But you then need to join it to a name, like classe, or méthode, or fonction.
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-09 21:08, SomeDude wrote:

 And modèle isn't even a widely accepted translation. I have seen the
 word patron in books. That one is even less agreed upon than modèle, and
 my french C++ programmers commonly use template.

 Another option is to use the adjective générique. But you then need to
 join it to a name, like classe, or méthode, or fonction.
That sounds like generics. Templates is one way to implement generics. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 21:08, SomeDude a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:47:45 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 For templates, the English word is so widespread and "Modèle" (maybe
 also "template") is such an abstract word that putting the English
 word in the title seems necessary and useful and that could ease
 comprehension and searches in the tutorial :-)
And modèle isn't even a widely accepted translation. I have seen the word patron in books. That one is even less agreed upon than modèle, and my french C++ programmers commonly use template. Another option is to use the adjective générique. But you then need to join it to a name, like classe, or méthode, or fonction.
I like this. This is to be considered.
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Olivier Pisano" <olivier.pisano laposte.net> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:13:42 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll 
 use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" 
 in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm 
 open to talk)
It sounds strange to translate a keyword. If I put it like this, it would be ok to translate a keyword when talking about it like a topic, i.e. a chapter called "Templates" (Modèle). But when referring to the actual keyword, what one need to write in the code, it seems wrong to translate it. So if you would write something like this: Templates are ... and the keyword used is "template".
Most of the time, templates are translated as "templates". I think it is better not to add an additional cognitive indirection by translating the keyword. The worst translation I ever saw for templates in a french C++ book was "patron". It took me a few seconds to realize what it was refering to.
Nov 10 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 10/11/2013 09:31, Olivier Pisano a écrit :
 Most of the time, templates are translated as "templates". I think it is
 better not to add an additional cognitive indirection by translating the
 keyword.

 The worst translation I ever saw for templates in a french C++ book was
 "patron". It took me a few seconds to realize what it was refering to.
I agree for "patron", which is mostly for geometry and can be confused with the concept of "pattern", which might be even more abstract. The additional indirection is true for people who already know the concept and who read a tutorial which didn't translate the word the first time they learned the concept. When I first saw "template", It meant nothing for me because I didn't know the English word. With a French word, I could have understood more easily (at least, I would not have been blocked by an unknown English word). Realizing what the French word refers to for people who already now the concept can be eased by introducing the English word at the same time. What these people will have to do when reading the chapter is to remember that e.g. "modèle" refers to "template". It is more work, but the additional work is not really a problem as they already know the concept. On the other hand, people who don't know the concept won't have the additional work to block on an unknown English word or to translate it. Anyway, the 'template' keyword will appear anywhere in the chapter so the English word will be there.
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Rapha=C3=ABl Jakse <raphael.jakse gmail.com=
wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a =C3=A9crit :

  On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decide=
d
 anything yet.

 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about
 computer science with people who use three English works by French
 sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to
 find help in the English world.
That seems OK.
 Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps
 speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm real=
ly
 attached to this.

 The French translation for template is "mod=C3=A8le", I think I'll use th=
is
 one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation,
 but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)

 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche". That
 can sound weird but what "slice" really means, unless I am mistaken. If
 somebody has a better translation, please suggest!
extrait? partie?
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:43, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
 On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Raphaël Jakse <raphael.jakse gmail.com
 <mailto:raphael.jakse gmail.com>> wrote:

     Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :

         On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:

             I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.


         Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into
         French,
         for that matter into any other language?


     I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not
     decided anything yet.

     My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading
     about computer science with people who use three English works by
     French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to
     be able to find help in the English world.


 That seems OK.


     Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps
     speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm
     really attached to this.

     The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use
     this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my
     translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)

     I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche".
     That can sound weird but what "slice" really means, unless I am
     mistaken. If somebody has a better translation, please suggest!


 extrait?

 partie?
To be considered :-) However, these two words do not seem to imply continuity that "tranche" seems to imply. Maybe we should vote for the translation of this word.
Nov 09 2013
parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 11:51, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 To be considered :-)
 However, these two words do not seem to imply continuity that "tranche" seems
to
 imply.

 Maybe we should vote for the translation of this word.
Non-native French speaker here, but I also think "tranche" makes most sense, both because it's a literal translation of "slice" and because of the subtler implications that you mention here.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Graham Fawcett" <fawcett uwindsor.ca> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:44:06 UTC, Philippe Sigaud 
wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Raphaël Jakse
 I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for 
 "tranche". That
 can sound weird but what "slice" really means, unless I am 
 mistaken. If
 somebody has a better translation, please suggest!
extrait? partie?
"Tranche" seems better to me, because the translation is so direct. The term "slice" isn't any more semantically accurate in English than "tranche" would be in French. We aren't actually "taking a slice" of an array, after all: that would imply that the original array was now missing a piece. :) As a weak francophone, if I saw "tranche" in a french D article, I would know exactly what it meant, while "partie" would seem more ambiguous IMHO. Just my two cents (bien que nous n'avons plus des cents au Canada!), Graham
Nov 09 2013
parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 17:03:38 UTC, Graham Fawcett 
wrote:
 "Tranche" seems better to me, because the translation is so 
 direct.

 The term "slice" isn't any more semantically accurate in 
 English than "tranche" would be in French. We aren't actually 
 "taking a slice" of an array, after all: that would imply that 
 the original array was now missing a piece. :)

 As a weak francophone, if I saw "tranche" in a french D 
 article, I would know exactly what it meant, while "partie" 
 would seem more ambiguous IMHO.

 Just my two cents (bien que nous n'avons plus des cents au 
 Canada!),
 Graham
Pareil. And using too generic words like "partie" may actually make it harder to explain things.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/08/2013 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

 My guideline is to translate everything (I hate
 speaking/reading about computer science with people who use
 three English works by French sentance) and give the English
 counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the
 English world.
Like almost everything else about natural languages, translation is a fascinating topic. Like you, I tried to use all Turkish words. I consulted many online programming dictionaries, asked individual words at Turkish forums, imported from other languages (e.g. "temsilci" for "delegate" from the C# world). The Turkish chapters have an adapted mini dictionary on the left-hand side that contains the English originals of the translations. Here is the template chapter: http://ddili.org/ders/d/sablonlar.html
 The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll
 use this one.
That was one of the funnier translations to Turkish: In order to avoid the foreign word "template", I used another foreign word which comes from another context (architectural drawing tools), "şablon", partly because it is already in use in the C++ world. I would have guessed that it was the transliteration of French "chablon" but "chablon" seems to be a dead word as I can't find it on online dictionaries. :) Google Translate translates it as "şablon" to Turkish but that's it. Anyway...
 I had a really hard time translating "slice".
Yup, that and many others... Fascinating topic... :) Ali
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 09:26 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 "şablon" ... transliteration of French "chablon"
Correcting myself: I think it is actually orthographic transcription, not transliteration. Ali
Nov 09 2013
parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 18:42, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 11/09/2013 09:26 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote:

  > "şablon" ... transliteration of French "chablon"

 Correcting myself: I think it is actually orthographic transcription, not
 transliteration.
Welsh is great for this: for example, cinema, taxi and ambulance are rendered as "sinema", "tacsi" and "ambiwlans" :-)
Nov 09 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 01:22 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:

 Welsh is great for this: for example, cinema, taxi and ambulance are
 rendered as "sinema", "tacsi" and "ambiwlans" :-)
Good stuff! We should all get together and share these stories over beer. :p And the Turkish versions: sinema, taksi, ambülans. Ali
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 18:26, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 11/08/2013 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

  > My guideline is to translate everything (I hate
  > speaking/reading about computer science with people who use
  > three English works by French sentance) and give the English
  > counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the
  > English world.

 Like almost everything else about natural languages, translation is a
 fascinating topic.
I completely agree :-)
 Like you, I tried to use all Turkish words. I consulted many online
 programming dictionaries, asked individual words at Turkish forums,
 imported from other languages (e.g. "temsilci" for "delegate" from the
 C# world). The Turkish chapters have an adapted mini dictionary on the
 left-hand side that contains the English originals of the translations.
 Here is the template chapter:

    http://ddili.org/ders/d/sablonlar.html

  > The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll
  > use this one.

 That was one of the funnier translations to Turkish: In order to avoid
 the foreign word "template", I used another foreign word which comes
 from another context (architectural drawing tools), "şablon", partly
 because it is already in use in the C++ world. I would have guessed that
 it was the transliteration of French "chablon" but "chablon" seems to be
 a dead word as I can't find it on online dictionaries. :) Google
 Translate translates it as "şablon" to Turkish but that's it. Anyway...
I didn't know this word. My dictionary ("Le Petit Larousse 2006") only says that is a Swiss word for "pochoir", which is a "stencil", which indeed can be considered as a template. online Larousse gives another definition of the word: "un chablon" is a partially assembled movement (clockwork) http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/chablon/14404
  > I had a really hard time translating "slice".

 Yup, that and many others... Fascinating topic... :)
Natural languages, translation and teaching are fascinating topic :-)
 Ali
Nov 09 2013
parent "eles" <eles eles.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 20:15:19 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 Le 09/11/2013 18:26, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 11/08/2013 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 I didn't know this word. My dictionary ("Le Petit Larousse 
 2006") only says that is a Swiss word for "pochoir", which is a 
 "stencil", which indeed can be considered as a template.
In Switzerland, it came from German (and, maybe, in Turkish too): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schablone French equivalent: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pochoir Another choice: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_(programmation)
Nov 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:21 AM, John J <john.joyus gmail.com> wrote:

 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:

 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
Not the keyword, but the, er, concept, the idea that you can write 'code blueprints'. 'range' is also an idea that could be translated (or not, btw).
Nov 09 2013
parent "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:42:13 UTC, Philippe Sigaud 
wrote:

 Not the keyword, but the, er, concept, the idea that you can 
 write 'code
 blueprints'. 'range' is also an idea that could be translated 
 (or not, btw).
Range is just a concept. There's nothing in D that you can point at and say "this is a range", not in the same sense as a class at least or a function. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 09.11.2013 08:21, schrieb John J:
 On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' into French, for that matter into any other language?
It is a cultural thing, so whoever is translating needs to be aware how people expect technical documentation to look like. For example, in Portugal and African Portuguese speaking countries, we rather mix English technical terms with Portuguese even when a translation does exist, whereas in Brazil they tend to choose other words. My experience leaving in Germany tells me that you only hear people using German official terms in very traditional (aka old) companies, the new generations mix English technical terms with German. In Spain, you tend to get almost everything translated as well. Then you also have the problem when a technical term has a translation, it might not be the same across all variations of the language. Spreasheet is "Folha de Cálcul"o in Portugal and "Planilha Electrônica" in Brazil, as an example. -- Paulo
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> wrote:

 For example, in Portugal and African Portuguese speaking countries, we
 rather mix English technical terms with Portuguese even when a translation
 does exist, whereas in Brazil they tend to choose other words.

 My experience leaving in Germany tells me that you only hear people using
 German official terms in very traditional (aka old) companies, the new
 generations mix English technical terms with German.
I remember having friends coming from North Africa and speaking among themselves in Arabic, interspersed with French words, enough for me to get a global feeling of what was being said. Most interesting was that mathematical terms (that was during my studies) were all in French. We are all adaptive beasts.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 12:05, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
 I remember having friends coming from North Africa and speaking among
themselves
 in Arabic, interspersed with French words, enough for me to get a global
feeling
 of what was being said. Most interesting was that mathematical terms (that was
 during my studies) were all in French.
It's a consequence of the history of the education system -- with Arabic being the native language but French being the language of colonial administration and therefore the language of higher education, particularly things like maths. That split has persisted post-independence in much the same way that Latin persisted as the language of scholarship after the fall of the Roman empire. You have exactly the same thing occurring in e.g. India with English -- and of course the English language itself is the long-term consequence of a similar blend between native (Anglo-Saxon) and elite (Norman French) languages. Oh, on the mathematical terms -- when I was an undergraduate I had a professor who was Chinese, and one time I heard him on the phone to a Chinese colleague with the conversation going something like this: "[incomprehensible] x over y, [incomprehensible] integral of f dx ..."
Nov 09 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-09 13:50, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:

 You have exactly the same thing occurring in e.g. India with English --
 and of course the English language itself is the long-term consequence
 of a similar blend between native (Anglo-Saxon) and elite (Norman
 French) languages.
Isn't English the official language in India, or one of them? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 09 2013
parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 14:29, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Isn't English the official language in India, or one of them?
One of them, yes. As I understand it has particular use as a common language for government and higher education.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 07:40, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
 French here also. I'll have a look at this forum!

 As for Ali's book in French, I didn't know there was any translating
 being done. Can we help?
I've been really quiet about it and only Ali and some of my friends knew about it, moslty because of shyness, and lack of time. With the creation of dlang-fr, publishing should become possible in acceptable conditions (openclassrooms, ex "Site du Zér0" not being an option and my home hosting neither) and motivation can come back. I guess proofreading is what is needed for the moment, after preparing the stuff to be published (this should not take too long). Would you or somebody else be eager to proofread this crappy translation to get a great translation of Ali's great work out of it ? Raphaël.
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/08/2013 12:21 PM, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" wrote:

 Unfortunaly, finding resources in french on the web is near impossible,
"Programming in D" is currently being translated to French. I will ping the translator so that he can chime in about the progress. http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ Ali
Nov 08 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:19:04 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 11/08/2013 12:21 PM, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" wrote:

 Unfortunaly, finding resources in french on the web is near
impossible, "Programming in D" is currently being translated to French. I will ping the translator so that he can chime in about the progress. http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ Ali
Good news ! This will be great if the translator took contact with us :)
Nov 08 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 01:09, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" a écrit :
 On Friday, 8 November 2013 at 23:19:04 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 11/08/2013 12:21 PM, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" wrote:

 Unfortunaly, finding resources in french on the web is near
impossible, "Programming in D" is currently being translated to French. I will ping the translator so that he can chime in about the progress. http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ Ali
Good news ! This will be great if the translator took contact with us :)
Hello everybody, I'm the translator of Ali's book. Unfortunately, I've been quite busy these times, and finding time to continue the translation implies motivation. One motivation would be to see the already translated part online. I'm currently translating the "Exception" chapter (which is quite big !) As for finding time itself, I guess I can manage to schedule the translation of one chapter or the half of a big chapter a week. The publication of what is already translated would be extremely motivating. I would be glad to see this translation published on dlang-fr.org. Great initiative Théo ! The creation of dlang-fr could be a major event for the French D community. Bravo! What is needed for this translation to be published is some proofreading. So far, I have only been translating, proofreading has not be done. Theo, we need to get in touch to organize the proofreading and the publication of the translation through dlang-fr, if you are okay.
Nov 08 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:19:47 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
 As for finding time itself, I guess I can manage to schedule 
 the translation of one chapter or the half of a big chapter a 
 week. The publication of what is already translated would be 
 extremely motivating.

 I would be glad to see this translation published on 
 dlang-fr.org. Great initiative Théo ! The creation of dlang-fr 
 could be a major event for the French D community. Bravo!

 What is needed for this translation to be published is some 
 proofreading. So far, I have only been translating, 
 proofreading has not be done.

 Theo, we need to get in touch to organize the proofreading and 
 the publication of the translation through dlang-fr, if you are 
 okay.
It would be great to publish your work on dlang-fr ! Please take contact via email, the forum ( or jabber ) so that we can talk about it.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
 french as well (although living in US).
 A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French Engineering
 schools ... instead of ocaml.
 I'll probably stick mostly to US forums though to avoid splitting.
I'm not French, but I lived in France and the French-speaking part of Switerzland for two years, so I'm fairly fluent (though it's been about 10 years now, so I'm sure that my French is getting worse). So, if I participated in such a forum, it would probably be primarily to brush up on my French, but I'm busy enough that I expect that I won't do anything with it (I'm having a difficult enough time keeping up with this one). I wish the best of luck to those in the French forum though. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Philippe Sigaud <philippe.sigaud gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
 french as well (although living in US).
 A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French
Engineering
 schools ... instead of ocaml.
Did they teach you ocaml? I had C, with maybe a dash of C++.
 I'll probably stick mostly to US forums though to avoid splitting.
Sure. And the discussions are too interesting here :-) On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:
 I'm not French, but I lived in France and the French-speaking part of
 Switerzland for two years, so I'm fairly fluent (though it's been about 10
 years now, so I'm sure that my French is getting worse). So, if I
 participated
 in such a forum, it would probably be primarily to brush up on my French,
 but
 I'm busy enough that I expect that I won't do anything with it (I'm having
 a
 difficult enough time keeping up with this one). I wish the best of luck to
 those in the French forum though.
Reading your previous post in French gave me a moment of disorientation :-)
 - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 08 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 07:43, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
     On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
      > french as well (although living in US).
      > A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French
     Engineering
      > schools ... instead of ocaml.


 Did they teach you ocaml? I had C, with maybe a dash of C++.
I've been taught OCaml (to introduce functional programming) and C at the university. No C++, but ADA. Java is also taught.
      > I'll probably stick mostly to US forums though to avoid splitting.


 Sure. And the discussions are too interesting here :-)
I think it would be great to have a French speaking topic on Digital Mars' newgroups with a web version. I don't really like Web forum, I don't find them easy to use and to follow, but a Web version is necessary for people who are not used to newsgroups. French people who speak English would be able to read French as well as English newsgroups.
Nov 08 2013
parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 09.11.2013 08:50, schrieb Raphaël Jakse:
 Le 09/11/2013 07:43, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
     On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
      > french as well (although living in US).
      > A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French
     Engineering
      > schools ... instead of ocaml.


 Did they teach you ocaml? I had C, with maybe a dash of C++.
I've been taught OCaml (to introduce functional programming) and C at the university. No C++, but ADA. Java is also taught.
Actually I find very positive that people get introduced to ML family of languages. It is a nice way to learn functional programming. My university had a strong focus in ML (Caml Light back then) and Prolog as well, so I have beed brain damaged since mid 90's always looking forward to using those concepts in the industry. :) -- Paulo
Nov 09 2013
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:31:05 UTC, matovitch wrote:
 Thanks. I forked the D template tutorial of Philipp Sigaud to 
 start a french translation : 
 https://github.com/matovitch/D-templates-tutorial. Feel free to 
 clone ! :-)

 Templates are a strong features of D and I think they deserve 
 to be promoted.
It would be great if you could subscribe the french forum and start a topic about this, we can talk about this and help :) Also Raphaël Jakse please contact me :)
Nov 09 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgSmFrc2U=?= <raphael.jakse gmail.com> writes:
Le 09/11/2013 11:36, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" a écrit :
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:31:05 UTC, matovitch wrote:
 Thanks. I forked the D template tutorial of Philipp Sigaud to start a
 french translation :
 https://github.com/matovitch/D-templates-tutorial. Feel free to clone
 ! :-)

 Templates are a strong features of D and I think they deserve to be
 promoted.
It would be great if you could subscribe the french forum and start a topic about this, we can talk about this and help :) Also Raphaël Jakse please contact me :)
I should send you an email in the afternoon, or as soon as possible ;-)
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:32:26 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Am 09.11.2013 08:50, schrieb Raphaël Jakse:
 Le 09/11/2013 07:43, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
    On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
     > french as well (although living in US).
     > A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in 
 French
    Engineering
     > schools ... instead of ocaml.


 Did they teach you ocaml? I had C, with maybe a dash of C++.
I've been taught OCaml (to introduce functional programming) and C at the university. No C++, but ADA. Java is also taught.
Actually I find very positive that people get introduced to ML family of languages. It is a nice way to learn functional programming. My university had a strong focus in ML (Caml Light back then) and Prolog as well, so I have beed brain damaged since mid 90's always looking forward to using those concepts in the industry. :) -- Paulo
I went throws OCaml when studying. It has to be noted that I already know several languages by myself at this point. I do agree that learning OCaml is a really good thing, but the way it has been done to me wasn't that profitable. The fact is that teachers didn't knew much about functional programming, how it differs from other paradigms, the pro and cons. Nothing of that was discussed, so all student that knew some programming, but not functional were left wondering what is that shit were i can't update the value of a variable. I has to learn why this is good much later and by myself. I'm pretty sure most people see it as the weird and useless language we learn in the beginning of our studies. Many school are switching back to C.
Nov 09 2013
parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 09.11.2013 21:27, schrieb deadalnix:
 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:32:26 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
 Am 09.11.2013 08:50, schrieb Raphaël Jakse:
 Le 09/11/2013 07:43, Philippe Sigaud a écrit :
    On Friday, November 08, 2013 20:16:44 Timothee Cour wrote:
     > french as well (although living in US).
     > A great start would be lobbying so that they teach D in French
    Engineering
     > schools ... instead of ocaml.


 Did they teach you ocaml? I had C, with maybe a dash of C++.
I've been taught OCaml (to introduce functional programming) and C at the university. No C++, but ADA. Java is also taught.
Actually I find very positive that people get introduced to ML family of languages. It is a nice way to learn functional programming. My university had a strong focus in ML (Caml Light back then) and Prolog as well, so I have beed brain damaged since mid 90's always looking forward to using those concepts in the industry. :) -- Paulo
I went throws OCaml when studying. It has to be noted that I already know several languages by myself at this point. I do agree that learning OCaml is a really good thing, but the way it has been done to me wasn't that profitable. The fact is that teachers didn't knew much about functional programming, how it differs from other paradigms, the pro and cons. Nothing of that was discussed, so all student that knew some programming, but not functional were left wondering what is that shit were i can't update the value of a variable. I has to learn why this is good much later and by myself. I'm pretty sure most people see it as the weird and useless language we learn in the beginning of our studies. Many school are switching back to C.
I see, we had quite a good selection of languages in the university. The university had standard Pascal, C, C++, Caml Light, Prolog, Java for project assignments, besides the overview of many others in history of programming languages and compiler design lectures. Caml Light was used mostly in the lectures about lambda calculus, language design. However, for the implementation of a real compiler, we were required to use Java with JavaCC, because using functional/logic languages would make the task too easy for us. :) -- Paulo
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Xavier Bigand <flamaros.xavier gmail.com> writes:
Le 08/11/2013 21:21, "Théo B" <munrek gmx.com>" a écrit :
 Hello there,

 I am a French student who discovered D about a year ago. I used it for a
 few personal projects, and I really enjoyed it as a great tool to make
 powerful native-apps easily.

 Unfortunaly, finding resources in french on the web is near impossible,
 and I think this is a real problem for the language to expand ( in terms
 of new users, and activity ). Another problem is that there is no french
 community to exchange and promote it, so I decided to create a
 french-speaking website with resources and forums.

 http://dlang-fr.org/
 http://forum.dlang-fr.org/

 There is also a chan on freenode : #d-fr

 Actually the server and the services are running, and are just waiting
 for people :)

 My main goal is promoting and translating resources about the technology
 ( library reference, tutorials, and maybe ali's book ? ), and maintain a
 great place to start for all the beginners in programming, and also a
 great exchange spot for more experienced programmers.

 What we need now is nice and motivated guys to help me building the
 resources and organizating about future translations. If you speak
 french you are of course welcome to come ; even just exchanging on the
 forum would be a great help for us.

 I think D worth spreading, and so I hope this will be helpful.

 Please excuse my awful english, this is not my native language ( well
 this is not a reason, I'm just bad ).

 Regards,
 Théo.
French here
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 12:02:17 UTC, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Wouldn't it be better to concentrate efforts on making the 
 official D site and the forum interface multilingual? (and also 
 incidentally add a French forum here?) Then this system can be 
 expanded to other languages easily.
Well, dlang.org is a very good reference website, but as a beginner you can't use it easily to start programming in D. I want to make dlang-fr accessible to all the beginners with tutorials and easy-to-follow documentation. I think dlang.org must keep like it is now ; a good advanced-programmer website, that make development of the language easy to maintain with advanced reference and docs. In my view that is not its job to promote D and make it accessible to beginners, but maybe I'm wrong ?
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 13:02, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Wouldn't it be better to concentrate efforts on making the official D site and
 the forum interface multilingual? (and also incidentally add a French forum
 here?) Then this system can be expanded to other languages easily.
Raises a good point: how can one reliably provide multilingual DDoc?
Nov 09 2013
parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-11-09 13:40:10 +0000, Joseph Rushton Wakeling 
<joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> said:

 On 09/11/13 13:02, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Wouldn't it be better to concentrate efforts on making the official D site and
 the forum interface multilingual? (and also incidentally add a French forum
 here?) Then this system can be expanded to other languages easily.
Raises a good point: how can one reliably provide multilingual DDoc?
Well, there are two kinds of DDoc. Whole pages and symbol descriptions. For whole pages, well you just duplicate the structure in a "fr" subfolder (and in the build script make sure buttons are added to switch from one language to another). For symbol descriptions (including modules), I think the best way would be to have a translation table of some sort using the symbol's fully qualified name as a key. And also ideally a system that tells you which documentation snippets have been updated in the current build since the last translation in a given language. This system could also point out whole pages that needs to be updated (preferably with a diff view of some sort). It's more work at first than creating a separate site, but in the end it'll pay off by being easier to keep up to date. Also, the main site being available in multiple languages is more welcoming that splitting communities on various satellite sites each doing their own thing. (Also note that I have nothing against satellite sites doing their own thing. I'm just making the point that if someone wants to take a significant part of dlang.org and translate it, it'd be best if the translation was available on dlang.org in a well structured manner.) -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/9/2013 4:02 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Take my website as an example. For almost any page (for instance the
 D/Objective-C project[1]), you have a link at the top right to go to the French
 equivalent of that page (which is a good proper translation, NOT an automatic
 one). It's very handy when you can find a page in a language and need the
 equivalent in another to post as a link somewhere.
I want to point out that all the dlang.org pages have a "Translate" button on the left side. It's an automatic one, sure, but it'll help.
Nov 09 2013
parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 18:45:10 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/9/2013 4:02 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Take my website as an example. For almost any page (for 
 instance the
 D/Objective-C project[1]), you have a link at the top right to 
 go to the French
 equivalent of that page (which is a good proper translation, 
 NOT an automatic
 one). It's very handy when you can find a page in a language 
 and need the
 equivalent in another to post as a link somewhere.
I want to point out that all the dlang.org pages have a "Translate" button on the left side. It's an automatic one, sure, but it'll help.
The french one is a giant KAMOULOX. Quite hilarious, but not terribly useful.
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 12:02:17 UTC, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Wouldn't it be better to concentrate efforts on making the 
 official D site and the forum interface multilingual? (and also 
 incidentally add a French forum here?) Then this system can be 
 expanded to other languages easily.
The french translation of the site is hillarious right now. The translator understand "native" as in native american. You must try it is you understand some french.
Nov 09 2013
parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.ca> writes:
On 2013-11-10 03:22:14 +0000, "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> said:

 On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 12:02:17 UTC, Michel Fortin wrote:
 Wouldn't it be better to concentrate efforts on making the official D 
 site and the forum interface multilingual? (and also incidentally add a 
 French forum here?) Then this system can be expanded to other languages 
 easily.
The french translation of the site is hillarious right now. The translator understand "native" as in native american. You must try it is you understand some french.
I tried it. It's a useless gimmick. I've said so many years ago. I'd actually find it rather embarrassing to have a widget like this on my own site because I'd feel like I was giving some endorsement that totally ridiculous and for the most part unhelpful translation. That's definitely not what I want to see when I say the site should be multilingual. The site should allow human translators to translate the content and make that translated content available to visitors (with a widget similar to the google one, or a menu on the side like on Wikipedia). That's not unlike what the PHP Manual is doing: http://www.php.net/manual/en/pdostatement.fetch.php http://www.php.net/manual/fr/pdostatement.fetch.php http://www.php.net/manual/zh/pdostatement.fetch.php http://www.php.net/manual/ja/pdostatement.fetch.php Of course then you need people translating the content. But that won't come before there's some means to put these translations online as part of the site build process. And finally the web forum should also allow the user to select its user interface language, and there should be a forum dedicated to discussions in French (and possibly others for other languages). At least that's the way I'd make things welcoming for non-english speakers. -- Michel Fortin michel.fortin michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 04:02 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:

 Also, make sure you have a published lexicon for translated terms every
 one can base upon.
+1 Here is mine: http://ddili.org/sozluk.html Ali
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 08/11/13 21:21, "Théo.B" <munrek gmx.com>" puremagic.com wrote:
 My main goal is promoting and translating resources about the technology (
 library reference, tutorials, and maybe ali's book ? ), and maintain a great
 place to start for all the beginners in programming, and also a great exchange
 spot for more experienced programmers.

 What we need now is nice and motivated guys to help me building the resources
 and organizating about future translations. If you speak french you are of
 course welcome to come ; even just exchanging on the forum would be a great
help
 for us.
Si j'ai bien compris, il existe un deuxième génération du logiciel des forums et du site web de dlang.org, qui n'a jamais reçu une vrai épreuve. Ça sera peut-être une bonne opportunité de réanimer le projet, plutôt qu'utiliser les forums en PHP ... ? (If I understand right, there's a second-generation version of the dlang.org website and forum software that has never actually been put into action. Perhaps this would be a good opportunity to try it out, rather than using PHP-based forum software?) Est-ce qu'il y a des outils qu'on peut utiliser pour faciliter le traduction des ressources qui existaient déjà en anglais, par exemple le DDoc de Phobos?
 Please excuse my awful english, this is not my native language ( well this is
 not a reason, I'm just bad ).
Tu parles l'anglais comme une indigène. C'est à nous anglophones de nous excuser pour le français terrible! ;-)
Nov 09 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?IlRow6lv?= B" <munrek gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 12:23:53 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:
 Si j'ai bien compris, il existe un deuxième génération du 
 logiciel des forums et du site web de dlang.org, qui n'a jamais 
 reçu une vrai épreuve.  Ça sera peut-être une bonne opportunité 
 de réanimer le projet, plutôt qu'utiliser les forums en PHP ... 
 ?

 (If I understand right, there's a second-generation version of 
 the dlang.org website and forum software that has never 
 actually been put into action. Perhaps this would be a good 
 opportunity to try it out, rather than using PHP-based forum 
 software?)
Didn't know.
 Tu parles l'anglais comme une indigène.  C'est à nous 
 anglophones de nous excuser pour le français terrible! ;-)
I'm not sure what do you mean :'/
Nov 09 2013
parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 14:29, "Théo.B" <munrek gmx.com>" puremagic.com wrote:
 Tu parles l'anglais comme une indigène.  C'est à nous anglophones de nous
 excuser pour le français terrible! ;-)
I'm not sure what do you mean :'/
My point in a nutshell. :-)
Nov 09 2013
parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/09/2013 05:41 AM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
 On 09/11/13 14:29, "Théo.B" <munrek gmx.com>" puremagic.com wrote:
 Tu parles l'anglais comme une indigène.  C'est à nous anglophones de
 nous
 excuser pour le français terrible! ;-)
I'm not sure what do you mean :'/
My point in a nutshell. :-)
Prizeless! ;) Ali
Nov 10 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 07:33, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 I'm not French, but I lived in France and the French-speaking part of
 Switerzland for two years, so I'm fairly fluent (though it's been about 10
 years now, so I'm sure that my French is getting worse).
Really, where? I lived in Fribourg for several years at about the same time ...
Nov 09 2013
parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 09.11.2013 13:25, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:
 On 09/11/13 07:33, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 I'm not French, but I lived in France and the French-speaking part of
 Switerzland for two years, so I'm fairly fluent (though it's been
 about 10
 years now, so I'm sure that my French is getting worse).
Really, where? I lived in Fribourg for several years at about the same time ...
Me too! January 2003 - December 2004 in Geneva. :)
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, November 09, 2013 13:25:36 Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
 On 09/11/13 07:33, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 I'm not French, but I lived in France and the French-speaking part =
of
 Switerzland for two years, so I'm fairly fluent (though it's been a=
bout 10
 years now, so I'm sure that my French is getting worse).
=20 Really, where? I lived in Fribourg for several years at about the sa=
me time
 ...
I was a missionary, and we got moved around few months, so it was sever= al=20 places, though not Fribourg. However, I think that I did end up visitin= g there=20 for a day at one point. Actually, IIRC, it was there that I saw someone= =20 carrying a bag that said H=E2=82=82Eau, which I found quite funny, but = then again I=20 really like puns. Anyway, from around December 2001 to October 2003, I = lived=20 in Annecy, France Valence, France Vevey, Switzerland Lausanne, Switzerland Montb=C3=A9liard, France Dijon, France La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland You know, it always feels funny to see or type Switzerland, because I'm= so=20 used to Suisse (which is also easier to remember how to spell). - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 09/11/13 19:32, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 You know, it always feels funny to see or type Switzerland, because I'm so
 used to Suisse (which is also easier to remember how to spell).
Yea, I often get the same feeling, though more often with city names than countries (it's something to do with how much one has used one name compared to others). I don't know what denomination your missionary work was on behalf of, but I do remember there being a noticeable US missionary presence during that time in Fribourg. So even if we never overlapped, I may have met some of your colleagues :-)
Nov 10 2013